Equipped or RAW - Might As Well Start the Debate!

[Adam Zehr]

I personally have lifted both equipped and non-equipped and love both. I am a bench specialist and in my case, my raw bench is more impressive than my shirted bench so I have been sticking with the raw lifting lately. I have never been able to master the shirt game and have much respect for those who have. As long as you are lifting heavy and enjoy it, do your thing in my opinion.

[robert da strongman]

poll added...vote and voice your opinion!

[David]

Are you going to wear a belt, knee wraps, and bench shirt outside the gym when you're lifting something heavy? -- then why wear it in the gym?

I say RAW.

[tjoe]

Are you going to wear a belt, knee wraps, and bench shirt outside the gym when you're lifting something heavy? -- then why wear it in the gym?

I say RAW.Same reason Lance Armstrong spends hours in wind tunnels testing new Nike gear. So he can go faster and be more aerodynamic because that is what his side of the sport is all about. When I rode a bike (years ago :p) I did not go to those extremes. I wore shorts and a T shirt.

PLing is the same thing. Some want to go extreme and see what they can do on a specific "movement". The same case could be made for juiced/drug free PLers. It's just a matter of personal choice I suppose.

As for me, I would have to say raw. I have tried a (very cheap) bench shirt and did better raw! To be fair to the "use of equipment" group, I had no one to show me how to adapt to a shirt AND had not been training for it anyway (was doing 1hr. of cardio every day about 6 weeks prior to trying out the shirt). Never tried a squat/dead suit. Currently into strongman stuff, but maybe in the future I will give it a shot. I do have access to a dbl ply inzer phenom that just happens to be my size...

[robert da strongman]

i will get a deadlift suit for strongman

[billy mimnaugh]

Its all powerlifting.Everyone should lift the way they want.Thats why its good there are choices,RAW,SINGLE PLY,MULTY PLY,TESTED,NOT TESTED.Its a great time to powerlift.You can try different things,or just stick to what you like.

[greuceanu]

I like raw,IPF approved weights and rules of execution (except sumo deadlift:)), that's the real test of strength IMO and the only standard to properly compare lifters of all eras. But i'm not bagging on equipped lifting either, everyone is free to do whatever they want.

I'd like it though if equipped lifters would always mention their gear and the federation they lifted in.I'd also like it if they only claimed records in their own federation, not all time records.

[David]

Same reason Lance Armstrong spends hours in wind tunnels testing new Nike gear. So he can go faster and be more aerodynamic because that is what his side of the sport is all about. When I rode a bike (years ago :p) I did not go to those extremes. I wore shorts and a T shirt.

I think the difference here is that the wind tunnels make it more difficult to cycle whereas the PL equipment makes it easier to lift.

As far as the special Nike cycling clothing, I don't think that is the same analogy. PLing translates into lifting heavy stuff outside the gym, whereas cycling doesn't translate into anything other than cycling (at least not that I can think of), so there is no reason not to wear the more efficient clothing.

[tjoe]

I think the difference here is that the wind tunnels make it more difficult to cycle whereas the PL equipment makes it easier to lift.the wind tunnel is just to see how the clothing is working.

As far as the special Nike cycling clothing, I don't think that is the same analogy. PLing translates into lifting heavy stuff outside the gym,for some maybe... but many could care less about outside the gym. they lift to hit new numbers, not to move their buddies couch. I don't think any of Louies guys are training the way they do to be stronger for their outside lives. They are doing it because it's their sport, just like Lance cycles. whereas cycling doesn't translate into anything other than cycling (at least not that I can think of), so there is no reason not to wear the more efficient clothing.in quote.

[David]

Yea I suppose if someone plans to make it their sport then that's cool.

I don't plan to ever compete in PLing though, so that skewers my point of view. Plus I think it sounds more impressive to say raw.

[robert da strongman]

equipment is no different than batting gloves and pine tar.
use it or dont your choice

[billy mimnaugh]

I like raw,IPF approved weights and rules of execution (except sumo deadlift:)), that's the real test of strength IMO and the only standard to properly compare lifters of all eras. But i'm not bagging on equipped lifting either, everyone is free to do whatever they want.

I'd like it though if equipped lifters would always mention their gear and the federation they lifted in.I'd also like it if they only claimed records in their own federation, not all time records.

