Creating the perfect PWO shake

[Frosty]

Okay guys I want this thread to be about how to make up a perfect PWO shake. I have some ideas, some new, some not, on what would make up a solid PWO shake. I'd love for people to share ideas so we can all learn. This format is to be the "ideal" so let's not get caught up in cost and budget at this time. People can take the ideal, prioritize, and budget from there.

[Frosty]

Carbs

For those over 10%, no carbs PWO.

For those under this amount, I like Poliquin's idea of

12-72 reps per workout: 0.6 g/Kg/LBM
73-200 reps per workout: 0.8 g/kg/LBM
200-360 reps per workout: 1.0 g/kg/LBM
360-450 reps per workout: 1.2 g/kg/LBM


For carb sources, I'm thinking 50/50 dextrose and maltodextrin. Vitargo seems good but I think it would be just ridiculously expensive when dex/malto works well for waaaay less money.

[Frosty]

For protein, I just like this:

25g Progenex Recovery
25g Progenex Growth


Aminos:
15g leucine
10g creatine
5g taurine

Some other considerations:
5g beta alanine
15g glutamine
2g carnitine (tartrate? not sure on form)
Maybe 1g GABA to relax

[Frosty]

This is a big section that I think is different from a lot of recommendations. Micronutrients. What better time to drive nutrients into cells than when they are super receptive and you have high insulin. Especially nutrients that increase insulin sensitivity like magnesium, vanadium, chromium.

First is 600mg sea salt/1L of water in the shake. The shake should be 10-12% solution for good absorption.

-1 or two full servings of a quality multivitamin, preferably capsules that you can empty.
-50,000-100,000 IU vitamin A from cod liver oil concentrate
-4,000-8,000 IU vitamin D from cod liver oil concentrate
-Magnesium (no oxide) - as much as you can take without bowel issues. Goal would be at least 600mg, and more if tolerated.
-1000mcg or maybe more of chromium polynicotinate
-maybe 5g of a good vanadium. Vanadyl sulfate might work, too, but I like the bis-glycinate form so far.
-3-5mg Biotin
-FSI VO2 Max supplement....phosphorous for ATP production
-Trace Minerals drops, 40 drops
-Maybe alkaline mineral drops to help akalanize you PWO.

[Frosty]

Other supplements:

-4 of Poliquin's Fennuplex. He uses it PWO with athletes to make sure carbs go in the right place.
-3 of Poliquin's Insulinomics....same reason as above but different mechanism.
-1-2g arachidonic acid (X-Factor). What better time to drive this anabolic fat into muscles where you'd want it for growth?
-Maybe 1-2g of TTA?

[Jason Newman]

wow that is a ton O' stuff for postworkout, i liek the carb per weight idea!
but the protein unless you are using them for calories i see 25g whey as ideal and then pre-load your post workout meal with the other 25g whey..... max anabolism is reached at 25g whey....

for that reason i dont see bcaa being beneficial.... if you want take 25gwhey post and 5g BCAA 30 min before the meal

def 5g of a good creatine post workout
also 2g beta alanine
a carnitine for the test absorption
no glutamine needed on top of protein add it with the bcaa before meal...

[Jason Newman]

where do you lift frosty>?

[Frosty]

wow that is a ton O' stuff for postworkout, i liek the carb per weight idea!
but the protein unless you are using them for calories i see 25g whey as ideal and then pre-load your post workout meal with the other 25g whey..... max anabolism is reached at 25g whey....

for that reason i dont see bcaa being beneficial.... if you want take 25gwhey post and 5g BCAA 30 min before the meal

def 5g of a good creatine post workout
also 2g beta alanine
a carnitine for the test absorption
no glutamine needed on top of protein add it with the bcaa before meal...

You think the 25g Recovery plus 25g Growth is excessive? I thought Connely said you could take the two together and get good benefits?

I got the BCAA thing from Poliquin. The 15g leucine PWO I thought would "super charge" the Progenex by increasing the signaling for protein synthesis.

[Jason Newman]

im pretty sure connely has plenty of anabolism in the fractions he chose.

save the leucine for throughout the day layne and articles are saying that 2.5g leucine is max anabolism, so whey at 10% leucine is maxed out at 25g..... but connely's stuff is different ya know its not normal protein

[Jason Newman]

i was saying for the others that dont have progenex

[Frosty]

Hmm, do you happen to remember where you got that info from? Was that max leucine dose PWO or from a normal meal?

[Jason Newman]

sadly its part of the MD audio Team MD stuff... it was the max dose in general terms they gave it to regular people alone

[Frosty]

I just wonder with training. I've heard I think from Layne Norton about 5g with meals. I know Poliquin and others have used high doses of BCAAs during workout and also on off days....like 40g. That's where i got the BCAA thing from. I've been using BCAAs right before my workout for years now...I like them.

[Jason Newman]

he didnt say that 5 was bad just not necessary, take ur 15g and spread it over 3 meals, 5g before each of them or maybe save some for when u wake up at night....

[Frosty]

I like the idea of the alkaline mineral drops. I know Poliquin talks about using greens powder PWO to help alkalanize which he says will put you in a more anabolic state. Greens powders would taste like ass in a shake so alkaline mineral drops sound like a nice way to get a similar result.

[Frosty]

I think the idea of driving micronutrients into the muscle cells is an under-appreciated idea. Chromium, vanadium, and especially magnesium are important for insulin sensitivity. Seems like a great idea to use insulin to drive these nutrients into the muscle cells. The multi would have to have good forms...I found one I really like....a full dose of vitamins and minerals driven into the cells via high insulin and receptive muscle tissue sounds great for recovery and well functioning muscle cells. I also think vitamin A from animal sources as well as vitamin D are under-appreciated. Vitamin A is so important and so lacking in our diets...especially when high protein diets tend to deplete vitamin A.

[Jason Newman]

true what multi do you like?

[NPCKnight]

LOL @ the Sacramento love fest going on. J/K guys...but you are overthinking things a bit. Your PWO shake wont be perfect anyways unless every other meal in your diet is perfected first. Also....the PWO shake has to have some key factors, I agree...but I believe the meal you have an hour or so later is just as important and needs to be set up correctly macronutrient wise.

[Legend]

Okay guys I want this thread to be about how to make up a perfect PWO shake. I have some ideas, some new, some not, on what would make up a solid PWO shake. I'd love for people to share ideas so we can all learn. This format is to be the "ideal" so let's not get caught up in cost and budget at this time.



For carb sources, I'm thinking 50/50 dextrose and maltodextrin. Vitargo seems good but I think it would be just ridiculously expensive when dex/malto works well for waaaay less money.

...:D

[Legend]

The perfect post-workout protocol...IMO:

40-70g Vitargo
5g creatine
10g pure BCAAs
5g pure l-leucine
600mg Acetyl-L-Carnitine, or Propionyl-L-carnitine
200-300mg R-ALA (water soluble antioxidant)


25 minutes later: 25-35g whey protein isolate


45-75 minutes after whey isolate: Eat a solid meal containing Protein, Carbs, and a small amount of Healthy fats.

[NPCKnight]

The perfect post-workout protocol...IMO:

40-70g Vitargo
5g creatine
10g pure BCAAs
5g pure l-leucine
600mg Acetyl-L-Carnitine, or Propionyl-L-carnitine
200-300mg R-ALA (water soluble antioxidant)


25 minutes later: 25-35g whey protein isolate


45-75 minutes after whey isolate: Eat a solid meal containing Protein, Carbs, and a small amount of Healthy fats.

I see someone understands it! Guys...take notes! Good to see you over here bro.

[Frosty]

What's the reasoning behind separating the BCAAs with carbs and the whey protein?

[Jason Newman]

pretty sure he seperates it to spike the insulin the highest possible then when the insulin is spiked and all the supplements have been shuttled into the muscle..... boom add in the anabolic protein

[Legend]

pretty sure he seperates it to spike the insulin the highest possible then when the insulin is spiked and all the supplements have been shuttled into the muscle..... boom add in the anabolic protein

I had a dog and his name was ...BINGO!


lol...Ace Ventura 2: When Nature Calls

[Legend]

I see someone understands it! Guys...take notes! Good to see you over here bro.

What up brotha?

