PDA

View Full Version : Women and Steroids: The Veil of Secrecy!



huge285
03-28-2009, 03:18 AM
Leigh Penman spills all the secrets of women and anabolic steroids!

http://www.rxmuscle.com/articles/chemical-enhancement/170-female-bodybuilders-and-anabolic-steroids.html

claire
03-28-2009, 12:11 PM
awesome article Lee:D

Jacquester
03-28-2009, 01:30 PM
looking forward to more!

SallyAnne
03-28-2009, 01:33 PM
After all, how can women make safe choices when it comes to steroid selection and use if there's no real information out there to assist them? With this in mind, I have decided to produce a series of articles discussing the role of anabolic steroids by female bodybuilders.

I am very happy to see this. There is very little accurate information out there for AAS usage and women. I look forward to all of her upcoming articles.

GirlyMuscle
03-28-2009, 01:47 PM
Great article! It's about time someone wrote this all out. Thanks, Leigh!

Carolyn Bryant
03-28-2009, 02:16 PM
Hey Leigh. That was a great article. I'm waiting to hear the secrets because those drugs you named are commonplace. However, I would have to disagree about Winstrol being safe for women. I think it is probably one of thee worst drugs on the planet for women. The jury is still out on low doses. But like any pharmacuetical, each individual responds diffferently to certain compounds. Thank you for pointing out the difference between the decas. Durabolin is the one I think is the devil. And women should never take it, period. Gotta mommy why question for ya. Like why are some of these women afraid to talk about using testosterone when they look like they eat it for breakfast, lunch and dinner? Sorry. Had to go there.

SallyAnne
03-28-2009, 02:25 PM
Hey Leigh. That was a great article. I'm waiting to hear the secrets because those drugs you named are commonplace. However, I would have to disagree about Winstrol being safe for women. I think it is probably one of thee worst drugs on the planet for women. The jury is still out on low doses. But like any pharmacuetical, each individual responds diffferently to certain compounds. Thank you for pointing out the difference between the decas. Durabolin is the one I think is the devil. And women should never take it, period. Gotta mommy why question for ya. Like why are some of these women afraid to talk about using testosterone when they look like they eat it for breakfast, lunch and dinner? Sorry. Had to go there.

You do know that every women is different when it comes to sides? I personally know women who have taken test with very few sides, and women who have taken primo with huge sides at low doses. Winny may be a shit drug for you - but there are figure competitors who think of it as the holy grail of contest prep.

I also think that if women choose to take big doses of AAS and are willing to live with the sides - that's their business. I would hope that we could stay away from comments like the one you made and instead focus on educating all women so they can make whatever choice they want to.

Tatyana
03-28-2009, 02:47 PM
You do know that every women is different when it comes to sides? I personally know women who have taken test with very few sides, and women who have taken primo with huge sides at low doses. Winny may be a shit drug for you - but there are figure competitors who think of it as the holy grail of contest prep.

I also think that if women choose to take big doses of AAS and are willing to live with the sides - that's their business. I would hope that we could stay away from comments like the one you made and instead focus on educating all women so they can make whatever choice they want to.

Don't they call winstrol 'snake bite' as the sides are unpredictable for women?

Some have terrible problems (poisonous snake) and others have few (cute little garden snake).

It is true about sides, there are some women who don't mind androgenising at all.

Sledge
03-28-2009, 03:13 PM
Hey Leigh. That was a great article. I'm waiting to hear the secrets because those drugs you named are commonplace. However, I would have to disagree about Winstrol being safe for women. I think it is probably one of thee worst drugs on the planet for women. The jury is still out on low doses. But like any pharmacuetical, each individual responds diffferently to certain compounds. Thank you for pointing out the difference between the decas. Durabolin is the one I think is the devil. And women should never take it, period. Gotta mommy why question for ya. Like why are some of these women afraid to talk about using testosterone when they look like they eat it for breakfast, lunch and dinner? Sorry. Had to go there.

Kinda answered your own final question with you rude and ignorant final comment didn't ya.

Sledge
03-28-2009, 03:24 PM
Don't they call winstrol 'snake bite' as the sides are unpredictable for women?

Some have terrible problems (poisonous snake) and others have few (cute little garden snake).

It is true about sides, there are some women who don't mind androgenising at all.


Isn't the main reason it's considered one of the safer ones for women because it's out of the system relatively fast. So if a woman starts to experience negative side effects she can just stop using the substance. Unlike primo which though IMO is safer for women but if you don't like the side effects and you stop using it today you still continue to experience the side efects for a few weeks after.

Personaly i think Var and maybe primo are all any woman should need, but thats realy up to the individual woman to decide based on the positive side effects outweighing the negative in her mind. If a woman wants to run a long acting test and she know's what she's doing then more power to her. But I'd certainly understand her reluctance to talk about it with some of the rude oppinionated people out there.

Carolyn Bryant
03-28-2009, 05:37 PM
It's funny how people who slap you in the face with truth are considered rude. It amazes me how people wrap up the whole drug use thing by saying if girls who do hardcore androgens don't care about the side affects why do you. I have a general concern for the preservation of humanity. Living in a world where some people have no boundaries disturbs me. I strive to understand the world of self mutilation. It's not enough for a person like Jeff Dahmer to say it's none of my business why I kill my lovers when I get done having sex with them. It would kinda make more sense if he told me that he liked the taste of human flesh and human brains made for a delicious soup.

For the record I was sticking to the point. Leigh said that very few women were willing to publically discuss their use of testosterone. I asked why would they be shame to go public when the main question would be how much do they use since they look like the use alot.

Don't you know by now I'm a professional shyt starter and master at backing it up.

Tatyana
03-28-2009, 05:46 PM
It's funny how people who slap you in the face with truth are considered rude.

What is this truth you speak of?

It amazes me how people wrap up the whole drug use thing by saying if girls who do hardcore androgens don't care about the side affects why do you. I have a general concern for the preservation of humanity.

Living in a world where some people have no boundaries disturbs me.

How is this related to women using performance enhancing drugs? Why are you assuming they have no boundaries?

I strive to understand the world of self mutilation.

Interesting interpretation. What part of steroid use is self-mutilation? Or is it women putting on muscle? Some consider that self-mutilation.

It's not enough for a person like Jeff Dahmer to say it's none of my business why I kill my lovers when I get done having sex with them. It would kinda make more sense if he told me that he liked the taste of human flesh and human brains made for a delicious soup.

:confused::confused::confused:

For the record I was sticking to the point. Leigh said that very few women were willing to publically discuss their use of testosterone. I asked why would they be shame to go public when the main question would be how much do they use since they look like the use alot.

How many women have you met who have done steroids or testosterone? What are you basing this on?

Don't you know by now I'm a professional shyt starter and master at backing it up.

Oh goodie. I am sure we will have fun.

Sledge
03-28-2009, 05:50 PM
But you haven’t backed anything up. you've just dribbled some more totaly irrelevant crap. You are a half arsed shyt starter and fail dismally at backing it up.

And please tell me more about your preservation of humanity. Not just the dribble you type and I’m sure talk to your friends. But the actual actions you take in the preservation of humanity

SallyAnne
03-28-2009, 06:11 PM
It's funny how people who slap you in the face with truth are considered rude. It amazes me how people wrap up the whole drug use thing by saying if girls who do hardcore androgens don't care about the side affects why do you. I have a general concern for the preservation of humanity. Living in a world where some people have no boundaries disturbs me. I strive to understand the world of self mutilation. It's not enough for a person like Jeff Dahmer to say it's none of my business why I kill my lovers when I get done having sex with them. It would kinda make more sense if he told me that he liked the taste of human flesh and human brains made for a delicious soup.

For the record I was sticking to the point. Leigh said that very few women were willing to publically discuss their use of testosterone. I asked why would they be shame to go public when the main question would be how much do they use since they look like the use alot.

Don't you know by now I'm a professional shyt starter and master at backing it up.


I think the reason many women don't talk about it is because of comments like the one you made. Our women's forum is here as a setting for women to be able to discuss difficult subjects like this without the fear of negative comments.

..and if you are proud of the fact that you are "a professional shyt starter", consider this a warning that you won't be starting it here.

Skeptic
03-28-2009, 06:21 PM
All of Tatyana's violet answers make sense to me. Except I think she should have amplified the light blue confused smilies. There should have been a million of those. Dahmer? WTF?

And if you're uncomfortable with boundary-bending, FBB may not be the sport for you. Or male BB either. Add gene doping to the mix and in 20 years BBing MAY be producing something totally foreign to our eyes the way current BBers are so foreign to current civilian eyes.

And eventually the word "femininity" will rear it's head in the debate. Just wtf is femininity anyways? Words like "spiritual" and "fitness", to name two examples, get used all of the time by people in the same conversation without the participants ever agreeing on what the words ACTUALLY mean. Same deal here. Obviously, after 23 pages of thread we will all agree that "femininity" means different things to different people. And then go on to judge others based on OUR definition, thereby wasting 23 pages of time and network bandwidth.

IMO: knowledge = good. Shyt disturbing = bad.

Carolyn Bryant
03-28-2009, 06:51 PM
Has anyone read "Chemical Pink" by Katie Arnoldi? It's a fabulous book if you want to know about drug cycles for women or first-hand discussion about a women lured into drug use and the regrets that followed.