I have to disagree with you here.There is NO WAY you can compare an INZER RAGE X bench shirt or a T-REX squat suit to yesterdays INZER chamion suits or blast shirts.The single ply of today is the double ply of 8 years ago.Its really not even close.Eddy Coan wore the old gear ,if he was in the IPF today with the new gear he would total close to 2600lbs at 220.

[greuceanu]

I have to disagree with you here.There is NO WAY you can compare an INZER RAGE X bench shirt or a T-REX squat suit to yesterdays INZER chamion suits or blast shirts.The single ply of today is the double ply of 8 years ago.Its really not even close.Eddy Coan wore the old gear ,if he was in the IPF today with the new gear he would total close to 2600lbs at 220.

You've actually agreed with me and made my point. What i stated was that the only way to properly compare pure strength of lifters from different eras was to compare their raw numbers, since the equipment is so much different now and the numbers are also influenced by their skill in using it.

You might have gotten confused because i mentioned IPF approved weights and maybe you assumed i meant the IPF approved gear. I meant IPF approved weights-plates, bars. And IPF rules of execution of lifts, because their standards are clearly enforced and not debatable.

[billy mimnaugh]

You've actually agreed with me and made my point. What i stated was that the only way to properly compare pure strength of lifters from different eras was to compare their raw numbers, since the equipment is so much different now and the numbers are also influenced by their skill in using it.

You might have gotten confused because i mentioned IPF approved weights and maybe you assumed i meant the IPF approved gear. I meant IPF approved weights-plates, bars. And IPF rules of execution of lifts, because their standards are clearly enforced and not debatable.

How can raw numbers be compared when NO powerlifter over the past thirty years has competed raw.From Kaz,to Coan to Gillingham,they were all in gear.I think we should just respect the numbers legends put up in their eras.Reinholdt was grea,Kaz was great,Eddy was great,the guys of today are great.Legends live on.Records come and go but the greats remain forevor.

[greuceanu]

How can raw numbers be compared when NO powerlifter over the past thirty years has competed raw.From Kaz,to Coan to Gillingham,they were all in gear.I think we should just respect the numbers legends put up in their eras.Reinholdt was grea,Kaz was great,Eddy was great,the guys of today are great.Legends live on.Records come and go but the greats remain forevor.

Kazmaier and Reinhouldt competed raw. People make comparisons all the time and you can't be comparing lifters from different eras if they use gear.
Either make no comparisons, or just use the raw numbers. Everything else is estimates.

[tjoe]

I think what billy is saying is that wethewr they went raw or geared the point is that they were ALL great at what "they" decided to do. which means their accomplishments still stand.

Kaz only won WSM 3x but that was because he wasn't invited back again... He surely would have taken home some more (which is speculative) but that does not diminish the fact that he was one of the Greatest strongmen ever!

I saw Mendy hit the best all time raw record
Kennelly has the best geared bench
it dosen't really mean one is better than the other, jst that that they are both among the best on the road they decided to travel.

[greuceanu]

I think what billy is saying is that wethewr they went raw or geared the point is that they were ALL great at what "they" decided to do. which means their accomplishments still stand.


Sure,i never said otherwise, they are great. But powerlifting is about comparisons, it's about comparing who's stronger than who,comparisons are made all the time.

All i'm saying is the only way you can properly compare people from different eras is raw, because equipment has changed leaps and bounds. The rules in some feds have become more lax too,that's why i was talking about the IPF standard.

And Joe, i asked you something on a thread below.

[realmccoy]

I prefer equipment now a days since it proves me with a little more protection when I am lifting.

[robert da strongman]

I prefer equipment now a days since it proves me with a little more protection when I am lifting.

that is one thing i have heard a lot about equipment.
keeps you lifting longer.

[robert da strongman]

does anyone see a crossover of strength? your raw lifts are better because of the equipment...

[greuceanu]

does anyone see a crossover of strength? your raw lifts are better because of the equipment...

As far as i know your raw lifts don't get better and in some cases get worse.

But i haven't used gear,so admittedly i could be wrong.

[Viking]

Raw baby!!!

[weightgain4000]

Using gear for the squat and bench feels damn good! Hate gear with a passion for pulling.

[billy mimnaugh]

Kazmaier and Reinhouldt competed raw. People make comparisons all the time and you can't be comparing lifters from different eras if they use gear.
Either make no comparisons, or just use the raw numbers. Everything else is estimates.