[Frosty]

Makes sense as far as shuttling nutrients.

Just curious, does there happen to be any research on this? Not the shuttling nutrients, but just protein synthesis of carbs first, then protein vs. carbs and protein together. I can't imagine it being that different but sometimes you never know.

[Frosty]

What do you guys think about decent doses of vitamin C post-workout? Pre-workout?

[GENESIS]

Ive had an orange before a workout. productive day

[Legend]

Makes sense as far as shuttling nutrients.

Just curious, does there happen to be any research on this? Not the shuttling nutrients, but just protein synthesis of carbs first, then protein vs. carbs and protein together. I can't imagine it being that different but sometimes you never know.

One of the main reasons for the seperation between the Aminos, creatine, Vitargo, and the whey protein is because Vitargo is a heavy molecular weight carbohydrate, and has an extremely fast rate of gastric emptying (G.E.). However, increasing nutrient density slows the rate of (G.E.). So, by adding only the absolute necessary nutrients to the carbohydrates, you won't compromise the rate of G.E.

Then, within 20 minutes the mixture will be emptying into the small intestine where the most critical nutrients will be absorbed. Then, still taking advantage of high insulin, take your whey isolate to get the rest of your post-workout protein needs.

This way, you don't compromise the speed in which you start absorbing your most critical nutrients. (Leucine, BCAAs, Creatine, etc.)

http://www.vitargo.com/PDF/vitargo_gastric.pdf

[Youngguns]

Dorian got huge I'm assuming without a post workout shake, so are they really that beneficial?

The only thing I could really picture is simple carbs being useful because you already have tons of aminos running through your blood.

[Legend]

The importance of Post-Workout nutrition

Though often overlooked, this part of the bodybuilding equation is the most critical aspect in the quest to foster new growth. Properly utilizing this time is vital for inducing overall muscle mass "activation". A Post Work-out (PWO) formula is designed to maximize the anabolic “window of opportunity” that exists shortly after a hard training session, when muscle protein synthesis can potentially be stimulated for hours.

However, exercise itself causes physical stress on the body. Simultaneously, the rate of protein degradation is also increased. Symptoms of this "stress" often include muscle aches, fatigue, and increased appetite. These symptoms inform us that the exercise has depleted the muscle's fuel resources, caused some minor damage, and that the muscle is in need of replenishment and repair. While the words depletion and damage sound like negative things, if they only stick around for a short period of time these changes allow the muscle to adapt to the demands placed on it, causing it to change (grow).

During the work-out period and immediately following it, the exercise breaks down our muscle carbohydrate stores and our muscle protein structures. Then, the immune system comes in to clean up the mess. Finally, signals are generated to tell the body to rebuild. However, in the absence of critical macronutrient intake, a bodybuilder’s protein balance would remain negative, and rebuilding can't take place. If you want to build muscle this definitely isn’t good.

This is where a (PWO) formula comes into play. It acts quickly and efficiently by supplying your muscles with a powerful cascade of critical nutrients, all in a matter of moments. After a hard workout your muscles are torn down, glycogen is depleted and your body enters a damaging catabolic state. For the bodybuilder, this is a state of red alert. When consumed immediately post-training, a (PWO) blend of muscle mass activators rush to bring your body back into anabolic “green light” status, quickly repairing damaged muscle fibers while triggering fresh growth.



The post work-out period is nothing to take lightly:

Protein: Since muscle protein is degraded during exercise, the consumption of a relatively large amount of protein with your post work-out meal is necessary to rebuild the structural aspects of your muscles. After exercise, the body decreases its rate of protein synthesis and increases its rate of protein breakdown. However, with the provision of protein and amino acids, this trend reverses, increasing protein synthesis and decreasing protein breakdown.

Carbohydrates: All types of exercise use carbohydrates for energy, so in turn muscle carbohydrate depletion is inevitable. Post work-out meals should be high in carbohydrates to refuel muscle carbohydrate/energy stores. You must consume enough carbohydrates to promote substantial insulin release. Insulin is the hormone responsible for transporting carbohydrates and amino acids into the muscle. In doing this, carbohydrate resynthesis is accelerated and protein balance becomes positive, leading to rapid repair of the muscle tissue. By consuming a large amount of carbohydrates, you will promote a large insulin release, increase glycogen storage, and increase protein repair.

Fat & Fiber: While your post work-out feeding should be rich protein and carbohydrates, this meal should be fat and fiber free. The consumption of essential fats is one of the most overlooked areas of daily nutritional intake but, during the post work-out period, eating fat can actually decrease the effectiveness of your post work-out shake.

Since fat and fiber slows down transit through the stomach, eating fat or fiber during the post work-out period may slow the digestion and absorption of carbohydrates and proteins. Finally, another important factor to consider is the timing of this meal. It is absolutely crucial that you consume your post -work-out meal immediately, or at least within 15-20 minutes of exercise, NOT when you get home.

As indicated above, after exercise, the muscles are depleted and require an abundance of protein and carbohydrate. In addition, during this time, the muscles are “primed" for nutrient uptake. This is commonly known as the "window of opportunity". Over the course of the recovery period, this window gradually closes and by failing to eat immediately after exercise, you diminish your chances of promoting full recovery.

Research has shown that consuming a post-exercise meal immediately after working out is superior to consuming one only 1 hour later. In addition, consuming your post work-out meal 1 hour later is superior to consuming one 3 hours later. If you wait too long, glycogen replenishment and protein repair will be compromised.


Liquid meals are best for immediate post work-out nutrition:

Typically, after intense exercise, most people find that eating a big meal is difficult. Exercise stress creates a situation where the hunger centers are all but shut down. However, it's absolutely critical that you eat in order to redefine the muscle, enlarge the muscle, or recover from the exercise. Fortunately liquid supplements taste good, and are easy to consume, and can be quite nutrient dense, providing all the nutrition you need at this time. In addition, since these formulas are structurally simple, the gastrointestinal tract has no difficulty processing them.

Liquid Meals Absorb Fast:

Research has demonstrated that liquid supplemental formulas containing fast digesting protein (whey hydrolysates and isolates) and carbohydrates (Vitargo, Waxy maize, dextrose and maltodextrin) are absorbed more quickly than whole food meals. Liquid formulas may be fully absorbed within 20 to 60 minutes, providing much needed muscle nourishment during the post work-out period. Slow digesting solid foods may take 2 to 3 hours to fully reach the muscles, thereby missing the crucial "window of opportunity" to redefine the muscle during the post work-out period.

Liquid Meals Are Better For Nutrient Targeting:

During the post work-out period, specific nutrients maximize muscle recovery. These nutrients include an abundance of water, high glycemic index carbohydrates, and certain amino acids (Leucine/BCAAs). It's also best to avoid fat and fiber during this time. So the only way to ensure that these nutrients are present in the right amounts is to formulate a specific liquid blend. Whole foods may miss the mark for immediate recovery.



Putting your “Post-Workout Nutrition” together:

Post-workout Protocol:

Within 15-20 minutes after a workout, consume 40-70g fast digesting carbs with zero fat/fiber, 10g BCAAs, 5g leucine, 5g creatine

Optional additions- 200-300mg R- ALA, 3g L-taurine, and 600mg L-Carnitine


25-30 minutes later:
Take 25-35g whey protein isolate

45 to 75 minutes after the whey isolate: Consume a whole food meal, containing Protein, carbohydrates and a small amount of healthy fats.


(Examples of fast digesting carbs with zero fat/fiber)- (Vitargo, waxy maize, maltodextrin)

(If you insist on having solid foods, choose rice cakes, cream of rice, or plain, skinless baked potato)

[ChunkyThunder]

I just take 48g of whey with water after my workout, but I'm a fatass so I dont take in so many carbs

I use 5g and creatine and 24g protein before my workout....should I add the creatine after too?

[Legend]

I just take 48g of whey with water after my workout, but I'm a fatass so I dont take in so many carbs

If your on a keto diet then do not consume carbohydrates post-workout.

If you are not dieting, and consume carbohydrates, but want to keep lean, the best times for carb intake would be meal #1, post-workout #1 (Shake), and post-workout #2 (meal).

Other than these times, carbs are unnecessary.


I use 5g and creatine and 24g protein before my workout....should I add the creatine after too?