Fear is an illusion. Why be afraid to discuss something you are proud of doing?

I know lots of women who have explored drugs, and more than few wish they had never gone there. The negatives outweighed the positives.

Yes, I do consider some forms of bodybuilding to be self-mutilation.

Thanks, Tayana for pointing out the info about Winstrol.

I think the reason Leigh wrote the article was an attempt to educate and open up discussion. My comments are based on the discussions real people have about the subject but are reluctant to say because of a threat of being censored. So I ask again, why would any woman consider adding testosterone to her drug cocktail?

Mr. Sledge, are you a doctor of some sort? Even if you were you would be considered godly if you claim to have some greater understaning of the intricate female endocrine system than a biochemist or me, for that matter because I am a woman. And a walking lab rat who can talk about personal experiences. What drugs do you use to stop your period? I think Danazol is wonderful and plan to write an article about it. There are far less side affects than the more common HRT's prescribed. Birth control pills worked well at first but later proved counterproductive during contest prep.

I am Captain-Sav-a-Hoe in the flesh. But I only save those who want to be saved.

SallyAnne
03-28-2009, 07:08 PM
Chemical Pink is your go to book for reference to fbb's AAS cycles? L O L.

sassy69
03-28-2009, 07:12 PM
Isn't the main reason it's considered one of the safer ones for women because it's out of the system relatively fast. So if a woman starts to experience negative side effects she can just stop using the substance. Unlike primo which though IMO is safer for women but if you don't like the side effects and you stop using it today you still continue to experience the side efects for a few weeks after.

Personaly i think Var and maybe primo are all any woman should need, but thats realy up to the individual woman to decide based on the positive side effects outweighing the negative in her mind. If a woman wants to run a long acting test and she know's what she's doing then more power to her. But I'd certainly understand her reluctance to talk about it with some of the rude oppinionated people out there.

People like it because its easy to get & cheaper than var or primo, fast-acting / clears quickly, great for promoting tight, lean muscles. I also think there are many women who start their exposure to steroids by either seeing their bf/SO/husband using and wondering what it will do for them. I think many men know there is a difference between what they can take and what women should take, but aren't sure what. So they suggest winstrol because it is something they are familiar with, probably know where to get / have and its not an aggressive androgenic like the stuff guys use. And that's how it starts.. "Try some winny - it will lean you out & tone you up". And as Leigh notes, yes you can drink the winny instead of injecting because its water-based.

I also think that after all that, women find one result or the other - they love it or hate it, probably based partially on their expectations / tolerance of sides, and then their particular body chemistry.

sassy69
03-28-2009, 07:17 PM
I think the reason many women don't talk about it is because of comments like the one you made. Our women's forum is here as a setting for women to be able to discuss difficult subjects like this without the fear of negative comments.

..and if you are proud of the fact that you are "a professional shyt starter", consider this a warning that you won't be starting it here.

This is just another flavor of everything about what women do & whether or not they are "feminine". In most cases why they even bother bringing it up if the same old discussion/attitude/accusations/assumption always follows? The stigma around steroids in general makes it not worth calling attention to. Within the fitness community, every time someone comments on whether or not a female looks feminine or not blows up into a whole multipage debate thread, but no one says a thing if she does look feminine, even if she is using steroids. Its all very subjective and always sparks controversy so why would anyone want to call attention to it?

SallyAnne
03-28-2009, 07:21 PM
This is just another flavor of everything about what women do & whether or not they are "feminine". In most cases why they even bother bringing it up if the same old discussion/attitude/accusations/assumption always follows? The stigma around steroids in general makes it not worth calling attention to. Within the fitness community, every time someone comments on whether or not a female looks feminine or not blows up into a whole multipage debate thread, but no one says a thing if she does look feminine, even if she is using steroids. Its all very subjective and always sparks controversy so why would anyone want to call attention to it?

As usual, I agree with you 100%.

Leigh Penman is not writing her articles as a way of opening the age old debate on 'fuckability' and steroids. She's writing her articles for educational purposes and to hopefully encourage women to be more open about AAS usage.

Tatyana
03-28-2009, 07:24 PM
Has anyone read "Chemical Pink" by Katie Arnoldi? It's a fabulous book if you want to know about drug cycles for women or first-hand discussion about a women lured into drug use and the regrets that followed.

Fear is an illusion. Why be afraid to discuss something you are proud of doing?

I know lots of women who have explored drugs, and more than few wish they had never gone there. The negatives outweighed the positives.

Yes, I do consider some forms of bodybuilding to be self-mutilation.

Thanks, Tayana for pointing out the info about Winstrol.

I think the reason Leigh wrote the article was an attempt to educate and open up discussion. My comments are based on the discussions real people have about the subject but are reluctant to say because of a threat of being censored. So I ask again, why would any woman consider adding testosterone to her drug cocktail?

Strength or increased muscle mass. Medical reasons including HRT, osteoporosis, renal failure.



Mr. Sledge, are you a doctor of some sort? Even if you were you would be considered godly if you claim to have some greater understaning of the intricate female endocrine system than a biochemist or me, for that matter because I am a woman. And a walking lab rat who can talk about personal experiences.

What exactly are you saying? You know more than endocrinologists or that you are an endocrinologist? Or are you a lab rat? Or both?

What drugs do you use to stop your period?

Birth control pills.


I think Danazol is wonderful and plan to write an article about it. There are far less side affects than the more common HRT's prescribed. Birth control pills worked well at first but later proved counterproductive during contest prep.

Are you referring to oestrogen being anabolic?

I am Captain-Sav-a-Hoe in the flesh. But I only save those who want to be saved.

I think I understand you sentiments, however, I think that you may be preaching to the converted.

I think there are far more women who really don't have their diet or training sorted who are not physique athletes who are using steroids to 'tone up' or 'lose that bit of stubborn fat'.

musclegoddess65
03-28-2009, 09:17 PM
Excellent info. Leigh.... I look forward to the rest of the series....

Suzanne
03-28-2009, 11:03 PM
Like why are some of these women afraid to talk about using testosterone when they look like they eat it for breakfast, lunch and dinner? Sorry. Had to go there.

How bout cuz it is illegal and people have lives outside of bodybuilding that maybe posting openly about doing things that are illegal isn't such a great idea and could ruin those lives

Carolyn Bryant
03-28-2009, 11:26 PM
Thanks so much Sassy and Tatyana for engaging in conversation with me. I already understand the medical need for women to take testosterone. I studied it in school. I guess I should have posed the question differently. I figured out that test was probably cheaper than the other drugs after I sent the post and basically answered my own question. With that said, I just think there are far better compounds to take for strength and muscle gains than test.

As a bodybuilding purist, I do not think that drugs of any kind are the best way to achieve those goals, period. By far the fastest, but still not the best. Not everyone is meant to be a competitive bodybuilder. It is a sport for the genetically gifted. At least it used to be.

Birth control pills lost potency after awhile. At times elevated my blood pressure so I trashed em.

No, I am not an endocrinologist. I'm just a very educated female who has struggled with estrogen dominace since puberty. I have done my own independent research on the subject and have drawn my own conclusions about what is best for me. Controlling my diet plays a huge part in my success.


Yes, I am a walking lab rat. I was responding to the fella who called me ignorant when I pointed that out.

Yes, there is a fair amount of research to conclude estros are anabolic. And many scientists believe as I do that women are able to make faster muscle gains due to the presence of estrogen. So again, I say using what your body already makes might be better than a male hormone. And that taking a male hormone in large amounts could cause you some serious problems later in life.

There are some good drugs out there for non-athletes to reduce stubborn body fat. Phentermine is one of them if you don't mind losing a little muscle in the process. Dan Duchaine suggested that the exact doses of rat poison was great for reducing bodyfat and would allow you to eat at places like Dairy Queen daily and not get fat.

No, I don't suggest any woman using any of the cycles outlined in the book Chemical Pink. It is a reference for any woman who wanted to hear from another women the pain and agony she experienced after getting involved with drugs. I recall she described her pain as losing herself in a world she barely understood for no good reason. I can give you many more names of current and retired bodybuilders who felt the same way. It proves nothing to argue with you about facts. But for your reference read the interviews with Kim, Lenda and Lesa Lewis to name a few since you minimize my conversations about the negative side of drugs to be mere folly.

Carolyn Bryant
03-28-2009, 11:29 PM
Good point. But Leigh didn't need any names. She needed information for her story.

SallyAnne
03-28-2009, 11:37 PM
Side effects are not folly and no one here ever said that they were. I think it's the way you callously stated that women who use test look like they eat it for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. It's a broad sweeping statement that has no value other than to show your disdain for women who take it.

You are entitled to your opinions, but again - the idea here is to encourage all women to talk and learn about AAS usage. I ask that you withhold criticism and judgement of anyone and focus on the knowledge that Leigh has offered to share.

