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Allifit
03-26-2009, 04:34 PM
I don't get full ANYWHERE in my offseason I can't handle EXCEPT I seem to get water retentive in my lower abs....and it creates this poochy look which I cannot stand....

I think perhaps it's just my genetics that causes water retention there but does ANYONE have any suggestions as to how to manage/elimate this via diet or training etc?

Suzy Brown
03-26-2009, 05:10 PM
YES uggg... I wish I knew how to get rid of it (lipo!!!). Its like I have half a twinkie just below my belly button, like a finger long & 2 fingers wide... I hate that frikin twinkie!!!!!

And God forbid I'm not watching my posture and that thing sticks out over my waistband. I feel like such a cow... totally obese and yet at 13% BF....

tribal
03-26-2009, 05:45 PM
I don't get full ANYWHERE in my offseason I can't handle EXCEPT I seem to get water retentive in my lower abs....and it creates this poochy look which I cannot stand....

I think perhaps it's just my genetics that causes water retention there but does ANYONE have any suggestions as to how to manage/elimate this via diet or training etc?
it aint only you, guys have that garbage to :wavey:

beau
03-26-2009, 06:06 PM
last area of fat to go on my body during cutting is the lower ab/back fat....its painfully hard to get rid of

tammyp
03-26-2009, 06:13 PM
i personally think anti estrogens cause this. i used to hold in my butt..now its my tummy..and so many girls i know have the same issue. i have lines in my butt year round...but abs are the 1st to go.

Allifit
03-26-2009, 08:20 PM
i personally think anti estrogens cause this. i used to hold in my butt..now its my tummy..and so many girls i know have the same issue. i have lines in my butt year round...but abs are the 1st to go.
not to sound naive tammy but by anti estrogens you mean....? cause I'm not taking anything...:confused:

Ondrea
03-26-2009, 10:17 PM
its weird. i get super dry in my abs so early on when i diet...roadmap vascularity all over my abs and even throughout the lower abs starting at 6 wks out. abs r the first thing to look good on me. YET i hold so much water and bloat in my lower abs during offseason. i could see if they were the last thing to get cut up, but they aren't. i hate it! some days when i stand sideways, i feel i look pregnant! this never used to be a problem. i do think the use of anti estrogens can make this happen. have you ever used any?

and im not constipated either. i eat tons of fiber and go regularly. so i know im not backed up. yet its not fat either, bc i dont hold my fat there. its all in my ass and quads. i can still feel two little veins on my lower abs...even now, with my lower stomach area looking pregnant some days. from the front i look fine, no rolls and you can see my ab lines still...but from the side...it just sticks out!

i am exaggerating..i dont look pregnant lol...but it is bad right now imo. its definitly not flat!

oh. i just read you are not on anything. but were you? its only been a couple wks since your show. could it be rebound water weight? or do you have this all the time in offseason?

tammyp
03-27-2009, 05:34 AM
do you take anti estrogens for a show? that is what i mean. once you take them, it seems the fat distrobution changes.

andrea...same here. what gives?

Allifit
03-27-2009, 07:45 AM
its weird. i get super dry in my abs so early on when i diet...roadmap vascularity all over my abs and even throughout the lower abs starting at 6 wks out. abs r the first thing to look good on me. YET i hold so much water and bloat in my lower abs during offseason. i could see if they were the last thing to get cut up, but they aren't. i hate it! some days when i stand sideways, i feel i look pregnant! this never used to be a problem. i do think the use of anti estrogens can make this happen. have you ever used any?

and im not constipated either. i eat tons of fiber and go regularly. so i know im not backed up. yet its not fat either, bc i dont hold my fat there. its all in my ass and quads. i can still feel two little veins on my lower abs...even now, with my lower stomach area looking pregnant some days. from the front i look fine, no rolls and you can see my ab lines still...but from the side...it just sticks out!

i am exaggerating..i dont look pregnant lol...but it is bad right now imo. its definitly not flat!

oh. i just read you are not on anything. but were you? its only been a couple wks since your show. could it be rebound water weight? or do you have this all the time in offseason?

