Official keto thread

[Myth]

I've received permission from the mods to make this thread a sticky. All questions or comments regarding keto diets are welcome. Myself, as well as a few others on this board, are well-versed on the subject matter, so fire away!:)

[Frizzy]

Lets get it started. :beerbang:

[SBT]

So why do you think refeeds are more beneficial then a single cheat meal (which a few on here I think believe in, or that Dave suggests) when on a keto diet?

[Frosty]

So why do you think refeeds are more beneficial then a single cheat meal (which a few on here I think believe in, or that Dave suggests) when on a keto diet?


I think once you're very lean this is an option. However I also think it depends on your body and your level of activity. It should be experimented with. If you're getting fantastic results with one cheat meal, WHY do more? I believe in using the least amount of carbs to get the job done, and if it's getting done, adding more is not beneficial IMO.

This is best left to personal experimentation, being patient and noting the results in a methodical way. Start with one carb meal if you're lean. Add in a second and do that for 2-3 weeks. Are your results better? No? Then go back to one meal. Yes? Great, 2 meals is now what you should use. Perhaps then as you progress try 3 meals, note results over the next few weeks. Improvement? Yes? Keep it. No? Go back to 2 meals, etc. If you start slowing fat loss then you've gone too far and you should go back to what you were doing previously. This is your "sweet spot" for now.

I'm very much against going from one cheat meal and then BAM doing an entire cheat day. Too much of a jump. What if a half day is better? You don't know. There's no process involved here to really find out the best way.

There's no way to say "this is definitely the amount you should do and it works for everyone." So this type of experimenting is important in learning what works for your body.

For fat guys, I highly recommend against more than a single meal per week.

[Myth]

I think once you're very lean this is an option. However I also think it depends on your body and your level of activity. It should be experimented with. If you're getting fantastic results with one cheat meal, WHY do more? I believe in using the least amount of carbs to get the job done, and if it's getting done, adding more is not beneficial IMO.

This is best left to personal experimentation, being patient and noting the results in a methodical way. Start with one carb meal if you're lean. Add in a second and do that for 2-3 weeks. Are your results better? No? Then go back to one meal. Yes? Great, 2 meals is now what you should use. Perhaps then as you progress try 3 meals, note results over the next few weeks. Improvement? Yes? Keep it. No? Go back to 2 meals, etc. If you start slowing fat loss then you've gone too far and you should go back to what you were doing previously. This is your "sweet spot" for now.

I'm very much against going from one cheat meal and then BAM doing an entire cheat day. Too much of a jump. What if a half day is better? You don't know. There's no process involved here to really find out the best way.

There's no way to say "this is definitely the amount you should do and it works for everyone." So this type of experimenting is important in learning what works for your body.

For fat guys, I highly recommend against more than a single meal per week.

Perfectly stated, bro. Glad to have you as part of the team:):beerbang:

[gman]

I can chime in on the meal. I used the one meal Dave allowed as an excuse to pig out. It didn't affect me the first few weeks, but I gained 4 lbs the last two weeks, and did not cheat any other time other than the cheat meal.

Dave advised me to cut the cheat meal down to a reasonable size meal, and I was up zero pounds the next morning (this past weekend).

I agree, the least amount of carbs needed to stoke the fire, the better. Hopefully this will get me back on track of losing a lb or two a week!

[Quadzilla02]

what are some of the number thats people have lost in the first week or second week on the diet...or if you lost any.

[GirlyMuscle]

Is there a way to speed up getting into ketosis? I find that if I have my cheat on Saturday night I don't get into ketosis until Wednesday.

[Frizzy]

Is there a way to speed up getting into ketosis? I find that if I have my cheat on Saturday night I don't get into ketosis until Wednesday.

I would not worry about being in ketosis as much as just being in a deficient when it comes to consuming calories. Also the longer you use the diet the more efficient your body becomes at entering a keto state.

[gman]

what are some of the number thats people have lost in the first week or second week on the diet...or if you lost any.

I lost 4 the first week, and only 1 the second week.

I hear of people losing lots more than that, but I was pretty happy with the results because I was not on low cal keto.

[Dan]

Hi Myth

Great to see you over here, i was just wanting to know what you recommend in regards to off season carb cycling? Such as how many carbs per lb and which meals.

Im currently taking in Meal1 PostWO1 and PostWO2 with carbs figured based on BW divided by 3 split between these meals

Do you recommend skiploading or smaller carb refeeds in the offseason?

Thanks in advance!

[GirlyMuscle]

I would not worry about being in ketosis as much as just being in a deficient when it comes to consuming calories. Also the longer you use the diet the more efficient your body becomes at entering a keto state.
The reason I ask is I deal with cravings and headaches until I'm in ketosis so I'm trying to minimize them. The faster I'm in ketosis, the longer I feel good.

[Frizzy]

Hi Myth

Great to see you over here, i was just wanting to know what you recommend in regards to off season carb cycling? Such as how many carbs per lb and which meals.

Im currently taking in Meal1 PostWO1 and PostWO2 with carbs figured based on BW divided by 3 split between these meals

Do you recommend skiploading or smaller carb refeeds in the offseason?

Thanks in advance!

I believe myth suggest LBM x .75-1g carbs Meal 1 PWO,PWO2. As for refeed I think 1 meal last meal of the day to keep the fat at away and your metabolism primed.

[-BLP-]

1 big yams for me it enough, sunday before bed, if i touch simple carbs i come crazy n wont stop so... Complex carbs with nothing else in moderate amount, full me up real good

[Frosty]

Is there a way to speed up getting into ketosis? I find that if I have my cheat on Saturday night I don't get into ketosis until Wednesday.

Leucine. 5g per meal for at least the first few meals the day after the cheat.

[Frosty]

My cheat meal I'm eating right now:

2 double Whoppers
1 brownie
5 York Peppermint Patties
1 12oz bag of Hershey's Miniatures
6 Strawberry Eclair bars

[Dan]

I believe myth suggest LBM x .75-1g carbs Meal 1 PWO,PWO2. As for refeed I think 1 meal last meal of the day to keep the fat at away and your metabolism primed.
Am I right in guessing this is done say every 7 days or so?

[Frosty]

Am I right in guessing this is done say every 7 days or so?

Yeah once a week is good for most people.

[Kolbe]

About not getting back to ketosis:
I read that dave suggest that women do not eat more than 100g of carbs in the cheat meal. I've tried that. I didn't have cravings or headaches the next day. That being said I've had better results having a bigger amount of carbs. Cravings the next day, yes, but a bigger fatloss..

[Frosty]

About not getting back to ketosis:
I read that dave suggest that women do not eat more than 100g of carbs in the cheat meal. I've tried that. I didn't have cravings or headaches the next day. That being said I've had better results having a bigger amount of carbs. Cravings the next day, yes, but a bigger fatloss..


Me personally I seem to get better results with bigger cheats. The pic in my avatar I was a bit under 10% but I did get leaner from there...veins in lower abs and striated triceps. My cheats were sometimes absolutely terrible. Once was a grocery bag full of candy bars (ugh!). But I sure did get lean.

I had an embarrassing moment at work one time where I did a cheat meal on a Saturday and I ate so much that I was in the bathroom trying to make myself throw up because I was in so much pain from eating too much. I had to tell my boss I felt sick and threw up and went home and went to sleep. Another time I was over someone's place for a BBQ and I ate so much I was in the bathroom heaving (although not throwing up). Yeah...that's too far. But still I got in good shape! LOL

I've since learned to control that more without stuffing myself painfully, but I still eat a lot (like my cheat meal I just had and listed).

[-BLP-]

Leucine. 5g per meal for at least the first few meals the day after the cheat.

and how leucine will do that? im curious ...

thk u

[LANCE SPENCER]

hi to all im on my 2nd week of keto and i havent droped a pound but but fat level has gone down a lot,i mean i could grab fat around the waist line big time now i have almost nothing does this make sence??i do have to say ive started test this week too,by the way has anyone calculated how many calories a 200lb person needs on keto??thanks

[Frizzy]

My cheat meal I'm eating right now:

2 double Whoppers
1 brownie
5 York Peppermint Patties
1 12oz bag of Hershey's Miniatures
6 Strawberry Eclair bars

Nice :] I would stay away from the whoppers though to much fat for me :(!

My last one was...
1.3 Onion Bagels with FF cream cheese(strawberry)
2.3 Big mixing bowls if assorted kids cereal whole grain.
3.1 failed attempt at home made pizza but I scarfed it down.
4.Home made nacho chilli fries.
5.Low fat ice Cream with brownies & french toast

[Frizzy]

hi to all im on my 2nd week of keto and i havent droped a pound but but fat level has gone down a lot,i mean i could grab fat around the waist line big time now i have almost nothing does this make sence??i do have to say ive started test this week too,by the way has anyone calculated how many calories a 200lb person needs on keto??thanks

What is your Lbm?

[LANCE SPENCER]

im just under 220lb at 5,11

[Frizzy]

What % body fat?

[LANCE SPENCER]

no idea but i can see my abbs a little,hope that helps

[Frosty]

and how leucine will do that? im curious ...

thk u

Insulin.

[Frosty]

Nice :] I would stay away from the whoppers though to much fat for me :(!

My last one was...
1.3 Onion Bagels with FF cream cheese(strawberry)
2.3 Big mixing bowls if assorted kids cereal whole grain.
3.1 failed attempt at home made pizza but I scarfed it down.
4.Home made nacho chilli fries.
5.Low fat ice Cream with brownies & french toast

I prefer my cheats to have good amounts of fat. I crave fats and I feel they're more productive for me this way.

[Karuk]

Hello Frosty and Myth.

I have ran the keto diet twice. 1st 12 weeks I lost 25 lbs and 6 inches off my waist. 2nd 12 week run I lost 6 lbs and 0 inches off my waist. Ran the exact same protocol.

Only time I have to train and do cardio is between 4:45 to 6:15 am. I have a family that need me at night. I wake up at 3:30am to take pre-workout drink and "grow a tail".

With only an hour and a half per day to train and do cardio I don't have the option to increase cardio (unless I cut back on training).

Should I lower calories, cut out cheat meals, or reduce training to drop fat.

FYI. I run a tech support dept so I sit on my ass most of the day.
Stats: 229lbs 5'8 at about 20% bf.

[Myth]

I can chime in on the meal. I used the one meal Dave allowed as an excuse to pig out. It didn't affect me the first few weeks, but I gained 4 lbs the last two weeks, and did not cheat any other time other than the cheat meal.

Dave advised me to cut the cheat meal down to a reasonable size meal, and I was up zero pounds the next morning (this past weekend).

I agree, the least amount of carbs needed to stoke the fire, the better. Hopefully this will get me back on track of losing a lb or two a week!

You shouldn't be worried about water gain after a refeed day bro. I consistently gain 18-25lb post-refeed and drop it all 3-4 days later, and end up lighter than the week before. We are all different, so you must experiment.

MY GOAL OF A REFEED IS TO SHOOT FOR A POINT THAT ALLOWS ME TO SIMULTANEOUSLY CONSUME THE HIGHEST NUMBER OF CARBS POSSIBLE WHILE YIELDING THE OPTIMAL EFFICIENCY, IN TERMS OF FAT LOSS, METABOLIC ELEVATION, GLYCOGEN STORAGE, ETC...ALL WITH THE MINIMUM AMOUNT OF FAT DEPOSITION.

To be honest, any substantial amount of fat gain resulting from a single refeed day or cheat meal is virtually neglible/impossible. Even if I do gain some fat from that ONE day, to me it is like taing one step back in rder to progress 5 steps forward. As opposed to a single measly cheat meal, whereby I would be taking 0 steps back, but only 1-2 steps forward. :)


what are some of the number thats people have lost in the first week or second week on the diet...or if you lost any.

Answers will inevitably have a huge variance, so there really is no point in taking heed to anyone else's results. I would say that some of the main variables that affect weight loss/gain at the onset of the keto diet are: your diet prior to keto (carbs, calories, meal frequency, macro composition, etc), training experience, supplementation, "other" supplementation, etc. That is why, for example, one 200lb man cannot expect the same results following the same diet as another 200lb man, as everyone's biochemistry is unique.

That is why I like to use the following formula as a baseline for keto macros: .25g protein and .1g fat per pound lean body mass eaten every 2.5-3hrs one is awake.

Then you would simply adjust FATS up or down from there after assessing progress every couple weeks.



