Homebrew Tren & Filtering

[Zetawill]

I'm using a .33 whatman type filter and the tren is almost impossible to filter through. I either blow out the filter or sit there for 45 minutes to get 1 ml of oil.
Anyone else have problem filtering the tren? Should I use a .45 first and then the .33 or .25.



I've tried both the crystal method and passing it through the coffee filter (twice on my last batch) and each time it is a pain in the ass to filter. I'm using pre-filtered cottonseed oil, so I know the only thing that hasn't been filtered are the tren pellets.

Is it easier with a pump? Any help will be greatly appreciated.

[RazorRipped]

You are applying too much pressure to the filter. That's why you are blowing it out.

Ever try the caulking gun method?:)

.45 is fine though, as long a the experiemnt has been pre filtered.

[HANEYCOLEMAN]

If folks are going to be homebrewing. then i suggest you invest in the proper equiptment. try searching the forumns for filter units. they are very available and of course invest in a handpump. i speciafically use this one........Whatman Zap-Cap Bottle Top Filter with Nylon Membrane

pour in in. pump up the pressure and walla no more drip ......drip.........drip and i also think watman filters are a waste. they were never designed to do what we do with them.

[jacshelb]

Yeah, the handpump ones look very nice! Never tried one. If using a whatman, I suggest letting the whole brew set for a couple days and then come back to it. All the binders (not the tren if done correctly) will settle to the bottom. Draw up the clear/clean liquid and filter first. It'll go much much faster. Then, when all the clear liquid is filtered, suck up the gunky mess at the bottom of the bottle and filter it too if you really want to squeeze that last couple mL out of the brew. Trust me, it's the binders that are fouling up your filtering.

I don't even filter out the binders to begin with (i.e. coffee filter) because this method works so easily.

[RazorRipped]

^^^^ Great point on the binders. It's been so long since I converted pellets, I forgot about that.
You're correct too. Pumps, membranes won't help much at all unless you let the experiment settle for a day or two.

[militantmuscle]

Definitely go with bottle top filters, syringe filters take way too long.

[jacshelb]

I got lucky last time I ordered whatman filters. I got a box of 50 instead of the 5 I had paid for! So, I just use them till they clog and grab another one.

This last experiment, I forgot to let the binders settle and just started filtering away last time and blew through two filters just to get a few mL, not fun. I let the rest sit a few days and filtered 20 or so mL in about 15-20 min tops, it just flew by with the binders settled to the bottom.

[maxititer]

I'm using a .33 whatman type filter and the tren is almost impossible to filter through. I either blow out the filter or sit there for 45 minutes to get 1 ml of oil.
Anyone else have problem filtering the tren? Should I use a .45 first and then the .33 or .25.



I've tried both the crystal method and passing it through the coffee filter (twice on my last batch) and each time it is a pain in the ass to filter. I'm using pre-filtered cottonseed oil, so I know the only thing that hasn't been filtered are the tren pellets.

Is it easier with a pump? Any help will be greatly appreciated.

by filtering even with .22 filter you will not make your oil sterile

bacteria called mycoplasma can pass even 0.22 filter, mycoplasma also can survive in oil and mycoplasma used a lot in steroids manufacturing process, so contamination of raw powder with mycoplasma very much possible.

to get your gear sterile you will have to seal the vials and then sterilize it, either by dry heat or in autoclave, also you can use pressure cooker as autoclave.

[RazorRipped]

by filtering even with .22 filter you will not make your oil sterile

bacteria called mycoplasma can pass even 0.22 filter, mycoplasma also can survive in oil and mycoplasma used a lot in steroids manufacturing process, so contamination of raw powder with mycoplasma very much possible.

to get your gear sterile you will have to seal the vials and then sterilize it, either by dry heat or in autoclave, also you can use pressure cooker as autoclave.

Lots of science around that shows autoclave for oils isn't good to do.