Maybe thats it... I dont know.... but even if it was anti estrogens I'm not on a thing now so how do I go about regulating this crap cause its honestly making me LOONEY!!!! lol.

I think some of it might be water retention but honestly it can't ALL be. It's not fat because like you Andrea I still have VEINS in my lower abdominals/pelvic region. This is just driving me nuts and I can't stand it lol. I'm about to down a whole bottle of Xpel and pee myself senseless... haha but it looks horrible....

GRRRRRRRRR

Allifit
03-27-2009, 07:47 AM
do you take anti estrogens for a show? that is what i mean. once you take them, it seems the fat distrobution changes.

andrea...same here. what gives?
I wonder if I should pop this question into a Q&A with Colette or Sassy or something since it may be drug/estrogen related...

sassy69
03-27-2009, 12:03 PM
Anti-estrogens is sort of a misnomer, but they consist of:

- aromatase inhibitors (AIs)like arimidex, aromason, femara - work to block the conversion of testosterone to estrogen. Sources of convertable testosterone / androgens are your adrenal glands and exogenous testosterone, e.g. deca, test.

- nolvadex - a selective estrogen receptor modulator (SERM) that works to fake out the estrogen receptors to essentially cut off the whole (ovarian) estrogen process.

I think what Tammy is saying is that when you do start using things to manipulate your hormone profile you can change other things downstream - for ex, you grow up w/ a certain balance of estrogen / progrest / testosterone. This determines how you carry your muscle mass and how you tend to deposit / hold bodyfat. So when you throw in an "estrogen blocker" like nolvadex (which operates on your ovarian estrogen & doens't require use of AAS to be effective) you're changing your hormone profile by reducing the regular amoung of estrogen in action promoting fat. That's how you are able to lower the impact of fat depositing around the middle & hips /thighs. NO, this is NOT a fat-reducing protocol for "maintenance" - it is recommended to only run this for 8 weeks or less for a specific purpose like a competition date, and then you expect to come off, rebound a little and then settle back into "normal maintenance".

Alli, you're still very recently post-show right? I'd expect a little rebound and water retention as you gain back some bodyfat anyway. Is this more of what you're talking about? Or just in general. I think "off season", after you've competed for a while, will carry some of the effects of post show rebound due to the stresses fo changing yourbody composition so dramatically. I don't have any studies to show this but I can't imagine there isn't some sort of effect from repeated making those extreme changes in your body.

An article I've often referenced for post show rebound is:

This would be an interesting topic for Leigh to give some insight on.


Post-Competition Perils: Hyperphagia, Adipose Overshoot, & Dysphoria
by
J.D. Haltigan


It is common for bodybuilders and physique competitors (note from Sassy69: not just AAS users & not just BB competitors) to engage in a period of dysregulated behavior characterized by repetitive, uncontrollable hyperphagia and bingeing in the days immediately subsequent to competition or to their lowest achieved adipostatic level. While the eating behavior is by and large the central component of this ‘post-competition syndrome’, it is part of a larger phenotype which includes both ‘bodyfat overshoot’ (Dulloo et al., 1997) and a general dysphoria characterized by a multiplex of feeling/behavioral states including emotional and/or mental discomfort, restlessness, malaise, depression, and sleep fractionation.

Extending my work on dynamical systems (and more generally adaptation at lowered adipostatic states), this article makes a specific contribution to discussing post-competition issues. It highlights a subtle paradox, in that the worst symptoms of severely reduced adipostatic states are not necessarily present during such a time, but rather on the slippery slope out of such a state.

It can be argued that most of the bodybuilding community, whilst aware of the symptoms noted above during repeated competition cycles, are unaware that they are in fact physiologically rooted adaptive processes (from a purely physiological standpoint). In addition, the claim is advanced here that training and supplementation post-competition may be even more important than training pre-competition, since it is during this post-competition period that significant declines in physique and mental resilience occur beyond levels established before pre-competition preparation was fully set in motion.