Hi Myth

Great to see you over here, i was just wanting to know what you recommend in regards to off season carb cycling? Such as how many carbs per lb and which meals.

Im currently taking in Meal1 PostWO1 and PostWO2 with carbs figured based on BW divided by 3 split between these meals

Do you recommend skiploading or smaller carb refeeds in the offseason?

Thanks in advance!

3 carb meals is good. If you want to carb cycle, I would start with AVERAGING .75-1g carb per pound LBM. Example: my LBM=180, so I would average 150g carbs per day. Then if I wanted to cycle carbs, I would keep the same 150g average, but make my high day 200g and my low day 100g.

Yes I recommend refeeds in the offseason or onseason. Obviously your refeed days wont need to be as intense (carb-dense) as when you are cutting, but they still need to be implemented, nonetheless, to keep fat levels at bay (by stoking the metabolism) and restocking glycogen (especially if carb cycling).


Is there a way to speed up getting into ketosis? I find that if I have my cheat on Saturday night I don't get into ketosis until Wednesday.

Personally I always do a long slow duration cardio session the day after, such as hiking for a few hours, running a half marathon, biking 30 miles, etc. Works every time;)


Me personally I seem to get better results with bigger cheats. The pic in my avatar I was a bit under 10% but I did get leaner from there...veins in lower abs and striated triceps. My cheats were sometimes absolutely terrible. Once was a grocery bag full of candy bars (ugh!). But I sure did get lean.

I had an embarrassing moment at work one time where I did a cheat meal on a Saturday and I ate so much that I was in the bathroom trying to make myself throw up because I was in so much pain from eating too much. I had to tell my boss I felt sick and threw up and went home and went to sleep. Another time I was over someone's place for a BBQ and I ate so much I was in the bathroom heaving (although not throwing up). Yeah...that's too far. But still I got in good shape! LOL

I've since learned to control that more without stuffing myself painfully, but I still eat a lot (like my cheat meal I just had and listed).

I've been thru the exact same thing bro. Now I have finally learned how to eat till I am on the verge of being uncomfortable, but not quite. It's truly an art to know how far to push yourself:)


I prefer my cheats to have good amounts of fat. I crave fats and I feel they're more productive for me this way.

What would you estimate your macro composition to be for your cheats? Do you just have single meal or all day dirty cheats? Also, do you have a fast metabolism? Or have you conditioned yourself in such a way?

[Frosty]

What would you estimate your macro composition to be for your cheats? Do you just have single meal or all day dirty cheats? Also, do you have a fast metabolism? Or have you conditioned yourself in such a way?

I do a single meal, one sitting. I don't have a fast metabolism. I tend to gain or lose weight easily. The macros I have no idea. From the list you can tell it's quite high in fat. I don't usually get very excited over just sugary stuff. The only low fat stuff I like are things like spaghetti, rice, and breads. Fatty stuff is satisfying to me.

[Frosty]

Hello Frosty and Myth.

I have ran the keto diet twice. 1st 12 weeks I lost 25 lbs and 6 inches off my waist. 2nd 12 week run I lost 6 lbs and 0 inches off my waist. Ran the exact same protocol.

Only time I have to train and do cardio is between 4:45 to 6:15 am. I have a family that need me at night. I wake up at 3:30am to take pre-workout drink and "grow a tail".

With only an hour and a half per day to train and do cardio I don't have the option to increase cardio (unless I cut back on training).

Should I lower calories, cut out cheat meals, or reduce training to drop fat.

FYI. I run a tech support dept so I sit on my ass most of the day.
Stats: 229lbs 5'8 at about 20% bf.

The answer depends on your current diet. Would you mind posting it exactly (amounts and everything) so we can help?

[reutacris]

Pre-Contest, when do you guys take cheat meals out completely? Currently, I am 3 weeks out this Saturday. My original plan was that last Friday night's cheat meal would be my last, however I still lost 1.5 lbs this week and I read somewhere that you do not need to take cheat meals out if you are still losing weight. Should I go ahead and have a cheat meal this Friday then? Or maybe should I eat carbs for one meal, just not "cheat" foods? Or should I stick with my plan and not do cheats anymore?

Thanks in advance,
Chad

[Myth]

Pre-Contest, when do you guys take cheat meals out completely? Currently, I am 3 weeks out this Saturday. My original plan was that last Friday night's cheat meal would be my last, however I still lost 1.5 lbs this week and I read somewhere that you do not need to take cheat meals out if you are still losing weight. Should I go ahead and have a cheat meal this Friday then? Or maybe should I eat carbs for one meal, just not "cheat" foods? Or should I stick with my plan and not do cheats anymore?

Thanks in advance,
Chad

I don't believe in cheat meals; I believe in refeed meals. I don't drop them before a contest; I increase them as I near a contest.

Contemplate this: one of the main reasons you are still dropping weight is the cheat meal, so would it make sense to drop the cheat meal at ANY point in the diet if you are still losing weight? Of course not! If it aint broke, don't fix it:)

[Frosty]

And to add to that, do what's been working this far. Don't go changing things if it's working. That's how people get messed up before a show by tweaking all kinds of shit that was working just great.

[-BLP-]

Nice :] I would stay away from the whoppers though to much fat for me :(!

My last one was...
1.3 Onion Bagels with FF cream cheese(strawberry)
2.3 Big mixing bowls if assorted kids cereal whole grain.
3.1 failed attempt at home made pizza but I scarfed it down.
4.Home made nacho chilli fries.
5.Low fat ice Cream with brownies & french toast


failed attempt omg that happen to me , your so piss and eat it anw LOL

[MusclesMarinara]

Did anyone try the leucine with meals? It tastes horrible and i dont wanna be consuming 20g a day if it doesnt put into ketosis faster =)

[Frosty]

Leucine is an awesome supplement that is worth every penny. It is extremely solid and does great things, especially on this type of diet when trying to cut. I do 5g with 3 meals separated. This is every day. Only after a cheat do I do extra leucine.

[MusclesMarinara]

A quick rundown of my diet is..

1- 45g wpi w/ 1tbs anpb
2- 3 eggs 4 whites
3- 8oz chicken, 1/3 cup almonds or cashews
4- 45g wpi w/ 1tbs anpb
5- 8oz red meat or fish w/ salad & oil n vinegar
6- 3 hard boiled eggs with 4 egg whites

so i should add leucine to meals 1 4 and 6 and on the day after the cheat it should be 1-6?

[Frosty]

A quick rundown of my diet is..

1- 45g wpi w/ 1tbs anpb
2- 3 eggs 4 whites
3- 8oz chicken, 1/3 cup almonds or cashews
4- 45g wpi w/ 1tbs anpb
5- 8oz red meat or fish w/ salad & oil n vinegar
6- 3 hard boiled eggs with 4 egg whites

so i should add leucine to meals 1 4 and 6 and on the day after the cheat it should be 1-6?


That would work.

Just a quick comment....how come your meals are so uneven? Your egg meals are just over 30g of protein, and your chicken meal is like 70g of protein, and your protein shake meals are like 8g of fat and your chicken/almond meal is over 30g.

[flipper]

Glad to see you over here Myth. Quick question, what do you think of doing FST-7 training while on keto? Thanks

[Myth]

Glad to see you over here Myth. Quick question, what do you think of doing FST-7 training while on keto? Thanks

Sorry bro, but I don't know enough about the program to give an educated answer. I do know this, though: on a keto diet, low volume, high intensity is optimal.

[Frosty]

Glad to see you over here Myth. Quick question, what do you think of doing FST-7 training while on keto? Thanks


This is doable IF you use PWO carbs only, in my opinion. If you use say 50g of Vitargo PWO you will get the carbs you need and you will never get out of fat burning mode. Structure the diet the same otherwise...just add those PWO carbs.

This is of course if you're under 10% bodyfat (a clear six pack).

This is also of course if you've been on a keto type diet for a month or more. You want strong adaptation to this diet to make this work properly.

[gman]

You shouldn't be worried about water gain after a refeed day bro. I consistently gain 18-25lb post-refeed and drop it all 3-4 days later, and end up lighter than the week before. We are all different, so you must experiment.

MY GOAL OF A REFEED IS TO SHOOT FOR A POINT THAT ALLOWS ME TO SIMULTANEOUSLY CONSUME THE HIGHEST NUMBER OF CARBS POSSIBLE WHILE YIELDING THE OPTIMAL EFFICIENCY, IN TERMS OF FAT LOSS, METABOLIC ELEVATION, GLYCOGEN STORAGE, ETC...ALL WITH THE MINIMUM AMOUNT OF FAT DEPOSITION.

To be honest, any substantial amount of fat gain resulting from a single refeed day or cheat meal is virtually neglible/impossible. Even if I do gain some fat from that ONE day, to me it is like taing one step back in rder to progress 5 steps forward. As opposed to a single measly cheat meal, whereby I would be taking 0 steps back, but only 1-2 steps forward. :)



I understand what you are saying and conceptually agree with it,and think it works for most people, but maybe because I am older, have so much to lose, or any number of factors, the fact is I gained 5 lbs overnight, then only lost 2 of them during the week, and ended up +3.

This week, I gained 0 lbs on my cheat, and have lost 2, so I am down 2, still up 1 from pre cheat weight 2 cheat meals ago!

I just will keep it reasonable and not gorge to the gills like I was doing and see if it works. What you say works for everyone else, just wanted to say there is one person the jury is still out on! :eek:

[gman]

I have to add, if you look at my results, most guys have lost as much in the first week or 2 as it has taken me 9 weeks to lose. I was down 13 in 7 weeks, but gained a net 4 lbs in weeks 8 and 9. The big cheat meals I think brought my daily average way up and slowed the weight loss down. I don't think keto is magic, you still have to eat less than you burn.

OK, let's carry on now. Ondrea told me to keep it positive and not stress about it so much, and I am taking her advice, ROCK ON!

[Karuk]

Proteins
Protein
Carbs
Fat
Calories
Servings
Total Cals
Protein
Carbs
Fat
EAS Protein Powder


27

3

2

140

1

140

27

3

2
On Choco protein


21

4

1.5

120

1

120

21

4

1.5


0

0

0

0


0

0

0

0
Eggs 1 whole


7

0.4

5

80

2

160

14

0.8

10
Egg Beaters 1/2 Carton


24

4

0

120

1

120

24

4

0


0

0

0

0
Sirloin Burger (costco)


30

0

23

330

1

330

30

0

23


0

0

0

0
Chicken 4 0z


25

0

0.5

100

1.25

125

31.25

0

0.63
Broccolli


30

3

0

30

2

60

60

6

0


0

0

0

0
EAS Protein Powder


27

3

2

140

1

140

27

3

2
On Choco protein


21

4

1.5

120

1

120

21

4

1.5
Mac Nut oil


0

0

14

120

1

120

0

0

14


0

0

0

0
Chicken 4 0z


25

0

0.5

100

1.25

125

31.25

0

0.63
Broccolli


0

3

0

30

2

60

0

6

0


0

0

0

0
Eggs 1 whole


7

0.4

5

80

3

240

21

1.2

15
Egg Beaters 1/2 Carton


24

4

0

120

1

120

24

4

0


0

0

0

0


0

0

0

0
Fish oil


0

0

1

10

5

50

0

0

5


0

0

0

0


2030

331.5

36

75.25

[Karuk]

My diet

[MusclesMarinara]

That would work.

Just a quick comment....how come your meals are so uneven? Your egg meals are just over 30g of protein, and your chicken meal is like 70g of protein, and your protein shake meals are like 8g of fat and your chicken/almond meal is over 30g.

What would you recommend i do to even them out? This is my first diet and i'm trying to do it on my own, i've seen some progress but maybe ill see more if i make some changes. My LBM is between 155 and 160 I don't know for sure. Any help is appreciated

[-BLP-]

i like fat burner on keto i know it do some muscle waste but what can i do to countereffect this?

[Frosty]

I have to add, if you look at my results, most guys have lost as much in the first week or 2 as it has taken me 9 weeks to lose. I was down 13 in 7 weeks, but gained a net 4 lbs in weeks 8 and 9. The big cheat meals I think brought my daily average way up and slowed the weight loss down. I don't think keto is magic, you still have to eat less than you burn.

OK, let's carry on now. Ondrea told me to keep it positive and not stress about it so much, and I am taking her advice, ROCK ON!


I think you're doing the right thing. Keep up the good work. It's all about what works for you and you're figuring it out. I do believe when you get older your metabolism is different. Keep in mind I'm 23 and a lot of us guys are a bit younger, so that can make a difference.