Lee Penman
03-28-2009, 11:40 PM
Hey Leigh. That was a great article. I'm waiting to hear the secrets because those drugs you named are commonplace. However, I would have to disagree about Winstrol being safe for women. I think it is probably one of thee worst drugs on the planet for women. The jury is still out on low doses. But like any pharmacuetical, each individual responds diffferently to certain compounds. Thank you for pointing out the difference between the decas. Durabolin is the one I think is the devil. And women should never take it, period. Gotta mommy why question for ya. Like why are some of these women afraid to talk about using testosterone when they look like they eat it for breakfast, lunch and dinner? Sorry. Had to go there.
Totally agree with you on the test. issue...there is more to come on that in future articles. Winstrol? You are right...a lot of women have a hard time with it but since it is cheaper than Anavar they still tend to substitute it from my research. Thanks for the feedback.

Carolyn Bryant
03-29-2009, 02:14 AM
Thanks Leigh. I can't wait to read the follow up.

Contrary to some belief, I am here to educate. I don't have to be fluffy in my approach. If femininity is not an issue then why do drugs like Sustanon, Anadrol, Parabolan, Masteron, DHT and Trembalone carry a label not reccomended for women? Perhaps some women use them anyway.
There is a reason why these test derivatives are not widely used by women. Why not use DNP? Halotestin? As a former powerlifter, I happened to like that. Why are these drugs not considered "safe" for women? Perhaps they are too strong? What is the main concern by licensed health officials? Is it not mass destruction of our enodocrine system?

When a woman starts speaking in baratone from fried vocal cords, shaving her face and her back daily and begins to develop a squared jawline and a enlarged forehead - those are signs of AAS abuse. I have yet to see any imperical data that forecasts what might happen later in life if you don't maintain "healthy" levels of estrogen in your body. As a bodybuilder I don't worry about Osteoporosis because I have way too much muscle density for that. But there could be other things lurking.

How many women do their research about certain compounds before they take them. How can you disqualify certain drug contraindications? Too much Winstrol has been known to elevate blood pressure and destroy healthy cholesterol levels. Leigh didn't mention Clenbuterol, but it too is has the snake bite tag.

Some of these women you speak of may be reading this right now saying, gosh Carolyn makes a valid point. I could be destroying my body and not know it. So that in fact makes my comments helpful.

How empowering it is when a woman can say to a man "suck my dick" and mean it!

Perhaps Leigh plans to discuss some of this in her next segment. I sure hope so.

Tatyana
03-29-2009, 02:23 AM
I understand what you are saying as I have seen far too many posts on BBing forums from women who are very concerned and a bit panicked about side effects.

I also see so many women who are cardio fanatics yet still eat a protein depleted diet want to take steroids to gain more definition.

There are also those so focused on their first contest, they will do ANYTHING to get on stage.

Most of the time, when they have their mind set on it, they will do it, and no amount of logical advice will change their minds.

Maybe there is a place for your style of communicating the information across, however I find that most just go somewhere to hear what they want to hear.

It is important to get information regarding the safest use of steroids for women. For those that are unaware of some of the sides or don't want them, the consequences can be quite severe.

GirlyMuscle
03-29-2009, 08:19 AM
Thanks Leigh. I can't wait to read the follow up.

Contrary to some belief, I am here to educate. I don't have to be fluffy in my approach. If femininity is not an issue then why do drugs like Sustanon, Anadrol, Parabolan, Masteron, DHT and Trembalone carry a label not reccomended for women? Perhaps some women use them anyway.
There is a reason why these test derivatives are not widely used by women. Why not use DNP? Halotestin? As a former powerlifter, I happened to like that. Why are these drugs not considered "safe" for women? Perhaps they are too strong? What is the main concern by licensed health officials? Is it not mass destruction of our enodocrine system?

When a woman starts speaking in baratone from fried vocal cords, shaving her face and her back daily and begins to develop a squared jawline and a enlarged forehead - those are signs of AAS abuse. I have yet to see any imperical data that forecasts what might happen later in life if you don't maintain "healthy" levels of estrogen in your body. As a bodybuilder I don't worry about Osteoporosis because I have way too much muscle density for that. But there could be other things lurking.

How many women do their research about certain compounds before they take them. How can you disqualify certain drug contraindications? Too much Winstrol has been known to elevate blood pressure and destroy healthy cholesterol levels. Leigh didn't mention Clenbuterol, but it too is has the snake bite tag.

Some of these women you speak of may be reading this right now saying, gosh Carolyn makes a valid point. I could be destroying my body and not know it. So that in fact makes my comments helpful.

How empowering it is when a woman can say to a man "suck my dick" and mean it!

Perhaps Leigh plans to discuss some of this in her next segment. I sure hope so.

So that comment was necessary?

While you are welcome to your opinion and you are welcome to voice it here at rxmuscle, this thread is about getting information out to women that they wouldn't normal have or would have a hard time finding. Start another thread if you want to argue morality and ethics.

Lee Penman
03-29-2009, 09:21 AM
Thanks everyone for your feedback so far...this proves to me that this series is needed and I will keep on expanding it!
Sally Ann...thanks for all your support, you really get what I am trying to achieve here!
Carolyn....Do we have an Elizabeth from 'The View' in our midst....quick call Joy Behar...lol!!!!
I do plan doing a feature on Danazol so if anyone wants to private e mail me on this - or any other method they use to manipulate (for want of a better word) the menstrual cycle please do. Or e mail me direct at [email protected] if you prefer...thanks again!

GirlyMuscle
03-29-2009, 09:23 AM
Thank you Leigh for what you are doing here. It's so needed.

Lee Penman
03-29-2009, 09:31 AM
So that comment was necessary?

While you are welcome to your opinion and you are welcome to voice it here at rxmuscle, this thread is about getting information out to women that they wouldn't normal have or would have a hard time finding. Start another thread if you want to argue morality and ethics.
Thank you for this comment...I think the whole self mutilation and Jeff Dahmer thing was going a bit too far! I mean...WTF(???)....lol!

pnohe
03-29-2009, 09:36 AM
it was a good article... I think you hit most of the bigger compounds (at least in my experience with training women). thanks and please keep them coming

Lee Penman
03-29-2009, 09:40 AM
As usual, I agree with you 100%.

Leigh Penman is not writing her articles as a way of opening the age old debate on 'fuckability' and steroids. She's writing her articles for educational purposes and to hopefully encourage women to be more open about AAS usage.
This is exactly why this series is here. It is time for women to speak up about their drug use and, in so doing, help and eductae others. Maybe if enough women come forward we can end the age old reliance on male trainers etc for advice. Most males (there are educated exceptions...e.g. Dave Palumbo) are not familiar enough with the female endocrine system to dish out cycle advice. Plus, individual body chemistry plays an important part. By discussing this subject openly - and truthfully - we can become empowered......God I sound like a raging feminist (which I am not, honest...lol!)

GirlyMuscle
03-29-2009, 09:44 AM
This is exactly why this series is here. It is time for women to speak up about their drug use and, in so doing, help and eductae others. Maybe if enough women come forward we can end the age old reliance on male trainers etc for advice. Most males (there are educated exceptions...e.g. Dave Palumbo) are not familiar enough with the female endocrine system to dish out cycle advice. Plus, individual body chemistry plays an important part. By discussing this subject openly - and truthfully - we can become empowered......God I sound like a raging feminist (which I am not, honest...lol!)You don't sound like a raging feminist! Just someone with much needed knowledge who is willing to share. Keep it coming!

pnohe
03-29-2009, 09:59 AM
"Most males (there are educated exceptions...e.g. Dave Palumbo) are not familiar enough with the female endocrine system to dish out cycle advice. Plus, individual body chemistry plays an important part....."

I work with a lot of women and make no mistake about it, the great majority of them know VERY little about they're own systems.... and MANY would be happy to manipulate factors without investing time in learning the science and how their bodies are effected short and long term

GirlyMuscle
03-29-2009, 10:01 AM
"Most males (there are educated exceptions...e.g. Dave Palumbo) are not familiar enough with the female endocrine system to dish out cycle advice. Plus, individual body chemistry plays an important part....."

I work with a lot of women and make no mistake about it, the great majority of them know VERY little about they're own systems.... and MANY would be happy to manipulate factors without investing time in learning the science and how their bodies are effected short and long term
That's why these articles are so important.

pnohe
03-29-2009, 10:15 AM
yep, I agree!!

musclegoddess65
03-29-2009, 10:37 AM
PLEASE Leigh keep the info and articles coming... time to subscribe to this thread for all the updates!

Carolyn Bryant
03-29-2009, 12:29 PM
So you are saying that this thread is supposed to be a place where women can read about safe drug cycles? You are warning me about warning women of the dangers of AAS? Well, I stick to my guns. Say no to drugs! Train hard and eat right. Get proper rest. The gains will come. If you have a need to use androgens, know what you are taking. A safe amount is pure speculation.

How did we get on morality and ethics? I'm not trying to save their souls. I'm trying to save their lives. Indeed it is all about personal choice. I chose to tell women that the gains they are trying to make are not worth risking your health.

Tatyana, you might have hit the nail on the head. NO AMOUNT OF LOGICAL ADVICE WILL CHANGE THEIR MINDS.

Here's another morsel on Winstrol. It can cause gastrointestinal issues like GERD and IBS. I have both. No one knows if either came as a direct result from experimenting with Winny or not, but you sure can't discount the fact that it could have. It also dehydrates the epidermal cells and can cause your skin to become leathery. Note: there is no cosmetic surgery for a new sheet of skin.

