dave palumbos keto diet - show me pros who are successful with the approach?

[Australian 5'7 Guy]

who arent female...

I like dave, funny guy, entertaining, but george farrahs carbs, 20 min cardio, tren and dnp is the way to go

:D

[Také-Nori]

Ben White.

Serious.

[Bryan Hildebrand]

tony freeman. best conditioning he ever had. he wasnt holding enough water which resulted in him coming in lighter than he wanted... but he agrees its his best conditioning.

[Voland]

who arent female...

I like dave, funny guy, entertaining, but george farrahs carbs, 20 min cardio, tren and dnp is the way to go

:D

Good luck with that. You'll wait enernally for a response.

Daves method is by far the worse method. No carbs, on top of that you starve, on top of that you gotta do tons of cardio. To end up looking small and flat on stage. No thanks.

[Rambo2]

Ben White.

Serious.

yep!

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Yv6EmBE71sA/TEKyJkrvNpI/AAAAAAAAC24/-2iKaU7qpSY/s320/Ben+White+tampa+pro+2010.jpg

[thachozenonebx]

I do think the keto diet works but I do question its success rate for professional bodybuilders where mass is as important as conditioning. Amateur shows where often times conditioning is king, keto seems to be the right game plan but once you step onstage with the BIG BOYS, it does seem as if it doesnt allow for the competitor to stand toe to toe mass wise with non keto dieters.

I have followed keto before and it works but I am just a gym rat not an elite level pro

[Voland]

I do think the keto diet works but I do question its success rate for professional bodybuilders where mass is as important as conditioning. Amateur shows where often times conditioning is king, keto seems to be the right game plan but once you step onstage with the BIG BOYS, it does seem as if it doesnt allow for the competitor to stand toe to toe mass wise with non keto dieters.

I have followed keto before and it works but I am just a gym rat not an elite level pro

Exactly keto works for the average gym rat, joe schmoe or fattie miss mary. Its a recipe for failure for a pro bodybuilder whose aim is to come in as shredded, dry AND big and full as possible. Keto does not deliver much less under Palumbos guidance which is close to non because he's go sooooo many clients -99% are average people with average goals, gullible and easy to push some supps on them- that can't give enough attention no non of them.

[Diggy]

Do pros us slin during contest prep? I have no idea how that works, do you need carbs to use slin?

Im asking...

[BuffGuy]

depends on the body.. but George's more carbs... less cario.. more drugs..
hey maybe George has a secret drug cocktail that he knows that no one else knows.... lol

[x100696]

Ya'll are dumbasses if you don't think KETO works. I'm not saying it's the best formula for everyone but you haven't done your homework if you honestly don't think it doesn't work.

[nsp]

a secret drug cocktail that he knows that no one else knows.... lol

lol, I remember back in high school thinkning that's what seperated the pro's from joe's. It gave me hope thinking that was all I needed was to find the "special cocktail" and BAMB, I could be in Flex magazine blasting the iron with Lee Priest all dream tanned up making snarling faces at each other. But realistically that's not the case. I can count the number of pro's on only one hand who've spoke openly with me about AAS and it seems there really is no special, exotic, secret, ninja, make you wanna slap yo momma formula. At the end of the day I believe it all comes down to genetics, knowing your body (ie, responce to food, training and AAS), pushing yourself to the limit based off what you know about your body, genetics and genetic aaaaannnnddd genetics........ but mainly......genetics.

[x100696]

^^^This. Everyond wants to believe that if they took the same amount of stuff some of the pros do they would look the same. Do ya'll remember KAI was a world natural champion before he switched over?

[5 Grams year round baby]

It's pretty simple, the genetic freaks don't have to push the boundaries too far with gear, even though they still abuse the shit out of it... and the guys without the insane genetics have to push the boundaries above and beyond and abuse a little more to get close to the same results. The shape your body takes is where the genetics come into play in my opinion. The size will come with enough abuse for almost anybody (assuming food and training is on par.)

[heftizzle]

Victor was with Dave for a while..didn't he win the AC or place in the top 6 while he was with Dave? I know it somewhere during those years. He also did wonders with Toney Freeman, and Toney's placing have not been the same since. Iris Kyle also does some type of Keto...she does not privi most to that info though, but she does no carbs.

[ColdHardTruth]

I'll let you know when I can think of one.

[Swede]

so the hundreds of women hes prepped doesnt all of a sudden count?

Show someone thats been sucessfull with Farahs approach that isn't a male

[Swede]

Ben white, tony freeman on the top of my head. And countless amateurs ive seen post here thats done daves diet

[Diggy]

so the hundreds of women hes prepped doesnt all of a sudden count?

Show someone thats been sucessfull with Farahs approach that isn't a male

Tammy p I think is prepped by george

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

[Steve56]

he also worked with Dave Watson who just got his pro card in the masters and was shredded and dry yesterday at the new york pro!....Juan has worked with dave from the start as well

[heftizzle]

We can't forge that Evan C has never had a bad result when working with Dave.

[sweetjane57]

Tammy p I think is prepped by george

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

Tammy P and Amber Defransesco(won FBB Overall at 2010 National's) that I can think of.

[Marijan Lipsinic]

lol, I remember back in high school thinkning that's what seperated the pro's from joe's. It gave me hope thinking that was all I needed was to find the "special cocktail" and BAMB, I could be in Flex magazine blasting the iron with Lee Priest all dream tanned up making snarling faces at each other. But realistically that's not the case. I can count the number of pro's on only one hand who've spoke openly with me about AAS and it seems there really is no special, exotic, secret, ninja, make you wanna slap yo momma formula. At the end of the day I believe it all comes down to genetics, knowing your body (ie, responce to food, training and AAS), pushing yourself to the limit based off what you know about your body, genetics and genetic aaaaannnnddd genetics........ but mainly......genetics.

That.

[big nut]

Good luck with that. You'll wait enernally for a response.

Daves method is by far the worse method. No carbs, on top of that you starve, on top of that you gotta do tons of cardio. To end up looking small and flat on stage. No thanks.

come on guys...dave doesn't only do keto diets.

for example, see mike liberatore, juan morel...

[big nut]

depends on the body.. but George's more carbs... less cario.. more drugs..
hey maybe George has a secret drug cocktail that he knows that no one else knows.... lol

this has been discussed in threads in the past. many of georges clients have chimed in, and explained their diets, and shot down the dnp angle most people think he uses.

[Taylor Normandeau]

I love how everyone assumes Farah uses way more drugs and DNP even though all of his clients say otherwise. ALL OF THEM. Don't you think if it was true, one of his thousands of clients would slip about the drug use and DNP?

DNP is bullshit and any smart bodybuilder would not put that crap in their bodies.


And keto works as a tool for a few weeks here and there if behind and CAN work wonders for a small small group of people but I am personally not a fan. If you come from the mindset of getting fat in the off-season then strictly cutting to a show I guess it works. But I think carbs are a great TOOL when used properly to stimulate metabolism and promote muscle gains.

And also IMO growing into a show > bulking/cutting.

[data4]

Maybe its just me but imo if someone is truly a really good prep coach then they will do whatever the hell it takes to get that person ready. If that means keto and a shit load of cardio so be it. Maybe that person needs higher carbs and trace fats or needs fats in the diet while slowly lowering carbs and alot of cardio like myself. No one approach is the answer and any good coach will tell you that. I think people are ignorant to think one thing is the best over something else. Just my .02

[Aaron Singerman]

For the record, Dave did NOT work with Ben White for this show.

[KevinCouch]

I worked with George preparing for the Masters Nationals last year and George has never mentioned DNP to me. I'm not a superfreak huge guy but I can hold my own and he got me crazy conditioned for the show, just speaking as one of his clients......

[Curt James]

At the end of the day I believe it all comes down to genetics, knowing your body (ie, responce to food, training and AAS), pushing yourself to the limit based off what you know about your body, genetics and genetic aaaaannnnddd genetics........ but mainly......genetics.

Eddie Robinson said he became a bodybuilder because... he looked like a bodybuilder.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-1wp-m9g2IjQ/TeMHn1wYVUI/AAAAAAAAFKg/kbqeGDQDdNo/eddie-robinson-rx.jpg

[Curt James]

Victor was with Dave for a while..didn't he win the AC or place in the top 6 while he was with Dave? I know it somewhere during those years. He also did wonders with Toney Freeman, and Toney's placing have not been the same since. Iris Kyle also does some type of Keto...she does not privi most to that info though, but she does no carbs.

And from interviews she does a good amount of cardio plus I believe she stated she uses Species supplements.

[Hydroshake]

the point of keto is to get you shredded. that's it. even if you end up flat as a pancake like andreas munzer did, you're still shredded.
like someone mentioned before, keto works better at the amateur level because being shredded and flat is okay. at the pro level, size and density take first place.
pros = overcarbing > overdieting

[bigchamp89]

For the record, Dave did NOT work with Ben White for this show.
oh damn... did not know that

[WannaBHuge]

the point of keto is to get you shredded. that's it. even if you end up flat as a pancake like andreas munzer did, you're still shredded.
like someone mentioned before, keto works better at the amateur level because being shredded and flat is okay. at the pro level, size and density take first place.
pros = overcarbing > overdieting


I have to say that maybe some of the pros should re address their diets because I have not been overly impressed with some of the recent shows. Many pros turning up less then "conditioned." Too many playing the size game? I don't know what the reason but even the Arnold was not that impressive. No one came out and shocked the crowed. I can remember a few years back the lineup was stacked. Now winner is the guy that didn't lose as bad as the others. Ive had several conversations with guys higher up and they say the same thing. I wonder what the deal is??

[WannaBHuge]

I used Dave's Keto diet for 3 shows. It does work. But as someone with a pretty decent nutritional background and as someone that preps clients for shows year round....

here it is...ready?

IT DOESN'T WORK FOR EVERYONE.

Everyone's body is different. And I think the keto diet is more for the endomorph body type. Someone with a mesomorph body type cannot use a keto diet as they will shrivle up like a grape. But for the bodytype that is carb sensitive and who tends to carry bodyfat easily through the year...this is a very successful diet. I also think that it should not be for extremely long periods of time. And I also think that carbing up on massive amounts of carbs at the end of a long period of keto is a recipe for disaster.

Just my .02 from my expereince.