To start here is a quote by Justin, a moderator at UK Muscle:
Quote:
Clearing up some misconceptions

Heat sterilisation of oil will not be successful by using 250F.
250F is the heat used by a certain class of autoclave. The autoclave uses pressure also to achieve wet sterilisation, this method will work for aqueous solutions but will NOT sterilise oil. If heat is the chosen method to sterilise oil, then you must sterilise by dry heat methods, i.e. 150-170C (302 - 338F) for 1-4 hrs, (type and volume depending) which can be detrimental to certain hormone preparations.
Divert your attentions to using clean practises, filtering with a 0.22um membrane filter and incorporating a Bacteriostatic agent (BA).



I found the following to support this quote.

From the FLINDERS UNIVERSITY OF SOUTH AUSTRALIA - FACULTY OF SCIENCE AND ENGINEERING
SCHOOL OF BIOLOGICAL SCIENCES USE AND TRAINING FOR AUTOCLAVES
"Ensure that the material is autoclavable – Oils, waxes, some plastics, flammable materials and samples
containing solvents or substances that may emit toxic fumes should not be autoclaved"

Full document here:
http://www.scieng.flinders.edu.au/bi.../Autoclave.pdf


In the article Sterilization and Disinfection it says:

"Dry heat is used for the sterilization of anhydrous oils, greases, powders, etc., that cannot be easily permeated by steam. Dry heat is less efficient than wet-heat sterilization and requires longer times or higher temperatures; specific time and temperature must be determined for each type of material being sterilized.

Sterilization can usually be accomplished at 160-170C (320-338F) for periods of 2-4 hours. Higher temperatures and shorter times may be used for heat resistant materials. The heat transfer properties and arrangement of articles in the load are critical to insuring effective sterilization."

and

Steam Sterilization Disadvantages
"Unsuitable method for sterilization of anhydrous oils, greases and powders."

Full document:
http://www2.ncsu.edu/ncsu/ehs/www99/...ioSterDis.html


The World of Autoclaves article gives a partial explanation why:
The time required to kill a known population of microorganisms in a specific suspension at a particular temperature is referred to as thermal death time (TDT). However, fats and oils slow heat penetration and increase TDT.

Full article:
http://esf.uvm.edu/uvmsafety/labsafe...utoclaves.html


Dry Heat Sterilization:
-Sterilization in the absence of water.
-Oven heated at 160 to 170 ° C for 2 to 3 hours.

Full article:
http://www.uta.edu/biology/badon/cla...ecture%206.pdf


DRY HEAT STERILIZATION:
Equipment: Oven
Method: Dry heat sterilization is carried out at 160 deg C. to 170 deg C. for 2 to 4 hrs.
Application: Glassware, Fixed oils, Thermostable powders

STEAM STERILIZATION:
Equipment: Autoclave
Disadvantages: 1. Cannot use for oily preparation (oil base ointment)

http://webusers.xula.edu/tmandal/pha...cs/STERILZ.PPT


"Fats and oils have a great protective effect on microorganisms and their spores by
interfering with the penetration of wet heat. As has been noted, wet heat at a given temperature is more lethal
than dry heat, because moisture is an effective conductor of heat and penetrates into microbial cells and spores.
If microorganisms are trapped within fat globules, then moisture can less readily penetrate into the cells and
heating becomes more like dry heat."

http://www.vhall.nl/International/Ch...eservation.pdf


Biosafety Program - STERILIZATION

"The advantage of wet heat is a better heat transfer to and into the cell resulting in overall shorter exposure time and lower temperature. Steam sterilization uses pressurized steam at 121-132° C (250-270° F) for 30 or 40 minutes. This type of heat kills all microbial cells including spores, which are normally heat resistant. In order to accomplish the same effect with dry heat in an oven, the temperature needs to be increased to 160-170° C (320-338° F) for periods of 2 to 4 hours."

Full article here:
http://www.lbl.gov/ehs/biosafety/Bio...lization.shtml


Standard Conditions for Sterilization

Dry Heat Sterilization

* 170° C (340° F)
* 1 hour (total cycle time—placing instruments in oven, heating to 170° C, timing for 1 hour, and then cooling—is from 2–2½ hours)

OR

* 160° C (320° F)
* 2 hours (total cycle time is from 3–3½ hours)
* Ideal for instruments with cutting edges and other sharps (e.g., scissors, scalpel blades, needles)

Exposure time begins only after the oven has reached the specified temperature.