Another item I failed to mention was that using several drugs that over stimulate the hypothalmus and pituatary can cause a myriad of problems. In short, your brains get fried and you go crazy.

Leigh are you going to cover that in your next article?

You're so right. I shouldn't have made a skiddish comment about clitoral enlargement. I should have stuck to being serious because that can become a serious health issue as well. Too much blood flow to that area for long periods of time is like a man having a four-hour erection. You've heard the commercials. If that happens you need to seek medical attention immediately.

SallyAnne
03-29-2009, 12:58 PM
So you are saying that this thread is supposed to be a place where women can read about safe drug cycles? You are warning me about warning women of the dangers of AAS? Well, I stick to my guns. Say no to drugs! Train hard and eat right. Get proper rest. The gains will come. If you have a need to use androgens, know what you are taking. A safe amount is pure speculation.

How did we get on morality and ethics? I'm not trying to save their souls. I'm trying to save their lives. Indeed it is all about personal choice. I chose to tell women that the gains they are trying to make are not worth risking your health.

Tatyana, you might have hit the nail on the head. NO AMOUNT OF LOGICAL ADVICE WILL CHANGE THEIR MINDS.

Here's another morsel on Winstrol. It can cause gastrointestinal issues like GERD and IBS. I have both. No one knows if either came as a direct result from experimenting with Winny or not, but you sure can't discount the fact that it could have. It also dehydrates the epidermal cells and can cause your skin to become leathery. Note: there is no cosmetic surgery for a new sheet of skin.

Another item I failed to mention was that using several drugs that over stimulate the hypothalmus and pituatary can cause a myriad of problems. In short, your brains get fried and you go crazy.

Leigh are you going to cover that in your next article?

You're so right. I shouldn't have made a skiddish comment about clitoral enlargement. I should have stuck to being serious because that can become a serious health issue as well. Too much blood flow to that area for long periods of time is like a man having a four-hour erection. You've heard the commercials. If that happens you need to seek medical attention immediately.

Yes, and no. The topics Leigh is covering are to help women who are going to take AAS regardless of how much morality you think you can shove down their throats. I think Leigh covers the pros and cons quite well without having to resort to comments like 'suck my dick'. No one is saying it's safe and without risk.

This is very similar to sex education and the stance of the catholic church. They would much rather have abstinence as the only thing taught to young men and women because they believe sex education means giving young people permission. Planned parenthood believes that educating people and providing safe alternatives is better.

You were warned because of your trolling behavior and the inability to discuss this topic without resorting to insults.

Tatyana
03-29-2009, 01:35 PM
Yes, and no. The topics Leigh is covering are to help women who are going to take AAS regardless of how much morality you think you can shove down their throats. I think Leigh covers the pros and cons quite well without having to resort to comments like 'suck my dick'. No one is saying it's safe and without risk.

This is very similar to sex education and the stance of the catholic church. They would much rather have abstinence as the only thing taught to young men and women because they believe sex education means giving young people permission. Planned parenthood believes that educating people and providing safe alternatives is better.

You were warned because of your trolling behavior and the inability to discuss this topic without resorting to insults.

All the evidence shows that this is the case, education results in a lower rate of teen pregnancies and STDs.

The same principle has been applied to heroin and junkies, give them medical grade heroin, clean needles and a safe place to inject and there is a decrease in crime and the number of junkies.

Providing people with all of the information is imperative, however there are some ways of communicating that stop the flow of information and discussions.

Carolyn Bryant
03-29-2009, 01:39 PM
BaaBaa, we can go some rounds talking about drugs. You will lose every time.

Trolling behavior? There is a big difference between insult and controversial delivery.

There is a Women and Steroids thread on SiouxCountry with some real info. You should check it out. There is also a video from Bryant Gumbel's Real Sports (that I can't seem to download at the moment) that discusses the safety of drug use in healthy MEN. The producer was careful to narrow the scope and omit teens and women. Why? Because there is not enough info to substantiate any scientific claims other than the negative side affects.

So missy don't get mad at me. Blame John Romano. Cuz I got some of my info from reading his articles. And, I'm going to speak to "The Boss" again about what I can and cannot say on this thread.

Carolyn Bryant
03-29-2009, 01:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillBrink http://siouxcountry.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://siouxcountry.com/showthread.php?p=186581#post186581)
A good vid to watch, a good vid to pass around regarding the above:



WOW!

Great video http://siouxcountry.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Carolyn Bryant
03-29-2009, 01:53 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0LEj8IPHGU

I hope this is it.

Angela123
03-29-2009, 02:25 PM
what is going on in here? fuck. first off, thanks so much leigh for the great article. it is greatly needed. please keep them coming. second off, i agree with sassy, well usually i always agree with sassy, but esp in regards to her line that talks about, how it is funny we only talk about the women who arent super feminine, in regards to steroids. let's be honest...many national level and pros use...and many of those women are gorgeous...yet we dont talk about them using steroids. only the less feminine looking ones.

carolyn...we so badly want this forum to be open to all women and all topics and we want you to be able to express your opinoin, but what is with all the hostility? In your intro post, aren't you doing some research of your own? Don't you have your own column? Are you trying to get all of us 'riled up' so you can go back and use this in your column? which by the way, if you are...you need to let us know. i personally, do not want my opinon and any of my posts in any column of your's. your posts in the past have seem very random. you have made off the wall posts in threads, would any of you ladies date a bi sexual men, is one example. i actually have all of your 'off the wall posts' all lined up. i can list more if you want. so please, stop with the spamming of your random questions in our threads.

we dont want to tip toe around the topic of steroids...like so many other forums do. we know it is out there...so we are trying to bring the facts and want women to open up. but your comments are exactly what we dont want. and your negativity is exactly what makes women shy away from talking about it. every forum always talks about the negative side effects of steroids...and we are not saying that there are no negative sides, but no one ever talks about women and steroids in general. they only talk about the bad. let's face it...some women will still use...even after they know the potential risks involved. so if they are going to use, we might as well educate them.

do you know from first hand account that the producers of Bryan Gumble's Real Sports did not air their segment on the 'safety of drug use in men' on women and teens because of lack of research? did you call the producers and ask them? or could they have possibly ran a show on men because in mainstream American, who watches that show, it is men who are interested in steroids, not the average houeswife or soccer mom. plus, i think men are more likely to watch "Real Sports" than women. the producers need to appeal to those who watch the show. the average man will turn that show right off when they start talking about women and drug use.

and tell us more about the 'real info' that siouxcountry talks about. how is it real? how is this info not real? i think you owe leigh an apology. her info is real.

and ummm..let's not be so full of ourselves...im sure you do not 'win' everytime. lol. people who have to remind others that they 'win' everytime and are 'professional shyt starters' usually are...well sorry..but usually are sort of lame. you can say 'shit' too. you dont have to say 'shyt.' a true 'shyt' starter usually will say the correct word.


actually if you are a true "shyt starter" then go into the pit with your nonsense. that is where the real "shit talkers" are. im sure they will welcome you with open arms. but keep the shit talking out of my women's forum.

and sallyanne is not a missy. you can call her by her name. she has repsected you. no need to disrespect her.

SallyAnne
03-29-2009, 02:30 PM
BaaBaa, we can go some rounds talking about drugs. You will lose every time.

Trolling behavior? There is a big difference between insult and controversial delivery.

There is a Women and Steroids thread on SiouxCountry with some real info. You should check it out. There is also a video from Bryant Gumbel's Real Sports (that I can't seem to download at the moment) that discusses the safety of drug use in healthy MEN. The producer was careful to narrow the scope and omit teens and women. Why? Because there is not enough info to substantiate any scientific claims other than the negative side affects.

So missy don't get mad at me. Blame John Romano. Cuz I got some of my info from reading his articles. And, I'm going to speak to "The Boss" again about what I can and cannot say on this thread.

Talking to 'the boss'? lol I actually think it's a good idea. [email protected]

Tell him I said hello. :)

tammyp
03-29-2009, 03:05 PM
god i go away for a weekend and look what happens!

great article.

and i cant say anything to carolyn that hasnt already been said. RXM girls unite!

Sledge
03-29-2009, 03:14 PM
I think your all just upset because your a bunch of manly, giant clitted, beard growing roid freaks. I mean look at all your avatars it's like looking at the all blacks rugby team. Carolyn and I are the only ones who can hold out heads high. Why I remember when i was just a young girl and started using 1000mg test a week. Those were the days

GirlyMuscle
03-29-2009, 03:17 PM
I think your all just upset because your a bunch of manly, giant clitted, beard growing roid freaks. I mean look at all your avatars it's like looking at the all blacks rugby team. Carolyn and I are the only ones who can hold out heads high. Why I remember when i was just a young girl and started using 1000mg test a week. Those were the days

OMG!!!! You KILL me!!!!!:bowdown:

musclegoddess65
03-29-2009, 04:06 PM
I think your all just upset because your a bunch of manly, giant clitted, beard growing roid freaks. I mean look at all your avatars it's like looking at the all blacks rugby team. Carolyn and I are the only ones who can hold out heads high. Why I remember when i was just a young girl and started using 1000mg test a week. Those were the days

damn I try and tape it down so its not so noticeable under clingy clothing and I'm already shaving twice a day.. geesh!


