How Would You Improve Women's Bodybuilding/Figure/Fitness?

[huge285]

I'd like to hear your ideas as to how you think the women's side of the sport can be improved? What make a woman physique athlete feel good about themselves (from a coverage perspective)?

[Curt James]

I'd like to hear your ideas as to how you think the women's side of the sport can be improved? What make a woman physique athlete feel good about themselves (from a coverage perspective)?

"How Would You Improve Women's Bodybuilding/Figure/Fitness?"

For Women's Bodybuilding? Have some judging consistency.
For Figure? Have them pose and call it Classic Women's Bodybuilding.
For Fitness? All systems go!

Hire a public relations firm for the IFBB to market the sport more aggressively.

[tammyp]

i think bbing needs more magazine coverage, more shows and more personal sponsorship.

flex mag had 15 pages of nationals coverage and not a mention of the women. how about the same respect as the men?

[sassy69]

I noticed the Southern Muscle website home page shows nothing but men's BB & figure... WTF? Does the concept of women's BB not even qualify for coverage in a competition e-mag? I was shocked.

I'd be going for more consistent judging criteria, and I'd put that across all women's physique categories with a clear path of advancement up.

I agree that it would be great if the sponsorships and financial incentive were there as well to give it more exposure and a place to go other than just the mass amounts of entry-level competitors that, IMO figure & this bikini thing are catering too.

[sweetjane57]

IMO:
I don't think Figure needs anymore coverage than it already has.

Fitness just needs more competitors and I think they would get it.

Bikini belongs in Shape and Fitness.

FBB needs more magazine coverage. PERIOD.More than once, I have seen the excuse that "fbb is just not marketable". Drives me bananas:mad: More than 50% of the "market" is US(competitors/people in the industry/people who actually follow the sport). If supplement companies believe they could sell more product(to the mainstream) by using Figure/Fitness/Bikini models, that's FINE. Sponsorship/ad coverage is one thing, deservable magazine coverage is another. I think FBB needs more coverage as far as contest coverage and training articles. Heck, more pictures in general or even a few page pictoral bio once a month.

[tammyp]

my concern with bikini is its another pull from wbbing. hot big boobed girls get magazine coverage. now were struggling with 4 womens catagories for attention.

[Sledge]

my concern with bikini is its another pull from wbbing. hot big boobed girls get magazine coverage. now were struggling with 4 womens catagories for attention.


I agree. Those figure girls are to muscular and masculine and they are not what the general public want. Thank god for bikini finally something we can all want to fuck......um.....I mean admire there physiques.

[MsGuns]

IMO:
I don't think Figure needs anymore coverage than it already has.

Fitness just needs more competitors and I think they would get it.

Bikini belongs in Shape and Fitness.

FBB needs more magazine coverage. PERIOD.More than once, I have seen the excuse that "fbb is just not marketable". Drives me bananas:mad: More than 50% of the "market" is US(competitors/people in the industry/people who actually follow the sport). If supplement companies believe they could sell more product(to the mainstream) by using Figure/Fitness/Bikini models, that's FINE. Sponsorship/ad coverage is one thing, deservable magazine coverage is another. I think FBB needs more coverage as far as contest coverage and training articles. Heck, more pictures in general or even a few page pictoral bio once a month.

ditto

Have they ever tried puttin a FBB on the cover? what was the response?

[HeavyDutyGuy]

Just a thought- with FOUR divisions, I think its getting too diluted..

[FitGems]

My take on it:

For bikini, I'll see what happens with it this year before I pass judgment
Fitness needs more competitors
Women's Bodybuilding needs more exposure outside the female-only boards and sites
Figure needs a consistant format (either stick with a hard or soft look; don't flip-flop is year-to-year)

Bottom line, if it were up to me, the WOMEN would be in charge of the FEMALE side of the sport. Last I checked, the women knew more about themselves than the men do.:cool:

[Arina Manta]

What I would like to see in figure ( Pro level ) in the states is the 5 compulsory poses ( open hand ). In Australia at the National level we do have the compulsory poses and the quarter turns, which makes it much easier for the judges to choose the best physiques and also it is more entertaining for the fans and much more fun for the girls on stage being able to show their hard work. I believe that doing just the quarter turns it is not enough to choose the best physiques.

Arina

[HeavyDutyGuy]

My take on it:

For bikini, I'll see what happens with it this year before I pass judgment
Fitness needs more competitors
Women's Bodybuilding needs more exposure outside the female-only boards and sites
Figure needs a consistant format (either stick with a hard or soft look; don't flip-flop is year-to-year)

Bottom line, if it were up to me, the WOMEN would be in charge of the FEMALE side of the sport. Last I checked, the women knew more about themselves than the men do.:cool:

So why don't the woman take charge of their own sport rhen?

[Skeptic]

so why don't the woman take charge of their own sport rhen?

Bingo!

[tammyp]

Bingo!

BETTY pariso is the womens rep for the ifbb already.

[Skeptic]

BETTY pariso is the womens rep for the ifbb already.

How many reps are there at the IFBB? How many are male vs. female? Who at the IFBB is making the decisions wrt the female side of the sport?

I am not being sarcastic in any way. I am asking serious questions.

[Allifit]

Fitness just needs more competitors and I think they would get it.
:beerbang:


Bikini belongs in Shape and Fitness.

:beerbang:

FBB needs more magazine coverage. PERIOD.More than once, I have seen the excuse that "fbb is just not marketable". Drives me bananas:mad: More than 50% of the "market" is US(competitors/people in the industry/people who actually follow the sport). If supplement companies believe they could sell more product(to the mainstream) by using Figure/Fitness/Bikini models, that's FINE. Sponsorship/ad coverage is one thing, deservable magazine coverage is another. I think FBB needs more coverage as far as contest coverage and training articles. Heck, more pictures in general or even a few page pictoral bio once a month.

Agreed. It's ENTIRELY disheartening to pick up a magazine after something like the Arnold and unfold to 25+ pages that report (sometimes redundantly) on the men's side of the sport, without so much as any mention of the women's side of things. Nothing. Not even a list of who placed where.

And the whole "fbb isn't marketable" statement is bullshit. I did an interview the other evening with Kevin Levrone for my radio show and he said, "fbbing isn't struggling in the mainstream ,it's never been mainstream. It's struggling within it's own industry, and that's where the real disappointment is". He's right. Bodybuilding was never mainstream, nor was it meant to be. But female bodybuiding warrants more attention from within its own industry and in my mind that means magazine coverage, using some female bbers as magazine centerfolds as opposed to Jennifer Nicole Lee a zillion freaking times in a row, and supplement companies paying more attention working with or sponsoring fbbers, figure competitors, and fitness athletes.

As for fitness I think we need to focus on gaining the sport more competitors and I think the exposure will come. Fitness is amazing and I hate to see it struggle in terms of numbers.

As for figure I think the judges need to iron out what they're looking for so we can start to CUT BACK on the numbers. 250 national level girls doing quarter turns all night is nuts, even for me, and I'm one of them. It's boring. It's not entertaining. I'm with Curt on adding some posing to figure. I'd LOVE it.

[GirlyMuscle]

BETTY pariso is the womens rep for the ifbb already.
Yeah. What a big help she's been.








Not.

[Mufasa]

Dave:

I was asked to post this here. (I sent it also to Collette and Krissy as a possible topic for their show):


I posted this for Collette and Kristy to consider on their show:


IS IT TIME FOR A SUMMITT OF SOME SORT?

Colette and Krissy:

Somehow I think that recrimination and placing blame on individuals will get us no where when it comes to the current state of Female Bodybuiding; so I'll throw this out:

How about a weekend SUMMITT/TOWN MEETING?

It HAS to have Jim Manion; select sponsors ; AND the promoters serving as a panel; maybe DebbieB or Dave or Colette...SOMEONE serving as moderator; with those in attendance having input much like a City or County Commission meeting.

While a separate weekend may be better...it may be more feasible to hold it the weekend of the "AC" or the "Olympia" since most, if not all, parties would already be present.

Keep the Topic Focused and to the Point:

"What can and should be done to make Pro Female Bodybuilding Contest economically viable for the Promoters and Sponsors"?


While we may throw things out here and there on these Forums...this is serious enough of a topic where you have to have input from a) those who put up the money (sponsers and promoters) and b) those who ultimately make decisions (Jim Manion).

Summitts don't always end with the answers we want...but don't you guys think that its about time to do something?


Thanks, guys!



Is this even viable, Dave?

Mufasa

[Carolyn Bryant]

In reference to women's bodybuilding, I think they should take notes from Jim McMahon and the WWE. Check out those vixens. Strong, pretty girls with some muscle. Allow only those who can pass a psychological exam. Screw a drug test. Change the stage for Fitness with some rubber floor pads. Make Figure girls show some talent instead of quarter turns. That's boring.

[Carolyn Bryant]

Got the perfect solution for women's bodybuilding, Dave.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3aWWPvYTP4&NR=1

[~gymdiva~]

In reference to women's bodybuilding, I think they should take notes from Jim McMahon and the WWE.


ok if you're going to reference stuff like this please get your facts straight...



Jim McMahon = former Bears quarterback

VINCE McMahon = owner, CEO of WWE

[Sledge]

In reference to women's bodybuilding, I think they should take notes from Jim McMahon and the WWE. Check out those vixens. Strong, pretty girls with some muscle. Allow only those who can pass a psychological exam. Screw a drug test. Change the stage for Fitness with some rubber floor pads. Make Figure girls show some talent instead of quarter turns. That's boring.


You are so sexist. No wonder womens BB is so fucked up. Even you, a woman BB want it to be about sex and fuckability. It's supposed to be about bodybuilding. What next would you like hairstyles to be part of the judging. I can see the report now Yexani lost points because the jeniffer aniston look is so yesterday. If I want fuckability I'll go to a strip club or buy a playboy. If I go to a bodybuilding competition I want to see bodybuilders. Both male and female, I want to see them muscular and cut and in proportion not soft and chubby and under dieted. Do I find top level FBBs sexy, no I don't, funily enough I don't find the men sexy either. but I don't look at them or go see the shows to make my cock hard I go to the shows and read the articles because i have an interest in bodybuilding. Maybe if more people concentrated on making the sport of bodybuilding better and better instead of just trying to make a buck out of it we'd all be better off.

[Carolyn Bryant]

You got me. It is Vince McMahon indeed. When you hit the send button it's too late to correct a type-O. Jimbo might have some good advice, too. Afterall, he won a Super Bowl with marginal talent.

[Carolyn Bryant]

That's the best thing you said all day my friend (Sledge). I totally agree that more people should concentrate on making bodybuilding better. First step is to return it to it's purity and rid the sport of pretenders who need drugs to build big muscles. BODYBUILDING IS FOR THE GENTICALLY GIFTED! I certainly don't look at female bodybuilders for their "fuckability" potential. Yes, I am somewhat sexist. I'm also a realist.

[tammyp]

agree with you erin...we need someone like colette as the rep for the women.

carolyn, who exactly are you? you seem to have a lot to say about the sport, but i think i can speak for others when I say i have no idea who you are.

[MsGuns]

agree with you erin...we need someone like colette as the rep for the women.

carolyn, who exactly are you? you seem to have a lot to say about the sport, but i think i can speak for others when I say i have no idea who you are.

Why do you have to know who she is? She is Carolyn Bryant, a competitive bodybuilder, a trainer, a mother who speaks her mind...what else?

[MsGuns]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bR0qsqFRPg

Interview of Judges on how to improve women's bodybuilding...

I believe it was 2006....

[Sledge]

I think the best thing for woman's physique sports is coverage and information getting out there. More interviews, more training articles, more womens show coverage and more putting a personality to the body.

And some of the women physique competitors out there have overcome past obstacles to live a better life through the sport/lifestyle. Instead of people seeing a body let them see a person as well. One thing that's amazed me since I developed and interest in FBB is that women i'd looked at in the past an masculin and always though must have gender issues are realy just women. With the same issues, insecuritys, strengths needs and wants as any other women. They like, and have, big muscles but underneath that exterior is a woman. Why not show that side as well.

I'm sure there was a progression for most from training for health or fitness or another sport to becoming a physique competitor. I'd be interested in reading about that side of things too.

[Sledge]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bR0qsqFRPg

Interview of Judges on how to improve women's bodybuilding...

I believe it was 2006....


Thats interesting thanks for posting it. A couple of things that got up my nose a little about that. (so to speak:))

1) Not one woman BB or exFBB.

2) Not one woman.

3) Only one of the judges looked like he had ever lifted a weight. (but that's subjective and I could be totally wrong)

I kind of understand with what they were getting at. But it all seemed so abstract. Do they have any rules that are straight down the line, easy to understand, demonstrable etc etc etc. I think the main problem with womens BB and Figure and now even Bikini judging is they can tell competitors what the don't want but they can't put down simple rules as to what they want. comments like 20% less muscle, not fully dieted down, more athletic are just so abstract as to be meaningless and so open to individual interpretation as to render it almost imposable to judge uniformly acrossthe sport. A winner judged at one show would come last at another depending on a judges interpretation of 20% less muscle or not dieted down is. Sure all bodybuilding is subjective but at least there is a clear judging format for men.

[Skeptic]

WWE = abnormally high mortality rate for athletes = raised eyebrows = I stay away and I think you should to.

[MsGuns]

Thats interesting thanks for posting it. A couple of things that got up my nose a little about that. (so to speak:))

1) Not one woman BB or exFBB.

2) Not one woman.

3) Only one of the judges looked like he had ever lifted a weight. (but that's subjective and I could be totally wrong)

I kind of understand with what they were getting at. But it all seemed so abstract. Do they have any rules that are straight down the line, easy to understand, demonstrable etc etc etc. I think the main problem with womens BB and Figure and now even Bikini judging is they can tell competitors what the don't want but they can't put down simple rules as to what they want. comments like 20% less muscle, not fully dieted down, more athletic are just so abstract as to be meaningless and so open to individual interpretation as to render it almost imposable to judge uniformly acrossthe sport. A winner judged at one show would come last at another depending on a judges interpretation of 20% less muscle or not dieted down is. Sure all bodybuilding is subjective but at least there is a clear judging format for men.

your welcome
Good points Sledge

I think a meeting w/ JM is needed w/ all the women either at the Arnold or Olympia...

He needs to hear from them and they need to hear what he's going to do.

[SallyAnne]

:beerbang:



:beerbang:


Agreed. It's ENTIRELY disheartening to pick up a magazine after something like the Arnold and unfold to 25+ pages that report (sometimes redundantly) on the men's side of the sport, without so much as any mention of the women's side of things. Nothing. Not even a list of who placed where.

And the whole "fbb isn't marketable" statement is bullshit. I did an interview the other evening with Kevin Levrone for my radio show and he said, "fbbing isn't struggling in the mainstream ,it's never been mainstream. It's struggling within it's own industry, and that's where the real disappointment is". He's right. Bodybuilding was never mainstream, nor was it meant to be. But female bodybuiding warrants more attention from within its own industry and in my mind that means magazine coverage, using some female bbers as magazine centerfolds as opposed to Jennifer Nicole Lee a zillion freaking times in a row, and supplement companies paying more attention working with or sponsoring fbbers, figure competitors, and fitness athletes.

As for fitness I think we need to focus on gaining the sport more competitors and I think the exposure will come. Fitness is amazing and I hate to see it struggle in terms of numbers.

As for figure I think the judges need to iron out what they're looking for so we can start to CUT BACK on the numbers. 250 national level girls doing quarter turns all night is nuts, even for me, and I'm one of them. It's boring. It's not entertaining. I'm with Curt on adding some posing to figure. I'd LOVE it.


good post. i agree.

[sassy69]

^^ Double agreement.

[tammyp]

does jim manion do interviews? we need to get colette and krissy to talk to him.

[Allifit]

does jim manion do interviews? we need to get colette and krissy to talk to him.

Tammy- JM interviewed with us over on siouxcountry. I won't post the link cause I know I shouldn't :) But don't get your hopes up. What he said about fbbing hit hard with a lot of women and NOT in a positive way. He basically said ffbbing was dying, plain and simple, and he gave the whole "it doesnt sell, it isnt marketable" explanation.

[Allifit]

good post. i agree.

I guess I just don't understand the "it isn't marketable" statement. It makes it seem as though female bodybuilding once was marketable and now somehow, it's not, and that's never been the case.

Leaving gender out the entire sport of bbing isnt mainstream, so if we're referring to marketable in terms of the mainstream public well of COURSE its not marketable, NONE of it is! Not figure, not fitness, not female bodybuiling, not male bodybuiling- the look is too extreme for most.

I think the issue of marketablility needs to be directed more from within- how can we make the INDUSTRY more interested in female bodybuilding? How can we get more sponsorships open for female athletes in general, ESPECIALLY pros? How can we make magazine editors aware of the value in including more coverage for female bodybuilding, figure, and fitness? How can we include women in some of the more hardcore training magazines? These are the questions I feel we should be addressing, not 'how do we save female bodybuiling by making it more marketable to the mainstream?"