[Frosty]

i like fat burner on keto i know it do some muscle waste but what can i do to countereffect this?

Leucine. Seriously. 5g per meal for 3 meals. For example, with Meals 1, 3, 5.

Caffeine by itself is still a tried and true fat loss tool and can be less stressful on the body than some of the potent stimulant fat burners out there.

[Frosty]

What would you recommend i do to even them out? This is my first diet and i'm trying to do it on my own, i've seen some progress but maybe ill see more if i make some changes. My LBM is between 155 and 160 I don't know for sure. Any help is appreciated


I'm at work so I can't lay everything out right now. What is your bodyfat percentage approx, and your current weight? I'll help you lay out a diet later when I get home.

[flipper]

You seem to be very big on the Leucine, I'm going to give it a try. What are all the total benefits of it?

[gman]

I think you're doing the right thing. Keep up the good work. It's all about what works for you and you're figuring it out. I do believe when you get older your metabolism is different. Keep in mind I'm 23 and a lot of us guys are a bit younger, so that can make a difference.

Yeah, I keep wondering when Dave is going to finally cut my calories, instead he just keeps upping my cardio. I am up to 100 minutes, 7 days a week now! lol 7% of my entire existence is on the treadmill! hahaha

Hey I just do what he says, he knows what he's doing. It's all good and I am learning about how my body works, so come what may, I am a healthier and more intelligent person for doing this.

[MusclesMarinara]

I'm at work so I can't lay everything out right now. What is your bodyfat percentage approx, and your current weight? I'll help you lay out a diet later when I get home.

Last time i checked was 185 at 17%, but its gone down since then. Ill check my weight when i go to the gym today, no scale in my apt yet =(

[Frosty]

Last time i checked was 185 at 17%, but its gone down since then. Ill check my weight when i go to the gym today, no scale in my apt yet =(

(bwt in lbs)*1.5=277.5g PRO, 46.25g PRO/meal (6 meals)

(bwt in lbs)*0.5=92.5g FAT, 15.4g FAT/meal (6 meals)


So, 149g cooked chicken breast. Plus 3g fish oil and 15g almonds or 11g macadamia nuts. 1/2 cup low carb veggies. This is a good meal choice.

Protein powder to get the 46g protein, 3g fish oil, plus 24g almonds or 16g macadamia nuts.

Skip the eggs for now and give this a try. Meat keeps you a lot fuller than eggs.

So you can set it up like this:

Meal 1: Chicken, nuts, veg, fish oil
Meal 2: Whey, nuts, fish oil
Meal 3: Chicken, nuts, veg, fish oil
Meal 4: Whey, nuts, fish oil
Meal 5: Chicken, nuts, veg, fish oil
Meal 6: Chicken, nuts, veg, fish oil

Yes, I didn't include peanut butter. I did this for a reason.

[flipper]

I have asked Dave about this myself as I was unhappy with a little extra gut BUT wanted to stay strong for some Strongman stuff coming up.

He said to follow his diet as outlined EXCEPT for the meal Before training! This meal should be 50g of whey pro and 1 scoop of Waxi maize (apx 35g of carbs). This is a good enough amount to fuel your training session but not so much that it will knock you out of ketosis. EVERYTHING else remains the SAME!
I hijacked this from another thread, I was thinking of trying this with the fst-7 training, what do you guys think?

[-BLP-]

Thks bro i did not have the courage for powder i did get leukic pill format , i can use till contest prep day ?

[Frosty]

(bwt in lbs)*1.5=277.5g PRO, 46.25g PRO/meal (6 meals)

(bwt in lbs)*0.5=92.5g FAT, 15.4g FAT/meal (6 meals)


So, 149g cooked chicken breast. Plus 3g fish oil and 15g almonds or 11g macadamia nuts. 1/2 cup low carb veggies. This is a good meal choice.

Protein powder to get the 46g protein, 3g fish oil, plus 24g almonds or 16g macadamia nuts.

Skip the eggs for now and give this a try. Meat keeps you a lot fuller than eggs.

So you can set it up like this:

Meal 1: Chicken, nuts, veg, fish oil
Meal 2: Whey, nuts, fish oil
Meal 3: Chicken, nuts, veg, fish oil
Meal 4: Whey, nuts, fish oil
Meal 5: Chicken, nuts, veg, fish oil
Meal 6: Chicken, nuts, veg, fish oil

Yes, I didn't include peanut butter. I did this for a reason.

1 of these with each meal (120 day supply):

http://www.vitacost.com/NSI-Mega-EFA-Omega-3-EPA-DHA

2 of these with each meal (90 day supply):

http://www.vitacost.com/Carlson-Super-DHA

[MusclesMarinara]

1 of these with each meal (120 day supply):

http://www.vitacost.com/NSI-Mega-EFA-Omega-3-EPA-DHA

2 of these with each meal (90 day supply):

http://www.vitacost.com/Carlson-Super-DHA

thats alot of chicken, no red meat?? and why no PB, not questioning you, just curious:beerbang:

[Frosty]

thats alot of chicken, no red meat?? and why no PB, not questioning you, just curious:beerbang:

Red meat is okay in moderation, but if you do it's 175g cooked of a LEAN cut and no additional fat from nuts...just the fish oil.

The reason for the no peanut butter is that peanuts are very high in omega-6 fats. We want to swing the balance in the opposite direction and have a high omega-3 diet. Chicken already has plenty of omega-6 fats, so we don't need to directly add it like you would with peanut butter.

I've also heard about common molds and some side effects from them in many natural peanut butters. This may or may not be an issue. but because of the first reason, it's definitely out in a serious cut diet, in my opinion.

Almond butter is a fine replacement. However macadamia nut butter and the nuts have a better fat profile, but some variation is good.

[Frosty]

You seem to be very big on the Leucine, I'm going to give it a try. What are all the total benefits of it?


I know they're selling it, but the info is decent on it's benefits:

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding_supp lements/special_report_unleash_the_full_anabolic_potential _of_food

[Frosty]

Thks bro i did not have the courage for powder i did get leukic pill format , i can use till contest prep day ?

No idea man. It's not just leucine...it's some modified form. I have no idea on its effectiveness or how it might affect prep. I am not a fan of novel compounds like this because the normal l-leucine has science to back it and is well proven, but these forms seem to be based on theory and not scientific data. Like creatine ethyl ester. People were all ga ga over it, but then it started to leak out that plain old creatine monohydrate, the one with all the scientific data on it, was better. In other words, I wouldn't pass on a scientifically backed supplement for some other form that may be pretty worthless for all we know right now.

[-BLP-]

No idea man. It's not just leucine...it's some modified form. I have no idea on its effectiveness or how it might affect prep. I am not a fan of novel compounds like this because the normal l-leucine has science to back it and is well proven, but these forms seem to be based on theory and not scientific data. Like creatine ethyl ester. People were all ga ga over it, but then it started to leak out that plain old creatine monohydrate, the one with all the scientific data on it, was better. In other words, I wouldn't pass on a scientifically backed supplement for some other form that may be pretty worthless for all we know right now.

wow ok good to know i went to the store and that what the guy give me.. i thought muscle tech is a legetimate compagny .. anw at 5 gr every two meals, that botttle will last me 10 days and im 11 weeks out so i use it , and switch to powder like you said .. i love keto, never hungry but my god 20 pounds in 2 weeks , it true i was stocky and stop insulin and creatine and was eating junk crap 24/7 with no cardio , now cardio and dieting wow boom i went to pregnant gh belly to see my abs slightly , my weight is more stable now

thk u

[Frosty]

wow ok good to know i went to the store and that what the guy give me.. i thought muscle tech is a legetimate compagny .. anw at 5 gr every two meals, that botttle will last me 10 days and im 11 weeks out so i use it , and switch to powder like you said .. i love keto, never hungry but my god 20 pounds in 2 weeks , it true i was stocky and stop insulin and creatine and was eating junk crap 24/7 with no cardio , now cardio and dieting wow boom i went to pregnant gh belly to see my abs slightly , my weight is more stable now

thk u


Keep up the good work. I dropped 20 lbs pretty quickly when I started, too. I'm always here to help you modify things if your progress slows/stalls.

[MusclesMarinara]

So would something like this be ok…
1- WPI Shake or Chicken Meal
2- 149g chicken, 3g fish oil, 15g almonds, ½ cup veggies
3- Whey Protein Isolate Shake w/ almond or mac nut butter
4- Whey Protein Isolate Shake w/ almond or mac nut butter
5- 149g chicken, 3g fish oil, 15g almonds, ½ cup veggies
6- 175g lean ground beef, 3g fish oil, green salad w/ 0 carb dressing

[Frosty]

Yeah that would be fine. I prefer meat for breakfast, though. It helps keep you fuller all day long.

Give that a shot and let me know how it works out in a few weeks.

[sizeon]

fruit is not good on ckd for geting back into keto, how bout milk?

[Frosty]

fruit is not good on ckd for geting back into keto, how bout milk?

For a carb meal or PWO?

[sizeon]

For a carb meal or PWO?
they say no fruit on a carb up day cuzz it will be longer to get back into keto, correct, i heard the same about milk is this true?

[Frosty]

they say no fruit on a carb up day cuzz it will be longer to get back into keto, correct, i heard the same about milk is this true?

I've never heard that and I don't think it's an issue. Very often fruits are recommended early in a carb day to help facilitate liver glycogen repletion, and in my opinion, it can be good to have the earlier meals that support more balanced blood sugar levels because breakfast influeces the rest of the day. Then the rest of the day moving towards more starchy carbs.

A lot of people skip milk if they're concerned about possible water retention and for many it causes digestive issues, but even when I cut I very often use fruit and milk always manages to find its way in there because I love it, and that works quite well.

[thesamewords]

I've never heard that and I don't think it's an issue. Very often fruits are recommended early in a carb day to help facilitate liver glycogen repletion, and in my opinion, it can be good to have the earlier meals that support more balanced blood sugar levels because breakfast influeces the rest of the day. Then the rest of the day moving towards more starchy carbs.

A lot of people skip milk if they're concerned about possible water retention and for many it causes digestive issues, but even when I cut I very often use fruit and milk always manages to find its way in there because I love it, and that works quite well.
I agree Frosty. Sometimes milk gives people the guts, but when its time to load carbs, thats what I go for. Just to keep it real... I was purple while drinking milk so it was never a problem until I hit a plateau. Most of my carbs are cleaner to begin with, so I am not the first person to reach for a dessert anyway. At the top of the day I get fruit and later on beans. My favorite food to load is actually beans though.:D

[jjjohns_10]

Already posted this as a thread but was told i should post it here as well. Any input would be great:

Like most of you looking at this, i'm following Dave's Keto diet and it is working very well. Been using Isopure Zero Carb for my whey protein.
But let's face it, protein like this is expensive. I found 10lb bags of Optimum Nutrition (http://forums.rxmuscle.com/showthread.php?t=5940#) (ON) Whey protein isolate on a site for $79 a bag; not a bad price!!! However for two scoops (48 grams protein), there is 6 grams of carbs.

What do you guys think? Okay or not okay while on this diet?

If not okay, anyone else using a good quality Zero Carb whey protein that doesn't cost an arm and a leg?

[Frosty]

Already posted this as a thread but was told i should post it here as well. Any input would be great:

Like most of you looking at this, i'm following Dave's Keto diet and it is working very well. Been using Isopure Zero Carb for my whey protein.
But let's face it, protein like this is expensive. I found 10lb bags of Optimum Nutrition (http://forums.rxmuscle.com/showthread.php?t=5940#) (ON) Whey protein isolate on a site for $79 a bag; not a bad price!!! However for two scoops (48 grams protein), there is 6 grams of carbs.

What do you guys think? Okay or not okay while on this diet?

If not okay, anyone else using a good quality Zero Carb whey protein that doesn't cost an arm and a leg?

That's a significant amount of carbs for the amount of protein.

I get mine from www.trueprotein.com (http://www.trueprotein.com) since I can customize it however I want. I get a form of isolate (a handful to choose from) and I even make a percentage of it concentrate to save some money but not have a lot of carbs. Customize flavor, if it has any additives like enzymes, vitamins/minerals, and it's very affordable good quality whey.

[jjjohns_10]

That's a significant amount of carbs for the amount of protein.