Sledge your hilarious :D

Angela123
03-29-2009, 04:21 PM
let's not totally discredit carolyn. yes it is true...some steroids can cause sides. but the very exaggerated sides, such as shaving twice a day, having a square jawline and large forehead..that does not happen if you are smart with your usage.

winstrol and primo (for SOME women, even a responsible small amount) can cause some (again..we have to use the word SOME, because everyone is different) women's voices to get raspy or low, increase acne, enlarge the clit and increase facial hair...some hairs on the upper lip or chin, no, not a mustache or beard or anything that needs to be shaved but yes some women may experience all that when on those drugs...but that will go away after it has been stopped.

Sledge
03-29-2009, 04:41 PM
I agree with you Ondrea. I didn't have a problem with most of what she wrote. It was the downright rude way she said it and the fact that she used TV segments, A fictional book written to sensationalise the topic, her own health problems that may or may not have been caused by her own use of winstrol and the warning on a Viagra packet as her references. And stated her half arsed opinions as undeniable fact that I had a problem with. I don't know Caroline, never heard of her before today, she might be a nice person but I think she came across as an ignorant, self important, ill-informed person with some sort of chip on her shoulder. But I’d be willing to bet she’s sitting reading this thread and all the information in it posted by all the ladies here and thinks she’s the only one that’s right and she’s been treated unfairly.


These people that think they know everything really piss of those of us that actually do.:D

tammyp
03-29-2009, 05:47 PM
this topic can be added to the list of same sex marriage and abortion. just b/c you dont agree doesnt mean you have 2 shove your ideas up some1s ass.

we heart sledge! :)

sassy69
03-29-2009, 05:48 PM
Can someone link this article on SC? I queried a little & didn't find anything. I'm skeptical because there's just simply not enough medical-based research on women & steroids to make any sort of "truth" article.

BTW its interesting to me that if ANYONE posts something about women & steroids this whole mulitipage flare up occurs. IMO its more than one discussion, and I'm looking forward to Leigh's series. I think its important to be able to get past this first discussion and not get sidetracked w/ the same old arguments.

Some basic points that are well-entrenched and well-illustrated when we go into any discussion about this stuff for women:

- There is little or no medical research on the topic of AAS & women. The biggest reason is that no one would be able to get funding for looking into something that is illegal for one, and also is "just not right" because women are supposed to have estrogen and be pretty and nothing else matters. It still kills me how recently doctors were still just handing out full hysterectomies to fix every little "female problem". It is pretty clear that there is very little formal study behind women & the sex hormones. I'd even venture we don't understand that much about the sex hormones in general.

- When we talk about how women look and what they do to alter their appearances, it often still comes down to whether or not they are "fuckable". It is goddam hard to be female in this world. If you're overweight, you're a "Fat Cow". If you're under weight, you're a "Skinny Bitch". If you are lean and muscular, you are "mannish" -- What were you envisioning when I said "lean and muscular"? Iris Kyle on Ms O day? Or Madonna in any of her videos since the mid-90s? I was actually thinking of Madonna. So its all in perception. And if you are an athlete and you train your body for a certain type of performance, and the consequence is that you look a certain way, unless its big boobs and a tight ass, you are still going to be judged by whether or not someone would "do her". That thought will come up way before anything about the person's performance in her chosen sport. I don't believe that happens to guys very often.

- Pretty much any male hormone-affecting product on the market will be marked as "Not for use by males under 18 or women". That's a marketing CYA. Period. To the average person, of course it makes sense that the typical mom or chick on the street will need an anti-estrogen, e.g. Gaspari Novodex. But then wtf are guys doing w/ anti-estrogens if all the AAS or near-AAS male hormone promoters that convert to estrogen are controlled substances? And if you want to get into the various labels, winstrol is an equine steroid, usually marked "Not for human consumption or use by humans". But everyone seems to be drinking it or injecting it. I think this Dan Duchaine statement sums up the general approach for those who have been in the BB community for a while: "No researcher has made a human bigger than a dumb-shit bodybuilder." We are out on the fringe here. Once you start playing w/ stuff w/o a doctor's guidance, you're self-medicating. You are your very own petri dish. We do it all the time w/ ibuprofen and all the other OTC stuff that has documented bad "sides" as well.

- Along the lines of the above - its easier for guys to do it because they are dealing w/ their dominant sex hormone, there's more research out there, and there are lots more guys talking about it / who are willing to talk about it openly than there are women, and there's a whole lot less stigma associated w/ even having the discussion. Seriously -- all day long we talk about how bad acne & swollen clits are for women, when you can go to any muscle board / AAS discussion and see how many posts there are about sexual dysfunction (e.g. deca dick), depression, aggression, gyno, etc. But they are discussions that don't include things like "BRO! STEROIDS ARE BAD! YOU"RE MUTILATING YOURSELF (e.g. growing bitch tits)! DON"T DO IT!" So the discusion remains a discussion.

- So where I was trying to go w/ the above item, women have a tendency to defer their knowledge to someone else who will "take care of them". E.g. they get their information from some guy - their bf/so/hubby/buddy at the gym who told them "just take some winny - it will lean you out & tone you up". Often this statement is coming w/ the best intentions in mind to help said female "lose weight", "tighten up", "I want to look like *insert your favorite fitness girl*". So then the guy procures said chemical enhancement for his lovely lady, and she just starts popping or shooting because "my bf/so/hubby/guy at the gym knows alot about steroids and he'd never do anything to hurt me/ I trust him". Except loving man can't speak for loving lady's endocrine / reproductive system and can only make a hopeful guess at the results. I think most of you guys know I've been militant about encouraging women to educate themselves before sticking stuff in their bodies. Because it is their own personal chemistry experiment. There is no place to go read up on everything, there's no medical literature, and there's very few places even online you can find this stuff. So you do have to go ask around, read everything you can find, and make intelligent decisions for yourself. It is a crapshoot when you play on the dark side. That's the risk you have to be willing to accept when you go there. I hear a lot of "I'll do whatever it takes" to get on stage for some competition date. That's ignorant if you have no idea about what you are planning to stick in your body that will alter your natural hormone profile. That's just frigging stupid. But people will do it anyway.

- You guys tell me if this isn't true - you lose some weight & decide you want to compete. For some people its enough to just get on stage to acknowledge their achievements. Others have a nice long history of weight training and want to bring it to a new level. But so many are like "I've been training for 10 months already. I want to compete. What should I take?" Because they hear about other women using, so they feel its appropriate & required to compete. Only answer I'd have for them is "honey, get your ass back in the gym for another two years, do a nice big fat bulker diet and come talk to me then.". Its a journey, not a "season". So there's also the question of "when" is it appropriate to even consider cycling. IMO it has a lot to do w/ first establishing a consistent & producing diet & training program already. No insta-muscle allowed.

.. OK so I've ranted. But these are the usual things that come up w/ this topic. I think Leigh addressed the foundation stuff. Aside from the legal aspect of things, it is still a personal and very individual decision to get involved, just like it is when people chose to play w/ recreational drugs, OTC drugs, pretty much anything that induces a change in your body. There is no one set of rules for anything, and because we are operating in an "extreme sport" of sorts, people are always pushing the edges because there are no guidelines except the ones we enforce on ourselves. I have to admit that, particularly in figure, the move away from rewarding the harder physiques is definitely going to make use of AAS a potentially negative strategy on your ability to place high. But I still think many girls feel they have to use the chemicals because they completely miss the whole point behind & power of diet & training. I doubt it will ever STOP the use of AAS by women but it will probably remove the motivation to use at least the more aggressive compounds by those who have very little background & time spent in the gym to begin with.

So I guess this brings us down to a side question of what is the best way for this topic to be discussed? I think a series of articles is a great way to start. I think also that being patient in receiving these articles will go a long way towards intelligent discussion of it vs going to the very cliche at this point, other end of the horror stories as well. Like Bryant Gumbel noted in that video linked above - if steroids are so bad, where are the bodies? But intelligence about making a decision to go there, and also putting in the time w/ the foundations of fitness - diet & training, before expecting quicky fixes from the steroids, is critical.

Hope this didnt' sound preachy or rambling .. its just this whole discussion goes the same way every freeking time and it gets soooooo old. I am still not sure that women are any more informed or not as a result. Actually, the biggest win would be if the takeaway was that steroids aren't all that great, but diet & training are guaranteed ways to get you results!

Skeptic
03-29-2009, 06:02 PM
I <3 Sassy (and Sledge).

Mercury
03-29-2009, 06:25 PM
Great post, Sassy. :)

MsGuns
03-29-2009, 06:51 PM
SC.com thread
http://siouxcountry.com/showthread.php?t=6316

sassy69
03-29-2009, 07:23 PM
SC.com thread
http://siouxcountry.com/showthread.php?t=6316

Thx Drex! Its a good discussion, albeit more of the same. BTW it was nice to see W6 chime in!