The protein pre-workout is great, but have your creatine post-workout.

[ChunkyThunder]

The protein pre-workout is great, but have your creatine post-workout.

Thank you, I will definitely switch it. I'm not doing keto but low carbs, about 150g a day but I can add some post workout and take them out of one of my last meal with carbs.

When I hit a plateau I plan on lowering carbs. I'm down about 20lbs in a month.

[Running Rebel]

Dorian got huge I'm assuming without a post workout shake, so are they really that beneficial?

The only thing I could really picture is simple carbs being useful because you already have tons of aminos running through your blood.

Good point. There are a few pros, including Evan C., who said they only use a whey protein shake (added with creatine, bcaa, etc.) and two bananas post work out. Only if I ever started competing at high level NPC competitions or something would I use the extremely fancy shakes. I just don't think its necessary for the average weightlifter/bodybuilder.

[chasebny]

Good point. There are a few pros, including Evan C., who said they only use a whey protein shake (added with creatine, bcaa, etc.) and two bananas post work out. Only if I ever started competing at high level NPC competitions or something would I use the extremely fancy shakes. I just don't think its necessary for the average weightlifter/bodybuilder.
Im of the opposite opinion. I could use any advantage that a more involved shake might give to accomadate for my sub par genetics.

[Frosty]

One of the main reasons for the seperation between the Aminos, creatine, Vitargo, and the whey protein is because Vitargo is a heavy molecular weight carbohydrate, and has an extremely fast rate of gastric emptying (G.E.). However, increasing nutrient density slows the rate of (G.E.). So, by adding only the absolute necessary nutrients to the carbohydrates, you won't compromise the rate of G.E.

Then, within 20 minutes the mixture will be emptying into the small intestine where the most critical nutrients will be absorbed. Then, still taking advantage of high insulin, take your whey isolate to get the rest of your post-workout protein needs.

This way, you don't compromise the speed in which you start absorbing your most critical nutrients. (Leucine, BCAAs, Creatine, etc.)

http://www.vitargo.com/PDF/vitargo_gastric.pdf


I like this idea. Sounds like it would be great for my idea of driving in micronutrients such as magnesium, chromium, and other nutrients that are needed for insulin sensitivity, glycogen storage, energy production, and of course protein synthesis.

[Frosty]

Legend,

What would happen if you took in the whey and then 25 minutes later you take in the carbs, BCAAs, creatine, etc?

[NPCKnight]

Frosty...the whey would be digesting and completey negate or severely effect the Vitargo getting through your stomach. It would really ruin the entire equation.

[NPCKnight]

Good point. There are a few pros, including Evan C., who said they only use a whey protein shake (added with creatine, bcaa, etc.) and two bananas post work out. Only if I ever started competing at high level NPC competitions or something would I use the extremely fancy shakes. I just don't think its necessary for the average weightlifter/bodybuilder.

You are paraphrasing what Evan C. does and dont really have it right. He doesnt add BCAA to his protein powder? And he uses plenty of the Universal Supp line during and after his workout.

Your logic is flawed bro...there are many ways to benefit from proper supplementation and nutrient timing and I dont give a fuck if your in the NPC or not. Its up to you though if you want to be efficient and pro-active about your nutritional needs, especially post workout.

[Frosty]

Okay, so we do carbs, aminos, and other nutrients first.

Question here is what about using EAAs and leucine instead of just BCAAs and extra leucine?

The logic here is that I've read leucine/BCAAs alone will halt catabolism, but other aminos are needed along with them to jack up protein synthesis.

EAAs plus leucine would, according to what I'm thinking, increase protein synthesis, halt muscle catabolism, and still not reduce speed of gastric emptying of the whole Vitargo, amino, nutrient mix.

[Koubs]

Legend: what are your thoughts on regular dextrose post-workout? You suggest malto, vitargo, or waxy... but dextrose seems like it would fit the bill as well.. thoughts?

[Legend]

Okay, so we do carbs, aminos, and other nutrients first.

Question here is what about using EAAs and leucine instead of just BCAAs and extra leucine?

The logic here is that I've read leucine/BCAAs alone will halt catabolism, but other aminos are needed along with them to jack up protein synthesis.

EAAs plus leucine would, according to what I'm thinking, increase protein synthesis, halt muscle catabolism, and still not reduce speed of gastric emptying of the whole Vitargo, amino, nutrient mix.

Pure BCAAs + Leucine are best to take first with the carbohydrate supplement, because the whey isolate you take 25 minutes later is filled with EEAs.

[Legend]

Good point. There are a few pros, including Evan C., who said they only use a whey protein shake (added with creatine, bcaa, etc.) and two bananas post work out. Only if I ever started competing at high level NPC competitions or something would I use the extremely fancy shakes. I just don't think its necessary for the average weightlifter/bodybuilder.

99% of the population can't compare themselves with people like Dorian, Ronnie, Phil H, Evan C, etc.

Their genetics allow them to grow no matter what, as long as they train hard, and eat good.

People like them are less likely to need "fancy shakes", Its the average weightlifter/bodybuilder that needs to be spot on with their nutrition if they are looking for the maximum results their genetics will allow.

[Legend]

Legend: what are your thoughts on regular dextrose post-workout? You suggest malto, vitargo, or waxy... but dextrose seems like it would fit the bill as well.. thoughts?

Vitargo is the best choice because it actually by-passes digestion in the stomach and goes directly to the small intestine, pulling the critical nutrients you added, with it. Once in the small intestine, it immediately starts absorbing these nutrients so they can enter the blood stream..

The problem with dextrose is that it has a very low molecular weight. This creates a low osmolality so there’s not much osmolalic pull for them to pass through the digestive tract.

So, yes, it spikes insulin very rapidly once it enters the blood stream, but it can take a lot longer to actually reach the small intestine where it can enter the blood stream. I has to sit in the stomach to be digested for 20-30 minutes before it can even move to the small intestine for futher digestion.

Also, many people complain about the bloating when using dextrose. This happens when water mixes with the dextrose in the stomach.

[Frosty]

Legend,

After doing math on Poliquin's recommendation for carbs based on LBM and reps, and the cost of the pure real Vitargo, it actually isn't that expensive.

Now with using a multivitamin PWO with the Vitargo and aminos, do you think it would be better to blend up the emptied capsules in with the Vitargo or just empty it into a cup and down it and chase with water? Would the micronutrients be better transported when blended up with the Vitargo? I'd just be a little afraid of losing nutrients left behind with some that sticks to the side of the blender, so unless this is better I'd rather just empty caps and chase with water.

[Legend]

Legend,

After doing math on Poliquin's recommendation for carbs based on LBM and reps, and the cost of the pure real Vitargo, it actually isn't that expensive.

Now with using a multivitamin PWO with the Vitargo and aminos, do you think it would be better to blend up the emptied capsules in with the Vitargo or just empty it into a cup and down it and chase with water? Would the micronutrients be better transported when blended up with the Vitargo? I'd just be a little afraid of losing nutrients left behind with some that sticks to the side of the blender, so unless this is better I'd rather just empty caps and chase with water.

Thats a good question.

Actually it would be better to take your multi with your post-workout meal, not with your shake.

The reason why is because a lot of the vitamins + minerals are fat soluble, so therefor they need to be taken with fats.

This is why I recommend R-ALA in the post-workout shake, because R-ALA is a very powerful, and water soluble.

Also, you mentioned chromium in an earlier post. Adding 100-200mcg to your post-workout shake can be very beneficial, as long as you make sure you're using chromium polynicotinate.

I've been adding about 100mcg of polynicotinate for the last few weeks.

Also, I always open caps and chase with water, and if I have to take a tablet....I chew it up, no matter how bad it might taste...lol...OCD I guess.

[Frosty]

True A, D, E, and K would need fat. I was thinking concentrated cod liver oil caps that contain fat for the bulk of vitamins A and D. I figured this would be enough fat to help absorption but without slowing down gastric emptying (maybe a gram or two tops of fat), and would help with absorption of the A, D, E, and K in the multi.

[Frosty]

Also, with respect to maximizing absorption and speed, I would imagine it would be best to create as close to a real solution as possible rather than suspension.

