Women and Testosterone

[Lee Penman]

How do you feel about the use of testosterone in women's bodybuilding?
Anyone willing to share personal experiences/observations?

[tammyp]

as i say...theres use and abuse. little can go a long way.

[GirlyMuscle]

Can I ask a question? This might be more appropriate for the womens steriod thread but I'll ask anyway.

Are all aas male hormones? Meaning testosterone? So what's the difference between testosterone and say anavar or deca or any other that's not called test. Isn't it all testosterone?

[Tatyana]

Can I ask a question? This might be more appropriate for the womens steriod thread but I'll ask anyway.

Are all aas male hormones? Meaning testosterone? So what's the difference between testosterone and say anavar or deca or any other that's not called test. Isn't it all testosterone?

What most people think of as anabolic steroids are derivatives of one of three forms of androgens, testosterone, dihydrotestosterone and androstendione.

The various steroids just have an additional 'tail' or R group, generally to prevent it from being metabolised as quickly, or missing the first pass through the liver (the C17-alkylated oral steroids).

However, oestrogen is also anabolic. It is scientific fact that cattle put on far more muscle when given tren and oestrogen implants than just oestrogen alone.

Most male BBers also know that if they use too many oestrogen inhibitors, they minimise their gains.

The conversion of the sex steroids, testosterone and oestrogen is also a reversible reaction, meaning that one can become the other.


It is quite amazing when you see how they (the sex hormones and precursors) are all very structurally similar.
http://www.medscape.com/content/2000/00/41/05/410576/art-smj9307.02.fig3.jpg
http://jerrymondo.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/testosterone-synthesis.jpg

[GirlyMuscle]

Tatyana, sweetie, I know you think you just answered my question but I have no clue what you just said. Can you simplify more?

Are all aas some form of testosterone? And if so what makes the ones not labeled test different from the ones that are test?

[Skeptic]

Are all aas some form of testosterone?

No.

[GirlyMuscle]

So if a woman is using anavar or primo or winny she's NOT putting male hormones into her body?

[SallyAnne]

as i say...theres use and abuse. little can go a long way.

I agree with this. ...and by a little, I mean a very little - but again, effects of sides and gains are so dependent on the woman taking the compound.

[Tatyana]

Tatyana, sweetie, I know you think you just answered my question but I have no clue what you just said. Can you simplify more?

Are all aas some form of testosterone? And if so what makes the ones not labeled test different from the ones that are test?

Yes, they are all forms of testosterone.

Testosterone is one of the 'male' androgens. The three major androgens are testosterone, dihydrotestosterone (DHT), and androstendione.

All synthesised anabolic steroids are based off one of the three androgens, it is sort of like having a basic design for a car and then adding extras to make them go faster or go further, not break down as quickly as the original car (testosterone).

They give new names to the synthesised steroids if they have a different chemical structure, sort of like calling it a corvette or a corvette 211, or a corvette 211 GT.

Is that better? :)

[Tatyana]

No.

Elaborate on that please.

[GirlyMuscle]

So what makes it a big deal to go from anavar, primo or winny to test? I guess I'm not understanding the difference between anavar/primo/etc, (which is test) and the stuff labeled test.

[Tatyana]

So what makes it a big deal to go from anavar, primo or winny to test? I guess I'm not understanding the difference between anavar/primo/etc, (which is test) and the stuff labeled test.


The issue with testosterone is that it will aromatise to dihydrotestosterone (DHT).

DHT is something like 20-40 (sorry going from my memory) times as potent as testosterone.

Anavar does not aromatise, which makes it less androgenic.

Primo does not aromatise either.

Winny is a derivative of DHT, but not as potent.

If you took test suspension, it has a really short half life, so I don't think it would apply, however all the other testosterones, cyp, enanthate etc, have a long or short tail attached to them to avoid being broken down in the liver so they have a longer half life than test.

I don't really know the differences between the different types of test off the top of my head.

I did make a boo boo with the three androgens though, androstendione is not the third anabolic derivative, it is nandrolone.

[GirlyMuscle]

Bingo! Lightbulb is on! I get it now. Thanks, Tats!!