Because to me that statement is bullshit. It's been said that female bodybuilders have become so hardcore and so extreme that their look is no longer marketable. Well although the look HAS changed, I have news for everyone- Cory Everson and Rachel McLish were not marketable either, not for their time. They were just as hardcore and extreme to the 80's/90's as Iris Kyle is now. We look at their physiques and call them "marketable" in accordance with TODAY'S standards, but the fact of the matter is they were never "mainstrem" either, not when they were competing.

Because the mainstream public is equally as deer in headlights over figure for instance, as they are at female bodybuilding. When I tell the average joe I compete in figure they have no clue what I'm talking about. In fact nine times out of ten they say something like 'oh so that's like women's bbing huh?" More people outside the industry have heard of bbing then have heard of figure.

I'm not a female bber so I hate to speak for them- but I can speak as an athlete and I can say honestly I could care LESS about being mainstream. I don't mind that my sport isn't mainstream or isnt covered on ESPN etc. It's not my goal to be in "Shape" magazine or to appeal to the average person. It doesnt concern me.

What DOES concern me is the lack of attention paid to the female side of the sport from WITHIN the industry, especially the lack of attention paid to female bbers. I'm sick of seeing twig thin girls featured in Flex and MD and MuscleMag as centerfolds when I can list dozens of sexy, feminine, and extremly talented fbbers, figure, and fitnes athletes who SHOULD be featured. I'm tired of hearing how male such and such got a sponsorship, or how another male bber signed another 6 figure contract with a company- and yet hundreds of female atheltes go unsponsored. I'm tired of opening hardcore training magazines and not seeing one iota of contest coverage devoted to women. Women make up the majority of competitors in this industry yet we get the least amount of coverage, sponsorships, and attention. To me- THATS what seems off. Not this stupid redundant issue of mainstream marketability.

[fitbody]

Promotion
when i hear it said that Female BB doesn't sell
what i think about is
anything in the right hands can be sold
it depends if you believe in your product
and who the salesperson is

i keep asking God to drop a shitload of dough on me
cuz i truely believe in the sport of womens bodybuilding
i don't care what you call it
bikini, figure, fitness, bodybuilding
it's all bodybuilding just different levels, different physiques
different gifts, different talents, different tastes
thank God we're not all the same
thatz what makes life so freakin interesting

the amount of women in this world that are involved in the sport at different levels is staggering, not to mention their friends, families, and supporters, fans, admirers...

Its amazing to me that "THE WOMEN" get so little magazine coverage for any and all of it...
as a full time personal trainer i ask for a picture of what my clients wanna look like. I'd have to say most of my clientele are women, bringing tons of pics of women, i'd say mostly figure competitors... but really there not tons of pics out there in current mags that are on the stands, the women aren't buying the mags to look at the men (of course unless their hardcore like me, most women don't like that degree of muscularity on a man) so you can't say thatz whatz selling the mags

if i had the dough i'd start a mag only for the women
and a 1/4 would be bodybuilding, 1/4 figure, 1/4 fitness, 1/4 bikini
no more no less thatz it, even steven
something for everyone

I'd have a supplement line for women
and a percentage the profit would be injected back into the sport
i'd promote that too...
cuz what i'm grasping is that "the sponsors" who apparently don't wanna sponsor the womens classes don't think the women are buying there products !!! which is very confusing to me cuz i've been working in gyms and the supplement industry for over 25 yrs
and a pretty freakin large percentage is women buying the supplements, etc...

so, what i think
is what the sport needs is promotion and marketing
from people who believe in their product
I, in no way believe the sport is dying
quite the contrary it's growing larger than even
it's just changing to allow more women of more different body types avenues to be the best they can be and be themselves
and not try to be a figure girl if they really are a bikini girl
and me i'm a bodybuilder, cuz thatz the way i was wired
i'm from a long line of coal miners from Northern England - TOUGH STOCK !!!
even if i didn't train for 10 yrs i wouldn't lose the muscle God blessed me with in order to compete in Figure or Bikini
I wonder if a bodycast would work ???
No just wouldn't be me !!!!

[Gaoshang Xiongshou]

I guess I just don't understand the "it isn't marketable" statement. It makes it seem as though female bodybuilding once was marketable and now somehow, it's not, and that's never been the case.

Leaving gender out the entire sport of bbing isnt mainstream, so if we're referring to marketable in terms of the mainstream public well of COURSE its not marketable, NONE of it is! Not figure, not fitness, not female bodybuiling, not male bodybuiling- the look is too extreme for most.

I think the issue of marketablility needs to be directed more from within- how can we make the INDUSTRY more interested in female bodybuilding? How can we get more sponsorships open for female athletes in general, ESPECIALLY pros? How can we make magazine editors aware of the value in including more coverage for female bodybuilding, figure, and fitness? How can we include women in some of the more hardcore training magazines? These are the questions I feel we should be addressing, not 'how do we save female bodybuiling by making it more marketable to the mainstream?"

Because to me that statement is bullshit. It's been said that female bodybuilders have become so hardcore and so extreme that their look is no longer marketable. Well although the look HAS changed, I have news for everyone- Cory Everson and Rachel McLish were not marketable either, not for their time. They were just as hardcore and extreme to the 80's/90's as Iris Kyle is now. We look at their physiques and call them "marketable" in accordance with TODAY'S standards, but the fact of the matter is they were never "mainstrem" either, not when they were competing.

Because the mainstream public is equally as deer in headlights over figure for instance, as they are at female bodybuilding. When I tell the average joe I compete in figure they have no clue what I'm talking about. In fact nine times out of ten they say something like 'oh so that's like women's bbing huh?" More people outside the industry have heard of bbing then have heard of figure.

I'm not a female bber so I hate to speak for them- but I can speak as an athlete and I can say honestly I could care LESS about being mainstream. I don't mind that my sport isn't mainstream or isnt covered on ESPN etc. It's not my goal to be in "Shape" magazine or to appeal to the average person. It doesnt concern me.

What DOES concern me is the lack of attention paid to the female side of the sport from WITHIN the industry, especially the lack of attention paid to female bbers. I'm sick of seeing twig thin girls featured in Flex and MD and MuscleMag as centerfolds when I can list dozens of sexy, feminine, and extremly talented fbbers, figure, and fitnes athletes who SHOULD be featured. I'm tired of hearing how male such and such got a sponsorship, or how another male bber signed another 6 figure contract with a company- and yet hundreds of female atheltes go unsponsored. I'm tired of opening hardcore training magazines and not seeing one iota of contest coverage devoted to women. Women make up the majority of competitors in this industry yet we get the least amount of coverage, sponsorships, and attention. To me- THATS what seems off. Not this stupid redundant issue of mainstream marketability.



I really think that it is not a matter of if this is marketable, but rather that the powers that be do not want to even try to prove that female bodybuilding is marketable. They would rather just say 'no', and hope that that answer satisfies everyone.

Why not take the chance? Are they afraid they may be proven wrong? Granted, they will not sway everyone, but they will get some new fans out of their efforts, and that is hardly a waste.

Seriously, for all of the neglect and dismissal of female bodybuilding from the inside, the full lack of support just has an undertone of misogyny to me. I could be reading WAY too much into it, but that is how I see it.

[tammyp]

if we say its not marketable, then it isnt. market us..have they tried, really? the npc/ifbb is saying we arent, do nothing, and they drop the topic like a hot rock. i know many of the higher ups (from personal conversation) refer to many of the larger wbber as men. so we lack alot of the support from where we should be embracing it. all we can do is compete, love the sport and if you win a pro card COMPETE AS A PRO! it wont go away if we stand strong and keep at it.

[Gaoshang Xiongshou]

if we say its not marketable, then it isnt. market us..have they tried, really? the npc/ifbb is saying we arent, do nothing, and they drop the topic like a hot rock. i know many of the higher ups (from personal conversation) refer to many of the larger wbber as men. so we lack alot of the support from where we should be embracing it. all we can do is compete, love the sport and if you win a pro card COMPETE AS A PRO! it wont go away if we stand strong and keep at it.

:eek:

Where is the solidarity in all of this?!

[Skeptic]

Seriously, for all of the neglect and dismissal of female bodybuilding from the inside, the full lack of support just has an undertone of misogyny to me. I could be reading WAY too much into it, but that is how I see it.

I'm with GX on this one. I think you women need to get men organizers out of your sport entirely. It's YOUR sport.

[Allifit]

I'm with GX on this one. I think you women need to get men organizers out of your sport entirely. It's YOUR sport.

*sigh* easier said then done.

[Gaoshang Xiongshou]

*sigh* easier said then done.


Seems like not only that, but perhaps get some women into the ranks of the "higher ups" as well.

Also, easier said than done. Of course, I also do not know if any women are there already.

[Malika]

What I would like to see in figure ( Pro level ) in the states is the 5 compulsory poses ( open hand ). In Australia at the National level we do have the compulsory poses and the quarter turns, which makes it much easier for the judges to choose the best physiques and also it is more entertaining for the fans and much more fun for the girls on stage being able to show their hard work. I believe that doing just the quarter turns it is not enough to choose the best physiques.

Arina


X2

That's what put me off competing with Ifbb: training all year round then dieting 16-12 weeks to only do 1/4 turns doesn't appeal to me.

[K-Max]

I wouldn't say that FBB isn't marketable, it may be a factor, but the mainstream business models just don't work with it right now. Seriously, I love female bodybuilders and nothing would please me more than to plaster pictorials of sexy, beefy, beautiful gals and profile women who have compelling stories and can bench 200+ pounds all over hundreds of pages of print magazine.

But... how many would buy? Not enough for me to make it a good investment. So, I turn to the web.

I mean... seriously, how many FBB websites are out there now compared to the guys? As far as how I counted, MORE than the male bodybuilding sites.

[MsGuns]

arrange a meeting w/ Jim manion and discuss

or email him the concerns w/ a lot of FBBs signatures...

[Allifit]

if we say its not marketable, then it isnt. market us..have they tried, really? the npc/ifbb is saying we arent, do nothing, and they drop the topic like a hot rock. i know many of the higher ups (from personal conversation) refer to many of the larger wbber as men. so we lack alot of the support from where we should be embracing it. all we can do is compete, love the sport and if you win a pro card COMPETE AS A PRO! it wont go away if we stand strong and keep at it.
I just don't see marketing the sport to the mainstream as a concern. IMO fbbing is suffering within its own industry and thats a far more immediate concern to me. I don't recall bodybuilding, male or female, ever being termed "marketable to the mainstream". If that were the case the Olympia and the Arnold would be on ESPN etc. BUT male bodybuilding is succesful within its own industry and THATS where the difference lies. Men are getting sponsorships, attention, magazine exposure, etc whereas women are not.

[Allifit]

Seems like not only that, but perhaps get some women into the ranks of the "higher ups" as well.

Also, easier said than done. Of course, I also do not know if any women are there already.
Personally I could care less if there are men or women up there. Women are equally as capable of sabaotaging their own sport as men are. Male OR female, its about getting the RIGHT people in charge, irregardless of gender. I know some men who are more supportive of women's bbing then women are.

[Gaoshang Xiongshou]

Personally I could care less if there are men or women up there. Women are equally as capable of sabaotaging their own sport as men are. Male OR female, its about getting the RIGHT people in charge, irregardless of gender. I know some men who are more supportive of women's bbing then women are.

Good point. The people who care need to step up then.

[Skeptic]

I know some men who are more supportive of women's bbing then women are.

This had not occurred to me. :(

[K-Max]

I just don't see marketing the sport to the mainstream as a concern. IMO fbbing is suffering within its own industry and thats a far more immediate concern to me. I don't recall bodybuilding, male or female, ever being termed "marketable to the mainstream". If that were the case the Olympia and the Arnold would be on ESPN etc. BUT male bodybuilding is succesful within its own industry and THATS where the difference lies. Men are getting sponsorships, attention, magazine exposure, etc whereas women are not.

How is fbbing suffering within its own industries? Not sure what you mean by this. And yeah, if true, that's definitely not good news.

[SallyAnne]

I guess I just don't understand the "it isn't marketable" statement. It makes it seem as though female bodybuilding once was marketable and now somehow, it's not, and that's never been the case.

Leaving gender out the entire sport of bbing isnt mainstream, so if we're referring to marketable in terms of the mainstream public well of COURSE its not marketable, NONE of it is! Not figure, not fitness, not female bodybuiling, not male bodybuiling- the look is too extreme for most.

I think the issue of marketablility needs to be directed more from within- how can we make the INDUSTRY more interested in female bodybuilding? How can we get more sponsorships open for female athletes in general, ESPECIALLY pros? How can we make magazine editors aware of the value in including more coverage for female bodybuilding, figure, and fitness? How can we include women in some of the more hardcore training magazines? These are the questions I feel we should be addressing, not 'how do we save female bodybuiling by making it more marketable to the mainstream?"

Because to me that statement is bullshit. It's been said that female bodybuilders have become so hardcore and so extreme that their look is no longer marketable. Well although the look HAS changed, I have news for everyone- Cory Everson and Rachel McLish were not marketable either, not for their time. They were just as hardcore and extreme to the 80's/90's as Iris Kyle is now. We look at their physiques and call them "marketable" in accordance with TODAY'S standards, but the fact of the matter is they were never "mainstrem" either, not when they were competing.

Because the mainstream public is equally as deer in headlights over figure for instance, as they are at female bodybuilding. When I tell the average joe I compete in figure they have no clue what I'm talking about. In fact nine times out of ten they say something like 'oh so that's like women's bbing huh?" More people outside the industry have heard of bbing then have heard of figure.

I'm not a female bber so I hate to speak for them- but I can speak as an athlete and I can say honestly I could care LESS about being mainstream. I don't mind that my sport isn't mainstream or isnt covered on ESPN etc. It's not my goal to be in "Shape" magazine or to appeal to the average person. It doesnt concern me.

What DOES concern me is the lack of attention paid to the female side of the sport from WITHIN the industry, especially the lack of attention paid to female bbers. I'm sick of seeing twig thin girls featured in Flex and MD and MuscleMag as centerfolds when I can list dozens of sexy, feminine, and extremly talented fbbers, figure, and fitnes athletes who SHOULD be featured. I'm tired of hearing how male such and such got a sponsorship, or how another male bber signed another 6 figure contract with a company- and yet hundreds of female atheltes go unsponsored. I'm tired of opening hardcore training magazines and not seeing one iota of contest coverage devoted to women. Women make up the majority of competitors in this industry yet we get the least amount of coverage, sponsorships, and attention. To me- THATS what seems off. Not this stupid redundant issue of mainstream marketability.


Again, I completely agree. Alli - you're saving me tons and tons of typing time. ;) lol

[Allifit]

How is fbbing suffering within its own industries? Not sure what you mean by this. And yeah, if true, that's definitely not good news.

I mean that there's all this chatter about how fbbing isn't marketable. My question is "marketable to whom?" And the general response seems to be "marketable to the mainstream". To which I would respond- "who cares", and this is why I would respond that way;

Bodybuilding is general, male OR female isn't mainstream, nor has it ever been. It never will be. I know people like Ben Weider fought to get bbing into the mainstream eye but the bottom line is that its too extreme for most mainstream tastes. Given that statement, I return to this notion that fbbing isn't marketable to the mainstream- again who cares?

Fbbing is suffering from within, and by that I mean ITS OWN INDUSTRY isn't giving fbbing the contest coverage, the promotion, the magazine exposure, or the supplement sponsorship that it is giving to its male counterparts. This is evident by the VAST monetary award difference in the Mr Olympia winner as opposed to the Ms Olympia winner. Why is the difference so drastic? Female athletes make up the majority of the industry- esp when fbbing is taken into account with figure and fitness. Therefore I want to know WHY we have gotten little attention, credit, exposure, publicity, sponsorship, and respect from within?

Screw this "marketable to the mainstream" crap- focus on marketing fbbing and the female side of the sport in general from within, to the fanbase it ALREADY has and it will flourish.

[K-Max]

Female athletes make up the majority of the industry- esp when fbbing is taken into account with figure and fitness. Therefore I want to know WHY we have gotten little attention, credit, exposure, publicity, sponsorship, and respect from within?

Screw this "marketable to the mainstream" crap- focus on marketing fbbing and the female side of the sport in general from within, to the fanbase it ALREADY has and it will flourish.

I agree, but I would almost think that there's too much focus on trying to market and re-brand FBB and not enough focus on re-developing and modernizing the business models to allow female bodybuilding to flourish the way that most athletes like it to be. Once new business models are made and are sustainable, everything else, marketing, exposure, sponsorships, etc and so on will follow.

Will it be easy? Hell no.

[Allifit]

I agree, but I would almost think that there's too much focus on trying to market and re-brand FBB and not enough focus on re-developing and modernizing the business models to allow female bodybuilding to flourish the way that most athletes like it to be. Once new business models are made and are sustainable, everything else, marketing, exposure, sponsorships, etc and so on will follow.

Will it be easy? Hell no.

Not sure how "marketing and rebranding" differentiates from "re-developing and modernizing"? I guess I need this one explained more lol....

[JVALDEZ]

1. FBB needs more press and coverage

2. Fitness needs more competitors

3. Maybe figure needs various level divisions? ex: novice,intermidiate,advance, then all the different types of looks could be judge more a accuratly

4. Nothing against bikini(my wife is a competitior)but what if it were introduced as a some sort of begining figure class? and not bikini? then would it be more accecptable to the people against bikini?