Originally noted by Keys et al. (1950) in the infamous Minnesota Starvation experiment and subsequently corroborated by the Dulloo lab in a number of papers that re-analyzed the original Minnesota data; there was a marked tendency for individuals who underwent the starvation period (or a protracted period of hypoenergetic caloric intake) to engage in voracious hyperphagia and demonstrate significant body fat gain following release from the starvation requirements. Indeed, because the body-fat gain following starvation exceeded the absolute adipostatic levels prior to the deficit (starvation) period, Key’s et al. (1950) termed the phenomenon ‘post-starvation obesity,’ while the Dulloo group (Dulloo, et al., 1997) termed the phenomenon “post-starvation hyperphagia and body-fat overshoot.”

If we consider the bodybuilder or fitness enthusiast’s ‘pre-contest’ dieting akin to that of the ‘starvation period’ of Key’s et al. (albeit with some notable dissimilarities including resistance training and extensive supplementation use), we can begin to understand the ‘post-contest’ period, and the normative metabolic and behavioral-psychological reactions that often cause great distress for the passionate bodybuilder (natural or not) or fitness enthusiast.

An account retold from one of Keys’ original participants in the Minnesota experiment reflect what has been related to me time and again in numerous private messages; and as I have also observed in various individuals who I have trained with (both male and female), and echo reports of ‘post-competition binges’:

Although they were warned to be careful not to overeat on d 1 [following the experiment], they were free to eat as they wished. H.S. remembered being taken to the hospital to have his stomach pumped because he,“just simply overdid” (Kalm & Semba, 1997, p.1351).

As a group, the Minnesota subjects as well as others who have undergone significant body weight reductions during extended periods of energetic deficit (cf. St. Pierre et al., 1996), show persistence in both appetite and hyperphagia long after refeeding commences. This combination of both increased appetite and subsequent hyperphagia was termed ‘integrated hyperphagia’ by Dulloo et al. (1997). Once again, persistence in binge behavior and the associated mental dysphoria with losing the contest physique is a common phenotype of bodybuilders and fitness (figure) competitors. One such person indicated to me they put on substantial fat (past pre-competition prep) following competition but also suffered from notable socioemotional disturbances, including, but not limited to, depression and social anxiety; which ultimately lead to the inability to maintain a romantic relationship.

Taken together, the elegant work of Keys, Dulloo and colleagues, should serve the training community in the sense that following bouts of contest dieting, counterregulatory processes will soon ensue, leading to behavior which can seriously threaten maintenance of even pre-competition dieting conditioning levels. As such, the post-competition period becomes a very critical time when, as I argue, training and supplementation usage must be dialed in. Before I offer a few brief, flexible recommendations, there are a few extremely important details that must be noted with regard to the re-analysis of the Minnesota starvation data by the Dulloo group.

In re-analyzing the Minnesota starvation data, Dulloo’s group found at least two important variables in the characterization of post-starvation integrated hyperphagia. The first being that even in spite of increased dietary induced thermogenesis (DIT) - due to the sympathomimetic actions of excessive carbohydrate loading (i.e., bingeing) - there remains a specific metabolic component favoring fat storage (1990). Thus, even in the presence of increased DIT (due to metabolic normalization as weight is gained), adipose tissue can be laid down simultaneously. Dulloo and Girardier (1990) noted that the metabolic component represented a net 15% reduction in energy expenditure during refeeding.

Dulloo (1997) further notes that the phenomenon of fat increase occurring more rapidly than that of active tissues has been noted since the “turn of the century in adults recovering body weight after diseases or famines” (p. 30), and cites both Jamin & Muller (1931) and Kornfeld & Schuller (1931). While a more comprehensive overview of their models, including that of the P-ratio (Dulloo & Jacquet, 1999) are outside the scope of this article, the key point of the foregoing discussion is that fat overshooting is in large part determined by delayed protein repletion (loss of lean-tissue), which in turn results from a suppression of thermogenesis favoring the ‘replenishment’ of adipose reserves (Dulloo, 1997).