Full article here:
http://www.reproline.jhu.edu/english...lti/pg/ip2.htm


Finally here is an advertisement for an ALL AMERICAN Electric Autoclave Model 25X, a $750 Sterilizer/Autoclave. Which says very clearly in the last line, "Not to be used to sterilize oils and powders."

So if you're counting on autoclaving/pressure cooking or baking (at any temp/time that wont fry your gear) to give you a sterile oil based product, think again.

[maxititer]

Lots of science around that shows autoclave for oils isn't good to do.



To start here is a quote by Justin, a moderator at UK Muscle:
Quote:
Clearing up some misconceptions

Heat sterilisation of oil will not be successful by using 250F.
250F is the heat used by a certain class of autoclave. The autoclave uses pressure also to achieve wet sterilisation, this method will work for aqueous solutions but will NOT sterilise oil. If heat is the chosen method to sterilise oil, then you must sterilise by dry heat methods, i.e. 150-170C (302 - 338F) for 1-4 hrs, (type and volume depending) which can be detrimental to certain hormone preparations.
Divert your attentions to using clean practises, filtering with a 0.22um membrane filter and incorporating a Bacteriostatic agent (BA).



I found the following to support this quote.

From the FLINDERS UNIVERSITY OF SOUTH AUSTRALIA - FACULTY OF SCIENCE AND ENGINEERING
SCHOOL OF BIOLOGICAL SCIENCES USE AND TRAINING FOR AUTOCLAVES
"Ensure that the material is autoclavable – Oils, waxes, some plastics, flammable materials and samples
containing solvents or substances that may emit toxic fumes should not be autoclaved"

Full document here:
http://www.scieng.flinders.edu.au/bi.../Autoclave.pdf


In the article Sterilization and Disinfection it says:

"Dry heat is used for the sterilization of anhydrous oils, greases, powders, etc., that cannot be easily permeated by steam. Dry heat is less efficient than wet-heat sterilization and requires longer times or higher temperatures; specific time and temperature must be determined for each type of material being sterilized.

Sterilization can usually be accomplished at 160-170C (320-338F) for periods of 2-4 hours. Higher temperatures and shorter times may be used for heat resistant materials. The heat transfer properties and arrangement of articles in the load are critical to insuring effective sterilization."

and

Steam Sterilization Disadvantages
"Unsuitable method for sterilization of anhydrous oils, greases and powders."

Full document:
http://www2.ncsu.edu/ncsu/ehs/www99/...ioSterDis.html


The World of Autoclaves article gives a partial explanation why:
The time required to kill a known population of microorganisms in a specific suspension at a particular temperature is referred to as thermal death time (TDT). However, fats and oils slow heat penetration and increase TDT.

Full article:
http://esf.uvm.edu/uvmsafety/labsafe...utoclaves.html


Dry Heat Sterilization:
-Sterilization in the absence of water.
-Oven heated at 160 to 170 ° C for 2 to 3 hours.

Full article:
http://www.uta.edu/biology/badon/cla...ecture%206.pdf


DRY HEAT STERILIZATION:
Equipment: Oven
Method: Dry heat sterilization is carried out at 160 deg C. to 170 deg C. for 2 to 4 hrs.
Application: Glassware, Fixed oils, Thermostable powders

STEAM STERILIZATION:
Equipment: Autoclave
Disadvantages: 1. Cannot use for oily preparation (oil base ointment)

http://webusers.xula.edu/tmandal/pha...cs/STERILZ.PPT


"Fats and oils have a great protective effect on microorganisms and their spores by
interfering with the penetration of wet heat. As has been noted, wet heat at a given temperature is more lethal
than dry heat, because moisture is an effective conductor of heat and penetrates into microbial cells and spores.
If microorganisms are trapped within fat globules, then moisture can less readily penetrate into the cells and
heating becomes more like dry heat."

