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View Full Version : Coffee. Probably been asked before.



Chebster
04-06-2009, 05:42 PM
I was reading Dave's Q/A page, and he recommends decaf coffee to reduce cortisol levels. I always thought that caffeine was our friend. I drink loads of coffee each day - I have a desk job and the cup's always full. Obviously I'm a bit of a newbie, and I understand high cortisol levels may raise fat levels. But is cutting coffee out essential for fat loss, especially when most fat burners contain caffeine? Thanks for any advice.

MichaelWayne
04-06-2009, 05:45 PM
Don't know about the cortisol side of the question, but I know Dave recommends decaf because he is anti-stimulants. Not totally sure, but think it has something to do with affecting ketosis in a way?...but like I said, not fully sure.

Frosty
04-06-2009, 05:50 PM
Caffeine is an excellent supplement and is well documented to have a lot of benefits, fat loss included.

It's a double-edged sword, though. Too much and you will increase cortisol too much and that is negative. Also by how it works through forcing the body to put out more stress hormones, it can deplete the adrenals. It also can deplete serotonin levels, too, which can be a very bad thing on a low carb diet. When taken with carbs, caffeine reduces insulin sensitivity since it releases fat into the blood.

You have to know your body. Response to stimulants varies hugely, so one person can drink a cup of coffee and be bouncing around at 9 pm, and another person can drink a cup of coffee and feel almost nothing.

You also have to consider your current state of health and your fat distribution. If you have no energy you might even have low cortisol because your adrenals are too stressed. If you have high cortisol, I wouldn't recommend caffeine. Without going to a saliva circadian rhythm cortisol test, you can estimate how you are doing by your skinfold around your belly button compared to your mid tricep skinfold. Is it much bigger than your tricep? If so, you probably have high cortisol and I wouldn't recommend caffeine until that's back in order. If not, moderate caffeine use can be quite beneficial.

Frosty
04-06-2009, 05:52 PM
Don't know about the cortisol side of the question, but I know Dave recommends decaf because he is anti-stimulants. Not totally sure, but think it has something to do with affecting ketosis in a way?...but like I said, not fully sure.

Dave permits a cup or two of coffee a day. Coffee isn't some evil drink that pegs your cortisol levels and makes you lose all your muscle. The problem is people tend to go overboard with things. Caffeine can stimulate fat loss without huge amounts.

MichaelWayne
04-06-2009, 05:54 PM
Dave permits a cup or two of coffee a day. Coffee isn't some evil drink that pegs your cortisol levels and makes you lose all your muscle. The problem is people tend to go overboard with things. Caffeine can stimulate fat loss without huge amounts.

Ah, gotcha. So its not the quality, its the quantity and someones lack of control with the stuff. Makes sense. Gracias!

Frosty
04-06-2009, 05:59 PM
Right. So many people have a "more is better" attitude....including myself a lot of times! With certain supplements, less is more.

Chebster
04-06-2009, 08:28 PM
Cheers, it makes a lot of sense. Obviously by the fact that it's 0122 am in the UK and I'm thanking you. I do suffer from general lethargy, but suffering from sleep apnea I assumed that was the reason, rather than the bucket of coffee I go through each day to counter act this. And yes my navel area fat is substantially more than my tricep which indicates that you are right. So decaf it is, even though it generally tastes as bad as home brand coke. Just out of interest, does green tea have the same issue? Thanks for all of your time.

Frosty
04-06-2009, 08:31 PM
Cheers, it makes a lot of sense. Obviously by the fact that it's 0122 am in the UK and I'm thanking you. I do suffer from general lethargy, but suffering from sleep apnea I assumed that was the reason, rather than the bucket of coffee I go through each day to counter act this. And yes my navel area fat is substantially more than my tricep which indicates that you are right. So decaf it is, even though it generally tastes as bad as home brand coke. Just out of interest, does green tea have the same issue? Thanks for all of your time.


Green tea seems to have 1/3 the caffeine as coffee, with variance depending. So I wouldn't go drinking a ton of green tea. Sweeten it with stevia but keep it in moderation, too.

Chebster
04-06-2009, 08:38 PM
I'll probably knock coffee on the head for a week or two, and stick to decaf herbal teas in an attempt to reset my tolerance. I've heard a lot about stevia, but not being a sweet tooth, does it have any benefits beyond being a healthy sweetener?

Frosty
04-06-2009, 08:51 PM
Supposedly it's a good adrenal recovery aid, but if you don't sweeten them that's fine, skip it.

"Rodz"
04-06-2009, 09:58 PM
Right. So many people have a "more is better" attitude....including myself a lot of times! With certain supplements, less is more.

What would too much be? i have had some success with 600 mg/day divided into 3 doses

Frosty
04-06-2009, 10:03 PM
What would too much be? i have had some success with 600 mg/day divided into 3 doses

That sounds like too much to me. 1-2 cups of coffee which is 100-200mg caffeine approx.

"Rodz"
04-06-2009, 10:47 PM
That sounds like too much to me. 1-2 cups of coffee which is 100-200mg caffeine approx.