The second variable involves the predictive ability of both adipose and lean tissue loss to promote post-starvation integrated hyperphagia. In an elegant set of regressions, Dulloo et al., (1997) showed that while adipose loss was the strongest predictor of integrated hyperphagia, lean tissue loss also added unique variance (albeit of small magnitude). These correlations were still present even after controlling for degree of prior energy deficit.

Considering this, it is quite clear that the post-competition phenomenon of integrated hyperphagia is a relatively ubiquitous phenomenon among those who have lost substantial body mass. However, the component of mental dysphoria is an addition this author has contributed independently (as a result of both personal and vicarious experience), and we can conceptualize both integrated hyperphagia and mental dysphoria as the ‘post-competition syndrome’. I have written previously on psychoneuroendocrinological contributions to the post-competition phenotype (cf. Adipose Reduction and Bodyfat Setpoint: A Dev. Reg. Model) and will elaborate on this component of the post-competition syndrome in future work. Suffice it to say that included in the dysphoric component are depression, restlessness, fatigue, sleeplessness, and most importantly, social withdrawal. So, from a training standpoint, how can the trainee deal with the ‘post-competition syndrome’?

It would seem that a simple understanding of the post-competition period, as presented here, will go a long way to treating this period of training more appropriately. More specifically there are at least four specific areas where trainees and competitors can directly address the ‘post-competition syndrome’:

1) Psychological: While acute bingeing post-competition is of the involuntary subtype, it is argued that subsequent bingeing (still part of the integrated hyperphagia matrix) is more voluntary in nature and psychologically triggered. Psychological triggers are more likely to become effective at triggering binge patterns in light of the underlying post-starvation vulnerability (cf. Adipose Reduction and Bodyfat Setpoint: A Dev. Reg. Model). In addition, individual differences in affect regulation (socioemotional adaptation, attachment) may also play a key role (for comparative evidence see Hancock, Menard, & Olmstead, 2005). Awareness of psychological cues that trigger bingeing and insuring that you take proactive steps to re-engage - in adaptive, positive social situations (e.g., going out, interacting with others) - may short-circuit the feed-forward loop of ‘social isolation-bingeing’.

2) Training: A least two prominent considerations come to mind. First, and of obvious import; the more lean mass retained during the dieting period, the more potential for reductions (albeit subtle) in the experience of integrated hyperphagia. It would seem that a strong focus on time under tension (TUT) should be a core component of both the pre and post competition periods. Second, cardio should be maintained or even increased during the post-competition period to both compensate for involuntary bingeing as well as to perhaps inhibit the metabolic component that appears designed to facilitate fat storage (a more detailed discussion will be presented in a separate paper). Finally, an immediate change in training protocol is advised, as this will ‘freshen’ up the routine and prevent needless iterations of mental fatigue of having to perform the same routine - which can lead to an avoidance of the gym (isolation) and subsequent bingeing as discussed above.

3) ‘Binge’ Nutrition: It may be profitable to create a ‘fixed’ binge pattern such that, even during times of involuntary binges, there are only certain foodstuffs that you are allowed (provided they enable the quiescence of the integrated hyperphagia and psychological craving). For example, during times of integrated hyperphagia, this author has been able to fix his foodstuffs, allowing fat-free frozen yogurt and specifically (only) butter popped corn cakes (which contain no HFCS). This may be one factor that has attenuated the consequence of integrated hyperphagia. Often we hear of binges on candy, chocolate, pizza and other calorie dense high-fat, high-carbohydrate foods, which most certainly will elevate the energy intake.

4) Thermogenic Supplementation: A few brief, non-exhaustive comments here. Thermogenic supplementation, such as the EC(A) stack (and others) should be continued, possibly increased during this phase (consider 40mg ephedrine/day rather than 20mg). The reasoning is the same mentioned above in regards to cardio - the potential to short-circuit the metabolic component favoring fat storage in spite of increased DIT. Of course, abuse of any thermogenic during the dieting phase will reduce any gains one might make by increasing the dosage during the post-competition phase. That said much of the diet phase can proceed without the use of thermogenic aids, simply by maintaining a modest caloric deficit; restricting intake and increased energy expenditure.