Would the best way to do that be to mix up all the ingredients in a blender with warm water? Once made a solution I would probably throw in a few ice cubes to cool it down so it didn't taste like ass....

[Youngguns]

The Facts:

The fact is post workout nutrition is a marketing gimmick. The real trick is getting adequate nutrients throughout the day in regular intervals. If macro nutrients are sufficient, and timing is good, you'll have a steady source of glycogen and amino acids throughout your workout, and through the time it takes to digest your post workout pork tenderloin and pasta.

-Youngguns

[Frosty]

The Facts:

The fact is post workout nutrition is a marketing gimmick. The real trick is getting adequate nutrients throughout the day in regular intervals. If macro nutrients are sufficient, and timing is good, you'll have a steady source of glycogen and amino acids throughout your workout, and through the time it takes to digest your post workout pork tenderloin and pasta.

-Youngguns


I know Charles Poliquin is big on Vitargo to load nutrients into muscle cells, especially stuff that isn't otherwise such as carnitine. He likes it for driving in minerals like magnesium, and also for creatine. I trust his opinion more than yours, no offense. He is very smart and highly successful, and probably one of the top supplement gurus out there.

I eat low carb during the day, even when gaining, so this is a great time to drive nutrients into the muscle cells for me.

[Frosty]

Legend,

Would regular l-carnitine PWO be better for muscle tissue? Since the acetylated version targets nerve tissue. Or how is the propionyl version?

[Legend]

Legend,

Would regular l-carnitine PWO be better for muscle tissue? Since the acetylated version targets nerve tissue. Or how is the propionyl version?

L-Carnitine is a vitamin like nutrient essential for energy production and fat metabolism. L-Carnitine helps transport long chain fatty acids across the mitochondrial membrane for fat breakdown and energy production.

Acetyl-L-carnitine (ALC) is the acetylated ester derivative of the amino acid L-carnitine. Its a specific combination of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen molecules that are added to L-carnitine creating ALC. It has been shown in research studies to have protective effects on the brain and helps to release the neurotransmitter acetylcholine. It may also act as a potent anti-oxidant in the brain. Researchers believe that ALC improves cognition by enhancing the activity of acetylcholine and/or improving neuronal metabolism. It has been shown to have some anti-catabolic effects as well by preventing the decrease in plasma testosterone levels after chronic exercise stress.

By taking ALC, you get the benefits of fatty acid transport, the benefits to the brain, and studies show better absorption. Some new studies state that propionyl l-carnitine is absorbed better than ALC.

Also some studies have shown that all forms of L-Carnitine may help with muscle recovery and glucose uptake.

I would go with ALC, or PLC

[Frosty]

Legend,

I understand not mixing whey with vitargo, but would 25g of the Progenex hydrolysate really be detrimental to mix with the vitargo?

[Frosty]

Legend,

What are the best things to make muscles really full?

Vitargo, creatine mono, and high dose taurine I know with more volume and higher rep work. What else is legit? Does glycerol help?

[chasebny]

Glycerol helps a ton! Love that stuff. Sodium levels has a lot to do with it as well.

[Deltasaurus]

why no carbs PWO for thoes over 10%? even Athletes?

[Frosty]

People that are fat need to reduce the carbs until they get their body back in balance and restore insulin sensitivity. I know Palumbo likes no carbs PWO for cutting, so does Poliquin for guys over 10%, and Christian Thibaudeau, as well as Mauro Di Pasquale.

[Deltasaurus]

what if i do sports after my work outs? like train then within 1-3 hours im doing sports??? and if i have no Carbs PWO should i have them another time of the day/or add carbs to pre-wo, or drop thoes carbs completely?

[Frosty]

Depends on the sport....what sport?

[Deltasaurus]

Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, very taxing on the body and requires alot of energy

[Frosty]

Ya that's different. I'd start low like 20g and see how that works. After a week if you need more add 10g. Go until you are performing well. This is if you're fat, of course.

[Deltasaurus]

im about 12-13% tops

[NPCKnight]

Legend,

I understand not mixing whey with vitargo, but would 25g of the Progenex hydrolysate really be detrimental to mix with the vitargo?

VERY good question that may not have a cut & dry answer

[NPCKnight]

Legend,

What are the best things to make muscles really full?

Vitargo, creatine mono, and high dose taurine I know with more volume and higher rep work. What else is legit? Does glycerol help?

Glycerol and sea salt work well in combination with something such as vitargo, etc.
I have never heard about the taurine part.

I think perhaps Metformin(glucophage) could help this as well.

[RazorRipped]

Dorian got huge I'm assuming without a post workout shake, so are they really that beneficial?

The only thing I could really picture is simple carbs being useful because you already have tons of aminos running through your blood.

True, after training the only thing your body is interested in is glycogen restoration.

Yea, and contraire to what some think, Ronnie and Jay never drank a shake PWO. They ate food. Dorian and countless others never used shakes and manged to be monsters.

Know who gets big with protein shakes? The supplement companies bank accounts!

[Frosty]

Ah that's it. Let me just use drugs and drink Pesi post-workout instead. Good idea. Sounds like a much better plan for an average guy like me.

Wait, I know a guy that was very big, strong, and ripped and he would eat just grape nuts for breakfast with milk. He hardly slept and didn't eat that much. I guess I should do that, too, because obviously this guy got big and ripped that way.

(there's a big difference between what's "needed" to gain muscle and what's more optimal. Can you gain without a PWO shake? Yes. Is a shake better than none? Yes.)

[RazorRipped]

No one is saying to do drugs. Why are you so bitter? Yea I got it. It's a natty thing.

I just think you are a HUGE over analyzer pissing his money away on shit that won't help one bit.


Our bodies haven't changed much in the last 20 thousand years. Fact is our bodies aren't used to fast digesting supplements. Our bodies respond best to FOOD! Our bodies actually like digesting food.

And that's my whole point. Food will trump a PWO shake any day of the week.But you think you are getting and edge drinking some snake oil concoction PWO, good for you. Maybe you should try solid food. Possibly you'll actually make progress for once :-)

But personally, I don't give a flying fuck what you drink. You could drink a shake and drop dead and I couldn't care less to be quite honest:-)

[Frosty]

No one is saying to do drugs. Why are you so bitter? Yea I got it. It's a natty thing.

I just think you are a HUGE over analyzer pissing his money away on shit that won't help one bit.

Our bodies haven't changed much in the last 20 thousand years. Fact is our bodies aren't used to fast digesting supplements. Our bodies respond best to FOOD! Our bodies actually like digesting food.

And that's my whole point. Food will trump a PWO shake any day of the week.But you think you are getting and edge drinking some snake oil concoction PWO, good for you. Maybe you should try solid food. Possibly you'll actually make progress for once :-)

But personally, I don't give a flying fuck what you drink. You could drink a shake and drop dead and I couldn't care less to be quite honest:-)

I'm not against drugs. Hell if I had access I'd be using them in a heart beat. I'm just saying guys using steroids and training a ton and eating a lot of food....that DOES trump PWO nutrition. Add in freaky genetic potential and yeah.

Do I overanalyze? Yes, I do. I'm thinking about this a lot. However I want to eventually take the research, prioritize, budget, and trim it down into something simple and effective.

And of course, the rest of the diet, along with training, is far, far more important than just a PWO shake. I don't expect it to be some magic key to getting HYOOOOGE.

I apologize for my tone. I meant no disrespect even though that didn't seem apparent in my post :)

I don't think it's snake oil. Most of the stuff is pretty well backed by science, like some sort of fast protein, fast carbs, creatine mono, amino acids like leucine and BCAAs, and of course vitamins and specific minerals that have quite a bit of research in being helpful. Muscle is the biggest factor in insulin sensitivity, so why not take advantage of a PWO insulin spike to drive in nutrients to muscle cells that are proven to increase insulin sensitivity like chromium polynicotinate and magnesium?

[RazorRipped]

The supplements that can possibly increase insulin sensitivity won't help if you ingest them with a shake. They need to be taken prior.

Probably one of the better supplements for insulin sensitivity is fish oil. You supplement with that throughout the day, you shouldn't have any insensitivity issues.
Lastly, PWO our bodies are primed and ready for carbohydrates. Taking supplements to increase insulin sensitivity isn't needed at that time.Training makes us more insulin sensitive. Other times of the day when you could be sitting at a desk eating carbs, some sort of supplement to increase insulin sensitivity might be a good idea to help keep you on the lean side. An OTC GDA could help in that case.