I get mine from www.trueprotein.com (http://www.trueprotein.com) since I can customize it however I want. I get a form of isolate (a handful to choose from) and I even make a percentage of it concentrate to save some money but not have a lot of carbs. Customize flavor, if it has any additives like enzymes, vitamins/minerals, and it's very affordable good quality whey.


I'm a big food guy. i usually only do 1 shake per day instead of the usual 3 because that many shakes leaves me starving so i replace them with meals. with that in mind, still okay?

[Frosty]

I'm a big food guy. i usually only do 1 shake per day instead of the usual 3 because that many shakes leaves me starving so i replace them with meals. with that in mind, still okay?


Should be fine if you use oil with the shakes and not almonds, and your total carbs are under 40 or so net.

[thesamewords]

I'm a big food guy. i usually only do 1 shake per day instead of the usual 3 because that many shakes leaves me starving so i replace them with meals. with that in mind, still okay?


Should be fine if you use oil with the shakes and not almonds, and your total carbs are under 40 or so net.
If im not eating eggs on a certain day, I pour my oil right into my shake as well.

[deadlift0]

Im going to be starting a keto diet. I wanted to see if this set up is ok.

Pre-workout- VPX Shotgun
Intra-2 scoops of chain'd out
Post- VPX Syntesize 20 and 1 scoop of chaind out minutes later 2 scoops of Whey and 1 tbs of ANPB

Meal 1-8 oz of salmon and veggies
Meal 2-8 oz of chicken, veggies, and fish oil
Meal 3-Same as meal 2
Meal 4-Same as meal 2
Meal 5-2 scoops Whey and 1 tbs of penut/ or almond butter.

Various times BCAA's will be sipped from a gallon jug of water. How much fish oil should be taken?

Any comments and or suggestions gladly will be taken. Thanks everyone.

[Frosty]

Im going to be starting a keto diet. I wanted to see if this set up is ok.

Pre-workout- VPX Shotgun
Intra-2 scoops of chain'd out
Post- VPX Syntesize 20 and 1 scoop of chaind out minutes later 2 scoops of Whey and 1 tbs of ANPB

Meal 1-8 oz of salmon and veggies
Meal 2-8 oz of chicken, veggies, and fish oil
Meal 3-Same as meal 2
Meal 4-Same as meal 2
Meal 5-2 scoops Whey and 1 tbs of penut/ or almond butter.

Various times BCAA's will be sipped from a gallon jug of water. How much fish oil should be taken?

Any comments and or suggestions gladly will be taken. Thanks everyone.

If you prefer 5 meals that will work. Most guys do 6 but you have a good amount of protein there so it's cool.

Your fat looks too low, though. Help us help you out a little....what's your height, weight, and approx bodyfat? Can you see abs? Or do you have rolls of chub (no offense!)? The amount of fish oil I'd recommend depends on this.

[gman]

Just to let you guys know who talk about how eating a huge cheat meal is beneficial.
Because I have 2 of my last 3 cheat meals put on 7 lbs of weight, of which only 2 have come back off, Dave has limited my cheat meal as follows until further notice:

25g fat
50g carbs
unlimited lean protein.

not saying it doesn't work for everyone to eat like a starving pig at your cheat meal, but it definitely messes me up lately.

I am up to 110 min of cardio 7 days a week and eating Dave's diet for a 200lb man, and I am up 2 lbs since March 1

Not looking for pity, just telling you guys, get the fat off while you're young and keep it off, it gets damn hard at 47!

[deadlift0]

5'8 about 210 in the morning. Dont know bf but id say rolls of chub. Not necessarely fat but no abs. Carry most fat on my abdomen,love handles, and lower chest.

I meant to put 2 tbs of ANPB

[Myth]

Just to let you guys know who talk about how eating a huge cheat meal is beneficial.
Because I have 2 of my last 3 cheat meals put on 7 lbs of weight, of which only 2 have come back off, Dave has limited my cheat meal as follows until further notice:

25g fat
50g carbs
unlimited lean protein.

not saying it doesn't work for everyone to eat like a starving pig at your cheat meal, but it definitely messes me up lately.

I am up to 110 min of cardio 7 days a week and eating Dave's diet for a 200lb man, and I am up 2 lbs since March 1

Not looking for pity, just telling you guys, get the fat off while you're young and keep it off, it gets damn hard at 47!

weight means nothing; are you losing body fat? thats all that matters bro.

[gman]

No, my waist is unchanged at 38 1/2" at the navel. Dave sees my weekly pics so he can tell too.

I am not too worried, I just keep going and hope I will wake up one day suddenly down a pants size!

[Frosty]

Just to let you guys know who talk about how eating a huge cheat meal is beneficial.
Because I have 2 of my last 3 cheat meals put on 7 lbs of weight, of which only 2 have come back off, Dave has limited my cheat meal as follows until further notice:

25g fat
50g carbs
unlimited lean protein.

not saying it doesn't work for everyone to eat like a starving pig at your cheat meal, but it definitely messes me up lately.

I am up to 110 min of cardio 7 days a week and eating Dave's diet for a 200lb man, and I am up 2 lbs since March 1

Not looking for pity, just telling you guys, get the fat off while you're young and keep it off, it gets damn hard at 47!

Thank you for sharing this, gman. This just goes to show that things have to be customized to the person doing it based on *results*. Results are really all that matters, and if smaller carb meals do the trick, do what works. I find the fatter I am, the smaller my cheats are and it works. The leaner I get the bigger they get. Plus I'm only 23, so age I'm sure also plays a role.

[Frosty]

5'8 about 210 in the morning. Dont know bf but id say rolls of chub. Not necessarely fat but no abs. Carry most fat on my abdomen,love handles, and lower chest.

I meant to put 2 tbs of ANPB

Go with how you set up your meals before...just get 17g of fat per meal. You'll need to add a little additional fat to the chicken meals.

For fish oil, I'm gonna recommend some high doses here since you're not very lean and especially since you said you store a lot of fat in the love handle area (insulin sensitivity issues). If you get the concentrated fish oil, I'm going to recommend 24g. Mega EFA from www.vitacost.com (http://www.vitacost.com) and the Carlson DHA (they're 500mg DHA and 100mg EPA per cap). Take 12 of each per day however you want to get your 17g of fat per meal. If you get cheap fish oil I will recommend 40-50g.

[deadlift0]

Thanks frosty. Ill do my best to get the 17 grams. How much veggies should i be taking in so i can watch the carbs.

[deadlift0]

This is the brand I have right now

http://www.naturemade.com/ProductDatabase/prd_prod.asp?tab=Products&productid=127

[thesamewords]

Just to let you guys know who talk about how eating a huge cheat meal is beneficial.
Because I have 2 of my last 3 cheat meals put on 7 lbs of weight, of which only 2 have come back off, Dave has limited my cheat meal as follows until further notice:

25g fat
50g carbs
unlimited lean protein.

not saying it doesn't work for everyone to eat like a starving pig at your cheat meal, but it definitely messes me up lately.

I am up to 110 min of cardio 7 days a week and eating Dave's diet for a 200lb man, and I am up 2 lbs since March 1

Not looking for pity, just telling you guys, get the fat off while you're young and keep it off, it gets damn hard at 47!


weight means nothing; are you losing body fat? thats all that matters bro.
keep your proteins up while you are doing all that cardio. when I first started keto, I dropped tons of weight but I wasnt eating enough protein and I loss some muscle that I could have spared. I was doing 25 miles a week. Now I have 60 pounds lost but my body fat is nowhere were it should be. keep your keto up and dont sweat the carbs cause (if I read dave correctly) they are only to keep your thyroid normal.

[Frosty]

Thanks frosty. Ill do my best to get the 17 grams. How much veggies should i be taking in so i can watch the carbs.

If you stick to low carb veggies like broccoli and spinach for example, you don't have to worry about carbs much. A cup of these with your meals is just fine. Just no carrots, bell peppers, peas, corn, beans, water chestnuts, baby corn, and even brussels sprouts add up quickly.

[Frosty]

This is the brand I have right now

http://www.naturemade.com/ProductDatabase/prd_prod.asp?tab=Products&productid=127

40-50g a day for that potency. You'll go through it very quickly, and when you're done either buy a liquid to save money and make it easier or get the high potency capsules that I mentioned (you have to take half as much for the same amount of total EPA/DHA). I prefer the caps how I mentioned because you'll get a superior EPA : DHA ratio meaning more DHA, and DHA is the main driver at increasing insulin sensitivity. Cheaper fish oils typically are low in DHA.

[deadlift0]

Thanks for all the info frosty. im thinking of ordering some from TrueProtein.

Can i replace fish oil in some of my meals with mac oil

[The Thinker]

I posted this on Dave's thread too but I'm not sure how quickly he answers. I've read a lot on this diet and even tried it for 10 weeks before my Spring vacation. One thing I've never seen is any gear recommendations while on the diet. I'm assuming it is a simple stack based on Test with something else such as Tren or Winny. Does anyone have any insight here? Also, what dosages?

I also go Dave's video which I thought was pretty good. One thing he explained well was why the free meal was needed (e.g. to ensure the T-4 to T-3 conversion continues to occur). My question is whether or not the free meal is really needed if you are supplementing the body by taking T-3? It seems reasonable that the free meal would not serve the same purpose if you are providing the T-3 directly.

[Frosty]

Thanks for all the info frosty. im thinking of ordering some from TrueProtein.

Can i replace fish oil in some of my meals with mac oil


Replace? No. Fish oil has a totally different function from macadamia oil. THe concentrated capsules let you get in more fat from stuff like mac nuts since you use half the dose.

[deadlift0]

So when can I use mac oil. Just in my shakes?

[mjtfitness]

I think once you're very lean this is an option. However I also think it depends on your body and your level of activity. It should be experimented with. If you're getting fantastic results with one cheat meal, WHY do more? I believe in using the least amount of carbs to get the job done, and if it's getting done, adding more is not beneficial IMO.

This is best left to personal experimentation, being patient and noting the results in a methodical way. Start with one carb meal if you're lean. Add in a second and do that for 2-3 weeks. Are your results better? No? Then go back to one meal. Yes? Great, 2 meals is now what you should use. Perhaps then as you progress try 3 meals, note results over the next few weeks. Improvement? Yes? Keep it. No? Go back to 2 meals, etc. If you start slowing fat loss then you've gone too far and you should go back to what you were doing previously. This is your "sweet spot" for now.

I'm very much against going from one cheat meal and then BAM doing an entire cheat day. Too much of a jump. What if a half day is better? You don't know. There's no process involved here to really find out the best way.

There's no way to say "this is definitely the amount you should do and it works for everyone." So this type of experimenting is important in learning what works for your body.

For fat guys, I highly recommend against more than a single meal per week.
After some experimentation I have found what works best for me is a refeed segment of about 4.5 hours starting between 4-5 p.m. eating every 1.5 hrs.
Sample...
Meal 1: Bowl of white rice, baked lays with a few pieces of red licorice as a chaser.
Meal 2: Plate of Pasta with marinara sauce, turkey meat balls and of course a licorice chaser!
Meal 3: 2 lg. pancakes with syrup, handful of jelly beans.
Meal 4: Rice or Pasta and a cookie and or brownie washed down with a whey protien shake.
The next day I am bloated and up about 4.5 lbs. (scary) but within two days I am tight and seem to see a noticable improvement in bodymass.

[Frosty]

So when can I use mac oil. Just in my shakes?


Wherever you can fit it in and get 17g a meal while still taking fish oil. If that means just with shakes, then yes.

[Myth]

After some experimentation I have found what works best for me is a refeed segment of about 4.5 hours starting between 4-5 p.m. eating every 1.5 hrs.

Ponder the underlined words for a moment....;)


The next day I am bloated and up about 4.5 lbs. (scary) but within two days I am tight and seem to see a noticable improvement in bodymass.
You're scared of 4.5lbs?? I gain 6-10lbs on a typical low carb day, lol. After refeeds I gain 20lb and I never trip out:D Just experiment more to find exactly what works for you. Only then can you learn to trust your body, and thus never be worried:)

[gman]

Curious, I have been on Dave's diet for 10 weeks now, and it really got rid of my constant hunger.

For some reason, today, the hunger is back, and it is really gnawing at me. I have had 3 of my 6 meals, and feel empty inside.

Does that happen occasionally to anyone else on keto? This is about the 2nd or 3rd time in the entire 10 weeks that I have felt this way. I am talking real hunger too, like wanting to go eat an entire salad bar.