[x100696]

IMO the bottom line is that Keto works just like every other diet in the world. Howevery, adjustments have to be made based on the individual. does dave have the exact same 6 meal a day layout for every single one of his clients-know. That's why you have to PAY to work with him. which is fair. I'm someone that is VERY carb sensitive. Even if I ea 200 grams of clean carbs a day I start gaining weight.

LIke one of the previous posts said, some of the pros need to readjust their diets. 80% of the don't come in shredded contest after contest. I think most are scared to try it just because they THINK they're so big they have to have carbs.

[x100696]

It's also funny how when Dave bring someone in 100% he's a genius and Keto is the best thing in the world. If they're off then KETO sucks. We have to remember we don't know what goes on behind the scens. Did the bber follow the diet 100%, did they train hard, did they party to much. It's not always just the prep coach.

[Thefuture]

1. Toney Freeman
2.Evan Centopani (won Pro card with it)
3.Michael Liberatore (Won pro card with it)
4.Sean Allan (Looked his best IMO, Not pro but pro size)
5. Ben White
Lets not worry about who is a pro and who isn't because most Pros will respond well to most any diet, so we should look at all of the top athletes.

[joe d]

who arent female...

I like dave, funny guy, entertaining, but george farrahs carbs, 20 min cardio, tren and dnp is the way to go

:D

for you.

i also never liked keto. my body loved carbs.

[toxic Avenger]

I found that keto tunes my metabolism. I am less carb sensitive now with an occasional keto period. It tunes me up so to speak.

[21htgnertsremmah]

Eddie Robinson said he became a bodybuilder because... he looked like a bodybuilder.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-1wp-m9g2IjQ/TeMHn1wYVUI/AAAAAAAAFKg/kbqeGDQDdNo/eddie-robinson-rx.jpg

Stop kidding yourselves lol. If low doses of AAS can turn this guy (who clearly has no muscle building genetics)

http://dominateyourwatercooler.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/mcgwire-rookie.jpg

Into this in just a matter of years

http://jaybock.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/mark_mcgwire.jpg

Then I can't imagine what he'd look like if he took pro bodybuilder doses for decades...

[21htgnertsremmah]

I love how everyone assumes Farah uses way more drugs and DNP even though all of his clients say otherwise. ALL OF THEM. Don't you think if it was true, one of his thousands of clients would slip about the drug use and DNP?

DNP is bullshit and any smart bodybuilder would not put that crap in their bodies.


And keto works as a tool for a few weeks here and there if behind and CAN work wonders for a small small group of people but I am personally not a fan. If you come from the mindset of getting fat in the off-season then strictly cutting to a show I guess it works. But I think carbs are a great TOOL when used properly to stimulate metabolism and promote muscle gains.

And also IMO growing into a show > bulking/cutting.


Why is DNP bullshit? Have you researched the compound yourself?

DNP is here and it's here to stay in the bodybuilding world.

[MiamiMadePunk]

Why is DNP bullshit? Have you researched the compound yourself?

DNP is here and it's here to stay in the bodybuilding world.
hammerstrength12, nice gimmick, now back to the other site

[21htgnertsremmah]

hammerstrength12, nice gimmick, now back to the other site

What do you know about DNP risktaker???

[MiamiMadePunk]

What do you know about DNP risktaker???
What I know is that you've created another gimmick account only this time your name is spelled backwards

[21htgnertsremmah]

What I know is that you've created another gimmick account only this time your name is spelled backwards

Technically it's not a gimmick :)

[MiamiMadePunk]

Technically it's not a gimmick :)
yes it is, I bet your using a good proxy site too

[21htgnertsremmah]

yes it is, I bet your using a good proxy site too

Only if your IQ is under 10...

[thachozenonebx]

Stop kidding yourselves lol. If low doses of AAS can turn this guy (who clearly has no muscle building genetics)

http://dominateyourwatercooler.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/mcgwire-rookie.jpg

Into this in just a matter of years

http://jaybock.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/mark_mcgwire.jpg

Then I can't imagine what he'd look like if he took pro bodybuilder doses for decades...

"what are muscle building genetics"? anyone who trains hard/heavy and adds in a adequate amount of protein will build muscle


thats different than having genetics for competitive bodybuilding

[21htgnertsremmah]

"what are muscle building genetics"? anyone who trains hard/heavy and adds in a adequate amount of protein will build muscle


thats different than having genetics for competitive bodybuilding


Agree when we're talking about stuff like the difference between 1st and 10th place at the olympia. As far as sheer size though, anyone can do it with enough gear.

[Caddan]

Pro BB are not crisp ripped anymore...they dont cut the carbs as they used to...mass before condition is today's pro BB aproach...miss the nineties...when shape and condition was king...sad

[MiamiMadePunk]

Agree when we're talking about stuff like the difference between 1st and 10th place at the olympia. As far as sheer size though, anyone can do it with enough gear.
proxify.com is working for you huh?

[JamesWebb]

Stop kidding yourselves lol. If low doses of AAS can turn this guy (who clearly has no muscle building genetics)

http://dominateyourwatercooler.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/mcgwire-rookie.jpg

Into this in just a matter of years

http://jaybock.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/mark_mcgwire.jpg

Then I can't imagine what he'd look like if he took pro bodybuilder doses for decades...

LOL at that pic of mark mcgwire being huge. that guy is below average gym rat size. big for a twink ass baseball player, maybe. but for a guy who trains not very large.

[JamesWebb]

Agree when we're talking about stuff like the difference between 1st and 10th place at the olympia. As far as sheer size though, anyone can do it with enough gear.

LOL, when you reach it, lets see it. if it were true every guido in jersey would be 300 lbs.

[thachozenonebx]

^^^^

Huge is relative, for a baseball player he was huge. Clearly there is no need for Mark to train balls to the wall bodybuilding lifestyle for hitting a baseball

[nsp]

Stop kidding yourselves lol. If low doses of AAS can turn this guy (who clearly has no muscle building genetics)

http://dominateyourwatercooler.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/mcgwire-rookie.jpg

Into this in just a matter of years

http://jaybock.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/mark_mcgwire.jpg

Then I can't imagine what he'd look like if he took pro bodybuilder doses for decades...

The fact that he juiced, trained and dieting and still looked nothing close to even an average NPC bodybuilder further proves my point. I have seen a handful of guys (myself included) make the same type of muscular gains that mark made without drugs at all (and I believe I speak for most guys on this very forum when I say that).

Along with proper training and dieting, AAS will take a person with average genetics and help make them into an average bodybuilder. And a person with great genetics into a great bodybuilder.

[Rambo2]

Why was HS12 banned in the first place?

[thachozenonebx]

Do you REALLY think he dieted, trained and juiced to the same level as a NPC competitor?

that makes no sense

[adpolice]

Why was HS12 banned in the first place?

Because he stated some truths...

[joe d]

LOL, when you reach it, lets see it. if it were true every guido in jersey would be 300 lbs.

it is true as long as you survive long enough, you can afford the cost, you have the know how, and you devote your life.

its not just aas though.

[Gunners]

What I know is that you've created another gimmick account only this time your name is spelled backwards

somebody give sherlock a prize here...

[nsp]

Do you REALLY think he dieted, trained and juiced to the same level as a NPC competitor?

that makes no sense

It's of course all speculation as to what extent he took his AAS, diet and training to. But I would imagine that multi million dollar contracted professional athelete at the pinnacle of their sport would not be half assing their approach to major league greatness.

[MiamiMadePunk]

somebody give sherlock a prize here...
Or mod status

[BC123Jm]

Or mod status

you have to be 18 or older to be a mod.

[MiamiMadePunk]

you have to be 18 or older to be a mod.
I'm 19

[H2OMod]

LOL, when you reach it, lets see it. if it were true every guido in jersey would be 300 lbs.

you're just cheap and scared to inject with massive amounts of oil, and too broke to load on GH 15iu's+/day. Talk to me when you can afford it. The guy you quoted knows what he's talking about, also don't fucken cycle, fuck that pussy shit.

[21htgnertsremmah]

The fact that he juiced, trained and dieting and still looked nothing close to even an average NPC bodybuilder further proves my point. I have seen a handful of guys (myself included) make the same type of muscular gains that mark made without drugs at all (and I believe I speak for most guys on this very forum when I say that).

Along with proper training and dieting, AAS will take a person with average genetics and help make them into an average bodybuilder. And a person with great genetics into a great bodybuilder.


Lol, the point I was trying to make is that the guy used LOW dose test, nandrolone for his joints, andro (which doesn't really do shit) and still went from 13 inch arms to 20 inch arms in a span of 4 years. This is all documented, there have been plenty of articles stating these facts since.

McGwire's probably bigger than 3/4 of the posters on this board, so lol at the people calling him small... No obviously he's no NPC bodybuilder, the the point stands.

[21htgnertsremmah]

Do you REALLY think he dieted, trained and juiced to the same level as a NPC competitor?

that makes no sense

Of course not, that only proves my point further. People like to stroke their own egos by downplaying the role the drugs have in this sport, but everyone knows it's complete bullshit. Like I said, the guy gained something like 7-8 inches in his arms (all documented) in a 3 year time span using LOW doses of AAS and not training anything like an NPC bodybuilder. Drugs matter, whether people want to admit it or not.

As for all these so called experts on "genetics," please do enlighten us gene interactions, the human genome, transcription, RNA synthesis and how it all relates to getting swole. LOL...

[21htgnertsremmah]

Along with proper training and dieting, AAS will take a person with average genetics and help make them into an average bodybuilder. And a person with great genetics into a great bodybuilder.

And how exactly would you go about determining their "genetics?" Experiment with every single combination of every diet, training program, sleep regimen, stress level, etc etc? There are just too many factors to figure that out. What one person might respond favorably too might not do shit for another person. I find the whole somatotype thing to be utter nonsense. 99% of people I work with say they have "average genetics" or are "hardgainers" when the truth is they don't fucking know how to lift or eat properly...


LOL, when you reach it, lets see it. if it were true every guido in jersey would be 300 lbs.

If every guido in jersey could afford 2 grams of cypionate and 20iu of GH, most would be pushing 300lbs...

[21htgnertsremmah]

It's of course all speculation as to what extent he took his AAS, diet and training to. But I would imagine that multi million dollar contracted professional athelete at the pinnacle of their sport would not be half assing their approach to major league greatness.