5.As members and supporters of the IFBB & NPC we should be banning together as whole instead of singling out certain divisions of our sport.

6.I love it all!!

[K-Max]

Not sure how "marketing and rebranding" differentiates from "re-developing and modernizing"? I guess I need this one explained more lol....

LOL. No probs. What I mean by redeveloping and modernizing the business model is that the FBB cash machine needs work. The way money is made from FBB is still really the old way from the 80's. People go and pay money to attend a show and watch muscular women flex and pose on stage.

That business model isn't working now. The cash machine needs a major upgrade or a new one has to be made.

Marketing and branding is how you show off the product and create value for it. My point is that so much more effort has been spent to try and make FBB "look better" than trying to make FBB "work better".

[K-Max]

I forgot to mention that sponsors / advertisers pick up most of the tab at shows. But without them, there's a shortfall of funds.

[Allifit]

LOL. No probs. What I mean by redeveloping and modernizing the business model is that the FBB cash machine needs work. The way money is made from FBB is still really the old way from the 80's. People go and pay money to attend a show and watch muscular women flex and pose on stage.

That business model isn't working now. The cash machine needs a major upgrade or a new one has to be made.

Marketing and branding is how you show off the product and create value for it. My point is that so much more effort has been spent to try and make FBB "look better" than trying to make FBB "work better".
Okay we are on the same page now :)

Unfortunately I d not know a lot about that, so I feel like I'm not sure how to comment- what I CAN comment on is the statement you made about focusing on making FBB "look" better. That's absurd. I completely agree with you that we do not need to focus on that. The male bbing look has grown, evolved, and become more extreme so it only stands to reason that fbbing will do the same. Male bbers in the 80's do not look like male bbers now, therefore nor wil fbbers. You can no more reign in fbbing then you could reign in male bbing. I think we need to sit back, accept fbbing for what it is and then move forward with clear goals at how we can promote, support, and encourage those athletes.

It's not important to get fbbing into Shape magaine, or to see it on mainstream TV. While that may be "nice" at some point, what is going to help the sport grow and survive is encouragement from within, and in my mind that means magazine exposure, contest coverage, and increased sponsorships and attention from supplement companies. I find it terribly upsetting that I can open a Flex or an MD and not see ANY training advice from women. I get upset when I read an entire 15 page spread on the Arnold Classic results and there is no discussion of the women's side of the sport. Those are the things I think we need to fix first before there is any more discussion of this mainstream marketability crap.

[Allifit]

3. Maybe figure needs various level divisions? ex: novice,intermidiate,advance, then all the different types of looks could be judge more a accuratly

God more classes of quarter turns. Absolutely not lol. I compete in figure and I get sick of all the damn competitiors. Not to mention I think women just need to WAIT to get on stage- and lift and train for a few years before they go strutting around in a stage suit. I think we need to narrow the straits not loosen them. Soon ANYONE in ANY shape will be able to get on stage and do their thing and to me, that's an insult to all the training we go through, to see some cardio bunny who weightlifted for 6 months hop on stage to do figure.

I am unsure what exactly figure needs but I worry about it a lot. I think figure needs more solid judging criteria of course, but I ccan kiss that one goodbye lol. I doubt it'll EVER happen. :) We compete in a subjective sport. I think we can right messy judging off as occupational hazard:) But I agree it would be nice to see more posing from the figure girls, and as a figure girl it would be great to do more with my physique then quarter turns.


4. Nothing against bikini(my wife is a competitior)but what if it were introduced as a some sort of begining figure class? and not bikini?
Gasp. God NO. "beginning figure class???" heck no :)


then would it be more accecptable to the people against bikini?

I don't think so. Nothing against your wife- she's beautiful and looked FABULOUS, but this bikini thing is just insane in my opinion. They hold "bikini contests" in bars. They host Hooters bikini contests. I competed in a bikini contest drunk in Daytona beach on spring break when I was 18. In what WORLD did the NPC decided to introduce something like this into the most prestigious amateur PHYSIQUE organization? I dont know. Irregardless bikini is here apparently to stay, and as much of a bad taste as it leaves in my mouth I need to get over it. :) But I don't think changing the name will make it any more acceptable to others. In all honesty, I think the only thing that will make it acceptable is time. Who knows.


5.As members and supporters of the IFBB & NPC we should be banning together as whole instead of singling out certain divisions of our sport.

True- but fbbing is under the most stress and scrutiny right now. Therefore their division warrants the most focus. Figure is flourishing, hell the numbers at shows are staggering so a more immediate concern is fbbing.


6.I love it all!!

:beerbang:Me too!!!!!!!!!!! well... except bikini. :) lol. Sorry that's just one bus I can't board yet!

[Curt James]

I guess I just don't understand the "it isn't marketable" statement.

No one asked for a book, but, hey, how about a book?

Maybe men don't want to be identified as... schmoes.

I teach in an elementary school and definitely dislike name calling. Kids do it all the time and it's just ridiculous. I said the one day that if everyone looked exactly the same the children would pick on each other based on who smells differently.

Is it ingrained in the human species to nitpick and criticize?

Regardless, people typically hate to be embarrassed and perhaps that's why they shy away from fbb or supporting the sport overtly:

"Wh-wh-what will the guys think?" http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/curt_james/Rx/smileys/tbang.gif

Sure, they'll secretly pay for their female muscle worship sites, but if you ask them if they like fbb as a sport then they'll go all NASCAR, NFL, NBA on you.

And since most things revolve around sex appeal, perhaps the majority of men (and therefore sponsors) choose to avoid (or are not naturally inclined to focus their attention on) women with more muscle than they possess.

I don't know.

And maybe that crap is just a rehash of what others have stated. More likely it's just crap. :mad:

One thing I mentioned elsewhere is that I wish bodybuilding would couple with the battle against muscular dystrophy. This stupid steroid witch hunt really puts the kibosh on it, I suppose, but years ago they used an image of Arnold Schwarzenegger at his peak to demonstrate the horrors of this disease. The logo that went with the pic was something like, "Muscular Dystrophy can turn this man into a 97 pound weaking in X amount of time!"

Powerful stuff, imo.

And check out the logo behind Rick Valente in this days gone by shot:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/curt_james/Rx/rickvalente.jpg

It's been done before.

Someone already stated this somewhere but if the IFBB wants to change the perception of the sport then they need to hire a public relations firm. Thought I remember an interview though that might also explain why that will never happen. It was with Ryan Kennelly, if I'm not mistaken.

Kennelly was talking about Inzer and money and advertising, etc. Someone said that Inzer doesn't want Nike and adidas involved in the sport because that would wrest the big bucks from Inzer's wallet.

I suspect the same dynamic takes place with the IFBB. Right now they're the only game in town. Their major customer is teen to 20-something males. They want to maintain control of that income and want no part of a female demographic which could spin off into their own successful organization.

Or not.

Still, the WBF and the PDI both bit it and I see no challengers on the horizon. And if someone like Jim Manion - Chairman of the IFBB Professional League - says fbb is dying then, ladies, just maybe you're SOL. :(

[Curt James]

Seems like not only that, but perhaps get some women into the ranks of the "higher ups" as well.

Also, easier said than done. Of course, I also do not know if any women are there already.

Sandy Williamson, member of the NPC Board of Governors, IFBB official, and Women's Representative, much?

r3qDHErFdZc

I mean, what the hell is sparkle? Are we talking athletics or something else? Something else obviously.

Not good.

Bad.

[BadBoy]

I agree, but I would almost think that there's too much focus on trying to market and re-brand FBB and not enough focus on re-developing and modernizing the business models to allow female bodybuilding to flourish the way that most athletes like it to be. Once new business models are made and are sustainable, everything else, marketing, exposure, sponsorships, etc and so on will follow.

Will it be easy? Hell no.

What exactly are you trying to sell? Your onstage product has little to no value.

Why are you trying to convince people that promoters aren't making money from their shows? The current business model does work, which is why the bikini division was added.

[fitmomma3]

son OF A BITCH I just typed for like twenty minutes and when I went to post it was zapped cause I had to log back in! :( ugggg....

[fitmomma3]

maybe i'll try again later that wiped me lol

[Allifit]

how did we get from fbbing's struggle to a discussion of schmoes?

[Allifit]

What exactly are you trying to sell? Your onstage product has little to no value.

Why are you trying to convince people that promoters aren't making money from their shows? The current business model does work, which is why the bikini division was added.

We're discussing the struggle that fbb is undergoing....granted obviously what is in place currently works for some divisions of the sport, bikini included, but MIGHT not be working at its best for fbbing...

[MsGuns]

maybe i'll try again later that wiped me lol

dang i really wanted to see what you typed...

[Curt James]

how did we get from fbbing's struggle to a discussion of schmoes?

What?

[Mufasa]

how did we get from fbbing's struggle to a discussion of schmoes?

This is another tough one, Alli:

Almost ALL Sports that I'm aware of have "groupies" that follow them. No one ever seems to need to talk about the fact that NBA, NHL, NASCAR and professional baseball players...hell...even the bowling and poker Pros... are "hooking up" after and before almost every game, home or away! And the huge gay following of male bodybuilders is hardly ever brought up in any appreciable way.


I think the "schmoes" represent yet another "double standard" when it comes to judging the Female Bodybuiders. In other words, when someone wants to bring up all that is wrong with female bodybuilding, "schmoes" almost always come up as being one reason "why".


My guess is that when huge sums of money are generated (like the other sports I mentioned), the "groupies" are looked at as more of a "perk" than a negative...and often are not discussed at all.


Mufasa

[Allifit]

This is another tough one, Alli:

Almost ALL Sports that I'm aware of have "groupies" that follow them. No one ever seems to need to talk about the fact that NBA, NHL, NASCAR and professional baseball players...hell...even the bowling and poker Pros... are "hooking up" after and before almost every game, home or away! And the huge gay following of male bodybuilders is hardly ever brought up in any appreciable way.


I think the "schmoes" represent yet another "double standard" when it comes to judging the Female Bodybuiders. In other words, when someone wants to bring up all that is wrong with female bodybuilding, "schmoes" almost always come up as being one reason "why".


My guess is that when huge sums of money are generated (like the other sports I mentioned), the "groupies" are looked at as more of a "perk" than a negative...and often are not discussed at all.


Mufasa

REALLY good point. REALLY good.:beerbang: I personally dont use the term schmoe. I find it deragatory and nasty to many of the fans of fbbing, figure and fitness....

[Mufasa]

REALLY good point. REALLY good.:beerbang: I personally dont use the term schmoe. I find it deragatory and nasty to many of the fans of fbbing, figure and fitness....

Agree, Alli.

I'm personally a "fan" ...and have never had, nor desired, a "session" of any kind. Those things are cool for others, so I don't knock them. They just aren't my thing.

(Now..."Allifit" could make a Brother change his mind about that! :p JUST KIDDING, Alli!)


Mufasa

[Curt James]

This is another tough one, Alli:

Almost ALL Sports that I'm aware of have "groupies" that follow them. No one ever seems to need to talk about the fact that NBA, NHL, NASCAR and professional baseball players...hell...even the bowling and poker Pros... are "hooking up" after and before almost every game, home or away! And the huge gay following of male bodybuilders is hardly ever brought up in any appreciable way.


I think the "schmoes" represent yet another "double standard" when it comes to judging the Female Bodybuiders. In other words, when someone wants to bring up all that is wrong with female bodybuilding, "schmoes" almost always come up as being one reason "why".


My guess is that when huge sums of money are generated (like the other sports I mentioned), the "groupies" are looked at as more of a "perk" than a negative...and often are not discussed at all.


Mufasa


REALLY good point. REALLY good.:beerbang: I personally dont use the term schmoe. I find it deragatory and nasty to many of the fans of fbbing, figure and fitness....

You may not use it, however a large segment of Rx and MD is wont to toss it around without concern. The TB was brought back online and the first thing I read was negative posts about those who contributed.

I mentioned the term only by way of stating one possible reason why fbb may have difficulty getting money behind them: Men seemingly find it easier to promote women built like you versus women built more muscularly.

And, unfortunately, I strongly suspect that huge sums of money will never be generated by this sport unless some of the aforementioned events take place. Positive publicity, a change in the steroid laws, and a change in the IFBB leadership.

Fat chance that.

[MsGuns]

So whats the difference between a schmoe and a fan?
I dont see the guys who raised the money as schmoe's those are fans...

Schmoe's to me are those that send the nasty emails to me.
A Fan is one who appreciates my hard work...they support me thru coming to my shows, webcam, and sponsoring me directly.

[Allifit]

Agree, Alli.

I'm personally a "fan" ...and have never had, nor desired, a "session" of any kind. Those things are cool for others, so I don't knock them. They just aren't my thing.

(Now..."Allifit" could make a Brother change his mind about that! :p JUST KIDDING, Alli!)

What people need to understand is that the word 'fan' comes from 'fanatic'... and in general encompasses all manners of "fans"- from the britney spears groupie who camps out 4 days in advance for tickets to the girl who gets the CD as a Christmas present and listens to it a few times and decides its decent. There are people who love female muscle and are attracted to it, and there are those who spend hundreds on it, who cannot get enough of it, who think about it and fantasize about it etc. Those are the extremes, but those tend to be the people termed "Schmoes". To me, they're all fans, on one level or another.

Do I think some of it is freaky? Of course. Does some of it make me uncomfortable? Hell yes. Do some "fans" make me freak out cause they're SOOO into female muscle- oh you better believe it. lol. But irregardless, this sport, like any other sport, functions on the backs of fans. We, as women in bodybuilding, and as men in bodybuilding, make our living and are able to compete BECAUSE the sport has a fanbase. Mocking those fans or finding nasty terms for them (to me) isn't condusive at all.

[Curt James]

What peo(snip)

How did we get from fbbing's struggle to a discussion of schmoes?

[Mufasa]

Crazy me wanted to see what the "official" definition was, Alli!

Schmoe:

A stupid or obnoxious person.

(From Yiddish shmok, for penis, fool).


An interesting observation is the "respect"? that the male Bodybuilders have for their gay fans. I can't recall any Top Level Bodybuilder showing disrespect for that portion of their fanbase, even on a Forum.

Fans are the driving force behind all Sports.



Mufasa

[Curt James]

So whats the difference between a schmoe and a fan?

Imo, it's pure semantics. What's a fan to you might be a schmoe to someone else and a groupie to yet another person.

The point I was trying - apparently unsuccesfully - to get across is that the people who might provide consistent financial backing to fbb may, unfortunately, also avoid such actions in order to not have to deal with the clear stigma associated with highly muscular women.

Not me, to be sure. I'm of the George Thorogood mindset. How's it go, I like 'em small, I like 'em tall, I like 'em all.

No more talk of the s word. I regret mentioning it. It was not intended as the focus of my initial post.

Any expected or anticipated discussion was hopefully to consider VARIOUS reasons promoters and sponsors are neglecting fbb.

[Tre]

Schmoes. Fucking. Rule.

:beerbang:

That is all.

[Allifit]

The point I was trying - apparently unsuccesfully - to get across is that the people who might provide consistent financial backing to fbb may, unfortunately, also avoid such actions in order to not have to deal with the clear stigma associated with highly muscular women.

Any expected or anticipated discussion was hopefully to consider VARIOUS reasons promoters and sponsors are neglecting fbb.
I understand... I just wouldnt get why the "types of fans" fbbing attracts would deter promoters and sponsors. Male bbing attracts gay men like hornets with equal amounts of session work, webcamming, etc following in its wake. While fan types may be an inclusive factor I dont feel its the deciding factor....

[Allifit]

Schmoes. Fucking. Rule.

:beerbang:

That is all.
Fans RULE. Schmoes included :)


hi Tre!:wavey:

[Mufasa]

I understand... I just wouldnt get why the "types of fans" fbbing attracts would deter promoters and sponsors. Male bbing attracts gay men like hornets with equal amounts of session work, webcamming, etc following in its wake. While fan types may be an inclusive factor I dont feel its the deciding factor....

Agree! (In a lot less words than me, Alli! :D)

That's the "double standard" that I was talking about.

I personally think that the issue of the "type of fans" simply becomes an issue that detracts from the core issue of improving FBB sponsorship and support.


Mufasa

[Northman]

More skin =)

[K-Max]

Agree! (In a lot less words than me, Alli! :D)

That's the "double standard" that I was talking about.

I personally think that the issue of the "type of fans" simply becomes an issue that detracts from the core issue of improving FBB sponsorship and support.


Mufasa

I totally agree. Other sports or entertainment coin their own terms for the hardcore fan but I don't think they have a term like schmoe that can have so much influence. Though... that does give me an idea for a spoof. I should probably do one of those Apple (computer) commercials where you have two guys and a "I'm a Fan and I'm a Schmoe" type of opening. lol. Schmoes aren't -that- bad are they?

I think eventually as time goes on and people get used to women with bigger and bigger muscles and children grow up seeing girls with bigger muscles as the norm, these issues will become moot. But it will take a while.

[Curt James]

I understand... I just wouldnt get why the "types of fans" fbbing attracts would deter promoters and sponsors.

Not what I meant. Rather that the potential sponsor or promoter would be identified AS that type of fan or associated with a sport/body type that is perceived by the general public as too extreme.