BTW if you want to know something about the duration of presence of any particular compound, just google the half-life and detection time of whatever compound. There's some guideance on the hows of this stuff as well. E.g the half-life will tell you when half of the dose of whatever has been played out. What you'll notice for ex, anavar has a half-life of 9 hrs. So people recommend splitting the dose in half over the course of the day so you are reducing the degree of dose-> compound clears your system -> next dose ---this means spikes in your system from the new dose each time, vs keeping the compound levels more even over the course of the day. A lot of what we do in this sport is about making slow changes and keeping to a state of consistency vs extreme swings each day - e.g. 4 hrs of cardio one day to make up for missing 2 hrs on the previous day? OK that's a little extreme, but our bodies operate on consistency in the environment and are designed to respond to localized hiccups w/ small adjustments. If you make an extreme change, the body will respond w/ an opposite extreme change to find a balance.

Detection time will tell you for how long from your last dose the compound is still detectable in your body. So this would give you an idea of for how long, in the extreme, you could be experiencing sides. The half-life will also tell you this in terms of how quickly the bulk of the dose will be in your system. So this is why women prefer shorter half-life compounds so that if the sides are harsh, they clear quickly vs being stuck w/ them for extended periods. And when the sides do appear, there's nothing you can take to counter them or make them stop. You just have to ride out whatever is still in your system. Examples of sides where this could be inconvenient or freak you out would be hairloss. Primo is a great example. Primo has a half-life of about 10 days (altho I've seen ranges from 5-12 days... so picking the most commonly seen one) and a detection time of 4-5 weeks. Primo isn't necessarily a "short" half-life, but people like it because it doens't convert to estrogen and is a good "cutter" for that reason. Anyway, it takes about 5 weeks for your "effects" to "start" - both sides & benefits - it is notorious for producing hairloss. Some may feel this is acceptable, but it will continue for the duration of the cycle and then up to another month and a half afterwards. So you need to be prepared to deal w/ it. (BTW, the recommended protocol for dealing w/ the hairloss, at least to a degree, is to use 1-2% Nizoral shampoo to help deal w/ the DHT...)

So, Leigh.. this brings up another good article, if you want to go down this road, but w/ women in mind as the audience - the "building" of a cycle w/ consideration to the dosing, duration of sides, when sides show up, etc. I really don't know if there is a lot of science-based guidance on this or its all rule of thumb from people's own experience? Just a thought.

tight booty
03-29-2009, 08:10 PM
I am a lifetime Natty and intend to stay that way, however this thread is very much needed! Morals and being judgemental need not apply here. Women are going to use aas if their mind is made up and they need the best advice possible! I have seen it so many times on previous forums...women asking men what doses etc to use and men guessing or telling them what they themselves take etc.

BadBoy
03-30-2009, 01:18 PM
Agreed with GirlyMuscle...

People should feel free to debate the moral issues, but not in a thread that's intended to inform.

Great stuff, Leigh (and others).

esplendido
03-30-2009, 02:50 PM
I, for one, like a fit female body. I always have. I remember watching the women sprinters train on my track team in High School, admiring their lean upper bodies and muscular legs. I don't like soft women.....even if they have a good figure.

That being said, I think the objection many men have with muscular women is not the look (except masculine facial features, which have to do more with diet than AAS), but the fact that women apparently are intruding on a male-dominated territory....being the strong one in a relationship. Most men won't admit it, but they want their women to be subordinate in matters of strength, whether it be physical or mental. How many men are truned off by a smart woman? Same as with a muscular woman.

"Fuckable" also means submissive. A man wants to feel like he's a king in the sex department. (Of course, there are those who like to be dominated). He wants the woman to "cream" over him and think he's the best lover she's ever had. A muscular woman can be perceived as a "top", and that's threatening to many men, especially if a woman takes control of her own satisfaction during sex. Now I know there will be men on this board who will disagree with me, but you are a minority both in the exception and in being a bber. The general population has a more "classical" view of the roles for men and women.

Lastly, imagine the average male weight lifting enthusiast, the one that is the majority of support for the BBing mags, looking at a woman who can lift the same or heavier weight, has better proportions, and is probably more muscular than he. What does that do to his ego?

Education is a premium, and the women need to know what and how from an educated point of view. The negatives are a part of that but shouldn't be a platform in this discussion....but they should be discussed, as they are in the men's forums.

machine
03-30-2009, 03:12 PM
Like why are some of these women afraid to talk about using testosterone when they look like they eat it for breakfast, lunch and dinner? Sorry. Had to go there.

THE MEDIA PLAIN AND SIMPLE. They tell half truths and attempt to put AAS users on the same level and heroine addicts. Too many people think if you take AAS you will end up in the ER, worse yet, people still think creatine can give you a heart attack!!!!!

sassy69
03-30-2009, 03:37 PM
THE MEDIA PLAIN AND SIMPLE. They tell half truths and attempt to put AAS users on the same level and heroine addicts. Too many people think if you take AAS you will end up in the ER, worse yet, people still think creatine can give you a heart attack!!!!!

Even before you get to that point, its more like OMG WOMEN WHO LOOK LIKE MEN????!!!!?!?!!! That's not natural I'd never fuck that.

That's about as far as the thought goes for women. Period.

Andersen
03-30-2009, 04:02 PM
Maybe all women should just go natural.

Angela123
03-30-2009, 04:06 PM
yes e....that is an option...but it is not a realistic option. you know that will never happen.

Skeptic
03-30-2009, 04:32 PM
I, for one, like a fit female body. I always have. I remember watching the women sprinters train on my track team in High School, admiring their lean upper bodies and muscular legs. I don't like soft women.....even if they have a good figure.

Me too.


That being said, I think the objection many men have with muscular women is not the look (except masculine facial features, which have to do more with diet than AAS), but the fact that women apparently are intruding on a male-dominated territory....being the strong one in a relationship. Most men won't admit it, but they want their women to be subordinate in matters of strength, whether it be physical or mental. How many men are truned off by a smart woman? Same as with a muscular woman.

"Fuckable" also means submissive. A man wants to feel like he's a king in the sex department. (Of course, there are those who like to be dominated). He wants the woman to "cream" over him and think he's the best lover she's ever had. A muscular woman can be perceived as a "top", and that's threatening to many men, especially if a woman takes control of her own satisfaction during sex. Now I know there will be men on this board who will disagree with me, but you are a minority both in the exception and in being a bber. The general population has a more "classical" view of the roles for men and women.

Lastly, imagine the average male weight lifting enthusiast, the one that is the majority of support for the BBing mags, looking at a woman who can lift the same or heavier weight, has better proportions, and is probably more muscular than he. What does that do to his ego?

Education is a premium, and the women need to know what and how from an educated point of view. The negatives are a part of that but shouldn't be a platform in this discussion....but they should be discussed, as they are in the men's forums.

This all sounds reasonable, but I hope you are wrong. Really, this is troglodyte behavior imo.

I frequently show pictures of FBB to my 2 teenage sons. I asked them what they like most: they have no idea, can't articulate it. I asked them what they liked least: the man faces.

Skeptic
03-30-2009, 04:35 PM
Even before you get to that point, its more like OMG WOMEN WHO LOOK LIKE MEN????!!!!?!?!!! That's not natural I'd never fuck that.

That's about as far as the thought goes for women. Period.

That's it in a nutshell: a male vision of beauty is somehow defining a female sport. Bizarre.

Suzanne
03-30-2009, 04:49 PM
I, for one, like a fit female body. I always have. I remember watching the women sprinters train on my track team in High School, admiring their lean upper bodies and muscular legs. I don't like soft women.....even if they have a good figure.

That being said, I think the objection many men have with muscular women is not the look (except masculine facial features, which have to do more with diet than AAS), but the fact that women apparently are intruding on a male-dominated territory....being the strong one in a relationship. Most men won't admit it, but they want their women to be subordinate in matters of strength, whether it be physical or mental. How many men are truned off by a smart woman? Same as with a muscular woman.

"Fuckable" also means submissive. A man wants to feel like he's a king in the sex department. (Of course, there are those who like to be dominated). He wants the woman to "cream" over him and think he's the best lover she's ever had. A muscular woman can be perceived as a "top", and that's threatening to many men, especially if a woman takes control of her own satisfaction during sex. Now I know there will be men on this board who will disagree with me, but you are a minority both in the exception and in being a bber. The general population has a more "classical" view of the roles for men and women.

Lastly, imagine the average male weight lifting enthusiast, the one that is the majority of support for the BBing mags, looking at a woman who can lift the same or heavier weight, has better proportions, and is probably more muscular than he. What does that do to his ego?

Education is a premium, and the women need to know what and how from an educated point of view. The negatives are a part of that but shouldn't be a platform in this discussion....but they should be discussed, as they are in the men's forums.

hit the nail on the head

Sledge
03-30-2009, 05:23 PM
I think Sassy hit the nail on the head.

It all comes down to fuckability. Honestly it pisses me off. I don't look at Branch Warren and think Gee I wouldn't want to fuck him. So why would I look at a female BB and judge her on fuckability. And conversley I'm sure Iris Kyle dosen't stop before she hit's the gym and say to her self maybe I should stop this, Sledge might think I'm manly and not want to fuck me. If I want to see fuckability I'll go get playboy or go to a bikini comp or strip club, if I want to look at bodybuilding I'll come to RxMuscle. And realy much the same as mens BB if you want to be at the top of the game even at an amature level you need to be doing a little extra something.

partsRheavy
03-30-2009, 05:55 PM
Thanks for the discussion here.