This is true. I have no idea what he took, his brother claims that all he did was test, deca and andro in low doses. But obviously there's no way of knowing whether it's valid or not.

What is known is that he was dealing with a shit ton of injuries at the time and wasn't able to lift up to his potential during this years.

[nsp]

Well that's a relief for me knowing now that genetics really don't mean much in bodybuilding and that it's all about the drugs. Now all I got to is take the same thing that Ronnie Coleman took and I can be an 8 time Mr. Olympia too. I mean, I've seen him train and how he diets and it's not any more strict than what I do, so the only thing that seperates the 2 of us must be the drugs right?!!

[H2OMod]

Well that's a relief for me knowing now that genetics really don't mean much in bodybuilding and that it's all about the drugs. Now all I got to is take the same thing that Ronnie Coleman took and I can be an 8 time Mr. Olympia too. I mean, I've seen him train and how he diets and it's not any more strict than what I do, so the only thing that seperates the 2 of us must be the drugs right?!!

You fail to see the point, GENETICS determine your response to AAS, but more precisely your starting physique and symmetry, SO, you can get on as much drugs as you want, get fucking HUGE, but still lack proper symmetry due to genetics. DO YOU GET IT NOW???

[BC123Jm]

I'm 19

well then,no high school kids are allowed to be mods.

[H2OMod]

well then,no high school kids are allowed to be mods.

OWNED. now go dead 465 and lie about it. Wanabe Mod, Hilarious.

[Také-Nori]

OWNED. now go dead 465 and lie about it. Wanabe Mod, Hilarious.

Who's the wannabe mod high schooler?

[MiamiMadePunk]

OWNED. now go dead 465 and lie about it. Wanabe Mod, Hilarious.
bye gimmick:byeb:

[H2OMod]

bye gimmick:byeb:

i'm no gimmik son, i actually read ur training journal, someone already called you out, i thought your response was telling of the TRUTH.

[MiamiMadePunk]

i'm no gimmik son, i actually read ur training journal, someone already called you out, i thought your response was telling of the TRUTH.
I'll post the 315 squat vid tomorrow, feel better now:), oh and I also called out BombDonald from youtube

[nsp]

You fail to see the point, GENETICS determine your response to AAS, but more precisely your starting physique and symmetry, SO, you can get on as much drugs as you want, get fucking HUGE, but still lack proper symmetry due to genetics. DO YOU GET IT NOW???

Well lucky for me I genetically got good symmetry so I'll be a shoe in for 8 sandows, maybe 9.

[BC123Jm]

i'm no gimmik son, i actually read ur training journal, someone already called you out, i thought your response was telling of the TRUTH.

peeps don't realize that some of us actually have a memory.

[H2OMod]

Well lucky for me I genetically got good symmetry so I'll be a shoe in for 8 sandows, maybe 9.

what's ur drug protocol like? are you willing to get on 3g+/wk + 15+iu's of GH for the next 5yrs, go ahead and tell me if you fail.

[21htgnertsremmah]

Well that's a relief for me knowing now that genetics really don't mean much in bodybuilding and that it's all about the drugs. Now all I got to is take the same thing that Ronnie Coleman took and I can be an 8 time Mr. Olympia too. I mean, I've seen him train and how he diets and it's not any more strict than what I do, so the only thing that seperates the 2 of us must be the drugs right?!!

No, but it's definitely one HUGE thing that separates you two. Unless of course you have the funds for 40iu of GH a year. Which I doubt you do.

Keep living in la-la land thinking that the only thing that separates the pros from us are the genetics. Let's see how far that'll get you in this sport. At least guys like BLP keep it real and aren't afraid to admit the truth...

[21htgnertsremmah]

DNA, RNA, Cytogenics, haplotypes, genotypes, phenotypes, penetrance, and the getting fucking swole phenotype - do enlighten us!

[Taylor Normandeau]

Sweet jesus.


DNP is crap and if you think all pro's use it, you're wrong and dumb. Some do, sure. But SOME pro's actually don't want to put straight up poison into their body to shed some fat.

And this "genetics don't matter, everyone can be lean 300 lbs with gear" gh15 style fucking bullshit mentality is getting so fucking old. I'm on half the gear that a lot of people I know take and I'm twice the size. And even the other way, I know people who take less than me and are bigger.

NOT EVERYONE CAN BE 300 LBS lean. Fact. WHY THE FUCK IS DEXTER JACKSON 225 and getting out muscled at shows? Everyone can get BIG with steroids, but this "pro size" shit is stupid. The same fucking idiots who say this then go on to say how shady and dangerous bodybuilding is. That's because you think it's all drugs and everyone takes as much as they can humanly shove into their bodies...


I hope the idiots with that mindset continue to keep dropping dead and eventually vanish out of our sport so intelligence and people with true potential and determination can take the sport back.

[Taylor Normandeau]

No, but it's definitely one HUGE thing that separates you two. Unless of course you have the funds for 40iu of GH a year. Which I doubt you do.

Keep living in la-la land thinking that the only thing that separates the pros from us are the genetics. Let's see how far that'll get you in this sport. At least guys like BLP keep it real and aren't afraid to admit the truth...

What does BLP prove?

That you can take more than any human being on this planet should even think is reasonable and still be a third tier bodybuilder?

[Taylor Normandeau]

To underplay genetics is fucking retarded. There's thousands and thousands of black kids shooting basketball at a park somewhere who have never done a set of fucking curls who have bigger biceps than the dudes running 1 gram + at your gym.

[H2OMod]

What does BLP prove?

That you can take more than any human being on this planet should even think is reasonable and still be a third tier bodybuilder?

you're wrong, all your beloved BB'ers lie about their drug use, or simply don't tell, so how can make ur statements then? DNP is not poison, and is very beneficial if used properly, don't be scared now.

[21htgnertsremmah]

Sweet jesus.


DNP is crap and if you think all pro's use it, you're wrong and dumb. Some do, sure. But SOME pro's actually don't want to put straight up poison into their body to shed some fat.

And this "genetics don't matter, everyone can be lean 300 lbs with gear" gh15 style fucking bullshit mentality is getting so fucking old. I'm on half the gear that a lot of people I know take and I'm twice the size. And even the other way, I know people who take less than me and are bigger.

NOT EVERYONE CAN BE 300 LBS lean. Fact. WHY THE FUCK IS DEXTER JACKSON 225 and getting out muscled at shows? Everyone can get BIG with steroids, but this "pro size" shit is stupid. The same fucking idiots who say this then go on to say how shady and dangerous bodybuilding is. That's because you think it's all drugs and everyone takes as much as they can humanly shove into their bodies...


I hope the idiots with that mindset continue to keep dropping dead and eventually vanish out of our sport so intelligence and people with true potential and determination can take the sport back.


Dex is in it for the $$ at this point. Anyone who's talked to him knows something's not the same.

Again, please enlighten me with scientific knowledge, not just this "DNP is crap nonsense." Until you do, you're just buying into the nonsense you hear on the boards. When used properly, DNP can be very beneficial. I did a weeker of it a couple months ago. Lethargy was pretty bad, but no worse than SD. Monitored my vitals, had bloodwork done. At the end of the day, my health markers were no worse (actually, significantly better) than SD or Dimethazine. Yet the later two compounds are legal. Explain that one to me?

People take more gear than me and are smaller. Your point? Plenty of lazy motherfuckers out there that use a shit ton of gear while eating 1 or two meals a day, missing workouts, not doing pct, and losing all the size they gain when they go off. Obviously to get the most out of your cycles you have to diet right and train your ass off. That goes without saying....


To underplay genetics is fucking retarded. There's thousands and thousands of black kids shooting basketball at a park somewhere who have never done a set of fucking curls who have bigger biceps than the dudes running 1 gram + at your gym.


True. But do we know that all pro bodybuilders fell into that category before they started using gear? No. In fact, I'd wager a good amount of $$ that most of them didn't.

[GaryGranaas]

I liked the keto diet. You see that avatar to the left of me? That's the keto diet. It's the best I have ever looked. Im carb sensitive. I ran keto and dnp with little cardio with shit load of growth and test. My trainer is a pro202 who taught me the keto and he himself does the same diet.

George Farah on the other hand probably does have a better diet technique. In my circumstance Im an amatuer and too dumb and dont have enough time to turn pro. The keto was an easy way to dial into my show. Worked for me. The big boy pro's probably benefit better from Farha's diet.

[21htgnertsremmah]

you're wrong, all your beloved BB'ers lie about their drug use, or simply don't tell, so how can make ur statements then? DNP is not poison, and is very beneficial if used properly, don't be scared now.


Exactly, of course people lie about their use. Especially online...

So again, I ask you Chode, what do you really know about DNP? Aromatic rings, hydroxyl groups, electrochemical gradients, proton ionophore, atp generation - please do enlighten me.

[Taylor Normandeau]

you're wrong, all your beloved BB'ers lie about their drug use, or simply don't tell, so how can make ur statements then? DNP is not poison, and is very beneficial if used properly, don't be scared now.

All my beloved BBers? It must be fun to talk down to people on the net and act like a really smart guy huh? Assuming you know me and everyone else on the board.

No one lies bout their drug use cause no one fucking talks about it. But since you, random anonymous internet hero, tell me, then it must be true.



Look. YOU MIGHT NEED 5+ grams of gear to get big. Not everyone does. Don't use your own pathetic genetic short comings to assume everyone has such a hard time achieving their goals like you.

[BC123Jm]

To underplay genetics is fucking retarded. There's thousands and thousands of black kids shooting basketball at a park somewhere who have never done a set of fucking curls who have bigger biceps than the dudes running 1 gram + at your gym.


Amen!

[Taylor Normandeau]

Exactly, of course people lie about their use. Especially online...

So again, I ask you Chode, what do you really know about DNP? Aromatic rings, hydroxyl groups, electrochemical gradients, proton ionophore, atp generation - please do enlighten me.

Are you selling it? I know it's terrible for you and not everyone who gets lean uses it. sure, even ECA is bad for you, but DNP is easily OD'd on and putting foreign industrial chemicals into your body is never a smart choice.


Is there any possible reason for you to even ask me this question or is it just to stroke your ego so you can go on some "I know the dark secrets" rant and feel better bout yourself.