[Darnelle B]

I'm on my 3rd day of clen and want to know how should I up it. I have the 4omcg tablets I been taking 40 every day in the morning. I'm on my 4th day how should I up it? 40 in the am and 40 in the afternoon? Also I'm plan to take it 16 weeks stright

[deadlift0]

Wherever you can fit it in and get 17g a meal while still taking fish oil. If that means just with shakes, then yes.

see i kept getting confused. im just supplementing the fish oil with my meal i still need another fat source for my 17 grams correct?

[Frosty]

see i kept getting confused. im just supplementing the fish oil with my meal i still need another fat source for my 17 grams correct?


Meal totals are 17g including fish oil and all other sources.

[deadlift0]

THanks man for the info.

[Myth]

Curious, I have been on Dave's diet for 10 weeks now, and it really got rid of my constant hunger.

For some reason, today, the hunger is back, and it is really gnawing at me. I have had 3 of my 6 meals, and feel empty inside.

Does that happen occasionally to anyone else on keto? This is about the 2nd or 3rd time in the entire 10 weeks that I have felt this way. I am talking real hunger too, like wanting to go eat an entire salad bar.

The only time that happens to me is if I was more active than usual that day, or, more often than not, I was not getting all my water in. Your body might be confusing thirst with hunger.

[Myth]

I'm on my 3rd day of clen and want to know how should I up it. I have the 4omcg tablets I been taking 40 every day in the morning. I'm on my 4th day how should I up it? 40 in the am and 40 in the afternoon? Also I'm plan to take it 16 weeks stright

Cycle 2 weeks on 2 weeks off. Start at 40mcg, increasing by 40mcg every few days till you hit a max dosage of 160mcg. Example: 40 40 40 40 80 80 80 80 120 120 120 120, 160 160 160 etc etc....

Then once you start the next cycle, you can start a bit higher than 40mcg if you can tolerate it.

You can take your dose all at once in the morning or split in throughout the day however you want.

[Frosty]

Curious, I have been on Dave's diet for 10 weeks now, and it really got rid of my constant hunger.

For some reason, today, the hunger is back, and it is really gnawing at me. I have had 3 of my 6 meals, and feel empty inside.

Does that happen occasionally to anyone else on keto? This is about the 2nd or 3rd time in the entire 10 weeks that I have felt this way. I am talking real hunger too, like wanting to go eat an entire salad bar.

Did you sleep poorly or not as much as normal the night before? Or maybe a couple nights in a row? This can really cause cravings from my experience. Sleep is vital.

[gman]

that could be it, I am getting up about an hour earlier for the past few days so I have more time for the gym in the morning.

[flipper]

Can I use balsamic vinegar with my salads, thanks?

[Myth]

Can I use balsamic vinegar with my salads, thanks?

as long as its zero carbs, yes!

[Frosty]

Vinegar is good stuff. It's alkalanizing to the body but at the same time it can help digestion since it increases acidity of the stomach. I find vinegar helps satisfy hunger, too.

[Darnelle B]

do i get ALL THE BENIFECTS OF THE MAC NUT OIL IF I JUST DUMP IT IN MY SHAKE OR SHOULD I JUST DRINK OFF THE SPOON?

[Frosty]

do i get ALL THE BENIFECTS OF THE MAC NUT OIL IF I JUST DUMP IT IN MY SHAKE OR SHOULD I JUST DRINK OFF THE SPOON?


Fine either way. Although if anything, it'll digest easier if shaken up and partially emulsified in the shake.

[Frosty]

that could be it, I am getting up about an hour earlier for the past few days so I have more time for the gym in the morning.

Do whatever you have to do to get in your needed sleep and make it quality.

Cumulative sleep deprivation like that can do the following:

-Lower testosterone levels
-Reduce insulin sensitivity
-Increase stress hormones like corticosterone
-Reduce leptin (hormone that assists fat loss)
-Increase ghrelin (hormone that increases hunger)
-Reduces growth hormone
-Harms mood

Doesn't sound too good for trying to lose fat, huh?? Or gain muscle!

Make sure it's quality. The "ideal" sleep would be where you fall asleep in about 15-20 minutes (too much shorter indicates sleep deprivation), and sleep through the entire night and wake up 8 hours later before your alarm, feeling refreshed and ready to go.

How you go about doing this is a book in and of itself, but if you want to get into more details please just let me know and we can.

[gman]

It will be better in a week when tax season is over and I work normal hours, and don't have to get to the gym and do my lifting and 110 minutes of cardio all in one workout.

I will be able to split things up, get home earlier, and get up later.

Right now I get home from work at 8:30, eat supper, unwind, and go to bed at 10, get up at 4:00

[deadlift0]

Frosty have you used any of Dave's products?

[Frosty]

Frosty have you used any of Dave's products?

Yeah, Testolyze and Lipolyze. Both good products.

[mr condition]

Im doing a keto with a weekly refeed ..... i usually use oils and nuts for fat sources but just starting to use some dark chocolate nice little addition ! heres what i use

LINDT 90% dark chocolate
40 grams

4.4g protein
fat 19.6g
carbs 5.6

calories 216

[Myth]

The "ideal" sleep would be where you fall asleep in about 15-20 minutes (too much shorter indicates sleep deprivation), and sleep through the entire night and wake up 8 hours later before your alarm, feeling refreshed and ready to go.

I wish I could experience this phenomenon people call "continuous sleep!" LOL

But I would rather be hydrated and wake up 2-3 times to piss (and fall right back asleep), than be DEhydrated and sleep continuously;)

[Myth]

Im doing a keto with a weekly refeed ..... i usually use oils and nuts for fat sources but just starting to use some dark chocolate nice little addition ! heres what i use

LINDT 90% dark chocolate
40 grams

4.4g protein
fat 19.6g
carbs 5.6

calories 216

thats for your cheat meal? if not, thats way too many carbs for a keto diet

[Frosty]

I wish I could experience this phenomenon people call "continuous sleep!" LOL

But I would rather be hydrated and wake up 2-3 times to piss (and fall right back asleep), than be DEhydrated and sleep continuously;)

I disagree with that. I don't see a need to drink so much that you have to piss so many times a night. Even if you get in some salt with your water before bed it'll help you retain it instead of pissing so much. I think sleep is vital and being less hydrated at night isn't as important as the benefits of good sleep.

Since I've been drinking less right before bed I sleep better and feel better. I'm sure in the long run the hormonal benefits will outweigh any possible negatives to not being super hydrated during sleep. I think the body knows what to do during 8 hours of sleep. Getting up that many times is going to reduce the hormonal benefits of sleep.

[mr condition]

thats for your cheat meal? if not, thats way too many carbs for a keto diet

to many carbs ? no way i still end up under 40g carbs a day !

[gman]

My TRT that I just started is causing me some wicked dreams, so I have been waking up 4-5 times a night in the middle of vivid dreams. I fall back to sleep right away, but I am sure it isn't helping much.

[Frosty]

I think I remember reading that you only need 28g a day of cocoa for benefits, meaning the kind with fat. Cocoa powder would be a nice option since it would still give you benefits without all the saturated fat. Just don't take it with whey or any dairy. Used this way I think it's a very healthy addition to the diet.

[Frosty]

My TRT that I just started is causing me some wicked dreams, so I have been waking up 4-5 times a night in the middle of vivid dreams. I fall back to sleep right away, but I am sure it isn't helping much.

Hey man what's TRT?

[mr condition]

so how many carbs for u is to much ? i dont think that amount will affect ketosis in the slightest

[Frosty]

so how many carbs for u is to much ? i dont think that amount will affect ketosis in the slightest

2 tbsp of cocoa powder is like 2.5g of net carbs. Definitely not too much.

[mr condition]

i try to keep carbs under 6g of carbs per meal from indirect sources ie nuts ...dark chocolate etc

[mr condition]

For the guys who do big refeeds how do u find your condition comes in i find the first 3 or 4 meals vascularity is great look dry then as i progress later in the day i get slightly watery around the waist i found the best i looked so far was starting a refeed on the last to meals in the evening and 3 meals in the next day then by the end of the day i get slightly watery again although within a day or 2 i dry out again

[gman]

Hey man what's TRT?

test replacement therapy. I had test levels pretty low, so am doing a fairly low dose shot once a week, along with HCG.

[Frosty]

For the guys who do big refeeds how do u find your condition comes in i find the first 3 or 4 meals vascularity is great look dry then as i progress later in the day i get slightly watery around the waist i found the best i looked so far was starting a refeed on the last to meals in the evening and 3 meals in the next day then by the end of the day i get slightly watery again although within a day or 2 i dry out again

I like refeeds like Skiploading...you'll get a bit blurry from the load but when you go back to your normal low carbs you'll lose the water and dry out...especially if tan during that time, too. Meaning don't expect to be very full and very dry during a load....shoot for looking good days later. It's a methodical method....and the Skiploading reminds me a good bit about Mauro Di Pasquale's method. You experiment with it for essentially the whole diet, so you find out what loading foods/method works best and exactly how long from them you peak. So if you realize that certain foods work best and you look your best in the morning 3 days later, you know that's when you would peak and there's no guessing. Methodical experimentation instead of guess work.

[mr condition]

iv read that glutamine can enhance glycogen storage u think theres any truth in this ?

[Frosty]

iv read that glutamine can enhance glycogen storage u think theres any truth in this ?


Yes, when carbs are low or zero. If you have plenty of carbs PWO it's pointless and a waste of money to use glutamine for this purpose.

Glutamine easily converts to glucose so your body can turn it into glucose and then glycogen.

If you're doing low volume and low reps on keto, not much point in using glutamine, IMO, because those workouts use little glycogen. If you train with a bit more volume and reps, then yes, I think it's useful for keto PWO.

[HANEYCOLEMAN]

Does anyone get major headacje even a migrane and feeling lethargy on their first and second day starting ketosis? is this normal until ketosis? is their any reason to think that some folks take a week to get into ketosis?

[deadlift0]

i feel like that today

[ANADROLicfreak]

i have been on daves keto diet for a little over two weeks now.i started at 310lbs.this morning i weighed 290lbs.i have been following the one right off his thread.i was wondering if it was okay to add maybe some more fats.i add a extra shake before cardio in the morning.my lean body mass is 260lbs.im trying to get ready to start competing again.thanks for any input.

[Frosty]

i have been on daves keto diet for a little over two weeks now.i started at 310lbs.this morning i weighed 290lbs.i have been following the one right off his thread.i was wondering if it was okay to add maybe some more fats.i add a extra shake before cardio in the morning.my lean body mass is 260lbs.im trying to get ready to start competing again.thanks for any input.

You have a competition weight of around 270?? How tall are you?

[ANADROLicfreak]

6'3

[Frosty]

So you're doing 7 meals a day including that morning shake? And you're getting 120g total fat? And I'm guessing 350 or so g of protein?

[ANADROLicfreak]

ya i think so

[ANADROLicfreak]

ya the diet is working very well.i just was concerned about losing muscle also.i know alot of it that you just are not as big as you thought

[Frosty]

If you did that extra shake and 20g of fat with it I think you'd be good. The rest of the other meals the same 50g pro 20g fat. Or you could do 6 bigger meals. If you have any "assistance" I wouldn't be so concerned about muscle loss, but that's none of my business.

[ANADROLicfreak]

well i have been told not to use gear when your bodyfat is too high.

[ANADROLicfreak]

or else i would be on

[Frosty]

Haha okay. You should be fine by upping the protein and fat since you're a big dude. I'd go for 360-400g protein and 140-150g fat. Stick with that see how your results are.

[ANADROLicfreak]

would test and tren help?i do have clen and t3 coming to

[ANADROLicfreak]

sorry i know this is the wrong section.

[Frosty]

Sorry man I won't give out advice on AAS because I don't know shit about them. Clen I've used and have some experience with, but I've never used T3 so I can't answer about that.

[ANADROLicfreak]

well thanks.i will add in that shake plus 20fat and see how that does.

[Frosty]

One thing I like that will reduce chances of muscle loss even when dieting hard, plus giving better workouts and less soreness, is taking BCAAs right before your workout. For you I'd say 30-40g of 4:1:1 ratio BCAAs and 7g of creatine if you want. Just a thought.

[ANADROLicfreak]

ya i have some leucine.i take it a couple of times a day

[TUFF]

i have been on keto for over a month. yesterday was my 3rd cheat. the first two cheats i gained 7-8 lbs. it was quality cheat food also. potatoes, etc. last night i had pasta and salad, 3 brownies, and a big bowl of ice cream. i am not up a single lb. just thought it was weird and wondered what the difference was.