First, let me explain that I'm female and in my 40s. I've lifted about 2 years (naturally). I'm actually open to using something at some point in the future, but I believe the rule-of-thumb of 2-5+ years of lifting experience along with having workouts and diet well sorted out in advance applies to women as well as men with regard to AAS. I'm also aware that because of my age, at some point I'll be dealing with strength declines. Fortunately this hasn't happened yet. :)

I really enjoy lifting.

This subject is indeed controversial with regard to the role of women, but the subject needs to be opened up.

Even just as a proportion of people who pick up weights that are heavy enough to be effective in a gym, women are probably less than 5 or 10% of overall lifters. There are so many women who won't even pick up a weight greater than 10 lbs. They're largely reluctant to do so because of vehemently-expressed male opinion, often directed against female bodybuilders.

Over on a board that shall remain nameless, there has recently been a great deal of abusive remarks directed against women bodybuilders. It started with the usual stuff about steroid use, but spread from there. The last straw was when one guy with his mind somewhere in the 1800's stated that women belong in the kitchen and not even lifting (!!!).

I contested that remark and noted that I believe that forum is becoming hostile against women lifters (including bodybuilders). I posted that they may lose supplement and magazine sales from women as a result. The guys tried to pawn the remark off as "awww, don't mind him, he just likes to push people's buttons." I could tell that they sort of supported the hostility against women but weren't willing to say that sort of thing themselves. Instead, they quietly chuckle when the "extremist" spoke his mind. Sort of a "silent majority" thing that still serves to drive women away.

If I see women at that other forum who need information of a sensitive nature or info about contest prep, I've PM'ed them to come here so they hopefully won't run into that buzzsaw of prejudice.

To get back to the subject at hand. I think the only way the "taboo" will be broken is when women feel that they can openly post things like cycle logs detailing, over the course of a cycle, everything from desired results to what their workouts were like to side effects to measurements and weight etc. I've only read one or two actual detailed cycle logs from women, whereas the guys write them all the time.

I think women are very reluctant to post cycle logs because they are afraid they will get condemning remarks. It is, after all, "coming out" about use when someone posts a cycle log!

A lot of the men who post cycle logs haven't ever competed or don't plan to compete for a while. Some are recreational lifters while others are competitors. Sometimes they aren't even really prepared for their cycles, whether it's for OTC prohormones or actual AAS. Not saying this is right, but saying it's a lot more accepted for men.

I think it comes down to forum leadership about how to deal with this subject. I do think that if women are condemned with regard to steroid use, the men should be condemned as well (after all it is illegal except for OTC prohormones). Perhaps some forums should close their "steroid" sections altogether or convert them to discussion of legally-sold prohormone type things only.

If there's a space at a forum to discuss steroid use, it's up to the forum leadership to ensure that women feel OK posting something like a cycle log. I really applaud this forum for trying to open up the subject. :beerbang:

I guess if things like female cycle logs can't be done in an open forum it might be possible to do something like this in a more restricted format. But that would halfway defeat the purpose. When I was a kid, Ms. magazine was sitting out openly on the tables in the library! :D

sassy69
03-30-2009, 06:36 PM
^^ Pretty much sums up the whole experience. But I generally don't think you're going to have openly posting cycles for women. I'm aware of maybe one other lady online who posts fairly openly about cycle info. As Esplendido noted, a huge part of it is education, but it also comes w/ the big fat caveat that people take information they find & apply it responsibly, which makes it 'knowledge". I can tell you about plenty of women who just want to know what cycle will 'lean them out', w/ no regard for understanding the basics of nutrition, diet, training, consistency & responsibility. To that end I don't like posting basic cycles because, women also have that tendency to be looking for the quicky fix to "lose weight" and not put in the time in the gym. Just like you note, many guys, probably the preponderance of guys who cycle, don't compete and can be just as ignorant in their pursuit of quicky muscle.

Its sort of a no-win. Having been on several boards over the last 10 yrs, the state of things has changed very little. I'd say there is more PM-based / not out in the open knowledge exchanged among the ladies. I'd like to say that if I was able to tell someone directly (vs generically in a post) to either use a particular cycle or opted to not give cycle info and rather point them to a particular diet / training route to change the perception that a cycle is the only way to achieve whatever goal, to using the appropriate approach w/ diet & training first. You're absolutlely taking the correct approach w/ waiting. Its not about telling someone they "can't", because they are probably more likely to go somehwhere else to get bad information & do it anyway. W/ "education" comes the whole picture. YOu need to spend time w/ diet & training to learn the discipline of it as well as how your body responds. And for time spent, that is the more maintainable, doable, safe approach and a foundation on which to apply supplementation at some later date. But people rarely want to do that.

I hate to say it, women aren't the smartest people when driven by a particular desire, not that guys are always either. But its usually the wrong expectation of AAS that drives the desire to use, and the person still manages to completely miss the point of diet & training, recovery & consistency in the whole program to get results.

Tatyana
03-30-2009, 06:46 PM
Legality is a big issue as well.

I wonder if there are some women who post on boards in countries where steroids are legal to possess have the same issues.

Dan_Manslaughter
03-30-2009, 06:57 PM
Interesting discussion. I'm a male so my opinion really doesn't matter.. However on the issue of anabolics and women taking them I really could care less. If they would like to indulge in muscle building drugs and know the consequences then I find it hypocritical to lambaste females for taking them and not men (which is often the case). Pretty much live and let live. There's alot of really great female bodybuilders who i'm sure take drugs and display none of the side effects.They aren't any less accomplished and i don't respect them any less. On the flip side I had a female boss when I was 15, working at a greek restaurant and she had a full grown beard (and it was all natural baby).

partsRheavy
03-30-2009, 09:16 PM
Yep, this is so true! I've been telling some out-of-state friends of mine who want to buy a house to postpone their purchase for a few months because the market is still going down. They're pre-qualified and all. The wife wanted to purchase back in January or February. Fortunately the husband has been listening to me (and to his better instincts) and they have delayed the purchase to keep looking a while longer. I estimate they have saved perhaps $15,000 just by waiting between January and now as more and more foreclosures have come onto the market. :D

We women sometimes have a problem with those impulsive decisions.

You're on fire over in the bikini thread! :beerbang: I agree so much with you! The guys train years and years before they ever compete. Should be the same for women...

I still think it would be neat if women got brave enough to log their lifts and what happens during a basic cycle of something that's well known already i.e. low dose anavar.



I hate to say it, women aren't the smartest people when driven by a particular desire, not that guys are always either. But its usually the wrong expectation of AAS that drives the desire to use, and the person still manages to completely miss the point of diet & training, recovery & consistency in the whole program to get results.

dvsness
03-31-2009, 09:59 AM
The last straw was when one guy with his mind somewhere in the 1800's stated that women belong in the kitchen and not even lifting (!!!).

That sounds eerily familiar. :o

lil mama
03-31-2009, 10:35 AM
Hi Sassy69, hope all is well in your neck of the woods, just want to say once again that this is why I adore you cause your very honest and you tell it like it is. Talking about steroids is still somewhat of a taboo for women but for men they tend to be more up front with it and you see that on the forums but when women do we get this :spank: . Truth is it's not acceptable by many males and sum females, so what is a female individual to do. It's darn if you do and darn it you don't and what I mean by darn if you don't is that if you don't get educated on the issue you can be heading for some bad results so it's imperative that as women we educate ourselves and if your unsure of the process that your about to embark in that we have places in the forums to go to and ask questions and get answers that will help with the decisions of usage or no usage and this is a good thing because we have people like yourself that can help us make knowledgeable choices, and like you have stated many times before nothing beats a sound nutrition plan and consistent training for several years before one decides to take it to the next step. So Sassy69 THANK YOU:)


^^ Pretty much sums up the whole experience. But I generally don't think you're going to have openly posting cycles for women. I'm aware of maybe one other lady online who posts fairly openly about cycle info. As Esplendido noted, a huge part of it is education, but it also comes w/ the big fat caveat that people take information they find & apply it responsibly, which makes it 'knowledge". I can tell you about plenty of women who just want to know what cycle will 'lean them out', w/ no regard for understanding the basics of nutrition, diet, training, consistency & responsibility. To that end I don't like posting basic cycles because, women also have that tendency to be looking for the quicky fix to "lose weight" and not put in the time in the gym. Just like you note, many guys, probably the preponderance of guys who cycle, don't compete and can be just as ignorant in their pursuit of quicky muscle.

Its sort of a no-win. Having been on several boards over the last 10 yrs, the state of things has changed very little. I'd say there is more PM-based / not out in the open knowledge exchanged among the ladies. I'd like to say that if I was able to tell someone directly (vs generically in a post) to either use a particular cycle or opted to not give cycle info and rather point them to a particular diet / training route to change the perception that a cycle is the only way to achieve whatever goal, to using the appropriate approach w/ diet & training first. You're absolutlely taking the correct approach w/ waiting. Its not about telling someone they "can't", because they are probably more likely to go somehwhere else to get bad information & do it anyway. W/ "education" comes the whole picture. YOu need to spend time w/ diet & training to learn the discipline of it as well as how your body responds. And for time spent, that is the more maintainable, doable, safe approach and a foundation on which to apply supplementation at some later date. But people rarely want to do that.