[21htgnertsremmah]

Are you selling it? I know it's terrible for you and not everyone who gets lean uses it. sure, even ECA is bad for you, but DNP is easily OD'd on and putting foreign industrial chemicals into your body is never a smart choice.


Is there any possible reason for you to even ask me this question or is it just to stroke your ego so you can go on some "I know the dark secrets" rant and feel better bout yourself.

Bodybuilders abuse the shit out of plenty of dangerous drugs. DNP at a LOW dose is still more effective than ECA and far less dangerous than other bodybuilding drugs when taken at high doses (common). Diuretics, orals, clen, tren etc etc... DNP is not the enemy.

That's all my point really was. Drug abuse isn't just limited to DNP. It extends far beyond that.

[Taylor Normandeau]

Genetics = everything.

The people who say it's all drugs, were most likely the 150 lb twinks who's little pee pee would quiver whenever a man of actual stature would be in their presence. Some motherfuckers ARE BIG. When BIG MEN take steroids, they get BIGGER. Little men need MORE STEROIDS to get big. If you really think the difference between Phil Heath and you is his cycle, holy fuck you're in for a looooooooong life being that hopelessly ignorant

[Taylor Normandeau]

Bodybuilders abuse the shit out of plenty of dangerous drugs. DNP at a LOW dose is still more effective than ECA and far less dangerous than other bodybuilding drugs when taken at high doses (common). Diuretics, orals, clen, tren etc etc... DNP is not the enemy.

Cool story, I don't really get what you're trying to achieve? I said I think it's horrible and people shouldn't put it in their bodies. Why you felt it necassary to be the defense lawyer for a weight loss compound on the internet for absolutely no purpose is beyond me.

I know what DNP is. I don't like it. What the fuck is the issue here?

[21htgnertsremmah]

Genetics = everything.

The people who say it's all drugs, were most likely the 150 lb twinks who's little pee pee would quiver whenever a man of actual stature would be in their presence. Some motherfuckers ARE BIG. When BIG MEN take steroids, they get BIGGER. Little men need MORE STEROIDS to get big. If you really think the difference between Phil Heath and you is his cycle, holy fuck you're in for a looooooooong life being that hopelessly ignorant

This man sure was big before he took steroids!!!

96541

[21htgnertsremmah]

Cool story, I don't really get what you're trying to achieve? I said I think it's horrible and people shouldn't put it in their bodies. Why you felt it necassary to be the defense lawyer for a weight loss compound on the internet for absolutely no purpose is beyond me.

I know what DNP is. I don't like it. What the fuck is the issue here?

The issue is, you said it was "bullshit" and a major problem. I'm personally a big fan of it if used SAFELY and in LOW doses. There are plenty of other drugs equally if not more dangerous that are commonly used by all pro bodybuilders.

[Taylor Normandeau]

what I originally stated was I think it's bizarre how even though dozens and dozens of Farah's clients have said that DNP was not involved whatsoever in their regime, there is thousands of people who claim it's obvious.

I'm not saying I know what he tells his clients to take, but I am gonna go out on a limb and say that instead of all of Farah's clients being in on some DNP conspiracy, that maybe, just maybe, the anonymous internet wannabe's with no Avatars or real names just might be talking out of their ass.

[Taylor Normandeau]

The issue is, you said it was "bullshit" and a major problem. I'm personally a big fan of it if used SAFELY and in LOW doses. There are plenty of other drugs equally if not more dangerous that are commonly used by all pro bodybuilders.

None of those drugs were discussed in this thread, were they? I didn't start a "I HATE DNP" thread, it was the topic of this thread in the OP and I adressed it.


I'm happy you love DNP. super cool dude. If you don't own stock in a company that makes it, I truly don't understand what the fuck your deal is. Yes I think it's bullshit. Of course it works. Amphetamines work too. So does heroin.


And when the hell did I ever say that steroids don't work? I fucking love steroids. Dave P was a track runner, I doubt he was lifting weights and eating 5000 cals a day??? He trained for running, and he looked like a runner. Then he decided to train like a bodybuilder, took a shitload of drugs and never turned pro (which again is genetics). How does that pic in anyway prove anything?

[21htgnertsremmah]

what I originally stated was I think it's bizarre how even though dozens and dozens of Farah's clients have said that DNP was not involved whatsoever in their regime, there is thousands of people who claim it's obvious.

I'm not saying I know what he tells his clients to take, but I am gonna go out on a limb and say that instead of all of Farah's clients being in on some DNP conspiracy, that maybe, just maybe, the anonymous internet wannabe's with no Avatars or real names just might be talking out of their ass.

I haven't the first fucking clue what his clients take. You claimed that any bodybuilder who uses this stuff is a moron. My point was that DNP gets a bad rap due to forum parrots and that there are plenty of intelligent bodybuilders who use it (conservatively of course).

[H2OMod]

Genetics = everything.

The people who say it's all drugs, were most likely the 150 lb twinks who's little pee pee would quiver whenever a man of actual stature would be in their presence. Some motherfuckers ARE BIG. When BIG MEN take steroids, they get BIGGER. Little men need MORE STEROIDS to get big. If you really think the difference between Phil Heath and you is his cycle, holy fuck you're in for a looooooooong life being that hopelessly ignorant

Your points was made by a previous poster, and i addressed it. You're simply failing to read with an open mind. Genetics determine starting material and symmetry, which is obviously enhanced in size by AAS, now that doesn't mean an average joe with less than perfect symmetry can't get up to pro size level, nonetheless, he will still posses a physique that is not satisfactory by BB'ing standards. Think of the 250lb+ bouncers at your local night club, huge as fuck, but lack the necessary specifics to win Mr.O.

[Také-Nori]

This thread is fire!

More. More.

[21htgnertsremmah]

Phil in hs:

Va0el5wOULs

[Taylor Normandeau]

I haven't the first fucking clue what his clients take. You claimed that any bodybuilder who uses this stuff is a moron. My point was that DNP gets a bad rap due to forum parrots and that there are plenty of intelligent bodybuilders who use it (conservatively of course).

Okay well I somewhat admire your persuasive conversational techniques, I DID NOT SAY anyone who uses it is a moron. I said smart bodybuilders wouldn't use it. While I agree that might appear to be somewhat saying the same thing, please do not turn my words around to suit your arguement when I never once claimed anyone who uses DNP is a moron. I don't think a "smart bodybuilder" would use it. If you use it, in my opinion you are not being a "smart bodybuilder". I never once said you or anyone else is a moron.

[Taylor Normandeau]

Phil has been training for what, 7 years? Probably on a fixed income for the first couple. I would love to see you take every compound in the same dose he has, and eat every meal, and then go on stage and see if you are as big and shredded.

[Taylor Normandeau]

Your points was made by a previous poster, and i addressed it. You're simply failing to read with an open mind. Genetics determine starting material and symmetry, which is obviously enhanced in size by AAS, now that doesn't mean an average joe with less than perfect symmetry can't get up to pro size level, nonetheless, he will still posses a physique that is not satisfactory by BB'ing standards. Think of the 250lb+ bouncers at your local night club, huge as fuck, but lack the necessary specifics to win Mr.O.

Did you not say anyone can reach Pro size with the drug use pro's use?

[21htgnertsremmah]

Okay well I somewhat admire your persuasive conversational techniques, I DID NOT SAY anyone who uses it is a moron. I said smart bodybuilders wouldn't use it. While I agree that might appear to be somewhat saying the same thing, please do not turn my words around to suit your arguement when I never once claimed anyone who uses DNP is a moron. I don't think a "smart bodybuilder" would use it. If you use it, in my opinion you are not being a "smart bodybuilder". I never once said you or anyone else is a moron.

While that does make some sense, doesn't the same thing also apply to a bodybuilder who abuses the shit out of clen, ephedrine, cytomel and furosemide????

[H2OMod]

Did you not say anyone can reach Pro size with the drug use pro's use?

NO, Pro's use more than you think, and the average joe will definitely benefit from taking the same amount, but they might require more, possibly.

[Taylor Normandeau]

You fail to see the point, GENETICS determine your response to AAS, but more precisely your starting physique and symmetry, SO, you can get on as much drugs as you want, get fucking HUGE, but still lack proper symmetry due to genetics. DO YOU GET IT NOW???

Here how bout this. If genetics determine your response to AAS, if you are 130 lbs, with a horrible genetics response to training and AAS, how many grams of gear will get you "FUCKING HUGE?"

[21htgnertsremmah]

Phil has been training for what, 7 years? Probably on a fixed income for the first couple. I would love to see you take every compound in the same dose he has, and eat every meal, and then go on stage and see if you are as big and shredded.

Perhaps you're missing my point. I never said genetics were irrelevant. The difference between a guy like Heath and Palumbo in his prime is a small one, but THAT is due to genetics. The biggest factor in the difference between Palumbo in the before and after pic is drugs.

Without abusing a shit ton of androgens, you don't even get to that level. Fact.

[Taylor Normandeau]

While that does make some sense, doesn't the same thing also apply to a bodybuilder who abuses the shit out of clen, ephedrine, cytomel and furosemide????

Yes. Any abuse is dumb, but A) this thread didn't mention those B) DNP was never designed for human consumption, those products were. Correct me if I'm wrong but DNP was included into diet pills after people who were subject to it in an industrial setting were all losing weight like dying africans?

[Jake DeMichele]

Phil in hs:

Va0el5wOULs

Jamal Crawford, NBA player from the hawks and Phil Health on the same high school basketball team that's kinda funny.

[Taylor Normandeau]

Perhaps you're missing my point. I never said genetics were irrelevant. The difference between a guy like Heath and Palumbo in his prime is a small one, but THAT is due to genetics. The biggest factor in the difference between Palumbo in the before and after pic is drugs.

Without abusing a shit ton of androgens, you don't even get to that level. Fact.

Yes you need steroids to get pro size. Never once in my life have I ever suggested anything different or been so naive to assume otherwise.

[21htgnertsremmah]

Yes you need steroids to get pro size. Never once in my life have I ever suggested anything different or been so naive to assume otherwise.

Ok fine. But doesn't that imply that drugs are a HUGE part of it?