It would deter a local church from sponsoring the local sex toy party not only because of the types of people who purchase or are fans of those toys but also because they'd rather not be publicly associated with those products.

Likewise certain potential sponsors and fbb.

"These athletes are juiced up. I'm not having her as the face (or biceps) of my company XYZ, Inc."

If a formerly overweight figure competitor could hook up with Jenny Craig or Weight Watchers, etc., as their spokesmodel then perhaps that chain might sponsor a show.

I mean if the company's customers would respond positively to the effects of bodybuilding in combination with whatever eating plan, what have you, there was involved.

This sport could definitely be marketed. It's a God damned secret weapon that can transform bodies! The IFBB/NPC is clearly dropping the fbb ball.

Two cents.

[Curt James]

I think eventually as time goes on and people get used to women with bigger and bigger muscles and children grow up seeing girls with bigger muscles as the norm, these issues will become moot. But it will take a while.

The Apple commercial spoof sounds very funny. :)

But what I left above is a no go, imo.

Paula Bircumshaw was on the Ms. International stage 20 years ago. And Bev Francis first competed on a Ms. Olympia stage 10 years before that.

Sorry to say, but time has already gone on and, yes, it has been a while.

What's your expected time frame?

This will never be a moot point given the current approach or handling of its female athletes by the NPC.

Fbb are treated as second-class citizens so far as magazine coverage and prize winnings go and now they're adding bikini to the mix?

Less attention to sport and more to T and A.

Not good.

Bad.

[K-Max]

Time frame... yeah.. looks like we'll have to find vampires or some sort of immortality potions.

[Curt James]

Time frame... yeah.. looks like we'll have to find vampires or some sort of immortality potions.

Iris Kyle has a grand total of one, ONE frickin cover on a bodybuilding magazine! A copy of the NPC News from back in 1998. GTFO! :mad:

Scroll down and see how many Cory Everson had:

http://musclememory.com/show.php?a=Everson,+Cory&g=1

Never mind. FORTY-SEVEN!

Female Bodybuilding and Strength & Health have both folded since that time (between March 1984 and February 2008), but M&F, Flex, IronMan, MMI, and MD are still around.

And I believe Women's Physique World still exists, at least online.

...

Yurp! http://www.wpw.net/ :beerbang:

Why don't those mags have women bodybuilders on their covers these days?


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/curt_james/Rx/cory_iris.jpg

[sweetjane57]

Iris Kyle has a grand total of one, ONE frickin cover on a bodybuilding magazine! A copy of the NPC News from back in 1998. GTFO! :mad:

Scroll down and see how many Cory Everson had:

http://musclememory.com/show.php?a=Everson,+Cory&g=1

Never mind. FORTY-SEVEN!

Female Bodybuilding and Strength & Health have both folded since that time (between March 1984 and February 2008), but M&F, Flex, IronMan, MMI, and MD are still around.

And I believe Women's Physique World still exists, at least online.

...

Yurp! http://www.wpw.net/ :beerbang:

Why don't those mags have women bodybuilders on their covers these days?



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/curt_james/Rx/cory_iris.jpg

understood. Of course the GENERAL PUBLIC would find the "NOW" abnormal. BUT, they are BODYBUILDING magazines!!!!!!!! This is my point! Those who buy the mags are the ones who have a clue about the sport(well, THE MAJORITY). I do have my opinions about the sport of FBB, and where it has gone, but that is not the discussion right now. HOW I WOULD IMROVE IT, is. Giving FBB more magazine coverage would help, a great deal. I do NOT mean ad sponsorship either.....IMO, "the market'ables' can have their ad space! Lets have some FBB's start telling their stories/journeys, so that those few who are CLUELESS can actually READ about the hard work that goes into achieving such an accomplishment. I'm sick of the "all steroid" stereotyping!!!!!!! The GENERAL PUBLIC need to realize that it is not ALL steroids, for crying out loud, FIGURE is full of the sh*t too, maybe they should start printing those facts! UGGGHHHHHHHHH, it just aggravates me(the whole "not marketable" thing, F the general public)! :mad:


IMO:
I also think that somehow there could be a "medium", so to speak. As contradicting as it may sound......there are PLENTY of FBB's who can grace the cover of a magazine(which would make US happy) and still be "marketable" to the them(GENERAL PUBLIC)! and there are plenty more, just first to come to mind...

[BadBoy]

I totally agree. Other sports or entertainment coin their own terms for the hardcore fan but I don't think they have a term like schmoe that can have so much influence. Though... that does give me an idea for a spoof. I should probably do one of those Apple (computer) commercials where you have two guys and a "I'm a Fan and I'm a Schmoe" type of opening. lol. Schmoes aren't -that- bad are they?

I think eventually as time goes on and people get used to women with bigger and bigger muscles and children grow up seeing girls with bigger muscles as the norm, these issues will become moot. But it will take a while.
Schmoe.

[tammyp]

lets get back on topic pllleaaaz! the schmoe thing is so old.

[Allifit]

lets get back on topic pllleaaaz! the schmoe thing is so old.
amen:bowdown:

[Curt James]

What exactly are you trying to sell? Your onstage product has little to no value.

Bodybuilding is an activity - a product - with tremendous value.

Women spend how much each year on diet products? If anyone knows how to manipulate macros it's bodybuilders.

Weight training, pumping iron, bodybuilding definitely has an incredibly positive impact on body composition.

If fbb is indeed suffering a slow death then one option to revitalize the sport would be to award higher placings to more eye-pleasing athletes.

The Arnold Amateur is one example where the less "hardcore" physique was awarded the top prize.

The naturally heavier muscled women as well as AAS-assisted women would still be encouraged to compete but they wouldn't place. (Some encouragement, huh?)

Regardless of that insanity, the greater goal (from my perspective) of introducing the sport to a larger (and, sadly, fatter/unhealthier) audience could be achieved by rewarding "lesser" athletes, thereby assuring additional fans and participants by way of the "Oh, I want to look like HER!" response rather than the "Oh, gross!" Reaction which is more typically heard. :(


Why are you trying to convince people that promoters aren't making money from their shows? The current business model does work, which is why the bikini division was added.

The promoters are certainly having a tougher time these days than in previous years.

And the business model in place needs to service the sport of bodybuilding and athletes who practice it versus hot babes who haven't touched a dumbbell, imo.

The NPC/IFBB is clearly stating that T and A (bikini) is what they're selling rather than muscles (fbb).

That's a smart financial choice in the short term. Bikini will get people to the show.

But it's a terrible long-term approach. At least from a "responsibility" perspective. Here you have a sport - in female bodybuilding - that can literally change the human form and shape for the better and their focus is on fleeting beauty and curves.

Bodybuilding has longevity or lifelong application, especially when compared to an activity like bikini which will fade quickly.

Those bikini competitors will probably not be standing on stage at age 50.

And Betty Pariso will smile when those bikini "athletes" ask her about the weights to help them improve their weakening bodies.

Retool and revitalize women's physique competition by turning back the clock to the Anja Langer look. Draw in the new audience and fresh athletes. Keep the diesel competitors as there will always be that niche market.

But move the sport of fbb forward by going with the "smaller and prettier" but still well-muscled fbb over the hyper muscular athlete.

[GirlyMuscle]

Trying to make female bodybuilding marketable to the general public is like trying to market Playboy to gays. THEY AREN'T INTERESTED. So why do we worry about it? WHy try to get them to accept it? Bodybuidling isn't for the general public. It's for us...bodybuilders!

[Curt James]

Trying to make female bodybuilding marketable to the general public is like trying to market Playboy to gays. THEY AREN'T INTERESTED. So why do we worry about it? WHy try to get them to accept it? Bodybuidling isn't for the general public. It's for us...bodybuilders!

But bodybuilding is for everyone. Yes, competitive bodybuilding is a calling - Lenda was called by her insane quads and V taper, however that shouldn't be the focus at this time.

Did you read Manion's comment? Did you listen to Ruth's YouTube? Fbb is going lights out.

A paradigm shift is necessary for the sport to survive.

Or not.

Either way, this isn't about Playboy or homosexuals. It's about revitalizing women's bodybuilding.

[Curt James]

lets get back on topic pllleaaaz! the schmoe thing is so old.


amen:bowdown:

Perhaps a contribution towards that topic would be appropriate. What would you do if you had that Hermione Granger or Harry Potter magic wand?

What would you do if you were Jim Manion (http://www.ifbbpro.com/features/jim-manion-chairman-ifbb-professional-league/) or Sandy Williamson (http://www.ifbbpro.com/features/sandy-williamson-npc-and-ifbb-pro-league-official/)?

[Curt James]

i think bbing needs more magazine coverage, more shows and more personal sponsorship.

flex mag had 15 pages of nationals coverage and not a mention of the women. how about the same respect as the men?

Where's the female version of Ron Harris? He is a go-getter who writes and writes and writes! Is there a female equivalent or any writer who puts in the time at the keyboard or on the phone creating articles showcasing the women of the sport?

Shawn Ray mentioned elsewhere that women need to get out there and promote shows. Flex and Shawn have both put on shows. Lenda has her show scheduled for later this year - http://www.lendamurraybodybuilding.com/ - and I've heard from that Dayana Cadeau has a show planned for October of this year.

It's up to the individual athlete or some agent/friend/supporter to solicit those personal sponsorships, right? How do you market yourself, tammyp?

I visited your profile and you have nothing there by way of contact info or web presence. I guess a PM or Visitor Message would work for anyone interested in speaking with you about sponsorship.

So far as respect goes, I believe there is respect for the ladies but this is obviously a male dominated enterprise. Men run the shows, men judge the shows, men being manly men. D'OH!

Seriously, it's an uphill battle for the ladies in a testosterone-filled patriarchal sport. I do wish the women of the sport the very best. And though I'm advocating that paradigm shift, I'm all about the Annie. Each individual should be allowed to achieve their ultimate physique without consideration of any judging panel.

[GirlyMuscle]

Calm down Curt.

Of course, it's not about gays and Playboy. I was making a comparison. Come on Curt. You know that.

Bodybuilding is for everyone. Competitive bodybuilding is a completely different ball of wax. In a day when women still fear "getting too bulky" from lifting weights and even a figure competitor is too much for them to swallow, do you really think you'll sway them with the likes of ANY of the IFBB pros....or even national level? Mainstream people do not like FBBing. Hell, most bbing men don't support it.

Niche sport. Niche lifestyle. And we complain that it's not marketable to the public. I dunno about anyone else but I don't do this for the public's approval. And yeah...pro female bodybuilding, with only three pros shows does look like FBBing is dying out. Go to a national level show. There's more than 3 or 4 FBBers. If it can survive on the national level why not the pro level? I don't think fbbing is dying out. I think Pro shows are.

Even if there was never one more female show, women would still bodybuild.

[Curt James]

Calm down Curt.

Of course, it's not about gays and Playboy. I was making a comparison. Come on Curt. You know that.


Calm as Hindu cows, Erin. ;) I simply disagreed with your comparison.

Although I seem to recall freaking out that one time with Sledge, eh? :o

[Curt James]

Bodybuilding is for everyone. Competitive bodybuilding is a completely different ball of wax. In a day when women still fear "getting too bulky" from lifting weights and even a figure competitor is too much for them to swallow, do you really think you'll sway them with the likes of ANY of the IFBB pros....or even national level? Mainstream people do not like FBBing. Hell, most bbing men don't support it.

Niche sport. Niche lifestyle. And we complain that it's not marketable to the public. I dunno about anyone else but I don't do this for the public's approval. And yeah...pro female bodybuilding, with only three pros shows does look like FBBing is dying out. Go to a national level show. There's more than 3 or 4 FBBers. If it can survive on the national level why not the pro level? I don't think fbbing is dying out. I think Pro shows are.

Even if there was never one more female show, women would still bodybuild.

To the first bolded, yes.

Shifting the paradigm - moving towards a more aesthetic female physique (again, similar to an Anja Langer) - would, I'm guessing, go a long way towards allaying those "getting too bulky" concerns.

To the second, that's not the goal, though, is it?

[GirlyMuscle]

Calm as Hindu cows, Erin. ;) I simply disagreed with your comparison.

Although I seem to recall freaking out that one time with Sledge, eh? :o
I was making a comparison of a group of people who have NO interest in something you want them to accept. Mainstream people find fbbing repulsive. My own family thinks it's weird. They support me, but they don't like the look any more than Joe Schm...on the street does. If MY friends and family can't be swayed how do you propose to sway strangers into liking something they don't?

And freaking out on Sledge? I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Curt James]

(snip)
Mainstream people find fbbing repulsive.
(snip)
And freaking out on Sledge? I have no idea what you're talking about.

Point to the person who found Rachel McLish repulsive.

And the Sledge comment was re assuming I wasn't calm. I was exaggerating for humor when I said "freaked out."

I recall disagreeing with his post in some thread. You were there, but your memory is apparently as complete as mine. :beerbang:

[Carolyn Bryant]

maybe i'll try again later that wiped me lol

Hey fitmomma3. I have to meet you. Could you send me a private msg. I have to talk to you about a post you made about haters.

[Curt James]

son OF A BITCH I just typed for like twenty minutes and when I went to post it was zapped cause I had to log back in! :( ugggg....

I hate when that happens. You type for that much time and it's vaporized. :mad:

Type for one minute and create a brief recap?

Or type for another 20 minutes but this time copy the entire text before you click Submit Reply!

:beerbang:

[GirlyMuscle]

To the first bolded, yes.

Shifting the paradigm - moving towards a more aesthetic female physique (again, similar to an Anja Langer) - would, I'm guessing, go a long way towards allaying those "getting too bulky" concerns.

To the second, that's not the goal, though, is it?But what does "more aesthetic" mean? To the every day person figure competitors are too much. I, for one, do not want to see female bodybuilding going backwards and I believe that telling women to "tone it down" is doing just that. Imagine telling Iris Kyle she needs to take it down a few notches to maybe...Anja Langer style.

And of course, the goal is not to eliminate future fbb shows. Again, I was making a point that female bodybuilding is alive and well. It does exist outside of the shows and the stage.

[Curt James]

But what does "more aesthetic" mean? To the every day person figure competitors are too much. I, for one, do not want to see female bodybuilding going backwards and I believe that telling women to "tone it down" is doing just that. Imagine telling Iris Kyle she needs to take it down a few notches to maybe...Anja Langer style.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/curt_james/Rx/anja_langer-1.jpg

Iris would not be expected to emulate Anja Langer's physique. Iris would be out. A new paradigm would involve a whole new cast of characters who would suit the aesthetic sense of a new audience. I'm talking about an entire rework, reset, square-one rebuild.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/curt_james/Rx/RachelMcLish2.jpg

Does she look like she has been spray painted? Look at her face. Sucked down? Check out her waist. It's tight, trim. What do you think her cycle was? I'm guessing zip. Might be wrong, but I'll bet she spent more on Aqua Net (http://api.ning.com/files/pfYh9UYbQfSmr*Oy8G43Ff4K3lsWoHmExABWvTjLo4o_/Aquanet.jpg) than Anavar.

And it's not a step back to recognize that one fbb show per year is not enough. Perhaps offering the encouragement for some of the figure athletes to compete in bodybuilding without the idea that they'll be out of their league would be a positive move. They'll be the league. That shift from ultra muscular women who are viewed negatively by the general public to the physique very reminiscent of the Rachel McLish or Claudia Montemaggi of days gone by.

kC6SLmb9SvY

Phil freaking Donahue. Not an utterance of "Ewww!" from the crowd.

N2qNwi5GK24

I love her physique and her routine was insane.

All I'm talking about is one way, however unlikely its implementation, that female bodybuilding could be returned to significance so far as participation by great numbers of women and, absolutely, being popularized in the mainstream.


And of course, the goal is not to eliminate future fbb shows. Again, I was making a point that female bodybuilding is alive and well. It does exist outside of the shows and the stage.

There are other organizations. The NPC and the IFBB are the largest organizations, however they're not the only organizations.

Do I want to see Iris Kyle working at the library instead of posing in Vegas? No. (Although I do love books!)

And I think women built similar to Annie Rivieccio are amazing.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/curt_james/Rx/annierivieccio2.jpg

But rewarding a sleeker group of athletes wouldn't do much harm to the sport, imo. As much as I protest when people say that bodybuilding is not a sport, it's obvious that there's an incredible entertainment aspect to the activity as well. By shifting the performers from the beefy to the beauty (though many of the beefy women are certainly beautiful) the IFBB and the NPC may see a resurgence in the number of competitors as well as a bump in the number of sponsors who come forward to offer their support for female bodybuildng.

Two cents.

[GirlyMuscle]

That's sad, Curt. Bascially, you're agreeing to the old...."be good girls but don't be too good."

[Curt James]

That's sad, Curt. Bascially, you're agreeing to the old...."be good girls but don't be too good."

Wrong.

Read my posts. Specifically, these bits:

By shifting the performers from the beefy to the beauty (though many of the beefy women are certainly beautiful) the IFBB and the NPC may see a resurgence in the number of competitors as well as a bump in the number of sponsors who come forward to offer their support for female bodybuilding.