I hate to say it, women aren't the smartest people when driven by a particular desire, not that guys are always either. But its usually the wrong expectation of AAS that drives the desire to use, and the person still manages to completely miss the point of diet & training, recovery & consistency in the whole program to get results.

sassy69
03-31-2009, 11:58 AM
Hi Sassy69, hope all is well in your neck of the woods, just want to say once again that this is why I adore you cause your very honest and you tell it like it is. Talking about steroids is still somewhat of a taboo for women but for men they tend to be more up front with it and you see that on the forums but when women do we get this :spank: . Truth is it's not acceptable by many males and sum females, so what is a female individual to do. It's darn if you do and darn it you don't and what I mean by darn if you don't is that if you don't get educated on the issue you can be heading for some bad results so it's imperative that as women we educate ourselves and if your unsure of the process that your about to embark in that we have places in the forums to go to and ask questions and get answers that will help with the decisions of usage or no usage and this is a good thing because we have people like yourself that can help us make knowledgeable choices, and like you have stated many times before nothing beats a sound nutrition plan and consistent training for several years before one decides to take it to the next step. So Sassy69 THANK YOU:)


Hey Beni :bowdown: Well, women shouldn't have to get :spank: (unless we like it...) but still at the end of the day its personal responsibility, as it is w/ anything. Respect your body. Its sad the way things are, but its just one of many things. Not to sound like oh poor us women in this male-dominated society, but it is what it is. Its most important to respect yourself, take responsibility for yourself and achieve what you want. We know we're strong & intelligent - we prove it every day on here. So we can help da sistahs out when they do come looking for some intelligence. I guess "grass roots" is about the only way its going to work.

Bigboi
03-31-2009, 04:46 PM
I think the article is great. Knowledge is the best thing to have for anyone embarking on gear use. I for one don't really give a shit if a female use or how strong she is, and no don't like to be dominated in bed either. Its bbing, there are steroids involved.

Lee Penman
04-01-2009, 10:08 AM
Sassy...I tried to private message you but my new internet connection is not working properly. Could you e mail me directly at [email protected] I have an article proposal for you

Lee Penman
04-01-2009, 10:14 AM
SallyAnn...can you e mail me at [email protected] regarding a forthcoming article.
Thanks!

Lee Penman
04-01-2009, 10:18 AM
Has anyone read "Chemical Pink" by Katie Arnoldi? It's a fabulous book if you want to know about drug cycles for women or first-hand discussion about a women lured into drug use and the regrets that followed.

Fear is an illusion. Why be afraid to discuss something you are proud of doing?

I know lots of women who have explored drugs, and more than few wish they had never gone there. The negatives outweighed the positives.

Yes, I do consider some forms of bodybuilding to be self-mutilation.

Thanks, Tayana for pointing out the info about Winstrol.

I think the reason Leigh wrote the article was an attempt to educate and open up discussion. My comments are based on the discussions real people have about the subject but are reluctant to say because of a threat of being censored. So I ask again, why would any woman consider adding testosterone to her drug cocktail?

Mr. Sledge, are you a doctor of some sort? Even if you were you would be considered godly if you claim to have some greater understaning of the intricate female endocrine system than a biochemist or me, for that matter because I am a woman. And a walking lab rat who can talk about personal experiences. What drugs do you use to stop your period? I think Danazol is wonderful and plan to write an article about it. There are far less side affects than the more common HRT's prescribed. Birth control pills worked well at first but later proved counterproductive during contest prep.

I am Captain-Sav-a-Hoe in the flesh. But I only save those who want to be saved.
Your use of Danazol is interesting. Can you e mail me at [email protected] to talk about this for a forthcoming article?

sassy69
04-01-2009, 11:13 AM
sassy...i tried to private message you but my new internet connection is not working properly. Could you e mail me directly at [email protected] i have an article proposal for you

ygm:)

SallyAnne
04-01-2009, 09:43 PM
SallyAnn...can you e mail me at [email protected] regarding a forthcoming article.
Thanks!

I'll email you. :) I'm out of town right now and will be back to my home computer by Saturday.

Lee Penman
04-02-2009, 12:09 AM
I'll email you. :) I'm out of town right now and will be back to my home computer by Saturday.
Great thanks!

BadBoy
04-02-2009, 11:46 AM
How empowering it is when a woman can say to a man "suck my dick" and mean it!

Good question.

Fast forward to 0:22:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpMPFGBtE7Q

1-ad
04-05-2009, 09:42 PM
I think Sassy hit the nail on the head.

It all comes down to fuckability. Honestly it pisses me off. I don't look at Branch Warren and think Gee I wouldn't want to fuck him. So why would I look at a female BB and judge her on fuckability.



Because Branch Warren still looks like a guy. Some FBBs (not at all, and not all the time) don't look quite like regular women facially and in some other ways perhaps, and I say that as massive fan of FBB/female physique, who to me are really sexy wonderful women.


However much Test and GH he's taking doesn't interfere with how you read Branch Warren overall (and it's interesting you picked BW as I think he's an extremely ugly guy with some of the worst possible things going for his image), but it can interfere with how we read women, and therefore even female physique, and that's not just an issue of fuckable.


This is a very complex thing though and there are no absolutes here.


I totally support all FBB's in what they are doing overall, and fully respect what they have accomplished, but some women out there can look...I guess somewhat compromised in some ways as a result of the drugs in a way that Branch Warren just doesn't.


Now I'm not saying women shouldn't be allowed to look as they wish, that's not the debate, the issue is you can't then expect people not to have a view about some of it that may not be perceived to be flattering or just not working on some level. And that's a different issue from any that pertain to health or drug culture.


It's a similar thing with 'oh bb women are too scary for a guy'. Nothing could be further from the truth. Maybe for some, but a lot of guys love women in shape, it's tremendous attractive and sexy, but there's a difference between gender roles which some people are muddling up with sexual fantasies and conflating them as the same thing when they are not.

The other thing here is the gushing responses to this article that's appeared on Dave's site. Well I read the article and frankly didn't think it said anything new or enlightening at all on the subject. In fact I though it was not a particularly strong article.

And I suspect some of these positive responses are more to do with the fact the article exists at all.

tammyp
04-06-2009, 05:58 AM
ive said it a million times....its use and not abuse. no amount of drugs will take someone will crappy genetics and make them into a top pro bber. You need the foundation 1st and foremost. a little can go along way with a woman that has a good physique already.

Carolyn Bryant
04-06-2009, 02:02 PM
Hey Ondrea. Thanks for the call of respect. I can hold my own. I welcome the challenge to anything I say. As long we engage in healthy debate and you don't get racial or talk about my family I'm good. I believe in drug use. I have an arsenal of drugs in my medicine cabinet. Most of them are to keep me from killing people.

No, I don't plan on using anyone's post in my articles. My article will focus on women going through sexual reassignment. There is a reason medical porfessionals take them through a slow progression. And it is much easier to turn a man into a woman because the female endocrine system is so dayum complicated. I will also discuss how transvestites and drag performers celebrate and perfect femininity. They are all upset about you people saying the word has no meaning. RuPaul is my idol!

I just looked at Natalie Portman's video. I thought it was great. Perhaps you guys will find her reference to suck my dick offensive, too.

Last thing I'm going to say about women using androgens. I'm waiting for someone's ovaries to drop down and form balls so medical researchers will find a reason to investigate the steroid issue more seriously. The reason why you won't find much postive, open discussion about women using androgens is because there isn't any. Me and other women my age are fighting the aging process. You'll never convince us that losing our hair and wrinkled skin will ever be positive. We get depressed. Sometimes suicidal. Thus, the call for even more drugs.

tank315
04-09-2009, 10:19 AM
I personally am a fan of FBB. I think there is a difference in judging a fbb and the average woman. However, we all are in this thing some people call a subculture so i don't have a problem with a fbb using the gas. Mainstream however, is not so one must be prepared to get looks, questions and all that comes with gas abuse! My wife uses very minimal and still is damn sexy but we all know that some girls walking around the arnolds this past march just looked nasty. Don't get me wrong, it's their choice but they must allow those of us who are on their side to say to them TONE IT DOWN! Mainstream will be much more harsh than us who are in the know. Lastly, If you look like a man(AAS ABUSE) and you are not, then it's too much for mainstream to except. So play with gas at your own risk, you just better have thick skin!

heavyiron
04-10-2009, 02:27 PM
I wish this topic was more out in the open. It is so hard to get this type of info from a reliable source. I spent many months just trying to research a simple anavar cycle a couple years ago and the info was almost non existent. Thank you to all the ladies who post their experiences both negative and positive so we can make more informed decisions.

btw, I love women with muscle =)

Lee Penman
04-11-2009, 12:21 AM
I wish this topic was more out in the open. It is so hard to get this type of info from a reliable source. I spent many months just trying to research a simple anavar cycle a couple years ago and the info was almost non existent. Thank you to all the ladies who post their experiences both negative and positive so we can make more informed decisions.

btw, I love women with muscle =)
Thank you for this comment. Believe me, my plan is to really open up discussion in this area and to inform women as to steroid use. Secrecy is a weakness, knowledge leads to empowerment...and lies are a waste of breath and do not help anyone.
The truth has to be told...and will be on RX!

heavyiron
04-13-2009, 12:15 PM
I will be following the posts!

Thank you