[BC123Jm]

just because a guy doesn't look big and muscular with out doing anything doesn't mean he has no genetics. if i posted a pic of me out of shape you would say no way that guy has good genetics for BB.

but when i train, and diet i transform quick. now the difference when i juice or do it natty is just that i'm 20lbs of muscle bigger on the juice.

there a tons of pics of all these great BB's like tom platz where his legs look like tooth picks before he started training. you gonna say he didnt have great leg genetics.

[Taylor Normandeau]

Ok fine. But doesn't that imply that drugs are a HUGE part of it?

Of course they are. It wasn't the fact that PRO'S USE LOTS OF DRUGS that I said was dumb, it was claiming ANYONE CAN GET HUGE WITH LOTS OF DRUGS and underplaying genetics that is retarded.


The genetics thing is simple. DNA and nature does not give a FUCK if you think they matter. Even if everyone on the net thought genetics weren't the biggest factor in bodybuilding, they would still continue to be. Genetics and human design is science and law, it doesn't give a fuck how important you think it is.

To some degree, it could be like a scale, the shittier you are in the genetics department, you can slightly counter-act that with drugs. To a small extent. If getting super fucking huge just meant shooting lots of drugs, we would see a lot more huge people.

[21htgnertsremmah]

just because a guy doesn't look big and muscular with out doing anything doesn't mean he has no genetics. if i posted a pic of me out of shape you would say no way that guy has good genetics for BB.

but when i train, and diet i transform quick. now the difference when i juice or do it natty is just that i'm 20lbs of muscle bigger on the juice.

there a tons of pics of all these great BB's like tom platz where his legs look like tooth picks before he started training. you gonna say he didnt have great leg genetics.


Obviously he did, but more important was the type of training he did IMO. How many pro bodybuilders do you see doing full ROM, high bar olympic squats today?

[Taylor Normandeau]

just because a guy doesn't look big and muscular with out doing anything doesn't mean he has no genetics. if i posted a pic of me out of shape you would say no way that guy has good genetics for BB.

but when i train, and diet i transform quick. now the difference when i juice or do it natty is just that i'm 20lbs of muscle bigger on the juice.

there a tons of pics of all these great BB's like tom platz where his legs look like tooth picks before he started training. you gonna say he didnt have great leg genetics.

Agreed 100%


I'll use another example outside of bodybuilding. I play guitar at an advanced level. If you put a guitar in my hands 12 years ago, it would have sounded like a fucking retard having sex with a kat (and not in a sexy good way). But within 5 years I reached a level most people don't get to. So what does genetics play there? Both my parents were lifelong musicians. Was it how I practiced? Was it drugs? (guitar playing is all drugs these days......) Or was I genetically crafted from birth to adapt to playing an instrument at a higher level than most?

I'm not trying to suck my own dick, it's just the only other example I could think of.

[GaryGranaas]

I get big on eating dandelions from my front lawn :)

[Taylor Normandeau]

I get big on eating dandelions from my front lawn :)

can I have some free stuff?

[H2OMod]

I get big on eating dandelions from my front lawn :)

True story, plus 500mg for 12wks, and HIT training once every 14days, and you're FUCKING HUUUUUUUGE. oh, don't forget creatine.

[Taylor Normandeau]

Another very good point I read in a similar thread, I forgot who or what or why, was that people can only talk bout what they know.

if you were a tiny little fuck who needed to abuse the shit out of every anabolic compound you could get your hands on to get big, you're gonna say that's what it takes to get big. If you were a giant fuck and put on muscle just by eating the crusted jizz off your undies, you will say it's all genetics.

[H2OMod]

Another very good point I read in a similar thread, I forgot who or what or why, was that people can only talk bout what they know.

if you were a tiny little fuck who needed to abuse the shit out of every anabolic compound you could get your hands on to get big, you're gonna say that's what it takes to get big. If you were a giant fuck and put on muscle just by eating the crusted jizz off your undies, you will say it's all genetics.

Do you aspire to be 260lb+ Lean? if yes, then how are you planning to do so? Sincere question.

[21htgnertsremmah]

Another very good point I read in a similar thread, I forgot who or what or why, was that people can only talk bout what they know.

if you were a tiny little fuck who needed to abuse the shit out of every anabolic compound you could get your hands on to get big, you're gonna say that's what it takes to get big. If you were a giant fuck and put on muscle just by eating the crusted jizz off your undies, you will say it's all genetics.

I was able to get to 210 before using drugs. Nothing phenomenal. The diet and training are a given. But everyone knows that drugs combined with diet and training will give you exponentially better results than doing it w/o AAS.

And I truly don't believe in the hardgainer shit. If you can't put on muscle and stay a skinny kid forever, it means you're not eating properly, training properly, or wasting too much $$ on garbage supplements that the bodybuilding industry tricks millions of kids into believing are essential for growth.

[BC123Jm]

here is another example from personal experience.
I was in the joint with this black kid, we were training partners
when i first got there i was very out of shape because i was in county
with no weights and food for a long time.

anyway this kid had been
working out every day. he looked good. lean and muscular, full
muscle bellies. we started training together. over the next 4 or 5 months
i totally transformed. he stayed about the same. then he got shipped
off to court. he came back three months later, he hadnt touched a weight
while he was gone. he looked exactly the same as when he left.

who has the better genetics for muscle building?

[adpolice]

96543

[21htgnertsremmah]

here is another example from personal experience.
I was in the joint with this black kid, we were training partners
when i first got there i was very out of shape because i was in county
with no weights and food for a long time.

anyway this kid had been
working out every day. he looked good. lean and muscular, full
muscle bellies. we started training together. over the next 4 or 5 months
i totally transformed. he stayed about the same. then he got shipped
off to court. he came back three months later, he hadnt touched a weight
while he was gone. he looked exactly the same as when he left.

who has the better genetics for muscle building?


Maybe your body was just more adapt to respond to the specific program you guys were doing? Maybe if you had tried something like GVT or Max Contractions, he would have responded like crazy and you would have looked the same? Maybe his cortisol levels were low after the program enabling him to retain whatever he had? Maybe the program spiked his cortisol, but his free test was higher than yours?

Genetics is a complicated science.

[GaryGranaas]

LOL!!! :hypno:
Another very good point I read in a similar thread, I forgot who or what or why, was that people can only talk bout what they know.

if you were a tiny little fuck who needed to abuse the shit out of every anabolic compound you could get your hands on to get big, you're gonna say that's what it takes to get big. If you were a giant fuck and put on muscle just by eating the crusted jizz off your undies, you will say it's all genetics.

[BC123Jm]

Maybe your body was just more adapt to respond to the specific program you guys were doing? Maybe if you had tried something like GVT or Max Contractions, he would have responded like crazy and you would have looked the same? Maybe his cortisol levels were low after the program enabling him to retain whatever he had? Maybe the program spiked his cortisol, but his free test was higher than yours?

Genetics is a complicated science.

thats my point. look at that picture of dorian. no way that guy could ever be a great BB

[21htgnertsremmah]

The "post hoc ergo propter hoc" fallacy is an error bodybuilders make all too often, and is the #1 rule of all things science/statistics related - correlation does not equal causation. Learn it, live it, love it.


thats my point. look at that picture of dorian. no way that guy could ever be a great BB

Yup

[Taylor Normandeau]

See now the arguement has changed into "Drugs are important" from "drugs are all that's important".

[Taylor Normandeau]

Maybe your body was just more adapt to respond to the specific program you guys were doing? Maybe if you had tried something like GVT or Max Contractions, he would have responded like crazy and you would have looked the same? Maybe his cortisol levels were low after the program enabling him to retain whatever he had? Maybe the program spiked his cortisol, but his free test was higher than yours?

Genetics is a complicated science.

If genetics is a complicated science, how come you don't allot some of those complications to deem one a hardgainer? Everything you just explained is GENETICS.

Testosterone levels? genetics (except on AAS), cortisol fluctuations? genetics.

Genetics in bodybuilding doesn't mean that there's a specific "ifbb" gene, it means is your body genetically in sync to building muscle or not. It's not ONE FUCKING gene, it's every single thing in your body.

[21htgnertsremmah]

If genetics is a complicated science, how come you don't allot some of those complications to deem one a hardgainer? Everything you just explained is GENETICS.

Testosterone levels? genetics (except on AAS), cortisol fluctuations? genetics.

Genetics in bodybuilding doesn't mean that there's a specific "ifbb" gene, it means is your body genetically in sync to building muscle or not. It's not ONE FUCKING gene, it's every single thing in your body.

Because everyone can build muscle as a natural with the proper training and diet. That is a fact. I've seen it with dozens and dozens of clients who claim they have tried everything, yet still manage to put on a significant amount of size. Anyone who puts in the effort can make significant progress, even if they think think their genetics are shit. I'm not saying anyone can become a WNBF Pro. But can they obtain a look that's pretty close to one? Absolutely.

Once you introduce exogenous hormones into ones system, ALL those health markers (genetics to some extent, depending on how you define the word) become irrelevant.

Obviously there is no specific IFBB gene. My point is, the human genome is so complicated that it's 100% impossible to tell who has the "genetics" to succeed at the pro level unless we literally pump shit-tons of AAS into millions of human beings, map their DNA, and figure out the statistical distribution of who falls into which quartile, etc. Here's the next logical question: how many people that don't give a rat's ass about getting swole have better genetics for becoming an IFBB pro than Jay or Ronnie? The law of averages tells me that there are plenty of them out there, and that if we were somehow able to quantify peoples "IFBB genetics (the sum total of every factor that matters), the average IFBB pro would be just that - average.

Anyway, until we can do that, there's really no plausable way of quantifying the genetic impact. It's just impossible. We can do that with drugs however, and there are plenty of credible studies on that.

[WannaBHuge]

This has become one of my favorite threads in a long time. I have had many laughs reading some of the ridiculous posts.

I have a friend who is a pro. He doesn't train as hard as me. Doesn't eat as consistently as me. We take about the same amount of supplements. When we diet his diet is no where near as hard and his cardio is non-existent. He walks around looking like an ad for bodybuilding and I'm still playing around at the national level. Its not the amount of drugs that make the bodybuilder. Its the genetics.