Seriously, it's an uphill battle for the ladies in a testosterone-filled patriarchal sport. I do wish the women of the sport the very best. And though I'm advocating that paradigm shift, I'm all about the Annie. Each individual should be allowed to achieve their ultimate physique without consideration of any judging panel.

The naturally heavier muscled women as well as AAS-assisted women would still be encouraged to compete but they wouldn't place. (Some encouragement, huh?)

Regardless of that insanity, the greater goal (from my perspective) of introducing the sport to a larger (and, sadly, fatter/unhealthier) audience could be achieved by rewarding "lesser" athletes, thereby assuring additional fans and participants by way of the "Oh, I want to look like HER!" response rather than the "Oh, gross!" Reaction which is more typically heard.

/quote

In essence, it's promoting the sport in a way that may best ensure its survival. It has nothing to do with limiting how "good" a person may become.

I'm recommending treating women's bodybuilding as an entertainment experience marketed to the masses in order to maintain its viability as an activity rather than treating it as an extreme sport for an unappreciative niche audience.

[tammyp]

[B]MY FRIGGIN GOD ! ENOUGH!


you have more opinions curt than the women this effects. how about taking 5 and relax? I would hate to close this thread, but I will.:(

and my website is listed in my profile FYI>

[Curt James]

how about taking 5 and relax? I would hate to close this thread, but I will.:(

Hey, I thought Erin and I were simply having a discussion.


and my website is listed in my profile FYI>

So it is.

Missed that tab.

[fitmomma3]

OK so the question is what do you think could improve ALL of the divisions for women (not just BB) so I have opinions on ALL. I think they go hand in hand since physiques can be filtered and interchanged between divisions depending on criteria/standards and personal goals.

For starters I believe that each division should have an IFBB PRO REP for each division... a CURRENT competitor who would be the PERFECT EXAMPLE - the "set standard" to strive for in that division... someone competitors can contact to ask any competition related questions, such as set criteria, expectations, appropriate training methods/techniques/diets even SPECIFIC trainers (not saying you can call with diet questions.. but a point in the right direction of who or where to go for appropriate info) - this to me is VERY IMPORTANT... far to many mislead competitors spend tons of time and money only to end up on stage looking like fools because their so called "gurus" (or sometimes just their meat head boyfriends) gave them horrible information and preparation... this IMO has a horrible affect on the sport... people have jaded experiences only to never return and badmouth the sport to as many as possible, not to mention the havoc it can wreak on their bodies and spirits (everything from bad supplementation to wrong presentation). I can't tell you how many times I've been at shows where their is an older trainer in the audience pissed as hell as he yells "that's not how you do a side pose", because he hasn't been to a show in over five years and had no clue they have changed the posing and just spent the last three months training his competitor how to pose the old school way and now he's standing up there like a dear in headlights because the head judge keeps yelling "heels together!" and "drop your back arm".... anyways you get the idea...


so examples would be (and I'm just shooting out names)
BB - Debi Bramwell
Figure - Jenn Gates
Fitness - Jen Hendershot

Now BIKINI... oh ho ho bikini... THE NAME alone needs to be changed IMO, if it were at least something like sports model it may deem a little more respect. Plus if the idea is that they are the "MOST marketable" mainstream models make them prove this on stage showing tone and FIT, sexy bodies... they could add a sportswear round - where competitors choose outfits to show their creativity, their personality and even more of a "fitness look" that could be portrayed in a fitness magazine... other federations already do this. If you are going to have a bikini division whether or not we agree at least do it up to it's full potential... make it more creative then just a hooters/bar bikini show.

ok onto figure...
my suggestions (as I'm sure many of you have seen posted before)
**2 piece - one in plain suits with no accessories - 4 mandatory open handed poses (front bi, back bi, abs and thigh and side chest) - this makes for more of a stronger physique comparison...

**And one round in our suit (2 piece) of choice DECKED OUT (bling and/color and all)! - Mandatory relaxed poses and HALF T stage walk. This gives you more stage time and allows you to show your presence off even more.

**I also believe a 60 - 90 sec posing routine round (BB style) should be added as well... this will additionally allow competitors to showcase their physiques/strong points, show their creativity, their personalities and provide entertainment to the audience.

Now I know what everyone is thinking these shows would run three days with all of this criteria... the idea of taking away the one piece was to save time... BUT ADDED criteria like this will sift out A LOT OF COMPETITORS... knowing they have to pose, prepare a routine, and put in all the extra time and effort will weed out many who just show up the day of the competition.

Now the idea is more competitors equals more money... why would we want less competitors? And to me the answer is simple (this is where I believe a lot went wrong within the industry) this will enforce more QUALITY competitors over QUANTITY of competitors. When BB was at its high points it did not have all the divisions or herds of competitors we have now yet it was thriving beautifully because the QUALITY of competitors was there. More criteria, equals more preparation, more credibility, more respect, and hopefully this equates to what seems to be missing for women in this sport right now.

OK Fitness... now this may surprise some people but hear me out fully as I believe it can only help the lacking numbers in this division... I think that ALL tumbling should be eliminated from the routines... I have utmost respect for gymnasts but I think that it is unnecessary on a BB stage. One of the main reasons many do not compete in fitness or retire and switch to figure is because of the tumbling...the risk of injury to tumble when at low levels of body fat, depleted, dehydrated and often tumbling on hard wood floors that have absolutely no give is very high and many are not willing to risk it. There are MANY ways to showcase athleticism, strength, flexibility, dance, AND PERFORM your ass off without tumbling... no you do not HAVE to tumble but taking it out all together evens the playing field and greatly lowers the risk of injury, not to mention the hours of gymnastics practice many of these competitors must perform. It is not to water down or make fitness easier but to take out the biggest element of injury and force competitors to rely on PERFORMING, creativity and and all the other assets listed above.

As for BB - lets start with the routines alone... AGAIN the routine round is a bodybuilders time to show their creativity, to show their personality and A lot of people just wing it that day... this makes for a miserably boring time. I say either only have the top 5 do their routines, OR every show should have a ROUTINE PRIZE (even it's like $100) , that way it gives guys and girls an incentive to actually put some time into the routine. They are suppose to entertain the crowd and draw in people for the sport and the night show and I think adding some incentive would help people work harder on them and make for a better night show... people come at night for a show, GIVE THEM A SHOW... oh yeah and bring back props nothing crazy but come on it's not that big a deal and its fun.

Now as far as marketability... this is hairy... because let's remember just how many beautiful muscular girls are vying for these coveted spots, be it sponsorships, magazine covers, booth work whatever it is. THERE are UBERS and UBERS! The amount is astonishing and the bottom line is like everyone says over and over YOU HAVE to promote yourself and go for every opportunity like wild... we need SPARKS of FBB with lots of charisma... the only way FBBs can become more marketable (and this is WITHIN the industry none of that mainstream pipedream stuff :rolleyes: but within our industry) is to PROVE they are marketable. This means getting professional comp cards, professional portfolios, a professional resume and I cannot express enough the word PROFESSIONAL... this means not the amateurish typical cut off jeans and sports bra on a hotel bed picture that has become all too familiar in this industry. This is a big problem with what may turn off many from promoting the women in this industry, a "fan" (and by fan yes I'm thinking schmoe but we'll just say fan for the sake of argument) but a fan with a camera does not a photographer make. It doesn't mean you can't shoot with someone to get paid but really be choosy in which pictures and photographers you use for your promotion. IMAGE IS EVERYTHING... you need versatility - physique, weight room, off season, casual, lingerie, headshots... really put effort into what you present. I know many bodybuilders who take offense to being called a fitness model as if its beneath them and IMO this mentality has to be changed. You cannot walk around and say "I'm not a fitness model I'm a BB" because if you want to be chosen for these opportunities you have to present yourself as a BB who can do fitness modeling... it doesn't mean you are any less of a BB. What you are onstage as a competitor and what your IMAGE is in the industry are two different things... have you ever seen a BB cover of women in full out contest shape? NO and there is a reason for that. Bottom line is promote YOURSELF. Promote your look, your personality, your knowledge, your experience.

And to address a little the whole schmoe issue. You do want to promote your fanbase (prove you have support)... but if it only consists of males who have a fetish for female muscle what does that say about you as a rep for a company... these are not the people buying products, these may not even be the people buying mags, this should not be IMO your main focus of support... its great to have fans, but male and female fans IN THE SPORT go a long way... people that ask you questions on training, on competing, on products these are the fanbases that show companies you are a GREAT REP for the sport. Not to say male fetish fans are useless because many have said they receive much monetary value from this particular fan group but it is not the focus considered when trying to promote yourself as a rep for the sport IMO.

Ok I've watched the Hannah Montanna movie, played outside all day and had to kill a spider halfway through so if it doesn't make sense sorry lol

OH and last but not least I think all divisions NEED MORE SET STANDARDS and criteria in judging this is just an example of something I made up for figure...

When you step off stage there should be a sheet from each judge with exact criteria on a scale from 1 to 10
For figure... it should look like this. IMO - they are in order of importance... and I explain why the criteria to me is important

Muscular development (development of every muscle group, slight hardness and fullness to the muscles, not an extreme grainy hardness like that of a bodybuilder)

Conditioning (low body fat, no visible excess fat, but not extreme leanness like that of a BB) score 1-10

Symmetry - Head to toe front to back (this is self-explanatory)

Stage presence - Confidence, poise, posing, walking, smiling, overall presentation

Suit choices - Did they compliment the body? Where they flattering colors? This makes every competitor accountable for their suit choice - if you buy one last minute thats a horrible color or cut on you, then you should be penalized - hey, it's happened to me before but it is fair.

Total Feminine Package - (Hair, make-up, jewelery, shoes, and accessories) - was it flattering? was it glamorous? Does it personify a sexy fitness model standard, in a feminine stylish way? Keep in mind this is figure, not bodybuilding, this division was created for this additional criteria

Facial Beauty and skincare and coloring Again its added criteria for figure, it goes along with total package, girls who thinks just because you are in figure you do not need stage color on should be penalized just like a bodybuilder... do your homework and you would know... also this ensures that people exfoliate and moisturize properly and do not get on stage with cracking streaking peeling tan.

And anything that is EXTREME in any of the categories is an automatic one.

[fitmomma3]

Hey fitmomma3. I have to meet you. Could you send me a private msg. I have to talk to you about a post you made about haters.
I'm assuming you mean my old vent thread... I'll pm you yeah I was probably just full of piss and vinegar and dieting lol

[AnglicanBeachParty]

i keep asking God to drop a shitload of dough on me
cuz i truely believe in the sport of womens bodybuilding

Same here, same here.

Regarding FBBs on magazine covers ... I remember (and still have 'em, too!) several (other than, obviously, WPW and the like) from back in the 1980s and 1990s. The publishers can probably be trusted to figure out what sells the most magazines, and apparently (for the general-purpose, quasi-mainstream BB mags) it is not FBBs. In fact, I think I recall reading something by Bob Kennedy (MuscleMag) about how he sells almost twice as many news stand copies of his magazine if Arnold is on the cover. Hence, he has had dozens of Arnold covers.

There are an awful lot of niche magazines out there today in other areas (e.g., motorsports). Even after hearing from publishers that the economic model won't work for a Female Bodybuilding-only print magazine, I find it difficult to believe. I was talking about this last week with a FBB who works at the gym where I work out. She told me I should just start up my own magazine. I don't think I'm capable of that, but I would certainly like to see someone do it.

Here's my simple-minded notion of why FBBs will never be fairly featured in mainstream BB mags. Bodybuilding magazines are bought by teenage males who want hyooge muscles (preferably by Friday night, thanks!), and funded largely buy hundreds of pages of (snake oil?) supplement ads. Most of those supplements are bought by naive young males hoping to look (again, hopefully by Friday night) like their favourite IFBB Pro (male) Bodybuilder. To me, this is the economic model of the mainstream BB mag.

I don't see why a separate "niche" FBB mag, designed to flourish under a different economic model, couldn't prosper.

[MsGuns]

OK so the question is what do you think could improve ALL of the divisions for women (not just BB) so I have opinions on ALL. I think they go hand in hand since physiques can be filtered and interchanged between divisions depending on criteria/standards and personal goals.

For starters I believe that each division should have an IFBB PRO REP for each division... a CURRENT competitor who would be the PERFECT EXAMPLE - the "set standard" to strive for in that division... someone competitors can contact to ask any competition related questions, such as set criteria, expectations, appropriate training methods/techniques/diets even SPECIFIC trainers (not saying you can call with diet questions.. but a point in the right direction of who or where to go for appropriate info) - this to me is VERY IMPORTANT... far to many mislead competitors spend tons of time and money only to end up on stage looking like fools because their so called "gurus" (or sometimes just their meat head boyfriends) gave them horrible information and preparation... this IMO has a horrible affect on the sport... people have jaded experiences only to never return and badmouth the sport to as many as possible, not to mention the havoc it can wreak on their bodies and spirits (everything from bad supplementation to wrong presentation). I can't tell you how many times I've been at shows where their is an older trainer in the audience pissed as hell as he yells "that's not how you do a side pose", because he hasn't been to a show in over five years and had no clue they have changed the posing and just spent the last three months training his competitor how to pose the old school way and now he's standing up there like a dear in headlights because the head judge keeps yelling "heels together!" and "drop your back arm".... anyways you get the idea...


so examples would be (and I'm just shooting out names)
BB - Debi Bramwell
Figure - Jenn Gates
Fitness - Jen Hendershot

Now BIKINI... oh ho ho bikini... THE NAME alone needs to be changed IMO, if it were at least something like sports model it may deem a little more respect. Plus if the idea is that they are the "MOST marketable" mainstream models make them prove this on stage showing tone and FIT, sexy bodies... they could add a sportswear round - where competitors choose outfits to show their creativity, their personality and even more of a "fitness look" that could be portrayed in a fitness magazine... other federations already do this. If you are going to have a bikini division whether or not we agree at least do it up to it's full potential... make it more creative then just a hooters/bar bikini show.

ok onto figure...
my suggestions (as I'm sure many of you have seen posted before)
**2 piece - one in plain suits with no accessories - 4 mandatory open handed poses (front bi, back bi, abs and thigh and side chest) - this makes for more of a stronger physique comparison...

**And one round in our suit (2 piece) of choice DECKED OUT (bling and/color and all)! - Mandatory relaxed poses and HALF T stage walk. This gives you more stage time and allows you to show your presence off even more.

**I also believe a 60 - 90 sec posing routine round (BB style) should be added as well... this will additionally allow competitors to showcase their physiques/strong points, show their creativity, their personalities and provide entertainment to the audience.

Now I know what everyone is thinking these shows would run three days with all of this criteria... the idea of taking away the one piece was to save time... BUT ADDED criteria like this will sift out A LOT OF COMPETITORS... knowing they have to pose, prepare a routine, and put in all the extra time and effort will weed out many who just show up the day of the competition.

Now the idea is more competitors equals more money... why would we want less competitors? And to me the answer is simple (this is where I believe a lot went wrong within the industry) this will enforce more QUALITY competitors over QUANTITY of competitors. When BB was at its high points it did not have all the divisions or herds of competitors we have now yet it was thriving beautifully because the QUALITY of competitors was there. More criteria, equals more preparation, more credibility, more respect, and hopefully this equates to what seems to be missing for women in this sport right now.

OK Fitness... now this may surprise some people but hear me out fully as I believe it can only help the lacking numbers in this division... I think that ALL tumbling should be eliminated from the routines... I have utmost respect for gymnasts but I think that it is unnecessary on a BB stage. One of the main reasons many do not compete in fitness or retire and switch to figure is because of the tumbling...the risk of injury to tumble when at low levels of body fat, depleted, dehydrated and often tumbling on hard wood floors that have absolutely no give is very high and many are not willing to risk it. There are MANY ways to showcase athleticism, strength, flexibility, dance, AND PERFORM your ass off without tumbling... no you do not HAVE to tumble but taking it out all together evens the playing field and greatly lowers the risk of injury, not to mention the hours of gymnastics practice many of these competitors must perform. It is not to water down or make fitness easier but to take out the biggest element of injury and force competitors to rely on PERFORMING, creativity and and all the other assets listed above.

As for BB - lets start with the routines alone... AGAIN the routine round is a bodybuilders time to show their creativity, to show their personality and A lot of people just wing it that day... this makes for a miserably boring time. I say either only have the top 5 do their routines, OR every show should have a ROUTINE PRIZE (even it's like $100) , that way it gives guys and girls an incentive to actually put some time into the routine. They are suppose to entertain the crowd and draw in people for the sport and the night show and I think adding some incentive would help people work harder on them and make for a better night show... people come at night for a show, GIVE THEM A SHOW... oh yeah and bring back props nothing crazy but come on it's not that big a deal and its fun.