[Skeptic]

Elaborate on that please.

Your answer was too technical and my answer was obviously too brief. :D

I was just quoting John Romano from his recent interview on HMR where he points oot that most people think all AASs are derived from testosterone whereas some are derived from androstendione or nandrolone or some other thing.

[Tatyana]

Your answer was too technical and my answer was obviously too brief. :D

I was just quoting John Romano from his recent interview on HMR where he points oot that most people think all AASs are derived from testosterone whereas some are derived from androstendione or nandrolone or some other thing.

:)

For this thread, women and testosterone, for the most part, women are putting a derivative of testosterone in their bodies when they take an anabolic steroid.

It is a more elaborate discussion if they are taking test cyp, test enanthate, test prop, or test suspension specifically.

[tammyp]

im with you erin....talk to me like me im 2! the science of it all gets over my head. but thanks to Tat for knowing it and explaining it so well.

that is why var primo and win are considered "womens" drugs.

[Lee Penman]

It all comes down to anabolic to androgenic ratios. Some steroids are higher on the anabolic side with less androgenic effects - thus considered more suitable for women. Testosterone compounds are 100% androgenic.
Now do any of you want to share your experiences with test use (e.g Prop, Cyp, Enth, Sust). I am currently putting a two part article together on the subject if you wonder why I am being so nosey(lol!)

[GirlyMuscle]

Sorry if I took over your thread. No experience here. :o

[Tatyana]

There is one woman that I know of on this board who occasionally posts who took test cyp. She loved it, she said it made her feel calm.

All I can do is help you with your essay is from women I know who have tried test from the internet. This is a woman who was asking about test suspension, she was a power athlete.


Im asking people who are looking for the same things as I am, strenght and size, not someone who is going through a sex change, haha :D

The reason I posted was because I wanted to hear from women who have experience with test!! I already know test is not reccomended for women (usually this is the advice I get from men though..) but women DO use it, and I KNOW many get what THEY are looking for!

And they are not looking for what men (average joe) are looking for in a woman, the "Jessica Simpson look". Women on "heavy" roids don't do it to look attractive to men, they do it to be what THEY like and want to be, at least I am. Just to get it straigh.. 99,9% of men have a look that I cant stand, so what they think of me doesnt matter at all, I JUST DON*T CARE, its my body :)

BUT, I like your primo/var reccomendation :) I will be running it later this year (I alredy had it planned! :) ) The reason I am looking for test susp is exactly because it clears quickly and has a short detection time, that is perfect for an athlete who can be tested at any time. Any onther cycle takes a lot of planning to avoid drug testing..

AND, I dont see the forearm growth as a side, its a HUGE pluss! Haha :) I get your point, but this just aren't what I hear from women who have experience with the stuff :) They look past many of these sides, because the gains are worth it. I want REAL stories, not something from a book :)
But still thanks for your input, I appreciate it! :)



my wife is currently on 12 mg of test e per week, and she has been doing this for over a year with no sides beside engorged clit which she is more then happy about. Her overview on life has actually heightened. More energy, stronger sex drive, time spent in the gym is much more radical and fun. It has truly been a success story for her. We did have to experiment with what dose was right for her, to much and her voice began to deepen as her vocal cords began to tighten/swell, but quickly reversed. She also experience some hair loss at higher levels, but when she backed it down, it stopped. For her, test is far superior to orals all together. If I can help, let me know.

[tammyp]

what is a normal dose for women and test?

[sassy69]

Also do you need to give consideration to the progesterone effect?

[Lee Penman]

Sorry if I took over your thread. No experience here. :o
No need to apologize! Feedback and discussion is what this thread is all about and I am glad it has prompted both!

[Sistersteel]

Never run test without an AI. SERMs are not going to cut it.

[sassy69]

Never run test without an AI. SERMs are not going to cut it.

Where SERM = nolvadex and AI = aromatase inhibitor (e.g. arimidex)

[Sistersteel]

Where SERM = nolvadex and AI = aromatase inhibitor (e.g. arimidex)

You and I were talking about that actually not too long ago sass.

