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View Full Version : what supplement or drug increased REM sleep?



xxterxx
03-25-2009, 02:04 PM
is there any supp or drug that increases REM sleep?

REM sleep is where most of the recovery happens right? correct me if im wrong...

JamesWebb
03-26-2009, 07:40 PM
Lean dreams by ALRI or just a basic ZMA has helped me out

GetLean
03-26-2009, 09:39 PM
Look into PowerFULL by USPLabs, you sleep like a baby, and wake up refreshed.

ellocogrande
03-26-2009, 09:44 PM
Lunesta.........It doesn't make you go to sleep faster it just helps you reach the REM state a lot quicker when you DO go to sleep.

militantmuscle
03-27-2009, 10:26 AM
Ketotifen, but not by a direct pathway.

GirlyMuscle
03-27-2009, 10:32 AM
Somalyze works great for me. But it's not just a sleep aid. It's suppoed to do the usnic acid uncoupling thing to aid in fat loss. I believe it's the gaba in it that makes it work as a sleep aid. Since Somalyze is pricey for a sleep aid maybe just get some straight GABA.

Sledge
03-27-2009, 10:45 AM
I use gaba and sleep like a baby on the stuff. And it's a restfull nights sleep not like with other stuff that leaves me with a hungover feeling.

NPCKnight
03-27-2009, 11:52 AM
how much GABA?

xxterxx
04-27-2009, 10:45 PM
im taking 1500mg of GABA per night now... restful sleep...feel fresh when i wake up....

the other day when i got jet lag... top it off with 6mg of melatonin.. works wonders

SoxFan11
04-27-2009, 11:50 PM
how much GABA?

It's dirt cheap. I think TP has it for $2.99/ 100 grams.

freak
04-27-2009, 11:59 PM
you cant control the amount of REM sleep you have through nutrition. the only way to manipulate REM sleep is to deprive yourself of REM sleep, then when you are allowed to reach REM sleep after the deprivation you will stay in it longer. seems like people in here are either correlating a good night sleep with increased REM sleep or arent answering the question.

MikeS
04-28-2009, 06:12 AM
GABA works great. Melatonin too but if you take 3mg as most people sell you'll likely feel hungover the next day...I found splitting the tabs into quarters works great!

Both are cheap too.

Frosty
04-28-2009, 10:01 AM
Melatonin cream is the best, but I have also found chewing up 1 mg melatonin 30-45 mins before bed, then taking 2 1mg time release right before I hit the sack. It should be cautioned that too much melatonin isn't good. Some people do best actually on less than 1mg, and others use 3mg and sometimes more with good results. For me personally, if I take too much I will wake up frequently from dreams being too vivid, and I will also wake up groggy. 6mg is a sure way for me to wake up tons of times from freaky dreams.

GABA is good...1.5g is good. 2g is starting to push it and I'm bordering on it being excitatory for me.

Magnesium levels might be suspect if sleep quality is poor (and practically for anyone training hard). Restoring magnesium requires 3 things:

1. adequate stomach acid levels. Betaine HCl test will determine if low, and how much betaine HCl to correct. Without adequate stomach acid it's difficult to absorb minerals. Also interesting to note that poor digestion can reduce sleep quality.

2. Good chelated forms of magnesium. Citrate is the best cheapest form you can buy in bulk powder. Taurinate, orotate, glycinate, aspartate, and malate as also excellent forms that target different tissues preferentially. NO MAGNESIUM OXIDE.

3. Good vitamin A and D intake. Without good A and D it's difficult for the body to properly utilize mineral intake. The RDA is not enough for A and D, just like with all the other vitamins and minerals. Cod liver oil as your fish oil source, especially in winter months is a great way to get in A and D plus your fish oil in one shot. Vitamins A and D have so many other benefits to the weight lifter.