Now as far as marketability... this is hairy... because let's remember just how many beautiful muscular girls are vying for these coveted spots, be it sponsorships, magazine covers, booth work whatever it is. THERE are UBERS and UBERS! The amount is astonishing and the bottom line is like everyone says over and over YOU HAVE to promote yourself and go for every opportunity like wild... we need SPARKS of FBB with lots of charisma... the only way FBBs can become more marketable (and this is WITHIN the industry none of that mainstream pipedream stuff :rolleyes: but within our industry) is to PROVE they are marketable. This means getting professional comp cards, professional portfolios, a professional resume and I cannot express enough the word PROFESSIONAL... this means not the amateurish typical cut off jeans and sports bra on a hotel bed picture that has become all too familiar in this industry. This is a big problem with what may turn off many from promoting the women in this industry, a "fan" (and by fan yes I'm thinking schmoe but we'll just say fan for the sake of argument) but a fan with a camera does not a photographer make. It doesn't mean you can't shoot with someone to get paid but really be choosy in which pictures and photographers you use for your promotion. IMAGE IS EVERYTHING... you need versatility - physique, weight room, off season, casual, lingerie, headshots... really put effort into what you present. I know many bodybuilders who take offense to being called a fitness model as if its beneath them and IMO this mentality has to be changed. You cannot walk around and say "I'm not a fitness model I'm a BB" because if you want to be chosen for these opportunities you have to present yourself as a BB who can do fitness modeling... it doesn't mean you are any less of a BB. What you are onstage as a competitor and what your IMAGE is in the industry are two different things... have you ever seen a BB cover of women in full out contest shape? NO and there is a reason for that. Bottom line is promote YOURSELF. Promote your look, your personality, your knowledge, your experience.

And to address a little the whole schmoe issue. You do want to promote your fanbase (prove you have support)... but if it only consists of males who have a fetish for female muscle what does that say about you as a rep for a company... these are not the people buying products, these may not even be the people buying mags, this should not be IMO your main focus of support... its great to have fans, but male and female fans IN THE SPORT go a long way... people that ask you questions on training, on competing, on products these are the fanbases that show companies you are a GREAT REP for the sport. Not to say male fetish fans are useless because many have said they receive much monetary value from this particular fan group but it is not the focus considered when trying to promote yourself as a rep for the sport IMO.

Ok I've watched the Hannah Montanna movie, played outside all day and had to kill a spider halfway through so if it doesn't make sense sorry lol

OH and last but not least I think all divisions NEED MORE SET STANDARDS and criteria in judging this is just an example of something I made up for figure...

When you step off stage there should be a sheet from each judge with exact criteria on a scale from 1 to 10
For figure... it should look like this. IMO - they are in order of importance... and I explain why the criteria to me is important

Muscular development (development of every muscle group, slight hardness and fullness to the muscles, not an extreme grainy hardness like that of a bodybuilder)

Conditioning (low body fat, no visible excess fat, but not extreme leanness like that of a BB) score 1-10

Symmetry - Head to toe front to back (this is self-explanatory)

Stage presence - Confidence, poise, posing, walking, smiling, overall presentation

Suit choices - Did they compliment the body? Where they flattering colors? This makes every competitor accountable for their suit choice - if you buy one last minute thats a horrible color or cut on you, then you should be penalized - hey, it's happened to me before but it is fair.

Total Feminine Package - (Hair, make-up, jewelery, shoes, and accessories) - was it flattering? was it glamorous? Does it personify a sexy fitness model standard, in a feminine stylish way? Keep in mind this is figure, not bodybuilding, this division was created for this additional criteria

Facial Beauty and skincare and coloring Again its added criteria for figure, it goes along with total package, girls who thinks just because you are in figure you do not need stage color on should be penalized just like a bodybuilder... do your homework and you would know... also this ensures that people exfoliate and moisturize properly and do not get on stage with cracking streaking peeling tan.

And anything that is EXTREME in any of the categories is an automatic one.

wow...good pts
now email that to Betty Pariso and Jim Manion...

[tammyp]

great points steph! and thanks for taking that kind of time to write that out.

i know betty is the bbing rep, jen h is the fitness, but who is the figure? anyone know?

[Mufasa]

...I don't see why a separate "niche" FBB mag, designed to flourish under a different economic model, couldn't prosper...

ABP:

It's been tried more than once...with the most "successful" PROBABLY being Steve Wennerstrom's "Women's Physique World".

It really was a great, comprehensive mag. It would be GREAT to know from Wennerstrom "why" it failed; but according to Romono, print publishing is becoming a model that simply is less and less viable.

Newletters are a possiblity...but most are now mostly glorified advertisement flyers for some line of products.


Mufasa

[sweetjane57]

But what does "more aesthetic" mean? To the every day person figure competitors are too much. I, for one, do not want to see female bodybuilding going backwards and I believe that telling women to "tone it down" is doing just that. Imagine telling Iris Kyle she needs to take it down a few notches to maybe...Anja Langer style.




Iris would not be expected to emulate Anja Langer's physique. Iris would be out. A new paradigm would involve a whole new cast of characters who would suit the aesthetic sense of a new audience. I'm talking about an entire rework, reset, square-one rebuild.


IMO:
Iris Kyle has achieved PERFECTION. The package she brought to the Arnold was "going backwards", FOR HER! BUT I believe FBB does need an entire rebuild. If FBB continues to reward like it has been, who's to stop Iris from getting as big as Ronnie Coleman?!?!?!?!?!? Like I said, she did tone it down. She is still too big for me, PERSONALLY, BUT I do believe she has sculpted the perfect physique. I do NOT believe she will retire, nor do I think she should, she is the perfect example of "for the love of the game" and will continue to compete untill her body gives up. All the sport will need to do is REBUILD FBB into a different look, while she's on top. Eventually it can become a whole new ballgame. They need to start a FBB "under 140(or another designated weight)" class or something. Like the "under 202 class". There are so many FBB's, but when there are so few shows and competition like Iris, when and why do they compete?!??! Give them 2 classes too, so that the already lightweight/middleweight Pro's can have some good competition. Then they need to start giving more Pro cards out so that the competitions can have a chance to grow. They do this and the numbers would go up and the look of FBB would change. Not to extremes either. There would still be the "heavies", people would just stop trying to catch up to Iris.




Now BIKINI... oh ho ho bikini... THE NAME alone needs to be changed IMO, if it were at least something like sports model it may deem a little more respect. Plus if the idea is that they are the "MOST marketable" mainstream models make them prove this on stage showing tone and FIT, sexy bodies... they could add a sportswear round - where competitors choose outfits to show their creativity, their personality and even more of a "fitness look" that could be portrayed in a fitness magazine... other federations already do this. If you are going to have a bikini division whether or not we agree at least do it up to it's full potential... make it more creative then just a hooters/bar bikini show.

I was 100% AGAINST Bikini. I still am. I do NOT think it should be in the IFBB/NPC. That is what the other Federations are for....BUT it is a money maker for them, that is what they see. SOOOOO, if they must, then another round like "sportswear" would be a good addition. I just don't see it happening though becasue it would cause the same problem the figure 1-piece caused. TOO MUCH WASTED TIME!

ok onto figure...
my suggestions (as I'm sure many of you have seen posted before)
**2 piece - one in plain suits with no accessories - 4 mandatory open handed poses (front bi, back bi, abs and thigh and side chest) - this makes for more of a stronger physique comparison...
**And one round in our suit (2 piece) of choice DECKED OUT (bling and/color and all)! - Mandatory relaxed poses and HALF T stage walk. This gives you more stage time and allows you to show your presence off even more.
**I also believe a 60 - 90 sec posing routine round (BB style) should be added as well... this will additionally allow competitors to showcase their physiques/strong points, show their creativity, their personalities and provide entertainment to the audience.

ABSOLUTELY NOT! I'm sorry, but IMO I have to disagree with you on this one. THAT IS WHAT BODYBUILDING is for. What in the world do we need Figure for if this gets implemented? It is the girls who WANT this for Figure that need to switch over to Bodybuilding so that it gets REBUILT(like me)!
Sure this may weed out all those Figure girls, but again, this is what THEY do NOT want......less $$$$$$, you even stated that.....this will not happen! Figure was developed FROM Fitness. Not everyone could handle the routine round, yet they could blow people away in the physique round. IT should be kept that way. BUT, SOMETHING needs to be done with the wish-washiness(made that word up.) of the judging. They already took out the 1-piece, so there isn't much left as it is. Maybe they need to put in 3 weight classes here. Keep everything the exact same, except this. I'm not even sure what the outcome would look like, but it could be interesting....IMO, it would be a bigger challenge for the ladies. I think that is the problem.....the Class A winner looks totally different than the Class F winner and so forth......one has no muscle, the other has alot. Putting the weight classes in, they would be able to judge as a WHOLE and then THEY would just need to pick WHAT LOOK they wanted to reward...harder, more muscular OR softer, less muscular. OUR advantage to that, weeds out the SOFT girls(they switch to Bikini) or weeds out the HARD girls(they switch to BB)





OK Fitness... now this may surprise some people but hear me out fully as I believe it can only help the lacking numbers in this division... I think that ALL tumbling should be eliminated from the routines... I have utmost respect for gymnasts but I think that it is unnecessary on a BB stage. One of the main reasons many do not compete in fitness or retire and switch to figure is because of the tumbling...the risk of injury to tumble when at low levels of body fat, depleted, dehydrated and often tumbling on hard wood floors that have absolutely no give is very high and many are not willing to risk it. There are MANY ways to showcase athleticism, strength, flexibility, dance, AND PERFORM your ass off without tumbling... no you do not HAVE to tumble but taking it out all together evens the playing field and greatly lowers the risk of injury, not to mention the hours of gymnastics practice many of these competitors must perform. It is not to water down or make fitness easier but to take out the biggest element of injury and force competitors to rely on PERFORMING, creativity and and all the other assets listed above.

Again, I don't agree. KEEP FITNESS what it is. Th enumbers are low, but this is a perfect example of where QUALITY over QUANTITY comes into play! FITNESS ROCKS! It is fun for both the competitor and the audience. It is just EXTREME to those who are in the elite!!!!!! BUT that is why it has the best of the best. Newbies are making their way in and are doing great in the sport...this division is what it should be. Make it any easier and the division gets ruined.....more peeps who don't belong!

As for BB - lets start with the routines alone... AGAIN the routine round is a bodybuilders time to show their creativity, to show their personality and A lot of people just wing it that day... this makes for a miserably boring time. I say either only have the top 5 do their routines, OR every show should have a ROUTINE PRIZE (even it's like $100) , that way it gives guys and girls an incentive to actually put some time into the routine. They are suppose to entertain the crowd and draw in people for the sport and the night show and I think adding some incentive would help people work harder on them and make for a better night show... people come at night for a show, GIVE THEM A SHOW... oh yeah and bring back props nothing crazy but come on it's not that big a deal and its fun.

My thoughts on BB are stated above.

OH and last but not least I think all divisions NEED MORE SET STANDARDS and criteria in judging this is just an example of something I made up for figure...

When you step off stage there should be a sheet from each judge with exact criteria on a scale from 1 to 10
For figure... it should look like this. IMO - they are in order of importance... and I explain why the criteria to me is important

Muscular development
Conditioning
Symmetry
Stage presence
Suit choices .

Total Feminine Package - (Hair, make-up, jewelery, shoes, and accessories)
Facial Beauty and skincare and coloring

AND here, my friend, is WHAT Figure is supposed to be, not doing POSING in heels or some routine...the handouts would be great, but realisticly, that won't happen, at least untill there is a huge drop in the numbers.



I respect you for taking your time to write all that out. I am not trying to be disrespectful by disagreeing with you on some things.....just being honest and putting my .02$ for part of the discussion. I should probably thank you too....lol, made it easier to get my thoughts out after reading!

[fitmomma3]

I respect you for taking your time to write all that out. I am not trying to be disrespectful by disagreeing with you on some things.....just being honest and putting my .02$ for part of the discussion. I should probably thank you too....lol, made it easier to get my thoughts out after reading!
Everyone's opinion is good even if we disagree... but many have stated time and time again figure criteria is too simple it is the largest category has the most competitors and has the least criteria. Assessing someone's physique by relaxed quarter turns is not only inefficient, but boring and even if figure and BB had similar protocols they would still be VERY different divisions because of standards of physiques.

And you're saying in your post Figure is fine the way it is, Fitness is fine the way it is and BB is fine the way it is... the question in this thread is how would you IMPROVE them. The lack of numbers, lack of support, and need for this thread and the countless other threads addressing these very issues clearly show that all the divisions are not fine the way they are and need revamping...the addition of another division may have been a start to this revamping but improving the divisions we already have seems more suitable to me.

[sweetjane57]

Everyone's opinion is good even if we disagree... but many have stated time and time again figure criteria is too simple it is the largest category has the most competitors and has the least criteria. Assessing someone's physique by relaxed quarter turns is not only inefficient, but boring and even if figure and BB had similar protocols they would still be VERY different divisions because of standards of physiques.
What would be the need for Figure then??????? This is my point exactly. Figure has not established a STANDARD for PHYSIQUE by the judging. You listed the criteria based on judging, THAT was what Figure was developed for. Obviously the competitors dont think its too boring, cause why are they still competing in it? Those girls need to make the switch. Doing that can change BB!

And you're saying in your post Figure is fine the way it is, Fitness is fine the way it is and BB is fine the way it is ARE YOU KIDDING? I think you need to reread the RED parts in my previous post and then the bit before your quote, about BB! I said that about FITNESS ONLY.... the question in this thread is how would you IMPROVE them. The lack of numbers, lack of support, and need for this thread and the countless other threads addressing these very issues clearly show that all the divisions are not fine the way they are and need revamping...the addition of another division may have been a start to this revamping this was not a start in REVAMPING, IMO....it was more like adding a BIGGER CONFUSION to an already ONGOING problem with the divisions! but improving the divisions we already have seems more suitable to me.

:Djust discussing.

[BadBoy]

I don't see why a separate "niche" FBB mag, designed to flourish under a different economic model, couldn't prosper.

1988 called.

They want their idea back.

[AnglicanBeachParty]

1988 called.

They want their idea back.

I'm holding the Spring 2006 issue in my hands right now. This is something that has worked much more recently than 1988.

[Curt James]

There are an awful lot of niche magazines out there today in other areas (e.g., motorsports). Even after hearing from publishers that the economic model won't work for a Female Bodybuilding-only print magazine, I find it difficult to believe.
(snip)
I don't see why a separate "niche" FBB mag, designed to flourish under a different economic model, couldn't prosper.

We do have Oxygen, Shape, and MF Hers. Although there's little to zero fbb content, it's better than nothing.

Still, you mentioned WPW. I certainly miss that print mag as well as Female Bodybuilding which wasn't a bad magazine at all.

With magazines devoted to every possible topic, you'd think there would be enough subscribers to at least support a quarterly magazine devoted to the ladies of this sport.

[Mufasa]

We do have Oxygen, Shape, and MF Hers. Although there's little to zero fbb content, it's better than nothing.

Still, you mentioned WPW. I certainly miss that print mag as well as Female Bodybuilding which wasn't a bad magazine at all.

With magazines devoted to every possible topic, you'd think there would be enough subscribers to at least support a quarterly magazine devoted to the ladies of this sport.

Steve Wennerstrom's "Women Physique World" HAD become (if a recall correctly), first bi-monthly; then quarterly; then something like bi-yearly (you get the idea).

I dug out a copy from a lot of my old mags...and it really was a quality mag, with excellent photography. The problem (as I see it) is that there was far more content than advertising. (Maybe that was the problem?)


My understanding is that Wennerstrom has fallen on some hard times? I think I'll see if Colette would consider him on her show.


Mufasa

[MsGuns]

Steve Wennerstrom's "Women Physique World" HAD become (if a recall correctly), first bi-monthly; then quarterly; then something like bi-yearly (you get the idea).

I dug out a copy from a lot of my old mags...and it really was a quality mag, with excellent photography. The problem (as I see it) is that there was far more content than advertising. (Maybe that was the problem?)


My understanding is that Wennerstrom has fallen on some hard times? I think I'll see if Colette would consider him on her show.


Mufasa

The print mag stop awhile ago and the online mag stopped last yr...
When I shot w/ him in 07 I thought I was going online to WPW but he corrected me in an email that I was being submitted to the Muscle Diva section of MD in the Oct issue...

Let me make a call to confirm...

[Mufasa]

Guns:

I went back and looked at the "WPW" mag I had; it was a 1996 issue; but I THINK I got it later as part of a deal for some old "Muscle and Fitness" and "Flex" mags.

As I thumbed through it, it really was a well-put together mag; but the advertising was really sparce; and of that, most was muscle worship, female wrestling and FBB videos. (I was "surprised"??? to not see much, if any, supplement advertising; I'll have to go back through it).


Mufasa

[MsGuns]

Guns:

I went back and looked at the "WPW" mag I had; it was a 1996 issue; but I THINK I got it later as part of a deal for some old "Muscle and Fitness" and "Flex" mags.

As I thumbed through it, it really was a well-put together mag; but the advertising was really sparce; and of that, most was muscle worship, female wrestling and FBB videos. (I was "surprised"??? to not see much, if any, supplement advertising; I'll have to go back through it).


Mufasa

My contact must be out of the country...he normally calls me back...I had Steve's phone # @ one point maybe Ill email him.

[BadBoy]

I'm holding the Spring 2006 issue in my hands right now. This is something that has worked much more recently than 1988.
You're right - print magazines are definitely the future. The internet will be out of style before we know it.


Steve Wennerstrom's "Women Physique World"
Point-of-clarification - WPW is owned by Bill Jentz, not by Steve.

[AnglicanBeachParty]

You're right - print magazines are definitely the future. The internet will be out of style before we know it.