[tammyp]

Never run test without an AI. SERMs are not going to cut it.

reason being what?

[Sistersteel]

reason being what?


Reason being that test aromatizes in women just like it does in men. In pre-menopausal women with functional ovaries and with the body constantly trying to get back into a homeostatic state, you can only imagine what the increase in estrogen is like in a women on test who is not conscious of the fact that test actually does aromatize, contrary to what most of us have been conditioned to believe. Sort of along the same lines as the myth that women do not need to run PCT. If you think about it, logically, and without having to get into the medical aspect of things, if you are supplementing the body with a compound it produces naturally on its own, then the body will cease production of that particular hormone because it sees no need to produce it. That applies to women just as it applies to men. But most people tell women not to worry about PCT because test production in a women is of little to no importance if you are ignorant of the endless benefits that test has on the female endocrine system. Most experienced male users will tell you that they would never inhibit estrogen production from the body because the presence of estrogen actually has a positive impact on physique manipulation, to a certain extent. Controlling excess estrogen that is produces through aromatization is important, however inhibiting estrogen production completely is not advisable. Similarly, women need their natural test just as much as men need their natural estrogen. If you take a look at hormone replacement therapy in women, the future is treating menopause with test rather than an abundance of estrogen and progesterone.

I have worked with many women and through the years have been able to draw some very interesting conclusions in regards to how the female endocrine system reacts to anabolic steroids. The reason I recommend an AI is because an anti E is hardly enough to control the effects that this abundance of estrogen is producing in the body. Now granted many women have been able to get into contest shape running test, and will drop the compound however many week out depending on the length of the ester to drop excess water weight etc, but most women do not know how much harder they have made it on themselves to actually get in shape.

I personally love test. It was always on the top of my list of favorites. My skin is beautiful on test, my hair is thick, curly and healthy, my nails are beautiful, I am very even tempered, always in a good mood, sex drive is great..yada yada yada.....BUT...test has dramatically changed the way my body looks and how I carry my fat. In time, excess test will add inches to your waistline and if you choose to run test in your offseason, you will need to be extremely diet conscious as holding on to fat is far easier, especially if you are not running an AI or SERM, which most competitors do not do in the offseason and save for prep.

However, offseasons are generally the phase to put on size, and a little fat gain is not a bad thing. As you know, its almost impossible to put on muscle without fat. Just be cognizant of the fat to muscle ratio, and if you must run test in the offseason, a SERM is certainly sufficient.

I have studied this in depth and have even gone as far as discussing test usage with doctors who monitor transgender hormonal therapy. Believe it or not, its takes only 80mg of test/week introduced into the female system to change her genetic makeup and hormonal composition to that of the average male. I know women who have used twice that amount thinking they were not causing any internal damage as long as they had the external sides in check. That is the price women pay for ignorance and lack of personal experience.

As much as I love test, I did not realize the dramatic changes in my physique until It was a little too late. With as wide as my back is, my physique does not flow as much as it used to anymore because my waist has gotten wider. I also do not hold my fat the way I used to anymore and have a hard time getting my abs in even though my legs are shredded year round. My abs used to be the first thing to pop up.

I generally would not advise women to run any drugs that aromatize, period. I personally do not run test anymore and quite honestly, the only thing that I miss is the self confidence. It never did anything for my strength and only made it hard to get in shape.


I can go on and on forever. Sorry for the lengthy response. I was trying to be thorough. I hope this has helped.

Respect,

SS

[GirlyMuscle]

Very interesting post SS. I think this is exactly what Leigh was looking for...your experiences, so don't apologize.

[Blondell]

I can go on and on forever. Sorry for the lengthy response. I was trying to be thorough. I hope this has helped.

Respect,

SS
Very interesting post, SS. Thanks for the info!

[Sistersteel]

Well, this might sound funny, but I will never volunteer information if I am not asked to. I try to be humble and respectful of the competitors and pros on the boards who have been doing this far longer than I have. I am sure many might disagree with me on certain things, as everyone has a different approach, but drugs are a passion of mine, lol, and so I have invested quite a bit of time studying them. :)

[Tatyana]

Let's see if I have this right:

Any anabolics that aromatise to oestrogen are going to stop oestrogen production because of negative feedback.