[Frosty]

Damn you guys like to fuck with yourselves mentally or what? Why is everyone always weighing themselves right after a cheat meal??? I weigh myself once a week....the day of the cheat BEFORE I cheat. If I weigh less, progress has been made. I don't care if I gained 20 lbs from the cheat!

Not sure what the difference is, Tuff. You're definitely adapting stronger to the diet after this time period...maybe that....or maybe just your choice in foods. Hell eating something you're slightly allergic or sensitive to can bloat you up for a week.

[gman]

Lucky bastards! lol

[sizeon]

if you were doing a 1 day a week carb up on a CKD, are the people who have had succes with using humalog pwo on the carb up day for a little exrta muscle gain and can still drop BF

[deadlift0]

how will i know when im in ketosis

[Myth]

how will i know when im in ketosis
no mood swings, no cravings, feeling of constant satiety, stable energy levels (due to stable blood glucose levels). being "in ketosis" doesnt really matter though, because as long as you're in a deficit, thats all that matters in the end as far as fat loss:)

[Myth]

if you were doing a 1 day a week carb up on a CKD, are the people who have had succes with using humalog pwo on the carb up day for a little exrta muscle gain and can still drop BF
can you please re-phrase that sentence?

[deadlift0]

My energy levels are going up and down the past few days

[eattrainsleep]

Frosty and/or Myth

Ive been doing a keto diet for 10 weeks now, and just recently I switched some PB out for Mac Oil.

Is it possible that I was never actually in Ketosis because of the trace carbs from the PB? Its all natural with 4g carbs 1g sugar per serving? I would have 2-3 servings a day and now only 1.

The reason I'm asking is because during my workouts this week I have been getting horrible migraine headaches and it all starting after I switched?

Any thoughts are appreciated, Thanks

Josh

[sizeon]

can you please re-phrase that sentence?
i see i was in a rush, during a CKD can using humalog pwo on your 1x a week carb up be benificial for more muscle growht while still droping BF

[v1hyp]

?????????

[Frosty]

i see i was in a rush, during a CKD can using humalog pwo on your 1x a week carb up be benificial for more muscle growht while still droping BF

I wouldn't bother.

[Frosty]

Frosty and/or Myth

Ive been doing a keto diet for 10 weeks now, and just recently I switched some PB out for Mac Oil.

Is it possible that I was never actually in Ketosis because of the trace carbs from the PB? Its all natural with 4g carbs 1g sugar per serving? I would have 2-3 servings a day and now only 1.

The reason I'm asking is because during my workouts this week I have been getting horrible migraine headaches and it all starting after I switched?

Any thoughts are appreciated, Thanks

Josh

I suppose it's possible if your overall trace carbs added up too high from the rest of your diet.

[indianamonster1986]

Just wanted to add Keto is the SHIT!!! Just got done with my diet (pics in my thread) and I was in the shape of my life and about the best conditioned athlete in the show!!! Keto Bulk starts next week!!!

[deadlift0]

Frosty i sawe you mention skip-loading earlier would you recomend that or just stick with one cheat meal a week

[Myth]

Frosty i sawe you mention skip-loading earlier would you recomend that or just stick with one cheat meal a week
frosty's first post on this thread was a brilliant one regarding refeeds

[Myth]

Frosty and/or Myth

Ive been doing a keto diet for 10 weeks now, and just recently I switched some PB out for Mac Oil.

Is it possible that I was never actually in Ketosis because of the trace carbs from the PB? Its all natural with 4g carbs 1g sugar per serving? I would have 2-3 servings a day and now only 1.

The reason I'm asking is because during my workouts this week I have been getting horrible migraine headaches and it all starting after I switched?

Any thoughts are appreciated, Thanks

Josh

i stayed in ketosis at 50g carbs a day

[Frosty]

Frosty i sawe you mention skip-loading earlier would you recomend that or just stick with one cheat meal a week


Just the one cheat meal works well and is well proven. Skiploading also works.

However, in my opinion, with guys higher in bodyfat they should stay away from Skiploading until they lean out if they want to try it. If I didn't have abs I wouldn't even think of it, meaning unless I'm 9-10% I wouldn't try it knowing how my body is.

Simple reason is the fatter you are, the worse your insulin sensitivity and blood sugar management. The leaner you are, the better. Loading with a ton of sugary carbs can be fine for the leaner guys that handle carbs better, but for the fatter guys it can hinder results because they don't handle it.

It also has to do with training volume and the rep ranges. A guy that does 5x5 once a week is waaaay different from a guy doing 400-500 reps in a workout or something that participates in something like road biking for sport. Simply the 5x5 type lifting requires little carbs to fuel, while sets of 20-50 reps require a lot more if sets are high, and endurance biking for example requires a lot more to properly fuel workouts.

[deadlift0]

So what should the cheat meal be?

[Frosty]

So what should the cheat meal be?

Whatever you want, but I like to have a few rules:

1. No trans fats
2. Avoid high fructose corn syrup
3. Avoid any allergens
4. Don't gorge

Otherwise I just eat whatever sounds good to me at the time. I might hit up the grocery store and browse and pick up whatever sounds good, or if I hit a buffet just put on my plate what looks good. Chocolate almost always ends up in my cheat meal :D

[deadlift0]

So give me your example cheat meal plus the choclate lol. Looking good in your avi by the way bro

[Frosty]

So give me your example cheat meal plus the choclate lol. Looking good in your avi by the way bro

I'll tell you my last two cheats:

Cheat 1:
-rack of ribs
-probably 12 oz mongolian BBQ pork
-about 8-10 oz fajita style beef plus guacamole, onions and peppers, sour cream, and cheese
-couple big scoops mashed potatoes
-couple big scoops spanish rice
-couple big scoops chicken fried rice
-couple scoops chow mein
-6 bread sticks
-5 macaroons
-2 chocolate almond bars
-1 chocolate eclair

Cheat 2:
-2 double whoppers
-12 oz bag of mixed Hershey chocolates
-1 brownie
-5 peppermint patties
-6 strawberry eclair ice cream bars
-Handful of macadamia nuts

[tribal]

on a keto diet can i use crystal light, and balsamic vinegar?

[Frosty]

on a keto diet can i use crystal light, and balsamic vinegar?


Vinegar is fine. You can use as much as you want.

Crystal light contains some carbs. Use moderation and don't drink a ton.

[radrmd216]

Myth, do you deplete your glycogen stores at the beginning of your refeed days? Also, do you do low intensity cardio first thing in the morning after a refeed or do you do high intensity cardio after your first meal?

[Myth]

myth, do you deplete your glycogen stores at the beginning of your refeed days? Also, do you do low intensity cardio first thing in the morning after a refeed or do you do high intensity cardio after your first meal?
i do no cardio or weights on refeed day. I train 6 days in a row, and by the time i'm done with those days, i am very depleted. Check my blog for my training routine.

[BLUEBARON75]

what do you think of the keto mass building diet? i'm on it right now and i feel great, on the other hand. i've only been on it for about a week. what makes the keto diet the key for gaining lean muscle?

[Frosty]

what makes the keto diet the key for gaining lean muscle?

Here's a few reasons:

1. Majority of people aren't "carb types" that thrive on carbs like, say, Milos Sarcev is. Poliquin loves to use him as an example because he's a freak that can eat a ton of carbs and not have wacky blood sugar levels or get fat. Eating less carbs for MOST guys (say 3 out of 4) helps keep you lean.

2. Because of number 1, most guys need more protein, and low carb gaining approaches supply more protein. Higher protein does nice things like increase IGF-1, stimulate protein synthesis...

3. You get more fats which supports higher normal testosterone levels, which again helps support gains. You can also eat more things like egg yolks which supply good stuff like cholesterol (for hormones) and arachidonic acid for stimulating gains.

4. For guys that insist on gaining when they're not lean, low carb gaining is the only way, in my opinion. They don't handle carbs well so this would help these guys gain without getting obese.

5. Timed carb loads help maximize the anabolic effect of insulin and other anabolic hormones.

6. Taking in carbs PWO, if you train with sufficient volume and reps, times carbs for the optimal time to take them--when your body is most receptive to insulin and glucose uptake. Very important for us non "carb types."

7. If you're truly a "fat type" metabolism, then you'll feel better on this diet. You'll have more stable blood sugar levels, you'll be more alert and have better brain function, which helps you get in better workouts and get stronger. If you feel better on this diet, listen to what your body is telling you! When you're functioning better overall, your body is more likely to be making gains in mass and strength.

8. Carb diets for the "fat types" generally adds too much body fat per lb of muscle gained. This is disastrous if you keep gaining fat and letting yourself get chunky. Why? Because your body isn't listening to insulin...your muscles are becoming deaf to it and it isn't doing the anabolic job on muscle tissue like it's supposed to. It's hypertrophying your fat cells. This also leads to chronic inflammation which hinders gains. It leads to higher estrogen. Who wants that? Stay lean...eat less carbs when gaining. Insulin will do the anabolic job on MUSCLE when you're lean.


I'm sure there's more but I can't think of it right now. For you real "carb types" out there....ignore this and eat your carbs. And get out of here you lucky bastards! :)

[mr condition]

regarding refeeds does anyone increase frequency iv read lyles flexible dieting he suggest the leaner u get and the harder your dieting the more refeeds are needed to keep things moving anyone try more than once a week ?

[Frosty]

regarding refeeds does anyone increase frequency iv read lyles flexible dieting he suggest the leaner u get and the harder your dieting the more refeeds are needed to keep things moving anyone try more than once a week ?


Yes I've read a good bit about this. Here's my opinion on it.

Mauro Di Pasquale, one of the best low carb gurus out there, does include with his diets the option of more frequent refeeds. He has mentioned doing twice a week with experimentation if it's needed. Vince Gironda, the original iron guru, used to use a carb meal once every 3 days. Charles Poliquin, who worked with Di Pasquale to develop his diet he uses for low carb types, uses a carb refeed every 5-7 days. Poliquin's I like because he bases it off of body fat percentage.

For example, guys over 10% he recommends one MEAL once every 5-7 days (pref 7 days for fatter guys). As they get leaner he will increase the number of meals going once every 5 days. Starting with one meal, moving to two when you're around 8%, and going all the way to a whole day every 5th day when you're 6%. Experimenting along the way and noting results is important to find what works and gets results for you.

But yes, I do believe the leaner you are the more carbs you use. If you are 6 or so percent BF, and you add in higher volume with rep ranges in 10-20 reps, you can use PWO carbs and this will help keep you looking full and bigger while on low carbs. Increased reps and training volume is a requirement for this, though, because how sensitive you are to carbs is a function of training volume and rep ranges. 5x5 or 10x3 simply doesn't require much of any carbs to fuel (why it's great for guys doing 1 cheat a week and now PWO carbs).

[tribal]

vinegar is ok but is balsamic????

[mr condition]

Yes I've read a good bit about this. Here's my opinion on it.

Mauro Di Pasquale, one of the best low carb gurus out there, does include with his diets the option of more frequent refeeds. He has mentioned doing twice a week with experimentation if it's needed. Vince Gironda, the original iron guru, used to use a carb meal once every 3 days. Charles Poliquin, who worked with Di Pasquale to develop his diet he uses for low carb types, uses a carb refeed every 5-7 days. Poliquin's I like because he bases it off of body fat percentage.

For example, guys over 10% he recommends one MEAL once every 5-7 days (pref 7 days for fatter guys). As they get leaner he will increase the number of meals going once every 5 days. Starting with one meal, moving to two when you're around 8%, and going all the way to a whole day every 5th day when you're 6%. Experimenting along the way and noting results is important to find what works and gets results for you.

But yes, I do believe the leaner you are the more carbs you use. If you are 6 or so percent BF, and you add in higher volume with rep ranges in 10-20 reps, you can use PWO carbs and this will help keep you looking full and bigger while on low carbs. Increased reps and training volume is a requirement for this, though, because how sensitive you are to carbs is a function of training volume and rep ranges. 5x5 or 10x3 simply doesn't require much of any carbs to fuel (why it's great for guys doing 1 cheat a week and now PWO carbs).

Great answer thanks frosty something i might experiment with for sure !

[Frosty]

vinegar is ok but is balsamic????

If it has no carbs it's fine.