I reckon you're right ... that's why there are no more Borders or Barnes & Noble bookstores anymore. Nobody wants anything in printed form these days.

It must also be why the NY Times bestsellers list only ever lists online books.

[SallyAnne]

I reckon you're right ... that's why there are no more Borders or Barnes & Noble bookstores anymore. Nobody wants anything in printed form these days.

It must also be why the NY Times bestsellers list only ever lists online books.

There's no denying that all major publications are going digital - and for good reason. The cost is a fraction of what print is. I see digital magazines as the wave of the future, as well - but it will be along time before printed books are gone.

[Mufasa]

...Point-of-clarification - WPW is owned by Bill Jentz, not by Steve...


Was Steve just the Photographer/Editor/Other?



Mufasa

[MsGuns]

I reckon you're right ... that's why there are no more Borders or Barnes & Noble bookstores anymore. Nobody wants anything in printed form these days.

It must also be why the NY Times bestsellers list only ever lists online books.

Really...we still have borders and barnes n noble.

[MsGuns]

I just found this on another site...
Its an interview by GX w/ Bill Dobbins...
read what he had to say about women's bodybuilding...
I apologize now...he has a lot to say...
What do yall think about what Bill said?

Gaoshang Xiongshou: Do you feel you offer somewhat of a voice for the muscular female form with your photography?

Bill Dobbins: It’s a shame that anyone would have to be a “voice” for muscular women since physique organizations like the NPC and the IFBB and the various physique publications should be doing this themselves without any outside prompting. But these women have been subject to various kinds of gender discrimination policies – some of which may actually be illegal – since the earliest days of bodybuilding for women and this attitude continues to plague women’s bodybuilding, fitness and figure competition to this day. Rules and judging criteria have dictated that women can’t be “too muscular” or can be penalized for lack of “femininity.” This is discriminatory because there are no similar or parallel restrictions placed on the men.

This also ignores that physique competition already has an aesthetic component built into the judging. Big and bulky is not what building a quality physique should be about. Look at the fact that Dexter Jackson beat so many bigger bodybuilders at the Olympia and Iris Kyle regularly defeats women 20 pounds bigger and more. Of course, if pro bodybuilding competition were always judged using weight divisions this would make this much less of a problem.

It doesn’t seem to me that bodybuilding of any sort is a growth industry nowadays but it seems clear that the federations are clearly choking off interest in women’s competition. The magazines feature T&A models - who come and go and don’t create much of a loyal fan base (not like the days in which Weider made stars out of Rachel McLish, Cory Everson and others). Publishers keep missing the point that readers like to LOOK at photos of girls in bikinis but they don’t BUY magazines just to own these photos. Not in the age of the Internet.

It seems obvious to me that the treatment of female physique competitors is not just sexist and gender discriminatory – IT’S BAD BUSINESS. There is a “product” out there that could be promoted to sell more contest tickets, magazines and nutritional supplements – specifically, beautiful and fit women who represent the benefits of the exercise and diet systems promoted by the industry - and it amazes me that so many who are supposed to be good at business just don’t get it.

Gaoshang Xiongshou: What have your thoughts been on the change and progression of female musculature throughout your career?

Bill Dobbins: The “bodybuilding method” is one of the most effective and efficient exercises systems that exist. If anyone trains and diets using these principles they will develop more muscle while leaning out their body composition. This is as true for women as for men. So when genetically talented women do this kind of training over a period of years (bodybuilders, fitness or figure competitors) they are going to get bigger, more muscular and more defined as a result.

What amazes me is not that women competitors have become more highly developed since competition for women began – it is HOW LITTLE PROGRESS they have made in the past 20 years. Bodybuilding is a sport and one of the characteristics of all sport is that it is progressive. That is, competitors get better over time. With female bodybuilders, while they have made progress in the last 30 years they have done so much more slowly than have the men. Why? Because the federations have made an effort to penalize them for getting “too good” and “too muscular” too quickly and to convince them that getting “too big” (according to some undefined standard) is a bad idea.

When Iris Kyle first competed in the Olympia, she was just about as good as she is now (although she’s learned a lot about improving her make-up and overall appearance) but the judges refused to even compare her with the top three finalists. That was more than just bad judging. That was some kind of an implicit or explicit official agreement.

This distorted judging has trickled down to the figure women as well. The federations have consistently marked them down in contests for developing physiques that are the natural result of consistent training and dieting. Thus, for example, a woman whose physique might be contest ready at 138 pounds is forced to artificially reduce her body size to 126 or 127 pounds through excessive dieting and cardio. The women don’t like this, the audiences don’t require it so the only group that ends up being satisfied is the judges. But since when should physique contests be about the personal views of a specific group of judges? This ends up disappointing everyone else involved and the result is that very few figure or fitness women develop a long-term fan base of loyal admirers.

I’m told this is done to discourage figure women from using drugs. But while most of these women don’t want or need to get bigger than they are after normal training and diet – and so have little use for anabolic agents - many DO need to use various substances to become artificially lean while maintaining some degree of definition. And this means everything from some kind of amphetamine to low-androgenic steroids like Anavar or Winstrol to go along with their deprivation diets and exhausting sessions of cardio.

What we really need in ALL physique competition is to allow the competitors to go as far as they can in terms of muscular development and definition with the only limit being the established standards of aesthetics developed over a half century of bodybuilding tradition. If figure women begin to look too much like bodybuilders – that is, they genuinely have the wrong aesthetics for the category – honest and perceptive judges will mark them down for this and suggest they change categories. But many figure women don’t want to become bodybuilders because they see how badly these competitors are treated and supported. Including hardly getting any photos in the physique magazines.

If women bodybuilders get too thick and bulky for their frames they should suffer the same penalties incurred by male bodybuilders who do the same thing. Competition should be about sculpture, not bulk.

But in no way should women ever be marked down because a judge thinks big muscles are not “feminine. These are physique competitions, not beauty contests, and while conventional sexual attractiveness will always be a factor it shouldn’t be the primary one.

Gaoshang Xiongshou: The seemingly general consensus among males is that female muscle is not attractive, but there has been plenty of evidence to show otherwise. What are your thoughts about the idea of lying to society and oneself, just to fit in and not stand out?

Bill Dobbins: Physique competition has it’s own aesthetic standards. Some people may find female muscle sexy, some not – but that is not what training and dieting for competition is all about. Popular standards of what makes a woman attractive change over time. Just look at how fat a Rubens nude is, how boyish the 20’s flappers looked, the difference between a full figured Marilyn Monroe and the much more slender ideal we see today. When I was a kid, tall women slumped and wore flats so as not to intimidate men. Nowadays, a 6’ tall model will wear 5 inch heels and her 5’10” male companion will show her off like a trophy.

Of course, despite the fashion of the time what “pulls your trigger” is always an individual matter. Some men like tall or short, fat or skinny, big hips and breasts or boyish. But the point of physique training is that it creates a type of development when done by the genetically gifted that transcends fashion. If you put Cleopatra or Joan of Arc on the right kind of training program they would end up looking like bodybuilders to one degree or the other.

It is the nature of our culture to see women in sexual terms. Top women athletes who are more attractive get more promotion and better commercial deals. But being sexier doesn’t help Serena Williams or Maria Sharipova win tennis tournaments.

The tragedy involving how female bodybuilders, fitness and figure women are treated is that the federations, magazines and the fitness industry tend not to appreciate how many people DO find them attractive. Go to the Olympia or Arnold Expos and you’ll find that sexy models are a dime a dozen but top competitors (past and present) tend to get a lot more attention. Women like Lenda Murray, Monica Brant and Timea Majorova develop loyal fans who stay interested in them for many years. I wonder how much of the problem is not that the fans don’t find these women attractive but that those in charge of the federations, magazines and supplement companies don’t appreciate them and are confusing their own tastes with that of their audience, readers and customers.

By the way, no matter what men will say when asked, in the abstract, what they think of women with muscles, have a female bodybuilder like Cathy LeFrancois or Denise Masino or fitness and figure women like Monica, Timea, Jenny Lynn or Adela Garcia walk through a mall in a tight skirt or sit at a bar on a Saturday night and see how much attention they get! “I don’t like those women with muscles I see on TV but you look great,” they will commonly hear – even though they themselves are the competitors the guy hitting on them is talking about.

Of course, nowadays the public doesn’t get much chance to see these women since the magazines and sponsors don’t make much use of them. Except of course on the Internet. Do a Google search and you’ll find there are MANY MORE search hits of women with muscles than men with muscles.

Almost everybody likes women with muscles – as long as the women are aesthetic and attractive enough. And these women would be a great help in allowing magazines and advertisers to make more money.

[AnglicanBeachParty]

There's no denying that all major publications are going digital - and for good reason. The cost is a fraction of what print is. I see digital magazines as the wave of the future, as well - but it will be along time before printed books are gone.

To a degree, I see your point.

Newspapers are all really struggling. My view is that the more "transient" the content, the more it is bound to the current moment in time, the less you will see it in print.

So, for example, a print version BB mag is practically worthless for contest results, because of the delay.

But, some things are timeless. I happen to think that the physiques of female bodybuilders fall into this category. Would anyone truly be satisfied with the internet version of John Stutz's book, Fit Girls?? I certainly would not.

But, what comes out in print will come at a cost. A good benchmark in another field (the car hobby) is The Rodder's Journal (http://www.roddersjournal.com/). More like a book than a magazine, it retails for about $15 a pop. It seems to be doing quite well at that price.

I could see a quarterly or semi-annual print mag/book, with few or no ads, doing well in this price range.

[tj1230x]

In my opinion, what should be done are some studies in to who are your target markets. How do you reach these target markets? Every business does it. Perhaps they should do customer satisfaction surveys at the contests. Gather up the the responses and then determine how to improve things.

I think they need to do a better job promoting the athletes. Do you think Nascar or the NBA was always this popular. Granted they are mainstream sports but they determined their target audiences and then they went after them by coming up with a marketing plan. Maybe have a meet and greet like at the Olympia or get a chance for fans to watch them train or take pictures with them. The promoters should hit the local TV stations and get interviewed and bring along a fitness/figure/bodybuilder or all three a week before the contest to get people to come to the shows.

As for the shows, I think figure needs to change. Its kind of boring. I have got to admit that I had trouble keeping my eyes open at the Arnold watching the figure. Maybe some poses or a routine or something, just get them to move around.
Fitness and bodybuilding probably just need to be promoted more.

[Allifit]

We do have Oxygen, Shape, and MF Hers. Although there's little to zero fbb content, it's better than nothing.
Shape is crap for women who workout seriously. Think soccer mom looking to get fit in 20 minutes a day or less....

Oxygen and MF Hers used to be more hardcore. I began reading both back in 2000 and now they are assimilating more and more towards a SHAPE type magazine. When I began reading Oxygen Tara Scotti and Kelly Ryan were cover models. Now its a typical string thing chick in a bikini talking about her circuit training. No thank you.

[Allifit]

I just found this on another site...
Its an interview by GX w/ Bill Dobbins...
read what he had to say about women's bodybuilding...
I apologize now...he has a lot to say...
What do yall think about what Bill said?

Gaoshang Xiongshou: Do you feel you offer somewhat of a voice for the muscular female form with your photography?

Bill Dobbins: It’s a shame that anyone would have to be a “voice” for muscular women since physique organizations like the NPC and the IFBB and the various physique publications should be doing this themselves without any outside prompting. But these women have been subject to various kinds of gender discrimination policies – some of which may actually be illegal – since the earliest days of bodybuilding for women and this attitude continues to plague women’s bodybuilding, fitness and figure competition to this day. Rules and judging criteria have dictated that women can’t be “too muscular” or can be penalized for lack of “femininity.” This is discriminatory because there are no similar or parallel restrictions placed on the men.

This also ignores that physique competition already has an aesthetic component built into the judging. Big and bulky is not what building a quality physique should be about. Look at the fact that Dexter Jackson beat so many bigger bodybuilders at the Olympia and Iris Kyle regularly defeats women 20 pounds bigger and more. Of course, if pro bodybuilding competition were always judged using weight divisions this would make this much less of a problem.

It doesn’t seem to me that bodybuilding of any sort is a growth industry nowadays but it seems clear that the federations are clearly choking off interest in women’s competition. The magazines feature T&A models - who come and go and don’t create much of a loyal fan base (not like the days in which Weider made stars out of Rachel McLish, Cory Everson and others). Publishers keep missing the point that readers like to LOOK at photos of girls in bikinis but they don’t BUY magazines just to own these photos. Not in the age of the Internet.

It seems obvious to me that the treatment of female physique competitors is not just sexist and gender discriminatory – IT’S BAD BUSINESS. There is a “product” out there that could be promoted to sell more contest tickets, magazines and nutritional supplements – specifically, beautiful and fit women who represent the benefits of the exercise and diet systems promoted by the industry - and it amazes me that so many who are supposed to be good at business just don’t get it.

Gaoshang Xiongshou: What have your thoughts been on the change and progression of female musculature throughout your career?

Bill Dobbins: The “bodybuilding method” is one of the most effective and efficient exercises systems that exist. If anyone trains and diets using these principles they will develop more muscle while leaning out their body composition. This is as true for women as for men. So when genetically talented women do this kind of training over a period of years (bodybuilders, fitness or figure competitors) they are going to get bigger, more muscular and more defined as a result.

What amazes me is not that women competitors have become more highly developed since competition for women began – it is HOW LITTLE PROGRESS they have made in the past 20 years. Bodybuilding is a sport and one of the characteristics of all sport is that it is progressive. That is, competitors get better over time. With female bodybuilders, while they have made progress in the last 30 years they have done so much more slowly than have the men. Why? Because the federations have made an effort to penalize them for getting “too good” and “too muscular” too quickly and to convince them that getting “too big” (according to some undefined standard) is a bad idea.

When Iris Kyle first competed in the Olympia, she was just about as good as she is now (although she’s learned a lot about improving her make-up and overall appearance) but the judges refused to even compare her with the top three finalists. That was more than just bad judging. That was some kind of an implicit or explicit official agreement.

This distorted judging has trickled down to the figure women as well. The federations have consistently marked them down in contests for developing physiques that are the natural result of consistent training and dieting. Thus, for example, a woman whose physique might be contest ready at 138 pounds is forced to artificially reduce her body size to 126 or 127 pounds through excessive dieting and cardio. The women don’t like this, the audiences don’t require it so the only group that ends up being satisfied is the judges. But since when should physique contests be about the personal views of a specific group of judges? This ends up disappointing everyone else involved and the result is that very few figure or fitness women develop a long-term fan base of loyal admirers.

I’m told this is done to discourage figure women from using drugs. But while most of these women don’t want or need to get bigger than they are after normal training and diet – and so have little use for anabolic agents - many DO need to use various substances to become artificially lean while maintaining some degree of definition. And this means everything from some kind of amphetamine to low-androgenic steroids like Anavar or Winstrol to go along with their deprivation diets and exhausting sessions of cardio.

What we really need in ALL physique competition is to allow the competitors to go as far as they can in terms of muscular development and definition with the only limit being the established standards of aesthetics developed over a half century of bodybuilding tradition. If figure women begin to look too much like bodybuilders – that is, they genuinely have the wrong aesthetics for the category – honest and perceptive judges will mark them down for this and suggest they change categories. But many figure women don’t want to become bodybuilders because they see how badly these competitors are treated and supported. Including hardly getting any photos in the physique magazines.

If women bodybuilders get too thick and bulky for their frames they should suffer the same penalties incurred by male bodybuilders who do the same thing. Competition should be about sculpture, not bulk.

But in no way should women ever be marked down because a judge thinks big muscles are not “feminine. These are physique competitions, not beauty contests, and while conventional sexual attractiveness will always be a factor it shouldn’t be the primary one.

Gaoshang Xiongshou: The seemingly general consensus among males is that female muscle is not attractive, but there has been plenty of evidence to show otherwise. What are your thoughts about the idea of lying to society and oneself, just to fit in and not stand out?

Bill Dobbins: Physique competition has it’s own aesthetic standards. Some people may find female muscle sexy, some not – but that is not what training and dieting for competition is all about. Popular standards of what makes a woman attractive change over time. Just look at how fat a Rubens nude is, how boyish the 20’s flappers looked, the difference between a full figured Marilyn Monroe and the much more slender ideal we see today. When I was a kid, tall women slumped and wore flats so as not to intimidate men. Nowadays, a 6’ tall model will wear 5 inch heels and her 5’10” male companion will show her off like a trophy.

Of course, despite the fashion of the time what “pulls your trigger” is always an individual matter. Some men like tall or short, fat or skinny, big hips and breasts or boyish. But the point of physique training is that it creates a type of development when done by the genetically gifted that transcends fashion. If you put Cleopatra or Joan of Arc on the right kind of training program they would end up looking like bodybuilders to one degree or the other.

It is the nature of our culture to see women in sexual terms. Top women athletes who are more attractive get more promotion and better commercial deals. But being sexier doesn’t help Serena Williams or Maria Sharipova win tennis tournaments.