Kazmire NEVER did a major meet without a squat suit or wraps.He benched raw but squatted in gear and I believe he pulled in a suit as well.Only Reinhouldt competed raw.So,thats one guy,out of thousands.Pretty tought to compare those numbers.

[BK]

does anyone see a crossover of strength? your raw lifts are better because of the equipment...
If you increase your raw strength levels then this will transfer over to suited lifting. Raw strength levels don't really change too much if you train with gear. If it does regress then it comes back very quickly if you train raw for a few weeks.

[BK]

As far as competing raw or with gear, to each his own. Several of your top lifters have done both successfully. My personal opininon is I would much rather see a 1,000 lb squat then a 700lb raw squat.

[greuceanu]

Kazmire NEVER did a major meet without a squat suit or wraps.He benched raw but squatted in gear and I believe he pulled in a suit as well.Only Reinhouldt competed raw.So,thats one guy,out of thousands.Pretty tought to compare those numbers.

Kazmaier still holds the total raw record: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Kazmaier

And records can only be established in major meets.

But say you are right and there's too few raw lifters to compare, then no comparisons should be done at all between different eras.

Every time someone claims an all time record, it implies that they are stronger than any predecessor, which is not exactly accurate. You can't compare a pole jumper with a high jumper, even if the high jumper uses some bouncing shoes that give him and extra 5 inches to his jump.

[weightgain4000]

As far as competing raw or with gear, to each his own. Several of your top lifters have done both successfully. My personal opininon is I would much rather see a 1,000 lb squat then a 700lb raw squat.

x2!

[Skeptic]

Are you going to wear a belt, knee wraps, and bench shirt outside the gym when you're lifting something heavy? -- then why wear it in the gym?

With all due respect, this may be the stupidest thing I have ever heard with respect to the sport of powerlifting. Are we to understand that you expect pole vaulters to use their gear to jump the fence on the way to do the shopping, or discus throwers to use their gear to hunt, or long distance cyclists to commute 240 miles round trip every day?

It's a frackin' SPORT.

[Skeptic]

As far as competing raw or with gear, to each his own. Several of your top lifters have done both successfully. My personal opininon is I would much rather see a 1,000 lb squat then a 700lb raw squat.!

I am interested in both. What performance can we squeeze out of this beast we call the human?

[Foreman_Rules]

Raw lifts are the only truth.

[Colossal]

I am a RAW-only lifter.

I did one bench-only meet with a shirt, and while I liked shirted benching I just prefer to lift RAW.

It comes down to your lifting philosophy. In my opinion, I don't think suited lifts are true lifts. The equipment is doing a significant portion of mechanical work, whereas RAW, it's all you. No tinkering with your shirt and missing lifts because you cant get the groove right.

There is also a lot of debate as to what actually constitutes RAW. Belt only? Belt and wraps? No belt, no wraps?? Personally I consider a belt a safety precaution. Wraps are optional; I use wrist wraps and that's it. Knee wraps can add a good 15-20 lbs to a squat, so you could argue it's not RAW.

But again, it's lifting philosophy. I don't look down on equipped lifting, it's just not my thing. I do use anabolics, however; and some people have VERY strong opinions about that. One could say I'm not truly "raw" because I juice. In the end it's still my body doing 100% of the work...at least that's how I look at it.

Luckily with powerlifting there is a division for every preference.

[crashcrew56]

I enjoy both, I think a 900lb raw squat is just as impressive as a 1200lb equipped squat, and the same things goes for bench. Well then again watching someone hold over 1000lbs in their hands is just unreal, I don't care what people have to say about the shirts 1000lbs in the hands is insane.

What is raw anyways? There are so many different things that can give an advantage. Shoes, bars, wraps, belts, chalk, tork, racks, etc. The list goes on and on.

[bad bad leroy brown]

Who cares.....at the end of the day, we're all fucking lifters.

[Deltasaurus]

IMO All lifting should be RAW

What you can lift without the assistance of anything.

I say chalk is ok because it keeps your hands dry.

But I draw the line their no shirts or briefs only safety equipment if u want it like wraps and belts

my .02 cents

[Sandpig]

I enjoy both,

I don't care what people have to say about the shirts 1000lbs in the hands is insane.



I gotta agree with you on both points.