While I am torn on advocating the use of nicotine in this context, I will indicate that its continued usage through both dieting and post-rebound phases may exert favorable body composition changes and maintenance. One study (Schwid, Hirvonen, & Keesey, 1992), albeit in rats, is particularly relevant as it was framed in a regulatory perspective and it showed that nicotine-reated rats were able to reduce their setpoint; but also that they showed the same hyperphagic phenotype as control rats when they were starved beyond this new ‘setpoint.’ However, rather than binge back up to control levels of absolute fat, these rats overshot their new ‘reduced setpoint’ briefly, eventually returning to this new ‘setpoint’ which was lower than their control (pre-nicotine) values. This provides comparative evidence for the hyperphagic phenotype in humans as well as the energy conserving adjustments both during food restriction which spill over into the refeeding period. I would be remiss not to indicate that one must obviously reflect on the method of nicotine administration as well as the noted risks to its usage.

Here I have discussed the normative phenomenon of integrated hyperphagia observed in individuals who have experienced significant and extended periods of caloric deficit resulting in a substantial loss of bodyweight. I then applied this portrait to that of the body-builder or figure competitor following the competition period. I then offered more specific details regarding variability in integrated hyperphagia and created a new term, specific to this broad sport, called the ‘post-competition syndrome.’ Finally, I have offered some brief recommendations regarding training, hyperphagic nutrition, and post-competition thermogenic supplementation. I have intentionally made an attempt to keep this contribution less ‘academic’ in tone while still preserving a highly academic backdrop (i.e., Keys et al., and Dulloo et al.). For the more scientifically inclined, specific discussions of the material within will continue both in future articles as well as in the dynamical thread over at Avant where relevant mechanisms will be more fully elucidated and theorized.

References
References 1. Dulloo, A. G. (1997). Human pattern of food intake and fuel-partitioning during weight recovery after starvation: A theory of autoregulation of body composition. Proceedings of the Nutrition Society, 56, 25-40.

2. Dulloo, A. G., & Girardier, L. (1990). Adaptive changes in energy expenditure during refeeding following low-calorie intake: Evidence for a specific metabolic component favoring fat storage. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 52, 415-420.

3. Dulloo, A. G., & Jacquet, J. (2001). An adipose-specific control of thermogenesis in body weight regulation. International Journal of Obesity, 25, S22-S29.

4. Dulloo, A. G., & Jacquet, J. (1999). The control of partitioning between protein and fat during human starvation: Its internal determinants and biological significance. British Journal of Nutrition, 82, 339-356.

5. Dulloo, A. G., Jacquet, J., & Girardier, L. (1997). Post-starvation hyperphagia and body fat overshooting in humans: A role for feedback signals from lean and fat tissues. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 65, 717-723.

6. Dulloo, A. G., Jacquet, J., & Girardier, L. (1996). Autoregulation of body composition during weight recovery in human: The Minnesota experiment revisited. International Journal of Obesity, 20, 393-405.

7. Hancock, S. D., Menard, J. L., & Olmstead, M. C. (2005). Variations in maternal care influence vulnerability to stress-induced binge eating in female rats. Physiology & Behavior, 85, 430-439.

8. Jamin, F. & Muller, E. (1931). Specific weight of the living man with clinical applications for recovery of body weight. Munchener Medizinishche Wochenshrift, 51, 349-362.

9. Kalm, L. M., & Semba, R. D. (2005). They starved so that others could be better fed: Remembering Ancel Keys and the Minnesota experiment. Journal of Nutrition, 135, 1347-1352.

10. Keys, A., Brozek, J., Henschel, A, Mickelson, O., & Taylor, H. L. (1950). The biology of human starvation: 2 volumes. Minneapolis: University of Minnesota Press.

11. Kornfeld, W. & Schuller, H. (1931). Pattern of lean tissue deposition in free-living children recovering from tuberculosis. Zeitschrift fur Kinder und Jugendpsychiatrie, 51, 349-362.

12. Schwid, S. R., Hirvonen, M. D., & Keesey, R. E. (1992). Nicotine effects on body weight: A regulatory perspective. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 55, 878-84.