I've said this so many times. The drugs and supplements should be just that. They should supplement the hard work and genetics. They cannot replace hard work and genetics. If you are not meant to be a pro level physique....all the drugs in the world will not help you. The pros have some different DNA strands that gives them the genetics to do things that normal people cannot. You see it all the time at the gym....at the shows....everywhere. Some asshole is taking enough drugs to kill an elephant and looks like crap. His body's genetics do not support what he is trying to make it do. SIMPLE.

[5 Grams year round baby]

Saying drugs isn't almost everything is just plain stupid and naive, a 5'9 natural pro barly hits 210 on stage if hes lucky, but some ifbb pros at 5'9 can be 260+ ?? hmm, yea genetics....

[BC123Jm]

you can never tell by just looking at somebody. look at Kovacs before he started really BB. he was a big mother already. but he didnt do shit as a BB

[Taylor Normandeau]

Well you see, there is millions of human beings pumping shit tons of AAS into themselves. I'm sure everyone who goes to a bodybuilders gym knows a bunch of dudes who have been cranking for decades, yet would never impress anyone at a high level of bodybuilding.

So there is some evidence. Sure it's not scientific, but some people lift and train for 5 years and look fucking AMAZING and are huge, yet others can juice off and on for 30 years and barely weigh 200 lbs. You HAVE to know someone who has abused the shit out of gear and isn't that big in a hoodie. I sure do...

Now I guess you could claim since I don't have a study to link to that proves what I said that I am talking out of my ass, but I think you're smarter than that...

[Taylor Normandeau]

Saying drugs isn't almost everything is just plain stupid and naive, a 5'9 natural pro barly hits 210 on stage if hes lucky, but some ifbb pros at 5'9 can be 260+ ?? hmm, yea genetics....

What? your logic is fucked. Maybe they both have good genetics? I don't think anyone is saying you don't need gear....Of course you do.


but feed one dude a gram a week for a year and another dude the same, different results will happen.

[21htgnertsremmah]

Well you see, there is millions of human beings pumping shit tons of AAS into themselves. I'm sure everyone who goes to a bodybuilders gym knows a bunch of dudes who have been cranking for decades, yet would never impress anyone at a high level of bodybuilding.

So there is some evidence. Sure it's not scientific, but some people lift and train for 5 years and look fucking AMAZING and are huge, yet others can juice off and on for 30 years and barely weigh 200 lbs. You HAVE to know someone who has abused the shit out of gear and isn't that big in a hoodie. I sure do...

Now I guess you could claim since I don't have a study to link to that proves what I said that I am talking out of my ass, but I think you're smarter than that...


That's not how science works though. Every factor in some sort of a study like that would have to be held constant - same exact diet, same training, same supplements, same gear stacks, same amount of hours sleeping, etc etc... If one is to determine the extent of how "genetics" factor in. Obviously it's factor, but the extent to which it is is just impossible to determine....

I know plenty of people like that myself. But the guys you speak of that have been juicing for 30 years and weight 200 - I have a hard time believing they aren't lazy as shit, eat like shit and train like shit.

[Taylor Normandeau]

And I honestly think you could see a lot of dudes 210 on stage natty...but we don't get the chance because those genetically gifted people would rather be the best in the world, not the best natty...


Jay Cutler, in a seperate universe, same everything just no AAS, would have EASILY hit stage at 210 natty some point in his career. But why the fuck would he ever wait to see?

[WannaBHuge]

Saying drugs isn't almost everything is just plain stupid and naive, a 5'9 natural pro barly hits 210 on stage if hes lucky, but some ifbb pros at 5'9 can be 260+ ?? hmm, yea genetics....


I don't think anyone is arguing that it requires drugs to reach the IFBB stage. The difference is that it requires the right genetics to utilize the drugs for that to happen. If it was just drugs and not genetics EVERYONE THAT HAD MONEY FOR DRUGS WOULD BE A PRO. If your body is not wired to the potential for that type of muscle hypertrophy than 1 billion grams a week will not get you there.

[5 Grams year round baby]

What? your logic is fucked. Maybe they both have good genetics? I don't think anyone is saying you don't need gear....Of course you do.


but feed one dude a gram a week for a year and another dude the same, different results will happen.

I thought we were assuming we weren't talking about joe shmoes and we were talking about experienced lifters or aspiring 'bodybuilders'... you know, people who actually know how to eat and lift to get big already?....

Of course a nobody off the street that goes all day without eating and drinks all night but works out everyday and taking grams of shit isin't going to grow.... :dunno:

[WannaBHuge]

I know plenty of people like that myself. But the guys you speak of that have been juicing for 30 years and weight 200 - I have a hard time believing they aren't lazy as shit, eat like shit and train like shit.

But I know plenty of pros that eat like shit and train like shit and are pro bodybuilders. And yes. I know them personally. And yes. I have watched them eat. So what is your argument? They must take even more drugs than everyone else to offset their laziness?

GET REAL. The difference is their genetics.

I really feel like someone is either a complete moron or they are just goating eveyrone. No one can bet this stupid.

[21htgnertsremmah]

But I know plenty of pros that eat like shit and train like shit and are pro bodybuilders. And yes. I know them personally. And yes. I have watched them eat. So what is your argument? They must take even more drugs than everyone else to offset their laziness?

GET REAL. The difference is their genetics.

I really feel like someone is either a complete moron or they are just goating eveyrone. No one can bet this stupid.


If they didn't take drugs, they wouldn't look ANYTHING like that. Guaranteed. Tell me which factor is more important?

[5 Grams year round baby]

I don't think anyone is arguing that it requires drugs to reach the IFBB stage. The difference is that it requires the right genetics to utilize the drugs for that to happen. If it was just drugs and not genetics EVERYONE THAT HAD MONEY FOR DRUGS WOULD BE A PRO. If your body is not wired to the potential for that type of muscle hypertrophy than 1 billion grams a week will not get you there.

Ok so maybe a guy off the biggest loser who lost 400 lbs and is now 150 lbs of skinny fat has the worst genetics in the world so yes HE would see SHIT results from alot of gear. But anybody with average genetics even, with enough abuse will get to an insane level eventually. My opinion is the shape your body takes as the muscle comes is where genetics really come into play. Example Dave palumbo on one end and Phil heath on the other.

[BC123Jm]

when i say genetics, i mean when a guy like flex wheeler puts it all together he looks amazing. but obviously look at him now. would you say that guy has great BB genetics? yes he does, when he puts it all together.
someone else could do exactly what he did and still never come close.
but look at him now. look at dorian now,look at some many of the old pro's now. they are a shell of their former Bodybuilder selves.

[Taylor Normandeau]

But I know plenty of pros that eat like shit and train like shit and are pro bodybuilders. And yes. I know them personally. And yes. I have watched them eat. So what is your argument? They must take even more drugs than everyone else to offset their laziness?

GET REAL. The difference is their genetics.

I really feel like someone is either a complete moron or they are just goating eveyrone. No one can bet this stupid.

It's all drugs. Everything is drugs. The reason Jay Cutler is 25 lbs bigger than Phil heath is because he takes 25 lbs worth of drugs more than him.

idiot, didn't you get the memo?

[21htgnertsremmah]

It's all drugs. Everything is drugs. The reason Jay Cutler is 25 lbs bigger than Phil heath is because he takes 25 lbs worth of drugs more than him.

idiot, didn't you get the memo?

He has been taking drugs a lot longer than Phil...

[21htgnertsremmah]

Ok so maybe a guy off the biggest loser who lost 400 lbs and is now 150 lbs of skinny fat has the worst genetics in the world so yes HE would see SHIT results from alot of gear. But anybody with average genetics even, with enough abuse will get to an insane level eventually. My opinion is the shape your body takes as the muscle comes is where genetics really come into play. Example Dave palumbo on one end and Phil heath on the other.

Agree wholeheartedly

[Taylor Normandeau]

And I know this might seem "off topic", but here is what the poster boy of "bad genetics" in bodybuilding looked like at 18.

http://clips.team-andro.com/watch/712c7d90d1b39e348bbb/branch-warren-18-vs.-jay-cutler-19

[Taylor Normandeau]

He has been taking drugs a lot longer than Phil...

Okay take Jay Cutler in 2001 at 27 years of age, still 260 lbs.

[21htgnertsremmah]

Okay take Jay Cutler in 2001 at 27 years of age, still 260 lbs.

The difference between Jay at 27 and Jay at 18 is HUGE. That comes primarily from drugs. The difference between Phil at 27 and Jay at 27 is small (genetics). Actually, I've never really liked the way Jay looks...

[5 Grams year round baby]

Okay take Jay Cutler in 2001 at 27 years of age, still 260 lbs.

Accoriding to both their websites, phil heath has a 29 inch waist, and Jay cutler has a 34 inch waist, Maybe all that hgh abuse by jay and his overgrown gut compared to phils is where the extra weight is....

[21htgnertsremmah]

Accoriding to both their websites, phil heath has a 29 inch waist, and Jay cutler has a 34 inch waist, Maybe all that hgh abuse by jay and his overgrown gut compared to phils is where the extra weight is....

Don't forget slin and peptides..

[BC123Jm]

The difference between Jay at 27 and Jay at 18 is HUGE. That comes primarily from drugs. The difference between Phil at 27 and Jay at 27 is small (genetics). Actually, I've never really liked the way Jay looks...


i'll second that

[5 Grams year round baby]

Don't forget slin and peptides..

Truth. If someone doesn't think 5 inches extra around the waist adds a good amount of weight i dunno wat to tell you.

[BC123Jm]

Accoriding to both their websites, phil heath has a 29 inch waist, and Jay cutler has a 34 inch waist, Maybe all that hgh abuse by jay and his overgrown gut compared to phils is where the extra weight is....


no way its that small!

[21htgnertsremmah]

no way its that small!

No fucking way lol, not even close. Even 38 would be a stretch (no pun intended)

[Taylor Normandeau]

Accoriding to both their websites, phil heath has a 29 inch waist, and Jay cutler has a 34 inch waist, Maybe all that hgh abuse by jay and his overgrown gut compared to phils is where the extra weight is....

Gut and waist is different. I'd honestly say Phil's gut is bigger than Jay's right now, Jay just has a wide ass waist, it's his structure. His gut used to be worse than it is now.


all that being said Phil > Jay in my eyes.

[5 Grams year round baby]

No fucking way lol, not even close

Lol helps my argument even moree, Jay prob got a 38-40 inch waist, 10 inches more then phil??