http://www.vhall.nl/International/Ch...eservation.pdf


Biosafety Program - STERILIZATION

"The advantage of wet heat is a better heat transfer to and into the cell resulting in overall shorter exposure time and lower temperature. Steam sterilization uses pressurized steam at 121-132° C (250-270° F) for 30 or 40 minutes. This type of heat kills all microbial cells including spores, which are normally heat resistant. In order to accomplish the same effect with dry heat in an oven, the temperature needs to be increased to 160-170° C (320-338° F) for periods of 2 to 4 hours."

Full article here:
http://www.lbl.gov/ehs/biosafety/Bio...lization.shtml


Standard Conditions for Sterilization

Dry Heat Sterilization

* 170° C (340° F)
* 1 hour (total cycle time—placing instruments in oven, heating to 170° C, timing for 1 hour, and then cooling—is from 2–2½ hours)

OR

* 160° C (320° F)
* 2 hours (total cycle time is from 3–3½ hours)
* Ideal for instruments with cutting edges and other sharps (e.g., scissors, scalpel blades, needles)

Exposure time begins only after the oven has reached the specified temperature.

Full article here:
http://www.reproline.jhu.edu/english...lti/pg/ip2.htm


Finally here is an advertisement for an ALL AMERICAN Electric Autoclave Model 25X, a $750 Sterilizer/Autoclave. Which says very clearly in the last line, "Not to be used to sterilize oils and powders."

So if you're counting on autoclaving/pressure cooking or baking (at any temp/time that wont fry your gear) to give you a sterile oil based product, think again.

Thanks, that is convincing data indeed, I have seen some of those findings earlier, autoclave have been used for decades, but things are changing constantly.

some hope, that with some amount of BA in oil autoclave still an option.

Personally I'm using pressure cooker for small amounts like 3-5 vials and never had a problem with 2%BA in oil.

[Zetawill]

Great advice everyone!!!

Max and Razor...THANKS GUYS....I use the pressure cooker for the amount that I'm using too. Ba is at 2% as well! Jeez dry heat would cause fall out on tren after about 30 minutes.

Using the .45's helped a lot as well as creating negative pressure in the bottle, the way the hand pumps do. It's drip, drip dripping as we speak.

BTW, I legitimately have cattle and the way the tren tablets are pressed there really isn't any glues in the tabs (maybe some filler/binders, that shouldn't be harmful if they happen to be injected). The processing of the tablets is not the cleanest and I filter not because of glues, but because it is in the same atmosphere as a lot of other products.

The only thing filtering seems to do for me is making it less painful and less cough. Wonder if anyone else has the same experience.

[thepump]

If I am not supposed to post websites, let me or just remove the post.
http://www.basskilleronline.com/finaplix_directions_03shtml This is the best website and this url is the best step by step directions of the website. Been doing it for 5 years now and out of all the sites this is by far the easiest way to make tren. It's like a pop up book LOL for Tren A.

It pretty much answers all of your questions, but as far as speeding up the filtering it does suck, takes forever, but have patience so you don't waste your finaplix tablets. LOL

Bump for all the tren lovers.:bowdown: Tren is probably closest substance to making a human being feel like superman.

[Zetawill]

Thanks pump.....I've been using that guys site too, just originally thought the .45 was to big of pores, so that was the only thing I changed......moral of the story is to follow the recipe.

[BULLDOZER]

between a .22 filter and BA I don't see the problem unless you are making the stuff in your bathroom.

[basskiller]

Thanks pump.....I've been using that guys site too, just originally thought the .45 was to big of pores, so that was the only thing I changed......moral of the story is to follow the recipe.
yea.. he's pretty cool kind of guy...LOL

[SuperSnake]

Definitely go with bottle top filters, syringe filters take way too long.

X2...

[TheTransformator]

Why not buy some trusted UG lab Tren...they probably have a better setup than your own small scale operation...quite a big risk getting your tren this way...infection risks...