[chasebny]

So if you were to rank otc GDA's, where would they fall?
R-ALA
Chromium (form?)
Vanadyl (form?)
Any others I havent heard of?

[Frosty]

The supplements that can possibly increase insulin sensitivity won't help if you ingest them with a shake. They need to be taken prior.

Probably one of the better supplements for insulin sensitivity is fish oil. You supplement with that throughout the day, you shouldn't have any insensitivity issues.
Lastly, PWO our bodies are primed and ready for carbohydrates. Taking supplements to increase insulin sensitivity isn't needed at that time.Training makes us more insulin sensitive. Other times of the day when you could be sitting at a desk eating carbs, some sort of supplement to increase insulin sensitivity might be a good idea to help keep you on the lean side. An OTC GDA could help in that case.

The idea with magnesium, for example, isn't to increase insulin sensitivity for that shake. It's to drive the mineral into muscle tissue to make sure the muscles have good magnesium stores, which will increase insulin sensitivity over time.

Same thing with the taurine. And especially carnitine which seems to have trouble loading into muscle tissue (where it's most wanted) without high insulin.

I agree fish oil is great for that, taken the rest of the day.

[RazorRipped]

I was talking about your intended use of GDA within your PWO concoction. I thought I was rather clear on that.

Now that you are on the topic of magnesium. Here again, either you are over analyzing, or you really don't know much about magnesium and what it does.

Half of magnesium in our bodies is found in the bone. Magnesium helps maintain normal muscle and nerve function, keeps heart rhythm steady, supports a healthy immune system, and keeps bones strong. Magnesium is the fourth most abundant mineral in the body.

Do you eat green leafy veggies throughout the day? Those type veggies are rich in magnesium, as are nuts, beans and grains.

Certainly it isn't going to hurt supplementing with magnesium, but most likely you really don't need to be.

The one thing I noticed you aren't focusing on, or over looked is electrolyte replenishment PWO. You could simply take some BCAA's/electrolyte powder, and some simple carbs in your PWO concoction and be all set. Then go right home and EAT FOOD!

[Frosty]

So if you were to rank otc GDA's, where would they fall?
R-ALA
Chromium (form?)
Vanadyl (form?)
Any others I havent heard of?

Poliquin has two that he uses as a GDA. Fenuplex and Insulinomics. I trust Poliquin when it comes to supplements. His Insulinomics includes some stabilized r-ALA.

[Frosty]

The one thing I noticed you aren't focusing on, or over looked is electrolyte replenishment PWO. You could simply take some BCAA's/electrolyte powder, and some simple carbs in your PWO concoction and be all set. Then go right home and EAT FOOD!

Well I did include 600mg sea salt per 1L of water. This helps with hydration, electrolytes, as well as transport of carbs and creatine.

What sort of electrolyte powder are you talking about, though?

The GDAs I mentioned, Insulinomics and Fenuplex....so you think it would be best to take these a bit before the actual shake? Like 15 minutes or what?

[Legend]

Legend,

I understand not mixing whey with vitargo, but would 25g of the Progenex hydrolysate really be detrimental to mix with the vitargo?

You could mix 25g of hydrolysates (if they are true hydrolysates) with Vitargo without compromising the effects of the gastric emptying.

Just remember, increasing nutrient density slows the rate of (G.E.). So, the more density you add could be compromising the rate of G.E.

[Frosty]

Just remember, increasing nutrient density slows the rate of (G.E.). So, the more density you add could be compromising the rate of G.E.

So would keeping a 10-12% solution eliminate this problem? I assume when you say increasing nutrient density you mean adding more powder to the same amount of liquid. But if you increase the amount of liquid to compensate for the increase in powder, would this negate the issue? For example if you just did 50g Vitargo you'd need 500mL of water, but if you added 25g of hydrolysate then you'd go up to 750mL.

[Legend]

Legend,

What are the best things to make muscles really full?

Vitargo, creatine mono, and high dose taurine I know with more volume and higher rep work. What else is legit? Does glycerol help?

Sodium

Carbohydrates

Water

Some studies have shown glycerol to enhance athletic performance and cause “hyperhydration” when consumed with water (above and beyond that with water alone). It seems it could help keep the body cooler during exercise.

[Frosty]

im about 12-13% tops


Hey I forgot. The other option would be to use glutamine and glycine (if you tolerate it) to restore glycogen levels for your martial arts. 20g up to 80g I've seen used. This is something Poliquin uses, although you're not that far from 10% so using some smaller amounts of carbs is likely fine.

[Frosty]

You could mix 25g of hydrolysates (if they are true hydrolysates) with Vitargo without compromising the effects of the gastric emptying.


This is making me think of the PWO shake I'll use when I get leaner. Once I get down to under 10% I'll start doing some lactic acid style training to strip the rest of the fat off and increase insulin sensitivity. For example a superset of ATG back squats and chinups to failure for 4x12 with as little rest as possible.

PWO I'm thinking:

-50g Vitargo (work up to this amount)
-25g Progenex Recovery (since these are tough workouts and on restricted cals)
-10g leucine
-10g creatine mono
-5g taurine
-5g carnitine (propionyl?)
-Multi with extra Mg, chromium, vanadium
-3g TTA

Drive in nutrients that will help with recovery, fueling the workouts, and for increasing insulin sensitivity and making the muscles burn fat more efficiently.

[Legend]

Well I did include 600mg sea salt per 1L of water. This helps with hydration, electrolytes, as well as transport of carbs and creatine.

What sort of electrolyte powder are you talking about, though?

RR makes a good point about the electrolytes.

Its an important part that I forgot to mention.

I always add sea salt to all my meals, and this includes post-workout.

I add 1/4 tsp. to my whey isolate.

[Legend]

This is making me think of the PWO shake I'll use when I get leaner. Once I get down to under 10% I'll start doing some lactic acid style training to strip the rest of the fat off

If you do this type of training, you'll probably end up losing muscle.

Striping fat off comes from dieting, and LI cardio.

It would be better to lift as heavy as possible to maintain muscle mass while dieting..

and increase insulin sensitivity.

All training increases IS, especially heavy training.

For example a superset of ATG back squats and chinups to failure for 4x12 with as little rest as possible.

PWO I'm thinking:

-50g Vitargo (work up to this amount)
-25g Progenex Recovery (since these are tough workouts and on restricted cals)
-10g leucine
-10g creatine mono
-5g taurine
-5g carnitine (propionyl?)
-Multi with extra Mg, chromium, vanadium
-3g TTA

Drive in nutrients that will help with recovery, fueling the workouts, and for increasing insulin sensitivity and making the muscles burn fat more efficiently....

[Frosty]

Devil's Advocate....couldn't I just do a few heavy sets before the workouts to maintain strength and muscle? For example, Monday do bench 3x5, then do the lactic training. Friday do weighted chins 3x5, then do lactic. Not much additional workload but enough for maintenance.

[RazorRipped]

Devil's Advocate....couldn't I just do a few heavy sets before the workouts to maintain strength and muscle? For example, Monday do bench 3x5, then do the lactic training. Friday do weighted chins 3x5, then do lactic. Not much additional workload but enough for maintenance.

NO! Like Legend said above. Diet and cardio is for fat loss. You need to train the same exact way while you were putting on muscle. While dieting, what training style put on the muscle will retain the muscle.

You lighten up the weights doing that girylman training I assure you you'll drop muscle. When dieting, if you give your body any excuse to drop muscle, you can bet your ass it will.

[Legend]

...

[RazorRipped]

Sodium

Carbohydrates

Water

Some studies have shown glycerol to enhance athletic performance and cause “hyperhydration” when consumed with water (above and beyond that with water alone). It seems it could help keep the body cooler during exercise.

Yea, long distance runners use glycerol to help keep them hydrated. I saw one study done with glycerol/creatine and it didn't help with intramuscular water retention. Probably better off with Salt

[Legend]

Probably better off with Salt

I agree, so many people are brainwashed into thinking salt is so bad, and I can't believe how many people try to remove sodium from their diet when the're dieting.