It's also important to note that magnesium deficiency can be pretty bad in people with high training volume, especially if you've been doing it for many years and not supplementing with quality magnesium. It can take many months to correct magnesium levels, and doses needed can be quite higher than 400-500mg you find in ZMA formulas for a single dose. Zinc levels may also require over 200mg a day for up to 2 months depending on level of deficiency from optimal levels. ZMA might be a good tool for maintaining zinc and magnesium levels, but I feel a single nightly dose to be too little for bringing back up low zinc and magnesium levels.

enrage
04-28-2009, 10:33 AM
the magnesium in zma makes the pineal gland secrete more DMT. DMT results in having really vivid dreams

Frosty
04-28-2009, 10:37 AM
If you want really vivid dreams try adding 600-1,000mg of B6, 6mg or more melatonin, and a source of choline before bed :) Not that I recommend it...those dreams are nuts, and if they're not so nice they're waaay too vivid and real...I get scared lol.

Tim1985
04-28-2009, 05:15 PM
Look into PowerFULL by USPLabs, you sleep like a baby, and wake up refreshed.
You can buy the bulk powder version for real cheap instead of paying for the fancy bottle. http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/uspowders/bulk-1-carboxy-2-amino-3-pyrobenzol-3-4-diol-100-grams.html

Razer
04-30-2009, 05:14 AM
The guys at Ultimate Nutrition say Gaba aids in the release of GH especially after exercise. They also mention to take 45 or more minutes before sleep. It seems like a good additive to my supplement closet!

xxterxx
04-30-2009, 11:10 AM
Melatonin cream is the best, but I have also found chewing up 1 mg melatonin 30-45 mins before bed, then taking 2 1mg time release right before I hit the sack. It should be cautioned that too much melatonin isn't good. Some people do best actually on less than 1mg, and others use 3mg and sometimes more with good results. For me personally, if I take too much I will wake up frequently from dreams being too vivid, and I will also wake up groggy. 6mg is a sure way for me to wake up tons of times from freaky dreams.

GABA is good...1.5g is good. 2g is starting to push it and I'm bordering on it being excitatory for me.

Magnesium levels might be suspect if sleep quality is poor (and practically for anyone training hard). Restoring magnesium requires 3 things:

1. adequate stomach acid levels. Betaine HCl test will determine if low, and how much betaine HCl to correct. Without adequate stomach acid it's difficult to absorb minerals. Also interesting to note that poor digestion can reduce sleep quality.

2. Good chelated forms of magnesium. Citrate is the best cheapest form you can buy in bulk powder. Taurinate, orotate, glycinate, aspartate, and malate as also excellent forms that target different tissues preferentially. NO MAGNESIUM OXIDE.

3. Good vitamin A and D intake. Without good A and D it's difficult for the body to properly utilize mineral intake. The RDA is not enough for A and D, just like with all the other vitamins and minerals. Cod liver oil as your fish oil source, especially in winter months is a great way to get in A and D plus your fish oil in one shot. Vitamins A and D have so many other benefits to the weight lifter.

It's also important to note that magnesium deficiency can be pretty bad in people with high training volume, especially if you've been doing it for many years and not supplementing with quality magnesium. It can take many months to correct magnesium levels, and doses needed can be quite higher than 400-500mg you find in ZMA formulas for a single dose. Zinc levels may also require over 200mg a day for up to 2 months depending on level of deficiency from optimal levels. ZMA might be a good tool for maintaining zinc and magnesium levels, but I feel a single nightly dose to be too little for bringing back up low zinc and magnesium levels.



why not magnesium oxide?

i got a bottle of them right beside me now.. lol..

xxterxx
05-01-2009, 11:36 AM
got some champion nutrition sleep aid... works quite well to me...

Frosty
05-01-2009, 11:50 AM
why not magnesium oxide?

i got a bottle of them right beside me now.. lol..

Poorly absorbed and more likely to cause digestive distress and diarrhea because of that when you use higher doses to help restore magnesium status. Magnesium forms that end in "-ate" are best. Magnesium citrate is a good form that is cheap and you can buy in bulk powder form from the Now brand.

Admiral Johnson
05-02-2009, 01:37 AM
Ive tried gaba once before but I think I need to get some again

thomasbigdog
05-02-2009, 03:10 PM
has any body used 5 htp i am using 200 mg but not helping wondering if i should up the dose

Frosty
05-02-2009, 03:18 PM
has any body used 5 htp i am using 200 mg but not helping wondering if i should up the dose


I personally wouldn't go higher than that.