[tribal]

Here's a few reasons:

1. Majority of people aren't "carb types" that thrive on carbs like, say, Milos Sarcev is. Poliquin loves to use him as an example because he's a freak that can eat a ton of carbs and not have wacky blood sugar levels or get fat. Eating less carbs for MOST guys (say 3 out of 4) helps keep you lean.

2. Because of number 1, most guys need more protein, and low carb gaining approaches supply more protein. Higher protein does nice things like increase IGF-1, stimulate protein synthesis...

3. You get more fats which supports higher normal testosterone levels, which again helps support gains. You can also eat more things like egg yolks which supply good stuff like cholesterol (for hormones) and arachidonic acid for stimulating gains.

4. For guys that insist on gaining when they're not lean, low carb gaining is the only way, in my opinion. They don't handle carbs well so this would help these guys gain without getting obese.

5. Timed carb loads help maximize the anabolic effect of insulin and other anabolic hormones.

6. Taking in carbs PWO, if you train with sufficient volume and reps, times carbs for the optimal time to take them--when your body is most receptive to insulin and glucose uptake. Very important for us non "carb types."

7. If you're truly a "fat type" metabolism, then you'll feel better on this diet. You'll have more stable blood sugar levels, you'll be more alert and have better brain function, which helps you get in better workouts and get stronger. If you feel better on this diet, listen to what your body is telling you! When you're functioning better overall, your body is more likely to be making gains in mass and strength.

8. Carb diets for the "fat types" generally adds too much body fat per lb of muscle gained. This is disastrous if you keep gaining fat and letting yourself get chunky. Why? Because your body isn't listening to insulin...your muscles are becoming deaf to it and it isn't doing the anabolic job on muscle tissue like it's supposed to. It's hypertrophying your fat cells. This also leads to chronic inflammation which hinders gains. It leads to higher estrogen. Who wants that? Stay lean...eat less carbs when gaining. Insulin will do the anabolic job on MUSCLE when you're lean.


I'm sure there's more but I can't think of it right now. For you real "carb types" out there....ignore this and eat your carbs. And get out of here you lucky bastards! :)
do you eat carbs? if so how many per day? if not dieting of course

[Frosty]

do you eat carbs? if so how many per day? if not dieting of course

Whatever trace carbs I'd get in veggies, nuts, spices, etc. Carbs when gaining are strictly PWO if sufficient volume/reps are used, and carb loads every 5-7 days and quantity of carbs for this depends on how lean.

[bgoo101]

how are you expected to grow to your full potential on just PWO carbs? i understand you are trying to stay lean but.. if you want to take full advantage of gains wouldnt you cycle carbs ?

[Frosty]

how are you expected to grow to your full potential on just PWO carbs? i understand you are trying to stay lean but.. if you want to take full advantage of gains wouldnt you cycle carbs ?

It's not just PWO carbs. You have carb refeeds on a 5-7 day frequency.

[bgoo101]

understood tho ive been told different..

High days (250grams), low days (150grams ) and re-feed every 5-7 days ! so cycle with a re-feed to gain mass and not put on unwanted amouts off fat...expected a lil while gaining of course...

[Frosty]

For fat-type metabolisms that too many carbs even on low carb days. The whole idea is that for these guys, they function better on low carbs. Their body is such that it works better with lower carbs.

For carb guys maybe looking to avoid fat gain they can try that method. But IMO, for non carb guys it's too many carbs.

[tribal]

Whatever trace carbs I'd get in veggies, nuts, spices, etc. Carbs when gaining are strictly PWO if sufficient volume/reps are used, and carb loads every 5-7 days and quantity of carbs for this depends on how lean.
how much volume are you talkin? and is this "DRUG ASSISTED"(40 sets volume workout) type volume or are ya natural? how many pwo? just a shake of dextro or a shake an meal(w/carbs)? i cant do carbs at all..all endo slow metab here so i can barely have any..and if i have em consistent, meaning on consecutive days fuckin forget it, im bloated as fuck, regardless of how much i take in wether its 100g or 400g

[bgoo101]

For fat-type metabolisms that too many carbs even on low carb days. The whole idea is that for these guys, they function better on low carbs. Their body is such that it works better with lower carbs.

For carb guys maybe looking to avoid fat gain they can try that method. But IMO, for non carb guys it's too many carbs.


how is someone trying to get there max gains as possible in off-season on 100g carbs a day expected to get the most of there potential.... i get watery and im not lean by nature. i always diet down before off-season.... but it comes to mind when PWO carbs only in off-season is not going to help max out gains... yes you will gain but 1st meal upon rising i would suggest carbs in gaining phase...

[Frosty]

how is someone trying to get there max gains as possible in off-season on 100g carbs a day expected to get the most of there potential.... i get watery and im not lean by nature. i always diet down before off-season.... but it comes to mind when PWO carbs only in off-season is not going to help max out gains... yes you will gain but 1st meal upon rising i would suggest carbs in gaining phase...


Why? Gaining or cutting it doesn't matter. The diet is very similar. You find what makes your body function best. If your body functions best on low carbs, a breakfast with carbs is a terrible idea. Your body doesn't function well on it...why would you make the meal that most influences the rest of the day one that your body doesn't handle well? Protein and fat for breakfast for fat type guys.

The reason guys with this metabolism would maximize their gains is because their body functions BEST on low carbs. Insulin is used PWO when the body is really sensitive and will help stimulate protein synthesis, and on refeed periods. This uses insulin in an anabolic way this type of metabolism can handle. Doing more is detrimental because the body doesn't handle it well and it starts to cause problems on the cellular level. Do you want to decrease insulin sensitivity to muscle tissue? How will insulin be anabolic to muscle tissue if it starts becoming deaf to the signal? Fat cells will start to listen to the higher levels of insulin now...along with higher estrogen and inflammation.

Calories are most important for gains. Just eat more protein and fat. Lots of protein and plenty of fat is the right type of signal for growth for low carb guys.

[Frosty]

how much volume are you talkin? and is this "DRUG ASSISTED"(40 sets volume workout) type volume or are ya natural? how many pwo? just a shake of dextro or a shake an meal(w/carbs)? i cant do carbs at all..all endo slow metab here so i can barely have any..and if i have em consistent, meaning on consecutive days fuckin forget it, im bloated as fuck, regardless of how much i take in wether its 100g or 400g

Carb PWO based on LBM and reps, assuming you're under 10% (clear abs):

12-72 reps per workout: 0.6 g/Kg/LBM
73-200 reps per workout: 0.8 g/kg/LBM
200-360 reps per workout: 1.0 g/kg/LBM
360-450 reps per workout: 1.2 g/kg/LBM

I don't use AAS. Malto/dex is fine. Vitargo is better if you can afford it. Getting accustomed to higher volume isn't a function of drug use...it's a function of eating right, resting properly, and gradually increasing training volume over time. People get lazy and never progress because they are convinced they'll overtrain if they do more than 5x5 once a week or some bullshit. Hypertrophy is time under tension on a muscle times load. If you can do a lot more sets with a given load, don't you think you'll be able to get bigger than using less sets? Higher training volume isn't something you're either genetically blessed for or achieved through drug use....it's about making your body adapt over time given the right diet and sleep/recovery.

[tribal]

Carb PWO based on LBM and reps, assuming you're under 10% (clear abs):

12-72 reps per workout: 0.6 g/Kg/LBM
73-200 reps per workout: 0.8 g/kg/LBM
200-360 reps per workout: 1.0 g/kg/LBM
360-450 reps per workout: 1.2 g/kg/LBM

I don't use AAS. Malto/dex is fine. Vitargo is better if you can afford it. Getting accustomed to higher volume isn't a function of drug use...it's a function of eating right, resting properly, and gradually increasing training volume over time. People get lazy and never progress because they are convinced they'll overtrain if they do more than 5x5 once a week or some bullshit. Hypertrophy is time under tension on a muscle times load. If you can do a lot more sets with a given load, don't you think you'll be able to get bigger than using less sets? Higher training volume isn't something you're either genetically blessed for or achieved through drug use....it's about making your body adapt over time given the right diet and sleep/recovery.
the reason i never went that high is cause after 15 reps, joint problems? or so ive heard, an since i already have elbow tendonitis, i just figured i would exacerbate that problem...when i say drug assisted volume i meant a lee preist workout with 2 hours on biceps:rolleyes:

[Frosty]

the reason i never went that high is cause after 15 reps, joint problems? or so ive heard, an since i already have elbow tendonitis, i just figured i would exacerbate that problem...when i say drug assisted volume i meant a lee preist workout with 2 hours on biceps:rolleyes:

You don't have to go over 15 reps. If you only did many sets of 10 reps and doing enough sets that's sufficient volume in a rep range that is using glycogen more.

Dunno about the joint problems. Sounds dubious. You have to use a much lighter load to go over 15 reps and that's EASIER on the joints.

Problems with joints can come from different things, such as....

1. Too many omega-6s and not enough fish oil and other omega-3s
2. Lifting too heavy and too much volume for your current conditioning
3. Using exercises that don't place any more work on the muscles but they do the joints, for example close grip bench press with very narrow grip like 6-8" (just use 14" or so...works the triceps just fine without trashing your wrists and elbows)
4. Uncorrected tightness in certain muscles which can cause shoulder problems (tight internal rotators for example), knee problems (tight IT band), or back problems (tight hip flexors, hamstrings, adductors, even calves).
5. Lack of structural balance. If you can bench 315 and can't do chinups you got problems. If you bench 315 and can't OH press strictly 155 you're asking for shoulder problems. If your quads are way stronger than your hammies, you're asking for problems.
6. Jogging for cardio
7. Doing stupid shit. Pull downs or even pullups behind the head, dumbbell cleans, letting your hips come up first when squatting, benching with more weight than you have business handling and doing it with partial reps or bouncing, relaxing in the bottom position of squats....you get the idea.
8. Did I mention diet? If you eat like shit your joints will take a beating.
9. Lack of sleep and proper recovery.

[tribal]

You don't have to go over 15 reps. If you only did many sets of 10 reps and doing enough sets that's sufficient volume in a rep range that is using glycogen more.

Dunno about the joint problems. Sounds dubious. You have to use a much lighter load to go over 15 reps and that's EASIER on the joints.

Problems with joints can come from different things, such as....

1. Too many omega-6s and not enough fish oil and other omega-3s
2. Lifting too heavy and too much volume for your current conditioning
3. Using exercises that don't place any more work on the muscles but they do the joints, for example close grip bench press with very narrow grip like 6-8" (just use 14" or so...works the triceps just fine without trashing your wrists and elbows)
4. Uncorrected tightness in certain muscles which can cause shoulder problems (tight internal rotators for example), knee problems (tight IT band), or back problems (tight hip flexors, hamstrings, adductors, even calves).
5. Lack of structural balance. If you can bench 315 and can't do chinups you got problems. If you bench 315 and can't OH press strictly 155 you're asking for shoulder problems. If your quads are way stronger than your hammies, you're asking for problems.
6. Jogging for cardio
7. Doing stupid shit. Pull downs or even pullups behind the head, dumbbell cleans, letting your hips come up first when squatting, benching with more weight than you have business handling and doing it with partial reps or bouncing, relaxing in the bottom position of squats....you get the idea.
8. Did I mention diet? If you eat like shit your joints will take a beating.
9. Lack of sleep and proper recovery.
wow thanks!!! alot of great info tdy, a very productive easter lol! i have no clue if its tedonitis im just guessing...if i make a double bicep pose and flex my biceps as hard as i can, and then slowly lower my forearms to form a cross(or like the letter T) my elbow will make a dull pop/snap sound as well as my bicep..i have pain from niether but its very odd...and then if i contiue with force in that possition(basically when my forearm and upper arm are still str8 and continue in the lowering motion) my elbow makes a very distinct cracking sound which is different from the sound it makes when i was lowering the arm in the first description...no pain on this one either...the oddest thing is theres no cracking popping or snapping during my workout

[bgoo101]

Why? Gaining or cutting it doesn't matter. The diet is very similar. You find what makes your body function best. If your body functions best on low carbs, a breakfast with carbs is a terrible idea. Your body doesn't function well on it...why would you make the meal that most influences the rest of the day one that your body doesn't handle well? Protein and fat for breakfast for fat type guys.