13. St. Pierre, S., Roy, B., & Tremblay, A. (1996). A case study on energy balance during an expedition through Greenland. International Journal of Obesity, 20, 493-495.

Allifit
03-28-2009, 09:46 AM
Alli, you're still very recently post-show right? I'd expect a little rebound and water retention as you gain back some bodyfat anyway. Is this more of what you're talking about? Or just in general. I think "off season", after you've competed for a while, will carry some of the effects of post show rebound due to the stresses fo changing yourbody composition so dramatically. I don't have any studies to show this but I can't imagine there isn't some sort of effect from repeated making those extreme changes in your body.



Yes it's been about 3 weeks since my show. I've just got noticably "bigger" and by bigger I mean more bloated..... I dont know like I said it oculd be a variety of things....pre menstrual, rebound etc... I just dont recall ever having this same specific issue before.

I've never taken nolvadex... I know I pmed you this..

I just am concerned because its making me feel incredibly insecure which is not common for me....

sassy69
04-03-2009, 07:02 PM
In a sense "Post Show Rebound" is the 4th stage of prep (after "Long Term Prep", "Short term Manipulation / Peak Week", "Show Day", "Post Show Rebound") - and its not going to be the same each time you compete because your body is changing each time you go thru it. Sometimes it feels like you can "train" your body to respond a certain way via targeted conditioning & dieting to reduce the rebound effect, and other times your body just goes bananas after the show, and not necessarly immediately after. But its like its trying to sort things out after the stress of the show, and occassionally going "OH NO YOU DID NOT JUST DO THAT TO ME" and producing some really uncomfortable rebound results.

Its no fun not understanding why your body is doing something so that can really mess w/ your mind. Especially when you've done the post show rebound thing before and generally know what to expect.

For ex, my last show in 2007, I came out of wonderfully. I was a bit watering on show day and managed to DROP 3.5 lbs after eating a big fat steak dinner & a small dessert with friends after the show. I was tighter still after a Mexican brunch the next day. No real big rebound or exhaustion or anything until the Wed afterwards when it happened to be "Donut Day" at work, which I hadn't touched for the previous 6 months. And this one time, I figured I'd earned the right to have part of a donut. By later that day and the subsequent 3 days, I went thru extreme hot & cold flashes where I'd by sweating one moment and shaking and shivering the next, all my joints started to ache and I was just miserable. We figured it was an estrogen rebound combined w/ a sugar rush from the friggen donut. Never expected that in a million years. I was reasonably ripped but neither depleted nor feeling like I'd done anything particularly extreme in this whole prep. But that little experience taught me that the body can be very sensitive and it will let you know when it doesnt' like something and is trying find equilibrium again. And it can be several weeks before it all settles in again.

How are you doing now?

figurebre
06-03-2009, 09:01 PM
Its water and genetics. I always have a kangaroo pouch too! lol..It sucks but I think I am coming to accept it. It isnt fat, hence the vascularity. And I feel that water/fat displacement changes from show to show.

The Big Sexy
06-03-2009, 09:03 PM
I don't get full ANYWHERE in my offseason I can't handle EXCEPT I seem to get water retentive in my lower abs....and it creates this poochy look which I cannot stand....

I think perhaps it's just my genetics that causes water retention there but does ANYONE have any suggestions as to how to manage/elimate this via diet or training etc?

I'm not a chick - but I tend to store fat there first/water.

Not sure how to eliminate it via diet or training, but there are other ways to help manipulate your water.

Jason Newman
06-20-2009, 10:10 AM
personally im with big sexy, i hole water there and for me and lots of people, we jsut arent insulin sensative, if i drop my carbs to 0 for the weekends i drop about 4lbs of water, and its from my abs, its like they come in over nights almost

BIGSNOR
06-26-2009, 05:03 AM
i'm the same way, a really easy way to make it go away for a few hours, when you train, use a belt or wrap of some sort and wrap it very tightly, and when your done,it will push all of that water out, where it goes...i dont know...but it will be gone until the next day. works for me, give it a shot. and lemme know if it works for you.