[Taylor Normandeau]

no way its that small!

You don't think? I'm being serious. I have a 34 waist and I have a wide waist and still got some pudge. You think if he was to wear jeans they would be bigger than size 34? (not accounting for leg size just waist) in contest shape

[5 Grams year round baby]

Gut and waist is different. I'd honestly say Phil's gut is bigger than Jay's right now, Jay just has a wide ass waist, it's his structure. His gut used to be worse than it is now.


all that being said Phil > Jay in my eyes.

I agree phil looks better then jay, but honestly man no hate, you don't think the insane difference in their gut/waist size adds alot of weight??

[Taylor Normandeau]

Lol helps my argument even moree, Jay prob got a 38-40 inch waist, 10 inches more then phil??

What argument? that Jay is blockier than Phil? Of course he is. He was born a big blocky motherfucker

[21htgnertsremmah]

What argument? that Jay is blockier than Phil? Of course he is. He was born a big blocky motherfucker

I thought he looked pretty good in that video. Looks like shit today if you ask me. Do you think he had the genetics to look like Arnold? Or is the combo of drugs he used to blame? I dunno. I don't think anyone really knows.

[Taylor Normandeau]

I agree phil looks better then jay, but honestly man no hate, you don't think the insane difference in their gut/waist size adds alot of weight??

It might, I never said it didn't. I don't really know what the topic is anymore haha.

[BC123Jm]

You don't think? I'm being serious. I have a 34 waist and I have a wide waist and still got some pudge. You think if he was to wear jeans they would be bigger than size 34? (not accounting for leg size just waist) in contest shape


his waist was big at 19. look how freakin wide he is and his waist still looks big. i dont think phil is 29 either ,look up a pic of brian buchanon, now that dudes got a 29 inch waist.

[Taylor Normandeau]

I thought he looked pretty good in that video. Looks like shit today if you ask me. Do you think he had the genetics to look like Arnold? Or is the combo of drugs he used to blame? I dunno. I don't think anyone really knows.

No I don't think he had the genetics to look like Arnold. jay's only route to possible success was to take the giant freak of nature path, for his structure was never pretty.

[Taylor Normandeau]

his waist was big at 19. look how freakin wide he is and his waist still looks big. i dont think phil is 29 either ,look up a pic of brian buchanon, now that dudes got a 29 inch waist.

Yeah man, I know people who wear a 30 and they look like little girls.

[peteacher]

everyone knows that bodybuilding is all about genetics. drugs are just the finishing 10%.

[Taylor Normandeau]

How can you tell someones genetic potential from a picture of them untrained?

[5 Grams year round baby]

http://forums.rxmuscle.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=96554&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1306814483


Whattttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt tttt???? holy shit :no:

[WannaBHuge]

If they didn't take drugs, they wouldn't look ANYTHING like that. Guaranteed. Tell me which factor is more important?


I guess I'm not sure what argument everyone is trying to aruge here so I'm not sure how to answer since I think the thread keeps morphing to back up everyones posts. So I'll try to answer what I think is some of the arguemnts:

1., If the pros didn't take any drugs would they look like they look as pro bodybuilders? Absolutley not.

2. Is anyone that takes the same cycle or even more than Jay guarenteed to look like jay? Absolutley not.

3. What determines how a person's body will ultimately react to drugs and supplements and ultimately make someone a pro bodybuilder versus a national level versus the guy in the gym? GENETICS. not the sheer amount of drugs they inject. Genetics give the body the ability to process and utlize everything that is thrown at them. If I train my body in the exact same way that Jay Cutler does will I look exactly the same? No Genetics. If I eat the same diet as Jay will I look like him. No. Genetics again. How about the drugs? NOPE STILL GENETICS. The drugs take someone with outstanding genetics and allow them to push those genetics past the point they could take them alone. But when someone does not have that level of genetics, they cannot push their body to the same level.

The amount of drugs only matter when the genetics exist.

[Dre23]

Yes. Any abuse is dumb, but A) this thread didn't mention those B) DNP was never designed for human consumption, those products were. Correct me if I'm wrong but DNP was included into diet pills after people who were subject to it in an industrial setting were all losing weight like dying africans?

Neither was equipoise. No, not anywhere near as harmful, but bodybuilders put a lot of things in their bodies that were not designed for human consumption.


Okay well I somewhat admire your persuasive conversational techniques, I DID NOT SAY anyone who uses it is a moron. I said smart bodybuilders wouldn't use it. While I agree that might appear to be somewhat saying the same thing, please do not turn my words around to suit your arguement when I never once claimed anyone who uses DNP is a moron. I don't think a "smart bodybuilder" would use it. If you use it, in my opinion you are not being a "smart bodybuilder". I never once said you or anyone else is a moron.

Bodybuilding at the pro level is not about being smart per se. It is about achieving the freakiest results possible while mitigating as many sides effects and not killing yourself.

I have spoken with/know quite a few top npc bodybuilders as well as pros and it never ceases to amaze me how ignorant they are to certain compounds and just take and follow the "supplement program" that their gurus have outlined for them without question. If Guru X says to take 'this', they take it without asking what it is or does. They pay and trust these guys to lead them to victory and I'm willing to bet that many people on this board are smarter/more knowledgeable when it comes to drugs than some pros are. Not all, but some.


I guess I'm not sure what argument everyone is trying to aruge here so I'm not sure how to answer since I think the thread keeps morphing to back up everyones posts. So I'll try to answer what I think is some of the arguemnts:

1., If the pros didn't take any drugs would they look like they look as pro bodybuilders? Absolutley not.

2. Is anyone that takes the same cycle or even more than Jay guarenteed to look like jay? Absolutley not.

3. What determines how a person's body will ultimately react to drugs and supplements and ultimately make someone a pro bodybuilder versus a national level versus the guy in the gym? GENETICS. not the sheer amount of drugs they inject. Genetics give the body the ability to process and utlize everything that is thrown at them. If I train my body in the exact same way that Jay Cutler does will I look exactly the same? No Genetics. If I eat the same diet as Jay will I look like him. No. Genetics again. How about the drugs? NOPE STILL GENETICS. The drugs take someone with outstanding genetics and allow them to push those genetics past the point they could take them alone. But when someone does not have that level of genetics, they cannot push their body to the same level.

The amount of drugs only matter when the genetics exist.

Good point on #1. But is surely does call into question remarks made by Lee Priest as well as other pros that even if drugs did not exist, those who are pros would STILL be pros due to their outstanding genetic makeup. I find that comment to be quite delusional. Just because someone is the best on drugs, does not mean that they would be the best without drugs.

Besides the typical meathead bashing :p this is an overall good thread.

[Taylor Normandeau]

Neither was equipoise. No, not anywhere near as harmful, but bodybuilders put a lot of things in their bodies that were not designed for human consumption.



Bodybuilding at the pro level is not about being smart per se. It is about achieving the freakiest results possible while mitigating as many sides effects and not killing yourself.

I have spoken with/know quite a few top npc bodybuilders as well as pros and it never ceases to amaze me how ignorant they are to certain compounds and just take and follow the "supplement program" that their gurus have outlined for them without question. If Guru X says to take 'this', they take it without asking what it is or does. They pay and trust these guys to lead them to victory and I'm willing to bet that many people on this board are smarter/more knowledgeable when it comes to drugs than some pros are. Not all, but some.



Good point on #1. But is surely does call into question remarks made by Lee Priest as well as other pros that even if drugs did not exist, those who are pros would STILL be pros due to their outstanding genetic makeup. I find that comment to be quite delusional. Just because someone is the best on drugs, does not mean that they would be the best without drugs.

Besides the typical meathead bashing :p this is an overall good thread.

I agree, most bodybuilders are dumb. Most people are dumb, so by law of averages, most bodybuilders will be dumb too. I stand by my statement, a "smart bodybuilder" would probably not want that shit in their system. I believe a smart person can be a dumb bodybuilder however, if that makes sense.

and I don't take EQ or ever plan on it, so that doesn't change my thoughts on that.

[Taylor Normandeau]

To be honest at the beginning of the debate, all I was arguing against was the idea that ANYONE can be 250+ ripped with the right stack. There's "keeping it real" and there's being fucking careless and retarded. Anyone who thinks that frankly doesn't understand how different all humans are. I think it's dangerous for that mentality and idea to be spread on the internet. Giving uneducated people the thought that they can jump on some holy grail cycle and gain 125 lbs of muscle is beyond absurd. There is no secret stack. The difference between the pro's, and wannabe's, ISN'T THEIR FUCKING STACK. This is not my opinion. This is nature. It does not care if you agree.

Drugs are a chunk of it for sure. But the better you are and more dispositioned you are to adding lean mass, the less drugs you need. And that theory stretches to a point where no amount of drugs can compensate for your genes. NO AMOUNT. People need to stop spreading dangerous inaccurate information.

[GaryGranaas]

( New item added to our inventory )

Gary Granaas Front Lawn Dandelions!!! Guaranteed to make you in large and in charge like the Pro's!!!

:yep:

[Taylor Normandeau]

( New item added to our inventory )

Gary Granaas Front Lawn Dandelions!!! Guaranteed to make you in large and in charge like the Pro's!!!

:yep:


Mmmm

[MiamiMadePunk]

( New item added to our inventory )

Gary Granaas Front Lawn Dandelions!!! Guaranteed to make you in large and in charge like the Pro's!!!

:yep:





Now your just trolling

[GaryGranaas]

LOL this thread is confusing the hell out of me because it keeps twisting from one subject to another. I cant keep up.
Now your just trolling

[21htgnertsremmah]

To be honest at the beginning of the debate, all I was arguing against was the idea that ANYONE can be 250+ ripped with the right stack. There's "keeping it real" and there's being fucking careless and retarded. Anyone who thinks that frankly doesn't understand how different all humans are. I think it's dangerous for that mentality and idea to be spread on the internet. Giving uneducated people the thought that they can jump on some holy grail cycle and gain 125 lbs of muscle is beyond absurd. There is no secret stack. The difference between the pro's, and wannabe's, ISN'T THEIR FUCKING STACK. This is not my opinion. This is nature. It does not care if you agree.