When I'm dieting,(Keto) I feel that sodium is the main reason my muscles stay so full.

[RazorRipped]

^^^^ Not to mention it's necessary for a healthy thyroid, especially on a keto type diet.

[Legend]

^^^^ Not to mention it's necessary for a healthy thyroid, especially on a keto type diet.

exactly!

[Canuck_Muscle]

All this stuff is very interesting gentlemen. Thx for the tips. It was an interesting read.

[ChunkyThunder]

agreed, this is all very helpful

[flipper]

For protein, I just like this:

25g Progenex Recovery
25g Progenex Growth


Aminos:
15g leucine
10g creatine
5g taurine

Some other considerations:
5g beta alanine
15g glutamine
2g carnitine (tartrate? not sure on form)
Maybe 1g GABA to relax

Hey Frosty,

Looks like you really know your sh_t............lol

Just wanted to ask you about the Progenex line, do you think its superior then, lets say Trueprotein's Whey Isolate?

Also, just wanted to know why not Magnesium Oxide? Its just that I already purchased a few bottles of them from Puritan's Pride. And should you take the magnesium with coral calcium?

Lastly, why taurine after workout? Isn't that useful before.

Thanks bro

[Frosty]

Hey Frosty,

Looks like you really know your sh_t............lol

Just wanted to ask you about the Progenex line, do you think its superior then, lets say Trueprotein's Whey Isolate?

Also, just wanted to know why not Magnesium Oxide? Its just that I already purchased a few bottles of them from Puritan's Pride. And should you take the magnesium with coral calcium?

Lastly, why taurine after workout? Isn't that useful before.

Thanks bro

I have yet to actually use the Progenex line. If it does what it says, then yes, it would be superior to TP's isolate.

Magnesium oxide is the worst form of magnesium to take. It's the least absorbable form. Versions ending in "ate" are better, like citrate, malate, etc. Same goes for calcium. The carbonate form is cheap and popular but it's chalk and not well absorbed. You want it to end in "ate" like lactate or citrate.

I guess you could take magnesium with calcium in the evening. Be careful since calcium can inhibit absorption of many nutrients when taken in decent doses.

Taurine post-workout because it relaxes nerves and helps increase insulin sensitivity over time. It also helps with volumizing cells. Taurine pre-workout is not a good idea since it relaxes you.

[Frosty]

RazorRipped or Legend...

For the GDA like Fennuplex or Insulinomics, would it be better to take that 15 minutes before downing the PWO shake? Or is that not enough time? I know Poliquin mentions he has his athletes take it WITH their PWO shake so I'm not sure now.

[Frosty]

Are there electrolyte powders or is just plain sea salt good enough?

[Frosty]

Also this is an interesting product:

FSI VO2 Max

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/fort/phosphate.html

It contains phosphorous which I know EAS used in their successful Phosphagen creatine stuff. Is this a beneficial thing to take with creatine??

[NPCKnight]

Yea, long distance runners use glycerol to help keep them hydrated. I saw one study done with glycerol/creatine and it didn't help with intramuscular water retention. Probably better off with Salt
is that study available for us to see online? glycerol definitely keeps the body cooler. its just harder to break a sweat with it. i do feel that it holds onto water consumed for a while(while its 'working') but then you piss it all out hours later.

[NPCKnight]

Are there electrolyte powders or is just plain sea salt good enough?

gatorade powder etc

[chasebny]

is that study available for us to see online? glycerol definitely keeps the body cooler. its just harder to break a sweat with it. i do feel that it holds onto water consumed for a while(while its 'working') but then you piss it all out hours later.
Im not sure on the numbers, but from what Ive read, if you drink water, you retain extra water for about an hour. If you drink water+glycerol, it holds for about 4 hours.

[NPCKnight]

that sounds about right. its definitely noticeable.

For about 4 weeks now I have been using glycerol, sea salt, Dextrose, creatine, bcaa and eaa in my pre and during workout shakes.

really shoulda bought the 5lb vitargo at the Arnold.

[Frosty]

I like the idea of some potassium in the PWO drink as well. The Gatorade powder would displace a bunch of carbs from Vitargo which I don't like the idea of.

Is there a sugar free electrolyte powder? What options are there? Is potassium chloride of any use? (the No Salt stuff)

[Legend]

I like the idea of some potassium in the PWO drink as well. The Gatorade powder would displace a bunch of carbs from Vitargo which I don't like the idea of.

Is there a sugar free electrolyte powder? What options are there? Is potassium chloride of any use? (the No Salt stuff)

Powerade 0 is a sugar free electrolyte drink.

[chasebny]

that sounds about right. its definitely noticeable.

For about 4 weeks now I have been using glycerol, sea salt, Dextrose, creatine, bcaa and eaa in my pre and during workout shakes.

really shoulda bought the 5lb vitargo at the Arnold.
I really like the glycerin sea salt and creatine combo. Crystal light lemonade also covers the flavor of salt and glycerin quite nicely, and they almost compliment each other.


I like the idea of some potassium in the PWO drink as well. The Gatorade powder would displace a bunch of carbs from Vitargo which I don't like the idea of.

Is there a sugar free electrolyte powder? What options are there? Is potassium chloride of any use? (the No Salt stuff)
Watch out on supplementing potassium. Going over a certain amount is very, VERY bad.

[Legend]

RazorRipped or Legend...

For the GDA like Fennuplex or Insulinomics, would it be better to take that 15 minutes before downing the PWO shake? Or is that not enough time? I know Poliquin mentions he has his athletes take it WITH their PWO shake so I'm not sure now.

Poliquin recommends taking Fenuplex with meals, and recommends taking Insulinomics with a post-workout shake.

Personally, I don't like the breakdown of either of these products.

If you got some Chromium Poly just add it to your shake.

This is the purpose of Vitargo....it by-passes digestion in the stomach and is emptied directly into the small intestine, pulling other nutrients that are also capable of by-passing digestion in the stomach with it. BCAAs, leucine, creatine, chromium Poly, etc.

Nutrients cannot be absorbed any faster than having them delivered directly to the small intestine...including Chromium Polynicotinate.

Just dump a 100-200mcg capsule of CP directly in your shake.

[Frosty]

Poliquin recommends taking Fenuplex with meals, and recommends taking Insulinomics with a post-workout shake.

Personally, I don't like the breakdown of either of these products.

If you got some Chromium Poly just add it to your shake.

This is the purpose of Vitargo....it by-passes digestion in the stomach and is emptied directly into the small intestine, pulling other nutrients that are also capable of by-passing digestion in the stomach with it. BCAAs, leucine, creatine, chromium Poly, etc.

Nutrients cannot be absorbed any faster than having them delivered directly to the small intestine...including Chromium Polynicotinate.

Just dump a 100-200mcg capsule of CP directly in your shake.

The idea with Insulinomics isn't to speed delivery, but to modify at the cellular level to suppress storage in fat tissue and increase transport to muscle. Even though Anabolic Pump was hugely hyped up, they did recommend taking it 15 minutes before a meal so it had some time to get into the system to modulate receptors. If one used insulinomics, do you think this same principle would apply? It makes logical sense to me, but that doesn't mean it's correct....

[Frosty]

Powerade 0 is a sugar free electrolyte drink.

So you think just mixing up a PWO drink with Powerade Zero would be a good idea? Blending it all up together? Do you think this would be at all better than just adding sea salt to the mix? Sounds like a solid idea to me.

[NPCKnight]

So you think just mixing up a PWO drink with Powerade Zero would be a good idea? Blending it all up together? Do you think this would be at all better than just adding sea salt to the mix? Sounds like a solid idea to me.

Why would it be a bad idea? A fucking teaspoon of gatorade powder isnt going to displace a fucking thing dude.

[Frosty]

Why would it be a bad idea? A fucking teaspoon of gatorade powder isnt going to displace a fucking thing dude.

But that would be pointless to add. A teaspoon of the powder would be what...like 35mg sodium and 10mg potassium?

[NPCKnight]

Milos advocated 1 tsp in each pre, during and post workout shakes. 1 tbsp total. 1 tbsp is equal to 90mg sodium 25mg potassium 13g carbs 50 cals according to my label on my container. The entire point is you are greatly overthinking most of this. Gatorade or Powerade zero will be fine for your needs.

either of those and an extra pinch/tsp of sea salt for good measure will be fine.