You have to be careful of band-aide solutions to problems. Why does your sleep suck? If it's because of low serotonin on a keto diet, then 5-HTP should solve that. Clearly there are other issues going on. It could be many many different things.

thomasbigdog
05-02-2009, 03:45 PM
I personally wouldn't go higher than that.

You have to be careful of band-aide solutions to problems. Why does your sleep suck? If it's because of low serotonin on a keto diet, then 5-HTP should solve that. Clearly there are other issues going on. It could be many many different things.

working 11 1/2 hours a day getting home 7 pm eating dinner watchng tv going to bed about 930 10 then tossing and turning until midnight or 1 am and getting back up at 5am don't want be on meds because i am a truck driver so that does not work for me can't afford the side effects i hear on tv looking to try the alri product when it come out to see if that works also thinking about going to get check out for hypothyroid

Frosty
05-02-2009, 03:55 PM
You could try 1-2g GABA. That may help calm you down to sleep. It's much more powerful for this than 5-HTP.

thomasbigdog
05-02-2009, 04:08 PM
You could try 1-2g GABA. That may help calm you down to sleep. It's much more powerful for this than 5-HTP.

thank you i will try that

Author L. Rea
05-02-2009, 10:45 PM
is there any supp or drug that increases REM sleep?

REM sleep is where most of the recovery happens right? correct me if im wrong...

Comatose...Very well

Frosty
05-02-2009, 10:46 PM
Comatose...Very well

Goddammit when it is going to be out?!?! lol

Can't wait.

natron
05-03-2009, 12:24 AM
try clonazepam, theanine 5-htp gabapentin and codeine

Lights out... for a week or so.

Seriously though, why arent you getting enough sleep???

Rick

Strikerrjones
05-03-2009, 06:01 PM
If you want really vivid dreams try adding 600-1,000mg of B6, 6mg or more melatonin, and a source of choline before bed :) Not that I recommend it...those dreams are nuts, and if they're not so nice they're waaay too vivid and real...I get scared lol.

Hmm...

Author L. Rea
05-04-2009, 12:39 AM
you cant control the amount of REM sleep you have through nutrition. the only way to manipulate REM sleep is to deprive yourself of REM sleep, then when you are allowed to reach REM sleep after the deprivation you will stay in it longer. seems like people in here are either correlating a good night sleep with increased REM sleep or arent answering the question.

Actually a few things can affect REM positively though I do have to agree with you that pure nutrition may not be an answer in itself. One key is GABA receptors though more studies need to be evaluated.

J Pharmacol Sci. (javascript:AL_get(this, 'jour', 'J Pharmacol Sci.');) 2009 Apr;109(4):518-24. Epub 2009 Apr 7.
The effect of baclofen on alterations in the sleep patterns induced by different stressors in rats.

Cui R (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Cui%20R%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Li B (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Li%20B%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Suemaru K (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Suemaru%20K%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Araki H (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Araki%20H%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus).
Department of Clinical Pharmacology and Pharmacy, Brain Science, Ehime University Graduate School of Medicine, Japan.
We have previously reported that sleep patterns are significantly affected by both physical and psychological stress induced by a communication box; however, the mechanism by which stress alters sleep patterns was not established. In the present study, we investigated the role of gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA), acting through the GABA(B) receptor, on stress-induced changes in sleep patterns. Our results show that physical stress increased the total wakefulness time by increasing sleep latency and inhibiting both rapid eye movement (REM) and non rapid eye movement (NREM) sleep during a 6 h sleep-recording period. The GABA(B) agonist baclofen (20 pmol/2 mul) attenuated the effects of physical stress on sleep latency, total wakefulness, and NREM sleep, but not total REM sleep. In contrast, psychological stress enhanced total REM sleep and shortened REM sleep latency without altering other sleep patterns. The effect of psychological stress on total REM sleep was also reversed by baclofen. These results suggest that GABA via GABA(B) receptors may play a role in the regulation of specific sleep patterns by both physical and psychological stress.