Drugs are a chunk of it for sure. But the better you are and more dispositioned you are to adding lean mass, the less drugs you need. And that theory stretches to a point where no amount of drugs can compensate for your genes. NO AMOUNT. People need to stop spreading dangerous inaccurate information.

If you're blasting with heavy doses of gear for almost a decade and can't get up to 250 and fairly lean (not necessarily competition bf levels) then that's pretty fucking pathetic. That is not my opinion.

This is silly and I'm done with this thread. Keep convincing yourself that you'll turn pro doing your occasional Super DMZ cycle...

[Taylor Normandeau]

If you're blasting with heavy doses of gear for almost a decade and can't get up to 250 and fairly lean (not necessarily competition bf levels) then that's pretty fucking pathetic. That is not my opinion.

This is silly and I'm done with this thread. Keep convincing yourself that you'll turn pro doing your occasional Super DMZ cycle...

Some people HAVE PATHETIC GENETICS. That's what I'm saying.

I'm not even sure what you're trying to prove here. I love gear and would laugh at anyone who claims that relatively high doses are not necessary to turn pro. My point was that high doses won't make the genetically inferior specimens 250 and fairly lean. I think you're arguing against another imaginary person on the internet who is saying steroids are not important.

[Taylor Normandeau]

LOL this thread is confusing the hell out of me because it keeps twisting from one subject to another. I cant keep up.

I can't either and I'm right in the middle of it. I was seriously just stating that the idea that genetics don't factor into being HUGE and LEAN is ridiculous.

[Taylor Normandeau]

How bout that Men's Physique Division?

[Taylor Normandeau]

So Kai Greene's posing is gay, huh?

[Taylor Normandeau]

Guts.

[Taylor Normandeau]

Roelly needs a break.

[Gigatron]

lol, I remember back in high school thinkning that's what seperated the pro's from joe's. It gave me hope thinking that was all I needed was to find the "special cocktail" and BAMB, I could be in Flex magazine blasting the iron with Lee Priest all dream tanned up making snarling faces at each other. But realistically that's not the case. I can count the number of pro's on only one hand who've spoke openly with me about AAS and it seems there really is no special, exotic, secret, ninja, make you wanna slap yo momma formula. At the end of the day I believe it all comes down to genetics, knowing your body (ie, responce to food, training and AAS), pushing yourself to the limit based off what you know about your body, genetics and genetic aaaaannnnddd genetics........ but mainly......genetics.

:yep:

[Taylor Normandeau]

Branch Warren looks like shit.

[Taylor Normandeau]

There i just summed up the boards for the last 6 months, I'm gonna get high and forget this ever happened.

[Taylor Normandeau]

:yep:

I missed that post you quoted by NSP in my dazed out bickering, it's spot on.

[TitanicTriceps]

But the better you are and more dispositioned you are to adding lean mass, the less drugs you need. And that theory stretches to a point where no amount of drugs can compensate for your genes. NO AMOUNT. People need to stop spreading dangerous inaccurate information.
Couldn't have said it better myself. For example, I know a friend who's on 1000mg's of tren and test (all together, not 1000mg test & 1000mg tren) and my measurements from calves to biceps are bigger than his by quite noticeable margins (I'm 100% natural); out of chest, thigh, bicep, calf measurements the closest he comes out of any of them is bicep and I still got three quarters of a inch on him there at a lower bodyfat and I'm not holding half the water he is. Not to mention, his diet is perfect (he always has hard boiled eggs, chicken breasts, and protein shakes on him) and my diet is far from perfect. Regardless, he's strong as hell and I can't come close to beating him in any lifts besides squat, even though I was stronger than him across the board before he started using. Moral of the story is that he could abuse the shit out of his body using drugs for the next 10 years and he could never come close to 250 pounds; infact, at 5'8 and a bit I'd be suprised if he ever passes 200 (he will no doubt) without looking bloated and not in good shape (under 10%).

Those that think that everyone who is bigger than them is a pure result of drugs are extremely naive and must have low self esteem. I know the type and I laugh everytime someone whispers (not so much of a whisper when I can hear it clearly) to his workout buddy "this guys on..." as a detriment to how I obtained my physique, especially considering I'm natural. Then again, the are the same guys that can't even do 10 dips with their own bodyweight at 150 pounds (not kidding, I've seen the same people who've accused me not be able to do 10 half dips).

[nsp]

Branch Warren looks like shit.

That's just because he's got shitty genetics and needs to take more gear to compensate for it :yep:

[nsp]

This is silly and I'm done with this thread. Keep convincing yourself that you'll turn pro doing your occasional Super DMZ cycle...

eh c'mon! Don't give up now, I'm still in la la land.

[21htgnertsremmah]

eh c'mon! Don't give up now, I'm still in la la land.

Alright. Maybe another cycle of Super DMZ 'is in your future. Or better yet, some Methadrol extreme. I here dat stuff is pretty bitchin.

["Rodz"]

hammerstrength12, nice gimmick, now back to the other site

Just cause you wear a Superman shirt doesn't make you a hero man.

Why are you trying to be the interweb police???

[Nelford]

The Keto diet works but you better have a good amount of muscle on your frame or you will look like a string bean.

Carb cycling and Keto both get me in shape so I really didn't need to do Keto. I don't know if I was doing the Carb cycling right. I would eat 100-150g carbs Sun-Fri and then carb up on my first 3 meals on Sat. I got ripped off this plan.

[x100696]

Brian Dobson has had numerous times that Ronnie turned pro as a natural. What reason would he have to lie?

[machine]

I wouldnt even call being a lean 200 lbs pathetic genetics. Ive lived in the gym for the past 16 yrs...I'd say average is maybe 190-200 that ARE LEAN for people consistently training and using...

It's really rare to see a lean guy tipping the scales at 250...that's totally different end of the spectrum.

I wish I was a lean 250 :yep:

[Rambo2]

so much talk of weight, do you all mean at 5'10?

height is always necessary to mention with weight!

[BC123Jm]

I wouldnt even call being a lean 200 lbs pathetic genetics. Ive lived in the gym for the past 16 yrs...I'd say average is maybe 190-200 that ARE LEAN for people consistently training and using...

It's really rare to see a lean guy tipping the scales at 250...that's totally different end of the spectrum.

I wish I was a lean 250 :yep:


i've seen a pic you posted. you look good.
most peeps have no idea what lean and muscular is.
they like to think they have 8% bf, when its really 2x that.

[machine]

i've seen a pic you posted. you look good.
most peeps have no idea what lean and muscular is.
they like to think they have 8% bf, when its really 2x that.


Thanks B, I know I'm no national level bber. But I am one of the most muscular at both the gyms I train at...BUT certainly not the biggest. To actually see a legit Heavyweight Amateur is rare...I've been to tons of gyms and only see them at photo shoots lol.
There are a few guys probably close to 300 if not more, but they have what I call the Football player look. Then of course standing next to some of the Pros I feel like I dont even work out! :dunno:

[fitzy]

Here how bout this. If genetics determine your response to AAS, if you are 130 lbs, with a horrible genetics response to training and AAS, how many grams of gear will get you "FUCKING HUGE?"

Your right about the genetics thing, mysotatin levels definitely play a role in muscle growth and regulation regardless of how many drugs you can take. All these other guys have to do is look at Belgium blue cattle (myostatin deficiency) I don't think a normal cow could get as big as them regardless of the amount of anabolics and food they were feed.

[s2h]

Yes. Any abuse is dumb, but A) this thread didn't mention those B) DNP was never designed for human consumption, those products were. Correct me if I'm wrong but DNP was included into diet pills after people who were subject to it in an industrial setting were all losing weight like dying africans?actually your wrong..DNP was prescribed for human consumption in the early 1900's...it was prescribed for wieght loss..then pulled shortly after due to some peeps having probs with it...the very few(2-3)deaths from dnp in that era were linked to very high use or abuse...dnp when used in small controled amounts is safer then many other drugs used by BB's..

[Taylor Normandeau]

actually your wrong..DNP was prescribed for human consumption in the early 1900's...it was prescribed for wieght loss..then pulled shortly after due to some peeps having probs with it...the very few(2-3)deaths from dnp in that era were linked to very high use or abuse...dnp when used in small controled amounts is safer then many other drugs used by BB's..

How am I wrong? I am not claiming to know everything about it, but nothing you said counter-acts anything I said.

DNP was prescribed to people yes, but as far as all of my research tells me (that's all I can base this on) it wasn't developed for weight loss, it was a side effect to it's industrial use and then the weight loss possibilities were explored.

I havn't anywhere seen anything saying otherwise, so if you have something to show me that says it was developed for human use, I would like to read it, otherwise you claimed I am wrong then went on to state nothing that disagrees with anything I said.


If people want to use DNP cool, why is everyone jumping in like I insulted their mother? It's dangerous FACT, it can kill you much more easily than other common bodybuilding drugs if you aren't careful, and the original point that I was trying to make is that dozens and dozens of Farah's clients have claimed DNP had ZERO part in their prep, yet people assume that everyone else is lying and they are correct.

[Taylor Normandeau]

actually your wrong..DNP was prescribed for human consumption in the early 1900's...it was prescribed for wieght loss..then pulled shortly after due to some peeps having probs with it...the very few(2-3)deaths from dnp in that era were linked to very high use or abuse...dnp when used in small controled amounts is safer then many other drugs used by BB's..

It was used in diet pills in the 1930's by the way, it's industrial uses pre-date that by a couple decades. Please read my posts properly before claiming I am wrong, that seems rather unnecassary.

[fitzy]

DNP destroys the structure of cells (there is no evidence on what cells these are but anything that destroys cells should not be consumed), It inhibits ATP, cyanide also does this and kills you instantly, you don't want to start taking anything that inhibits or fucks with ATP, it's your life source. It melts the fact that insulates many nerve endings such as those in your eyes(cataracts) and spine you probably don't want to go destroying those nerves. It is a very fucked up drug and just because you don't die, doesn't mean you didn't do some serious damage that your not immediately aware of.

[BC123Jm]

It was used in diet pills in the 1930's by the way, it's industrial uses pre-date that by a couple decades. Please read my posts properly before claiming I am wrong, that seems rather unnecassary.


they also used to prescribe LSD to people.

[JohnnyStyles]

LOL...and i thought this was about Dave's Diet.....whoa what a twist lolz