[Youngguns]

why would it be a bad idea? A fucking teaspoon of gatorade powder isnt going to displace a fucking thing dude.
roid rage alert

[Mass Construction]

roid rage alert
:D:D

[RazorRipped]

Milos advocated 1 tsp in each pre, during and post workout shakes. 1 tbsp total. 1 tbsp is equal to 90mg sodium 25mg potassium 13g carbs 50 cals according to my label on my container. The entire point is you are greatly overthinking most of this. Gatorade or Powerade zero will be fine for your needs.

either of those and an extra pinch/tsp of sea salt for good measure will be fine.

1 Tablespoon of gatordade is not 13g of carbs. 1 full scoop is.

I see you're fascinated by Milo's intra workout cocktail. Truth is, you've interpreted things wrong. I've read all your posts in the chem section and you are way off on many things. See, I work with two guys who previously worked with Milo's so I know exactly what his protocol is, which is different from the basics he posts on boards. Do you really think he's that generous to give away all his secrets?

[Frosty]

What about this product? Purely an electrolyte powder:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/ham/epow.html

[NPCKnight]

1 Tablespoon of gatordade is not 13g of carbs. 1 full scoop is.

I see you're fascinated by Milo's intra workout cocktail. Truth is, you've interpreted things wrong. I've read all your posts in the chem section and you are way off on many things. See, I work with two guys who previously worked with Milo's so I know exactly what his protocol is, which is different from the basics he posts on boards. Do you really think he's that generous to give away all his secrets?

1 tablespoon of gatorade powder is 13g of carbs bro. im looking on my grape gatorade powder tiny jug now.

im quite fascinated with your intra workout cocktail too. whats your point? im interested in intra workout cocktails that make sense PERIOD. please point out what other things i am 'way off' on. I would really like to see where I am wrong so if I truly am wrong I educate myself.

I'm not really sure what you are suggesting here...that Milos uses much more than 1 TSP x 3 shakes? (1 tbsp total)?

[NPCKnight]

What about this product? Purely an electrolyte powder:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/ham/epow.html


can you please state what exactly you need and why you are looking for it? what is your criteria? exactly what is it that you need/want and what other characteristics does it need to have? for example which electrolytes and apparently you want it with no carbs? why?

[Frosty]

can you please state what exactly you need and why you are looking for it? what is your criteria? exactly what is it that you need/want and what other characteristics does it need to have? for example which electrolytes and apparently you want it with no carbs? why?

Well I'd want a full array of electrolytes. Otherwise I'd just use sea salt if I wanted sodium. This powder seems to be decent as it has multiple electrolyte minerals with no real additives in a powder form that could be dissolved in the PWO shake and rehydrate you properly. I don't want carbs because it would be displacing Vitargo. If I might only use 50g of Vitargo I don't want to displace half of it with sucrose and dextrose just to get a decent amount of electrolytes for a PWO shake that would be on the order of 1 L of water.

[RazorRipped]

..............


1 tablespoon of gatorade powder is 13g of carbs bro. Im looking on my grape gatorade powder tiny jug now.my gatorade it says one scoop. But it doesn't say what one scoop equals. The scoop looks a lot bigger than one tablespoon. Doesn't really matter to me though. It's really only used intra-workout anyway. Sugar free electrolyte powders are used at other times:)

im quite fascinated with your intra workout cocktail too. Whats your point?my point is, you are off base on many things you posted in the chem section in regards to milo's intra-workout cocktail.




i'm not really sure what you are suggesting here...that milos uses much more than 1 tsp x 3 shakes? (1 tbsp total)?no,nothing to do with his use of electrolytes, well sort of. You're off base on many things.things you won't find out on boards like this:)






~rr

[RazorRipped]

Well I'd want a full array of electrolytes. Otherwise I'd just use sea salt if I wanted sodium. This powder seems to be decent as it has multiple electrolyte minerals with no real additives in a powder form .

Yep. Something Salt, nor gatorade has! For some reason people think salt is a great electrolyte. Inferior, just like gatorade is.:)

[Frosty]

Yep. Something Salt, nor gatorade has! For some reason people think salt is a great electrolyte. Inferior, just like gatorade is.:)

Do you think that powder I posted the link to would be a decent product to fit the bill?

[NPCKnight]

..............



~rr


well, i am quoting Milos from what he says and has had written that he advocates. That is all.
I can imagine he doesnt give out all his secrets, but I certainly do not think any of it is wrong or untrue.

[RazorRipped]

well, i am quoting Milos from what he says and has had written that he advocates. That is all.
I can imagine he doesnt give out all his secrets, but I certainly do not think any of it is wrong or untrue.

No, you posted your interpretations of how you read his posts. Many of the things you posted were either not true, or way off base.

Your right. Bodybuilding is sort of like the stock market. If you AREN'T on the inside, you're on the outside.:)

[RazorRipped]

Do you think that powder I posted the link to would be a decent product to fit the bill?

Yes. Far better than gatorade. Powerade Zero, or salt.

[Frosty]

Okay cool we got the electrolyte solution figured out. Thanks for helping guys.

Now I've read about phosphates and creatine together. I know the EAS Phosphagen was popular and effective, and I've seen info on the two being better together than creatine alone.

Sodium phosphate is available in powder form, and would also supply sodium needed for creatine transport. What do you guys think of using sodium phosphate along with creatine mono?

[Frosty]

Here is some info I mentioned:

In their recent book Supplements for Strength-Power Athletes13, Drs. Jose
Antonio and Jeffrey Stout quoted results by Dr. Wallace and colleagues published in
Coaching and Sports Science Journal and unpublished results by Dr. Eckerson. Dr.
Wallace and co-workers investigated the effect of supplemental creatine alone
versus creatine plus phosphate on muscle power. Male and female subjects were
given either five grams of creatine four times per day or five grams of creatine plus
one gram of phosphate four times per day for five days. The combination of creatine
plus phosphate resulted in a significantly higher muscle power output, suggesting
performance benefits more from a combination of phosphates and creatine than
from creatine alone.

Dr. Eckerson and colleagues examined the effects of creatine alone versus
creatine plus phosphate on anaerobic working capacity. Male subjects were
randomly put into one of three treatments: placebo, five grams of creatine, or five
grams of creatine plus one gram of phosphates. Each subject was asked to dissolve
the supplement in 16 ounces of water and ingest it four times per day for six
consecutive days. The subjects performed a cycle ergometry test to determine
anaerobic working capacity. The placebo and creatine groups increased anaerobic
working capacity by –3.0 percent and 16.0 percent, respectively. The creatine plus phosphate group increased anaerobic working capacity by 49 percent.

[Frosty]

RazorRipped,

Entertain me here for sake of conversation. Assuming the Fennuplex and Insulinomics are GDAs that work, does it make sense to take them 15 minutes before your carbs? If not, what time do you suggest? It makes sense to get them in your system to modify GLUT4 and whatever else it's doing before you hit it up with really fast carbs like Vitargo.

[Legend]

The idea with Insulinomics isn't to speed delivery, but to modify at the cellular level to suppress storage in fat tissue and increase transport to muscle. Even though Anabolic Pump was hugely hyped up, they did recommend taking it 15 minutes before a meal so it had some time to get into the system to modulate receptors. If one used insulinomics, do you think this same principle would apply? It makes logical sense to me, but that doesn't mean it's correct....

I know exactly what the idea behind Insulinomics is....I just don't like the ingredients listed. (I don't like the product)

I don't think you are getting the point of some of my posts.

[NPCKnight]

No, you posted your interpretations of how you read his posts. Many of the things you posted were either not true, or way off base.

Your right. Bodybuilding is sort of like the stock market. If you AREN'T on the inside, you're on the outside.:)

Razor, I respect you bro but you are off base here. If you know things Milos does that I do not know about...that is one thing. But to tell me I was interpreting things wrong is not true. My reading comprehension is fantastic and I have studied Milos' 'ways' for 2 years now. If i SAID/WROTE things where I was clear and concise, with no speculating or guesswork, they are things Milos has said/shared/wrote/spoke. And advocated...with his stamp/seal of approval since it was directly from him.