The tragedy involving how female bodybuilders, fitness and figure women are treated is that the federations, magazines and the fitness industry tend not to appreciate how many people DO find them attractive. Go to the Olympia or Arnold Expos and you’ll find that sexy models are a dime a dozen but top competitors (past and present) tend to get a lot more attention. Women like Lenda Murray, Monica Brant and Timea Majorova develop loyal fans who stay interested in them for many years. I wonder how much of the problem is not that the fans don’t find these women attractive but that those in charge of the federations, magazines and supplement companies don’t appreciate them and are confusing their own tastes with that of their audience, readers and customers.

By the way, no matter what men will say when asked, in the abstract, what they think of women with muscles, have a female bodybuilder like Cathy LeFrancois or Denise Masino or fitness and figure women like Monica, Timea, Jenny Lynn or Adela Garcia walk through a mall in a tight skirt or sit at a bar on a Saturday night and see how much attention they get! “I don’t like those women with muscles I see on TV but you look great,” they will commonly hear – even though they themselves are the competitors the guy hitting on them is talking about.

Of course, nowadays the public doesn’t get much chance to see these women since the magazines and sponsors don’t make much use of them. Except of course on the Internet. Do a Google search and you’ll find there are MANY MORE search hits of women with muscles than men with muscles.

Almost everybody likes women with muscles – as long as the women are aesthetic and attractive enough. And these women would be a great help in allowing magazines and advertisers to make more money.

Thanks for posting this- this was great....

[MsGuns]

Was Steve just the Photographer/Editor/Other?



Mufasa

Musfasa,

Steve believes the print stopped in 2006 and the online mag is still going.
If you wanna contact Bill Jentz you can PM me for his email addy.

Steve was/is a photographer for sure and I believe a writer of a few articles/interviews.

[FitGems]

I just found this on another site...
Its an interview by GX w/ Bill Dobbins...
read what he had to say about women's bodybuilding...
I apologize now...he has a lot to say...
What do yall think about what Bill said?

Gaoshang Xiongshou: Do you feel you offer somewhat of a voice for the muscular female form with your photography?

Bill Dobbins: It’s a shame that anyone would have to be a “voice” for muscular women since physique organizations like the NPC and the IFBB and the various physique publications should be doing this themselves without any outside prompting. But these women have been subject to various kinds of gender discrimination policies – some of which may actually be illegal – since the earliest days of bodybuilding for women and this attitude continues to plague women’s bodybuilding, fitness and figure competition to this day. Rules and judging criteria have dictated that women can’t be “too muscular” or can be penalized for lack of “femininity.” This is discriminatory because there are no similar or parallel restrictions placed on the men.

This also ignores that physique competition already has an aesthetic component built into the judging. Big and bulky is not what building a quality physique should be about. Look at the fact that Dexter Jackson beat so many bigger bodybuilders at the Olympia and Iris Kyle regularly defeats women 20 pounds bigger and more. Of course, if pro bodybuilding competition were always judged using weight divisions this would make this much less of a problem.

It doesn’t seem to me that bodybuilding of any sort is a growth industry nowadays but it seems clear that the federations are clearly choking off interest in women’s competition. The magazines feature T&A models - who come and go and don’t create much of a loyal fan base (not like the days in which Weider made stars out of Rachel McLish, Cory Everson and others). Publishers keep missing the point that readers like to LOOK at photos of girls in bikinis but they don’t BUY magazines just to own these photos. Not in the age of the Internet.

It seems obvious to me that the treatment of female physique competitors is not just sexist and gender discriminatory – IT’S BAD BUSINESS. There is a “product” out there that could be promoted to sell more contest tickets, magazines and nutritional supplements – specifically, beautiful and fit women who represent the benefits of the exercise and diet systems promoted by the industry - and it amazes me that so many who are supposed to be good at business just don’t get it.

Gaoshang Xiongshou: What have your thoughts been on the change and progression of female musculature throughout your career?

Bill Dobbins: The “bodybuilding method” is one of the most effective and efficient exercises systems that exist. If anyone trains and diets using these principles they will develop more muscle while leaning out their body composition. This is as true for women as for men. So when genetically talented women do this kind of training over a period of years (bodybuilders, fitness or figure competitors) they are going to get bigger, more muscular and more defined as a result.

What amazes me is not that women competitors have become more highly developed since competition for women began – it is HOW LITTLE PROGRESS they have made in the past 20 years. Bodybuilding is a sport and one of the characteristics of all sport is that it is progressive. That is, competitors get better over time. With female bodybuilders, while they have made progress in the last 30 years they have done so much more slowly than have the men. Why? Because the federations have made an effort to penalize them for getting “too good” and “too muscular” too quickly and to convince them that getting “too big” (according to some undefined standard) is a bad idea.

When Iris Kyle first competed in the Olympia, she was just about as good as she is now (although she’s learned a lot about improving her make-up and overall appearance) but the judges refused to even compare her with the top three finalists. That was more than just bad judging. That was some kind of an implicit or explicit official agreement.

This distorted judging has trickled down to the figure women as well. The federations have consistently marked them down in contests for developing physiques that are the natural result of consistent training and dieting. Thus, for example, a woman whose physique might be contest ready at 138 pounds is forced to artificially reduce her body size to 126 or 127 pounds through excessive dieting and cardio. The women don’t like this, the audiences don’t require it so the only group that ends up being satisfied is the judges. But since when should physique contests be about the personal views of a specific group of judges? This ends up disappointing everyone else involved and the result is that very few figure or fitness women develop a long-term fan base of loyal admirers.

I’m told this is done to discourage figure women from using drugs. But while most of these women don’t want or need to get bigger than they are after normal training and diet – and so have little use for anabolic agents - many DO need to use various substances to become artificially lean while maintaining some degree of definition. And this means everything from some kind of amphetamine to low-androgenic steroids like Anavar or Winstrol to go along with their deprivation diets and exhausting sessions of cardio.

What we really need in ALL physique competition is to allow the competitors to go as far as they can in terms of muscular development and definition with the only limit being the established standards of aesthetics developed over a half century of bodybuilding tradition. If figure women begin to look too much like bodybuilders – that is, they genuinely have the wrong aesthetics for the category – honest and perceptive judges will mark them down for this and suggest they change categories. But many figure women don’t want to become bodybuilders because they see how badly these competitors are treated and supported. Including hardly getting any photos in the physique magazines.

If women bodybuilders get too thick and bulky for their frames they should suffer the same penalties incurred by male bodybuilders who do the same thing. Competition should be about sculpture, not bulk.

But in no way should women ever be marked down because a judge thinks big muscles are not “feminine. These are physique competitions, not beauty contests, and while conventional sexual attractiveness will always be a factor it shouldn’t be the primary one.

Gaoshang Xiongshou: The seemingly general consensus among males is that female muscle is not attractive, but there has been plenty of evidence to show otherwise. What are your thoughts about the idea of lying to society and oneself, just to fit in and not stand out?

Bill Dobbins: Physique competition has it’s own aesthetic standards. Some people may find female muscle sexy, some not – but that is not what training and dieting for competition is all about. Popular standards of what makes a woman attractive change over time. Just look at how fat a Rubens nude is, how boyish the 20’s flappers looked, the difference between a full figured Marilyn Monroe and the much more slender ideal we see today. When I was a kid, tall women slumped and wore flats so as not to intimidate men. Nowadays, a 6’ tall model will wear 5 inch heels and her 5’10” male companion will show her off like a trophy.

Of course, despite the fashion of the time what “pulls your trigger” is always an individual matter. Some men like tall or short, fat or skinny, big hips and breasts or boyish. But the point of physique training is that it creates a type of development when done by the genetically gifted that transcends fashion. If you put Cleopatra or Joan of Arc on the right kind of training program they would end up looking like bodybuilders to one degree or the other.

It is the nature of our culture to see women in sexual terms. Top women athletes who are more attractive get more promotion and better commercial deals. But being sexier doesn’t help Serena Williams or Maria Sharipova win tennis tournaments.

The tragedy involving how female bodybuilders, fitness and figure women are treated is that the federations, magazines and the fitness industry tend not to appreciate how many people DO find them attractive. Go to the Olympia or Arnold Expos and you’ll find that sexy models are a dime a dozen but top competitors (past and present) tend to get a lot more attention. Women like Lenda Murray, Monica Brant and Timea Majorova develop loyal fans who stay interested in them for many years. I wonder how much of the problem is not that the fans don’t find these women attractive but that those in charge of the federations, magazines and supplement companies don’t appreciate them and are confusing their own tastes with that of their audience, readers and customers.

By the way, no matter what men will say when asked, in the abstract, what they think of women with muscles, have a female bodybuilder like Cathy LeFrancois or Denise Masino or fitness and figure women like Monica, Timea, Jenny Lynn or Adela Garcia walk through a mall in a tight skirt or sit at a bar on a Saturday night and see how much attention they get! “I don’t like those women with muscles I see on TV but you look great,” they will commonly hear – even though they themselves are the competitors the guy hitting on them is talking about.

Of course, nowadays the public doesn’t get much chance to see these women since the magazines and sponsors don’t make much use of them. Except of course on the Internet. Do a Google search and you’ll find there are MANY MORE search hits of women with muscles than men with muscles.

Almost everybody likes women with muscles – as long as the women are aesthetic and attractive enough. And these women would be a great help in allowing magazines and advertisers to make more money.


Wow...that's deep. Thanks you for posting this, MsGuns. I think everyone needs to read this.

And after they read it, they need to let that sink in and understand it.

[SallyAnne]

Yes - GX did an excellent job on that interview - but Bill is an excellent subject because he speaks his mind in a very intelligent and thoughtful way.

[MsGuns]

Wow...that's deep. Thanks you for posting this, MsGuns. I think everyone needs to read this.

And after they read it, they need to let that sink in and understand it.

your welcome
yeah I had to print it myself and read it...
I think Bill hit some good points.
That needed to be printed in a mag or sent to ALL editors and supplements co...

[MsGuns]

Yes - GX did an excellent job on that interview - but Bill is an excellent subject because he speaks his mind in a very intelligent and thoughtful way.

I agree...
but there wasnt musch discussion on the other site...I guess it was hitting home til this yr...
He doesnt hold back...lol

[MsGuns]

http://www.ftppv.com/ftvideo/archive/index.php/t-150.html

Does anyone know whatever happened after it was sent?

http://www.ftppv.com/ftvideo/archive/index.php/t-33.html
Ms Olympia speaks...

[The Big Sexy]

Just as I would like to see a more classic physique come back to male bodybuilding - I would like to see the more classic physique come back to female bodybuilding as well. More of a focus on the art of the body - rather than getting as big as possible... not that I don't find as big as possible also good - but I think it would be better for female bodybuilding if the Corey Everson type physique was more of a standard (or, maybe an evolution of that physique?)

~TBS~

[MsGuns]

http://www.ftppv.com/ftvideo/archive/index.php/t-130.html

Competitors and fans werent happy...

[Tre]

http://www.ftppv.com/ftvideo/archive/index.php/t-130.html

Competitors and fans werent happy...
That was the summer it was confirmed that competitive 'bikini' was coming to the IFBB/NPC.

*yawn*

I mean, 'yay'!

[Ibarramedia]

You got me. It is Vince McMahon indeed. When you hit the send button it's too late to correct a type-O. Jimbo might have some good advice, too. Afterall, he won a Super Bowl with marginal talent.


Not to go off topic and derail the thread but the Bears won with one of the best defenses in the history of the NFL. On offense He had the late Walter Payton, one of the best running backs of all time. You do not go 15-1 in the regular season, put up 2 shut outs in the playoffs and defeat the New England Patriots in the Superbowl by a score of 46-10 with marginal talent. The Bears defeated their three post season opponents by a combined score of 91-10 en route to a victory in Superbowl XX.

Ok back to our regularly scheduled program. :D

[fitbody]

son of a bitch i just typed for like twenty minutes and when i went to post it was zapped cause i had to log back in! :( ugggg....

i freakin' hate when that happens !!!!

[Blondell]

Shape is crap for women who workout seriously. Think soccer mom looking to get fit in 20 minutes a day or less....

Oxygen and MF Hers used to be more hardcore. I began reading both back in 2000 and now they are assimilating more and more towards a SHAPE type magazine. When I began reading Oxygen Tara Scotti and Kelly Ryan were cover models. Now its a typical string thing chick in a bikini talking about her circuit training. No thank you.
:beerbang:

Adela Garcia, too!

[fitbody]

[QUOTE=
Its an interview by GX w/ Bill Dobbins...
read what he had to say about women's bodybuilding...

I wonder how much of the problem is not that the fans don’t find these women attractive but that those in charge of the federations, magazines and supplement companies don’t appreciate them and are confusing their own tastes with that of their audience, readers and customers.[/SIZE][/FONT]

love this :beerbang:

[fitbody]

We do have Oxygen, Shape, and MF Hers. Although there's little to zero fbb content, it's better than nothing.

Still, you mentioned WPW. I certainly miss that print mag as well as Female Bodybuilding which wasn't a bad magazine at all.

With magazines devoted to every possible topic, you'd think there would be enough subscribers to at least support a quarterly magazine devoted to the ladies of this sport.

Oxygen, Shape & MF Hers are all CRAP !!!
BETTER THAN NOTHING ???!!!??? :eek:
THEY ARE NOTHING... grrrrrrr :mad:
i'll look in the back to an Oxygen to see if there any figure suit ideas for my competitors, but like i say i have to look in the back and lucky is there 2 - 4 pages of them... womens bb none, articles of substance none...
waste of trees...

Womens Physique World on the other hand ...
i still have some from way back
still look at them
still love them :p

GOD when are you gonna drop my some big dough
so i can start another mag up just like it
and of course hire Steve !!!!
Love you Steve... :bowdown:
I was in Womens Physique World way back in 1995
for the Western Canadian Championships
one of my best friends IFBB Pro Latia Del Riviero
got him to come up to shoot me

[MsGuns]

Iris Kyle's thoughts on how to improve bodybuilding...

3) What would you like to see happen within Women's Bodybuilding before your time is up to improve it?

A) First and foremost, I am honored to be apart of such small elite class of female athletes, a lot women take a lifetime, just trying to remain in decent shape for not only themselves, but their male companion... Now, the real issue here is the current status of women's bodybuilding. Hey Shawn a blind man can answer that question... Personally, it down right "SUCKS" in a major way. Our biggest problem is very few shows are held through out the calendar year, then the show which are held the prize money is a freak-in "JOKE" the amount of money being paid it takes that amount and some to properly prepare yourself. The killer part to all this is the promoters holding the shows are not willing to pay for any of the athletes expenses, that's three whammies in one. So NUMBER ONE issue for change is ----- "PRIZE MONEY" need to be increase TREMENDOUSLY including MORE SHOWS OFFERED.
Another concern us women are enduring, is sponsorships, the doors opening up for the women is a thing of the past. It would have been great, if the opportunity would had permit itself, to know exactly, what it takes to be accepted by the different sponsors, by all means, I am for certain, the majority of us women, would have followed suit. Unfortunately, doors were gracefully shut in our face, without the least bit of reason (s), its sad to say but its definitely true. You have male athletes with multiple sponsorships, half of which are amateurs or others who are remotely undeservingly credible candidates. Therefore, NUMBER TWO issue for change is---- more SPONSORSHIPS offered for women athletes.

Being a professional athlete, and one of the best in the world, I would think, I could pick up any of the latest magazines and notice an article or two on me. NOPE!!!! Hell, now its seem to be a crime, to place us women athletes in the magazine. How can we survive, the no coverage epidemic? We cannot at this rate. Our only recourse, is to follow similar steps like Denise Masino, by establish our own magazine, that way we can guarantee, reasonable amount of coverage. The perfect solution the bottom line, is we need more support, I meant proper and real support, someone, somebody who actually care about the women sport. That support can start, from the people in those particular areas of decision making... It can happen, that's far from the problem. But.... the question that remains is, do the people in the organization want it to happen... Therefore, THIRD change needed is----- YEARLY MAGAZINE COVERAGE ... not just during contest season ...

Now, the improvement part of the sport, will always start by showing, us women the same respect as the other athletes. We work as hard, or harder, so it's only fair to give us women athletes their just due. We are not asking for anything, any different then what is being given to the male athletes including Figure and Fitness athletes.... Sure the prize money will always be slightly different, but the amount given today, is something we as athletes and supporters, agree is definitely despicable. I think the organization, need to take a step outside the box, allowing the public to get more involved, the more the main media are aware of us women athletes, the easier it becomes for the regular old Joe's and Jane's to accurately get custom too us.
Just like everything else that being accepted in society, if you can remember, not so long ago, the gay community had the hardest time being accepted, kudos to them for holding their ground, by not being afraid of the aftermath... BAM!!!!! So what happen to the gay community for holding their ground? Well, after it was all said and done, the public look upon the gay community, as another part of society.
With that being said, I think the IFBB organization need to let go, allow us women to blossom, into beautiful flourish like flowers with MUSCLES, and I guarantee, we will win the rest of the world over. Only time can bring about a change.
Shawn, I can go on for days on ideas for improvement, I just think the "MOST" important improvement we all should practice, that goes for all mankind, is " To due on to others, as you would want others, to do on to you"
Keeping that motto in mind everything else will take its course as it should.
The FINAL change is---- MORE SUPPORT and REAL SUPPORT from IFBB ORGANIZATION.....