The reason guys with this metabolism would maximize their gains is because their body functions BEST on low carbs. Insulin is used PWO when the body is really sensitive and will help stimulate protein synthesis, and on refeed periods. This uses insulin in an anabolic way this type of metabolism can handle. Doing more is detrimental because the body doesn't handle it well and it starts to cause problems on the cellular level. Do you want to decrease insulin sensitivity to muscle tissue? How will insulin be anabolic to muscle tissue if it starts becoming deaf to the signal? Fat cells will start to listen to the higher levels of insulin now...along with higher estrogen and inflammation.

Calories are most important for gains. Just eat more protein and fat. Lots of protein and plenty of fat is the right type of signal for growth for low carb guys.


thanks for answer i understand where yout coming from a low carb , fat type guys .... you see im in between ... i can loose fat quite easy on keto if im totally committed to the diet and cardio.. i gain muscle quite easy when diet and training is sound with aas. but too many carbs i stay strong but spill over...

[Frosty]

thanks for answer i understand where yout coming from a low carb , fat type guys .... you see im in between ... i can loose fat quite easy on keto if im totally committed to the diet and cardio.. i gain muscle quite easy when diet and training is sound with aas. but too many carbs i stay strong but spill over...

Yeah man it's about what works. There is not just a "fat type" and a "carb type" and nothing in between. That's what Mauro Di Pasquale's Metabolic Diet is about...finding the minimum amount of carbs to function optimally and prevent excess fat gain. Just a lot of guys, especially if they were fat and haven't stayed at 8% for a year or two, gain fat easily with carbs and a low carb approach is good for them.

Even if you are a carb type, it's still good to practice carb timing.

[thesamewords]

Daaaammm Frosty! I just read your cheat meal "list".... let me tell ya bro I eat BBQ pork everyday from trader joes so I cant cheat with it, but we got a nice rib joint called the Bear Pit and that is cheat central. if you come down. check it out. I still cant bring myself to eat candy on a cheat, id rather have a brewski....

[deadlift0]

As my diet progresses and i loose more and more fat what changes will have to be made if any Frosty?

[Frosty]

As my diet progresses and i loose more and more fat what changes will have to be made if any Frosty?

Only change when what you're doing is no longer working well.

First step is always to increase exercise, meaning low intensity cardio. It's better to lose fat through more exercise than to eat less. Once that stops working and you reach your limit on cardio, there are other options but I don't want to discuss those for various reasons. You can always hit me up on here or PM once that happens. I don't want to throw out ideas that people (not you) will undoubtedly use too early because people can't be patient :)

[ANADROLicfreak]

hey guys what veggies are good for protein veggie days only?

[Frosty]

hey guys what veggies are good for protein veggie days only?

Excellent choices:
-Broccoli
-Spinach
-Cauliflower
-Cabbage
-Kale, collards, turnip greens, chard, or any green leafy thing you can find

Decent choices:
-Green beans

As a general rule, root vegetables are a no no (think carrots, beets, rhutabega, turnips, radish, water chestnuts, etc). Peas and corn are no nos.

[Myth]

hey guys what veggies are good for protein veggie days only?

All the veggies Frosty listed are great, but please don't tell me someone of your size is implementing pro/veg days!?!? I strongly disagree with them, and believe they should only be used for females or tiny males. Everyone else should NEVER need them if their program is sound, especially diet.

[ANADROLicfreak]

All the veggies Frosty listed are great, but please don't tell me someone of your size is implementing pro/veg days!?!? I strongly disagree with them, and believe they should only be used for females or tiny males. Everyone else should NEVER need them if their program is sound, especially diet.
i thought maybe it would jack up my fat loss.i will leave them out i guess.thanks guys.

[Myth]

i thought maybe it would jack up my fat loss.i will leave them out i guess.thanks guys.

it would jack up your fat loss at the same rate as muscle loss

[Frosty]

i thought maybe it would jack up my fat loss.i will leave them out i guess.thanks guys.

Get a 3x5 index card and write in big fat black letters "PATIENCE" and tape it to any mirror you look at yourself in at home. That's what I do :) Reminds you when you most need it of what's REALLY needed.

[ANADROLicfreak]

it would jack up your fat loss at the same rate as muscle loss
lose muscle even if assisted?

[Frosty]

lose muscle even if assisted?

Doubt it if training right.

BUT, with that said, I still agree with Myth that you should hold back and be patient. Leave room to move. If you start out soon with 2 hours of cardio and pro/veg days, where can you go if you stop losing?? I mean I can only think of starting all kinds of drugs. Leave room to increase cardio FIRST, then when you reach a max and if you stall, THEN you can play with diet. Playing with diet is last choice since you'll look better if you can get lean eating more food and exercising more.

[thepump]

The reason I ask is I deal with cravings and headaches until I'm in ketosis so I'm trying to minimize them. The faster I'm in ketosis, the longer I feel good.

I also work with dave, so do my two best friends. They swear the same things. Works well to the T.:bowdown:

[ANADROLicfreak]

thanks frosty.you guys give very good advice.i will just stick with it.i love my peanut butter anyways lol.

[Frosty]

thanks frosty.you guys give very good advice.i will just stick with it.i love my peanut butter anyways lol.


Yeah man, Myth and I will both attest to how difficult pro/veg is for any length of time. It sucks. Plus you tend to end up with a very thin starved look if you do it long.

Another reason to leave room is that people lose fat differently. Some people can stick to the same diet and cardio and lose fat the entire time and get ripped. I believe Legend is a guy like this. Other guys need to make changes as they get leaner and leaner to keep making good progress. You need to see what your body is like and if you're the kind that does or does not need change.

[Frosty]

Here's a pic of me on low fat, low carb after a while.... sure I got lean but damn look how thin I look. Adding back in carbs and training volume I'd put on 15 lbs of "muscle"!!

[ANADROLicfreak]

i ordered daves new video off his website.so hopefully if i learn enough i can be giving advice.i just know the diet works for sure.has anyone seen it?

[ANADROLicfreak]

Here's a pic of me on low fat, low carb after a while.... sure I got lean but damn look how thin I look. Adding back in carbs and training volume I'd put on 15 lbs of "muscle"!!
damn man do you compete?if you do which organization?

[Frosty]

Hey real quick here's a tool I put together for when guys what to bulk on a keto style diet for PWO carbs. Also good for guys under 10% (again clear six pack) that want to train with more volume to keep full while doing keto:

Z=(0.5307+0.00165*x)*y

where,

z is carbs needed
x is reps performed
y is lean body mass (most guys would do well to underestimate this number because it tends to be OVERestimated)

This is a fit to Poliquin's numbers and makes it easier to figure out and progress in carb amounts as volume is increased gradually.

[Frosty]

damn man do you compete?if you do which organization?

Nah, man. Maybe in a couple years if I can add some decent size. My avatar and profile pic are deceptive. I was only 187 in those pics at 6 feet tall. My only saving grace is that my waist gets down to 28" to give a good illusion of more size than I have.

[ANADROLicfreak]

bodybuilding is all about illusions though.maybe one day i will have your waist at about 270lbs.ha i would be a happy camper.

[Frosty]

bodybuilding is all about illusions though.maybe one day i will have your waist at about 270lbs.ha i would be a happy camper.

Keto is awesome for making your waist smaller! I know women love it that I help just to lose some weight because most of what they see is in their mid section which makes them very happy :)

[deadlift0]

Is it weird im sleeping better while on Daves diet?

[Frosty]

"You can add more. BUT remember that those who have
the greatest success with body transformation are
those who are able to stay in it for the long run.

Those who try to do too much, too soon will either
burn out and quit or hit a plateau that cannot be
surpassed: if you already are doing everything you
can to lose fat, once you hit a plateau there is
nowhere to go!"

-Christian Thibeadeau

[Frosty]

Is it weird im sleeping better while on Daves diet?

Well it's a healthy diet when done properly. The healthier you are the better your sleep. Also when you lose fat significantly you tend to sleep better.

[Frosty]

Quick note. I did a cheat meal last night that was a box of cinnamon toast crunch with a quart of whole milk, some Reese's mini cups, and a couple Drumsticks. I noticed I slept better without having such a heavy cheat meaning foods like Whoppers, ribs, and lots of meat. Interesting. I might continue this in the future to help assist better consistent sleep.

[Csantamaria]

Frosty thats a good pic, super lean man nice work!

[Myth]

lose muscle even if assisted?

Absolutely 100% GUARANTEED!

[Myth]

Z=(0.5307+0.00165*x)*y

where,

z is carbs needed
x is reps performed
y is lean body mass (most guys would do well to underestimate this number because it tends to be OVERestimated)

FROSTY, I'm assuming y=LBM in kg??

[Myth]

Quick note. I did a cheat meal last night that was a box of cinnamon toast crunch with a quart of whole milk, some Reese's mini cups, and a couple Drumsticks. I noticed I slept better without having such a heavy cheat meaning foods like Whoppers, ribs, and lots of meat. Interesting. I might continue this in the future to help assist better consistent sleep.

Have you tried an all day (12-18 hour) refeed with low fat/ high carb/ low fiber?

[sizeon]

what percent BMR calaries do you cut with on CKD?

[Frosty]

FROSTY, I'm assuming y=LBM in kg??

Yeah, sorry. Forgot about that part. Yes it's LBM in kg.

[Frosty]

Have you tried an all day (12-18 hour) refeed with low fat/ high carb/ low fiber?

Haven't in a long time. I can play with that once I'm in the 6% range.

[Frosty]

what percent BMR calaries do you cut with on CKD?

You just go for target amounts of macronutrients. 1.5*bwt in lbs assuming you're not obese for protein, approx 0.5-0.6*bwt in lbs for fat, and <40g carbs.

[Myth]

Haven't in a long time. I can play with that once I'm in the 6% range.

Remind me, what's your bf right now?

I think 4-5 CLEAN refeed meals will be of equivalent caloric value to your one nasty, dirty ass cheat meal!:p:D

[Frosty]

Remind me, what's your bf right now?

I think 4-5 CLEAN refeed meals will be of equivalent caloric value to your one nasty, dirty ass cheat meal!:p:D

That's no fun, though. I like just eating whatever I want.

My BF is probably 15% or so? My abs are coming in but I'm chubby. No more carb diets for me...going low carb for gaining always in the future.

[Myth]

That's no fun, though. I like just eating whatever I want.

My BF is probably 15% or so? My abs are coming in but I'm chubby. No more carb diets for me...going low carb for gaining always in the future.

NO FUN?! You must be kidding, right? Bro have you seen my blog? Check the "refeed" archives. I can make any yummy fatty food into a yummy low fat food!:D

[Myth]

I want to try to upload some "BORING" refeed pics here (according to Frosty:p). If anyone wants recipes, holla at ya boy! :D

Here are some:

[Myth]

More!

[Myth]

And yes everything is clean, ie, low fat!

[Frosty]

I mean boring because I'm not lean enough to do longer refeeds, so I'd rather just have my one meal that I can go out and have fun with. Once I get leaner I can have more fun, but I have to put in my dues first.

[tribal]

I want to try to upload some "BORING" refeed pics here (according to Frosty:p). If anyone wants recipes, holla at ya boy! :D

Here are some:


More!
come on guy!! recipes or what!

[tribal]

can ya have cucumbers on this diet??????

[Frosty]

can ya have cucumbers on this diet??????

Yes.

[Myth]

come on guy!! Recipes or what!

i posted 20 food items. What do you want me to do post all 20 freaking reipes? Lol

[Myth]

Frosty, do you watch "man vs food?" that's my new favorite show bro!

[Myth]

THIS GUY CAN REFEED LIKE NO OTHER...THIS IS LIKE 20+LBS OF FOOD!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8zJg0mwt1k

[Frosty]

No but watching it now....looks fun lol.

[deadlift0]

have u done a keto for gains frosty

[Frosty]

I've played with it a bit in the past, but I know a lot more now. I like it and I will apply what I've learned to make it better.

[deadlift0]

I was thinking about it today. Would you just eat more protein and fat and still keep 50 grams of carbs for pwo

[Frosty]

Yes, more protein and more good fats. 50g PWO is a good amount, but if you do more volume/reps it can be more.

That and if you're lean, go with more carb meals every 5th-7th day.

I like the use of BCAAs/leucine to help jack up protein synthesis without using carbs.

[-BLP-]

all is good frosty .. 233 almost 8 weeks out.. energy , sleep , libido.. all good .. but social skill , awful , i fell misanthropic , want to be alone all the time , slight boring zombie feeling aura LOL i guess neuro transmittor are a bit off ... what do u think ?