Eur J Pharmacol. (javascript:AL_get(this, 'jour', 'Eur J Pharmacol.');) 2009 Apr 18.
IL-6-trans-signalling increases rapid-eye-movement sleep in rats.

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Biochemisches Institut, Christian-Albrechts-Universität zu Kiel, Olshausenstrasse 40, D-24098, Kiel, Germany.
Interleukin 6 (IL-6), a cytokine of the gp130-signalling-family, plays an important role in immediate immunological functions, in metabolism and in the central nervous system. IL-6- signalling is mediated by classic-signalling via the membrane bound IL-6 receptor or by IL-6-trans-signalling via the soluble IL-6 receptor. Whereas the receptor subunit gp130 is ubiquitously expressed within the body, IL-6 receptor expression is restricted to distinct cell populations. Within the brain parenchyma the IL-6 receptor is sparsely expressed, and therefore the brain is mostly dependent on IL-6-trans-signalling in its reponse to IL-6. Recently we have shown that IL-6-trans-signalling but not classic-signalling plays a pivotal role in the establishment and maintenance of chronic inflammation and cancer, whereas its role in sleep regulation has not been studied so far. We reasoned that the IL-6-trans-signalling mimetic Hyper-IL-6 which in contrast to IL-6 alone can activate almost all cells of the brain might have a profound effect on sleep regulation and performed sleep recordings with rats injected with recombinant Hyper-IL-6. In the present study, the i.c.v. administration of the designer cytokine Hyper-IL-6 into rats at dark onset increased the amount of rapid-eye-movement sleep (REM sleep) but did not affect non-rapid-eye-movement sleep (non-REM sleep). Our data define a new role of IL-6-trans-signalling in sleep regulation.

Psychopharmacology (Berl). (javascript:AL_get(this, 'jour', 'Psychopharmacology (Berl).');) 2009 Apr 16.

Influence of the novel antidepressant and melatonin agonist/serotonin2C receptor antagonist, agomelatine, on the rat sleep-wake cycle architecture.

Descamps A (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Descamps%20A%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Rousset C (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Rousset%20C%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Millan M (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Millan%20M%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Spedding M (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Spedding%20M%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Delagrange P (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Delagrange%20P%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Cespuglio R (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Cespuglio%20R%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus).
Claude Bernard University, Lyon, EA4170, France, [email protected].
RATIONALE: The novel antidepressant, agomelatine, behaves as an agonist at melatonin MT(1) and MT(2) receptors and as an antagonist at serotonin (5-HT)(2C) receptors. In animal models and clinical trials, agomelatine displays antidepressant properties and re-synchronizes disrupted circadian rhythms. OBJECTIVES: The objectives of this study were to compare the influence of agomelatine upon sleep-wake states to the selective melatonin agonists, melatonin and ramelteon, and to the selective 5-HT(2C) receptor antagonist, S32006. METHODS: Rats were administered with vehicle, agomelatine, ramelteon, melatonin, or S32006, at the onset of either dark or light periods. Polygraphic recordings were performed and changes determined over 24 h, i.e., number and duration of sleep-wake episodes, latencies to rapid eye movement (REM) and slow-wave (SWS) sleep, power band spectra of the electroencephalogram (EEG), and circadian changes. RESULTS: Administered at light phase onset, no changes were induced by agomelatine. In contrast, administered shortly before dark phase, agomelatine (10 and 40 mg/kg, per os) enhanced duration of REM and SWS sleep and decreased wake state for 3 h. Melatonin (10 mg/kg, per os) induced a transient enhancement in REM sleep followed by a reduction in REM and SWS sleep and an increase in waking. Ramelteon (10 mg/kg, per os) provoked a transient increase in REM sleep. Finally, S32006 (10 mg/kg, intraperitoneally), administered at dark phase onset, mimicked the increased SWS provoked by agomelatine, yet diminished REM sleep. CONCLUSIONS: Agomelatine possesses a distinctive EEG profile compared with melatonin, ramelteon, and S32006, possibly reflecting co-joint agonist and antagonist properties at MT(1)/MT(2) and 5-HT(2C) receptors, respectively.

natron
05-04-2009, 01:27 AM
Why don't you just include Gabapentin in your supplement?