Im sorry, just realized i wasn't specific, those doses are tabs with 24 mg of ephedrine, i drink a decaf in the morning ( the magic of the placebo effect)

Frosty
04-06-2009, 10:50 PM
Ephedrine is another example. As little as 8mg is needed to stimulate fat loss. It's another one people tend to use a ton of because of the "more is better" attitude.

"Rodz"
04-06-2009, 10:56 PM
Ephedrine is another example. As little as 8mg is needed to stimulate fat loss. It's another one people tend to use a ton of because of the "more is better" attitude.

great point, just trying to replicate the old stack, i started with 8mg and gradually moved up to find my tolerance, i found 4 tabs ( 8mg each) was comfortable, i notice the effects but i'm not jittery

Frosty
04-06-2009, 11:01 PM
I'd just make sure sleep isn't affected, you don't overstress adrenals, or you start to have a high skinfold around your belly button compared to your triceps.

"Rodz"
04-06-2009, 11:04 PM
I'd just make sure sleep isn't affected, you don't overstress adrenals, or you start to have a high skinfold around your belly button compared to your triceps.

my sleep is ok, but i read the skinfold comment earlier but didnt quite understand the meaning, most of my weight is at the waist, and my tri's are fairly defined

Frosty
04-07-2009, 12:04 AM
my sleep is ok, but i read the skinfold comment earlier but didnt quite understand the meaning, most of my weight is at the waist, and my tri's are fairly defined


Around your belly button? i.e. lower abs.

ving
04-07-2009, 12:19 AM
Caffeine is an excellent supplement and is well documented to have a lot of benefits, fat loss included.

It's a double-edged sword, though. Too much and you will increase cortisol too much and that is negative. Also by how it works through forcing the body to put out more stress hormones, it can deplete the adrenals. It also can deplete serotonin levels, too, which can be a very bad thing on a low carb diet. When taken with carbs, caffeine reduces insulin sensitivity since it releases fat into the blood.

You have to know your body. Response to stimulants varies hugely, so one person can drink a cup of coffee and be bouncing around at 9 pm, and another person can drink a cup of coffee and feel almost nothing.

You also have to consider your current state of health and your fat distribution. If you have no energy you might even have low cortisol because your adrenals are too stressed. If you have high cortisol, I wouldn't recommend caffeine. Without going to a saliva circadian rhythm cortisol test, you can estimate how you are doing by your skinfold around your belly button compared to your mid tricep skinfold. Is it much bigger than your tricep? If so, you probably have high cortisol and I wouldn't recommend caffeine until that's back in order. If not, moderate caffeine use can be quite beneficial.

Great post Frosty! I always felt a little bit of coffee definitely helped me when dieting, so this makes complete sense.

Chebster
04-07-2009, 05:47 PM
Cheers Frosty, you've been a great help. However, I have another question relating caffeine. Does caffeine use cancel out creatine use? One takes water out of the system whilst the other pumps it into the system. Or does caffeine use cancel out the water gains whilst retaining the strength gains of creatine. Sorry to keep bothering you Frosty, but you do seem to be the one with the sensible answers. Cheers buddy.

Frosty
04-07-2009, 06:58 PM
Cheers Frosty, you've been a great help. However, I have another question relating caffeine. Does caffeine use cancel out creatine use? One takes water out of the system whilst the other pumps it into the system. Or does caffeine use cancel out the water gains whilst retaining the strength gains of creatine. Sorry to keep bothering you Frosty, but you do seem to be the one with the sensible answers. Cheers buddy.

I've read about this as well. My best guess is likely caffeine reducing creatine transport since caffeine reduces insulin sensitivity through mobilizing fat into the blood. Remember insulin helps with storing creatine in muscle cells, so reduce the functionality of insulin and I imagine that could hurt how much creatine actually gets in the muscles.

I'd have to research it more, but I would venture to guess that if you had morning coffee and then had creatine PWO with carbs in the evening you'd be fine. Again I don't know this for sure, but my best guess currently and it would be interesting to research further.

Chebster
04-07-2009, 07:16 PM
Sorry to keep bothering you. So with the concept of insulin sensitivity. On a no carb diet is creatine worth taking at all. I've been taking it with an soluble fizzy vitamin c tablet as it seems to totally seems to make creatine soluble. Thanks for your help, I'm learning loads here. Cheers.

Frosty
04-07-2009, 07:43 PM
Sorry to keep bothering you. So with the concept of insulin sensitivity. On a no carb diet is creatine worth taking at all. I've been taking it with an soluble fizzy vitamin c tablet as it seems to totally seems to make creatine soluble. Thanks for your help, I'm learning loads here. Cheers.

Yes creatine monohydrate is VERY valuable on a low carb diet, especially a keto like the Palumbo Diet. Reason is it supplies energy for muscles for the higher intensity workouts we have. I just take more to make up for any reduced transport since it's dirt cheap. 10-15g a day. Just add a little salt with it as it helps creatine transport. I know this is something Author L. Rea talked about years ago.

"Rodz"
04-07-2009, 11:27 PM
Around your belly button? i.e. lower abs.

yes around the belly button is where the widest point is

Frosty
04-08-2009, 01:31 AM
yes around the belly button is where the widest point is

Yeah man, that's high cortisol.