I dont doubt that there are tons more things that Milos reserves for his paying clients, professionals, etc...but to tell me I am interpreting things wrong, and to say MUCH of what I said was wrong....I dont see how that is at all possible.

If you care enough to pursue this disagreement, I would be more than happy to discuss it over PMs or on this thread on the 'many' specific things you say I was was wrong or off base about.

[BrandonBass]

I take 40gms whey isolate, 30gms Carbolyze, 5gms creatine monohydrate, and 10gms glutamine pre and post workout. That seems to work for me. And as Palumbo says, if you take in enough whey isolate then there is no need to supplement with aminos.

[Frosty]

I take 40gms whey isolate, 30gms Carbolyze, 5gms creatine monohydrate, and 10gms glutamine pre and post workout. That seems to work for me. And as Palumbo says, if you take in enough whey isolate then there is no need to supplement with aminos.

Well right now I don't even do a PWO shake at all. I'm cutting down and I just have my meal after my workout. I take 20g BCAAs and creatine before the workout and that's it. So I will agree about the NEED for a lot of stuff. You don't NEED that much to make progress other than good diet and training. I have to disagree with Palumbo on what's optimal, though. Leucine is a powerful stimulator of protein synthesis and PWO is a great time to use it to get your body back to protein synthesis faster.

[Frosty]

No ideas on the sodium phosphate with the creatine? Seems like it's pretty solid, but I'm not sure. The only commercial use in creatine products I've seen is the EAS Phosphagen which is supposed to be very good.

[Frosty]

What do you guys think of pre-workout Vitargo? I know Poliquin doesn't like pre-workout carbs like that and prefers BCAAs, but there are studies about pre-workout drinks being twice as anabolic as a post-workout drink. Poliquin says he likes to keep blood sugar stable but doesn't it seem to make sense if mass is THE goal to have a pre-workout serving of vitargo/aminos as well? I know there are plenty of smart coaches that use pre or intra workout drinks, so it would be interesting to hear a discussion on this subject.

[RazorRipped]

Razor, I respect you bro but you are off base here. If you know things Milos does that I do not know about...that is one thing. But to tell me I was interpreting things wrong is not true. My reading comprehension is fantastic and I have studied Milos' 'ways' for 2 years now. If i SAID/WROTE things where I was clear and concise, with no speculating or guesswork, they are things Milos has said/shared/wrote/spoke. And advocated...with his stamp/seal of approval since it was directly from him.

I dont doubt that there are tons more things that Milos reserves for his paying clients, professionals, etc...but to tell me I am interpreting things wrong, and to say MUCH of what I said was wrong....I dont see how that is at all possible.

If you care enough to pursue this disagreement, I would be more than happy to discuss it over PMs or on this thread on the 'many' specific things you say I was was wrong or off base about.

In your mind you don't realize you've misinterpreted many of Milo's ideologies. I've read your posts and know all that you have wrong. Will I tell you? Not a chance!:)

Good luck, and you might want to get a cane to help you walk through the dark.
http://www.google.com/images?q=tbn:dMXDAxJvgPwkRM::www.istockphoto.com/file

[NPCKnight]

Yes to Vitargo pre workout. Probably about 30g pre if you plan on a during workout shake as well. Would also add creatine, glutamine if you feel its needed, eaa and bcaa, and 1 tsp gatorade powder :) <------That I just wrote was pretty much Milos' pre workout shake. Also perhaps beta alanine would be good to add as well.

[chasebny]

Wasnt there apple sauce as well?

[Frosty]

So sounds good. For pure hypertrophy use a pre-workout shake with some carbs and aminos.

[chasebny]

So sounds good. For pure hypertrophy use a pre-workout shake with some carbs and aminos.
Powdered glycerin and creatine at this time would also facilitate hypertrophy based workouts IMO. Beta alanine would also be a viable addition at this time. Sodium will help as well.

Another thing, for all those reading. Dont read this thread unless you eat 5 times a day. Period.

[RazorRipped]

Wasnt there apple sauce as well?

YES! That's something our local guru NPC Knight seems to know nothing about. Why am I not surprised? I'll tell you why. Because he hasn't any idea of what he has read. He's clueless as to they why's and why nots of Milo's protocols. But in his mind, he "thinks" he's an authority on the topic. Read any of his posts and you'll see he isn't remotely an authority.

[chasebny]

Is the apple sauce so that the liver is topped off, so that vitargo and dextrose go to the muscle instead of the liver?

[NPCKnight]

There was no apple sauce in his write ups or layouts that I saw.

I do have an idea of what I have read and am not clueless to the whys and why nots. I dont see why you are taking shots Razor..especially when you arent explaining shit about it anyways.

[NPCKnight]

BTW, I am not denying that applesauce could be a part in his regimen, but more likely an option in his regimen. I do remember somewhere back in the day reading something about applesauce but it seemed to me it was just another way to get the neccessary carbs pre/during workout. If you had the amount in dextrose or vitargo, or gatorade...applesauce was just an option in my mind.

However, in MOST everything I have read in magazines, on his board, etc., applesauce is not a MUST obviously because it is absent from conversation/suggestion!

[RazorRipped]

There was no apple sauce in his write ups or layouts that I saw.

I do have an idea of what I have read and am not clueless to the whys and why nots. I dont see why you are taking shots Razor..especially when you arent explaining shit about it anyways.

Why should I tell you what you have wrong? You don't contribute on my board, you just come their to pilfer as much info from me as you can. But that's over. I'm only helping those who at least make contributions. Why should I waste my time with leeches?

[Frosty]

Why should I tell you what you have wrong? You don't contribute on my board, you just come their to pilfer as much info from me as you can. But that's over. I'm only helping those who at least make contributions. Why should I waste my time with leeches?


Then please leave the bullshit out of this thread. This was intended to discuss ideas and methods on workout nutrition, not to try to start pissing matches.

[NPCKnight]

Why should I tell you what you have wrong? You don't contribute on my board, you just come their to pilfer as much info from me as you can. But that's over. I'm only helping those who at least make contributions. Why should I waste my time with leeches?

So THATS what this is really about? Damn Razor. I have always respected you, your opinions, and suggestions. That is why OFF THE BAT I offered to pay for your services. Do you remember that? You kindly, and honestly told me, that at this point I probably dont need you. And I was going to summon you to help me pre contest next time I prepare. But I didn't know you took all this so personally..and still don't know why.

[BrandonBass]

Well right now I don't even do a PWO shake at all. I'm cutting down and I just have my meal after my workout. I take 20g BCAAs and creatine before the workout and that's it. So I will agree about the NEED for a lot of stuff. You don't NEED that much to make progress other than good diet and training. I have to disagree with Palumbo on what's optimal, though. Leucine is a powerful stimulator of protein synthesis and PWO is a great time to use it to get your body back to protein synthesis faster.

Yeah, I did a lot of research on Leucine and it has a proven track record. The reason I don't supplement with it, however, is because the whey isolate that I use has around 3-4gms of leucine per serving (VP2 from AST).....but everyone responds differently.

When dieting for a show, I do take Glutamine Select from Beverly which has BCAA's in it. Great product and calorie free.

[RazorRipped]

Then please leave the bullshit out of this thread. This was intended to discuss ideas and methods on workout nutrition, not to try to start pissing matches.

Yea, it's about YOU and your pathetic over analyzation. Get back to everyone 5 yrs from now, and 5 thousand dollars later, when you realize your were an idiot pissing all that money away when the refrigerator was your answer the whole time.


Your a buffoon if I ever saw one!

[Frosty]

Yea, it's about YOU and your pathetic over analyzation. Get back to everyone 5 yrs from now, and 5 thousand dollars later, when you realize your were an idiot pissing all that money away when the refrigerator was your answer the whole time.


Your a buffoon if I ever saw one!

Congratulations you can talk shit on a message board. I'm sure everyone is now impressed.

Now let's move back to discussing the topic instead :)

[Frosty]

I'm really liking the idea of high doses of magnesium with the Vitargo. I know I can take in 1g of it....but I guess one would have to find their bowel tolerance and stick below that! But as much as possible within bowel tolerance of a good form ending in "-ate" sounds good.