Anti-oestrogens and SERMS are probably not going to stop endogenous (our own natural) oestrogen production to the same extent.

If women are going to run test, then they could use some form of PCT like Clomid, which is going to increase LH/FSH production, which in turn is going to get the ovaries to start to produce oestrogen again.

[SallyAnne]

Well, this might sound funny, but I will never volunteer information if I am not asked to. I try to be humble and respectful of the competitors and pros on the boards who have been doing this far longer than I have. I am sure many might disagree with me on certain things, as everyone has a different approach, but drugs are a passion of mine, lol, and so I have invested quite a bit of time studying them. :)

I appreciate your openness honesty on the subject, SS. I learned something new - I did not know that 80mg a week of test would change our genentic makeup. That is an eye opener.

[GirlyMuscle]

Just curious....how much test does the average woman run? Generally speaking of course. For example I know women usually do 10-15 mg anavar with some higher or lower. What about test?

[SallyAnne]

Just curious....how much test does the average woman run? Generally speaking of course. For example I know women usually do 10-15 mg anavar with some higher or lower. What about test?

I have talked to women who have run anywhere from 5mg EOD to 30mg ED. Obviously, I think the low number is the better one.

I personally have nothing against women trying any kind of AAS - I'm just a big believer in the "less is more" theory. Unfortunately, many people feel that "more is better" - and that's when they run into problems.



Tatyana -how much testosterone does a female body produce? Say, a woman in their 20's compared to a woman in her late 30's to 40's?

[Tatyana]

I appreciate your openness honesty on the subject, SS. I learned something new - I did not know that 80mg a week of test would change our genentic makeup. That is an eye opener.

Hey, we could have male chromosomes, XY, instead of the female XX and still be 'normal' females.

Why do you think I am such a science geek, it is so interesting and mind expanding.

:)

[Tatyana]

I have talked to women who have run anywhere from 5mg EOD to 30mg ED. Obviously, I think the low number is the better one.

I personally have nothing against women trying any kind of AAS - I'm just a big believer in the "less is more" theory. Unfortunately, many people feel that "more is better" - and that's when they run into problems.



Tatyana -how much testosterone does a female body produce? Say, a woman in their 20's compared to a woman in her late 30's to 40's?

More of our testosterone is made in our adrenal glands, rather than our ovaries (although a small amount is made there).

I have never seen an aged base reference range for women and testosterone.

It stands to reason that we don't stop making testosterone. I think that is one of the reasons why older women get thicker through the waist, and why we see little old grannies with beards. :)

We typically have: (I am using various units as they do get reported differently):

Female

International/SI: 0.2-3.5 nmol/L

US: 6-100 ng/dL

OR

58-1010 pg/mL

Just to compare this to male reference ranges

Male

International/SI: 10-35 nmol/L

US: 288-1010 ng/dL

OR

2884-10,095 pg/mL.

[Tre]

I used to be opposed to 'straight test' use for (most) women.

Now, though, I say you should take whatever you need to look good. If it's working for you, it doesn't matter at all that it might not be working for someone else.

[bndniron4evrgal]

Reason being that test aromatizes in women just like it does in men. In pre-menopausal women with functional ovaries and with the body constantly trying to get back into a homeostatic state, you can only imagine what the increase in estrogen is like in a women on test who is not conscious of the fact that test actually does aromatize, contrary to what most of us have been conditioned to believe.

what about POST-MENOPAUSAL WOMEN (full hysterectomy inc. ovaries)??

[Sistersteel]

Let's see if I have this right:

Any anabolics that aromatise to oestrogen are going to stop oestrogen production because of negative feedback.

Anti-oestrogens and SERMS are probably not going to stop endogenous (our own natural) oestrogen production to the same extent.

If women are going to run test, then they could use some form of PCT like Clomid, which is going to increase LH/FSH production, which in turn is going to get the ovaries to start to produce oestrogen again.

If you want to understand aromatization better and the rate at which your body is undergoing this conversion, you can measure estradiol concentration in the blood through specific blood work. Estradiol is very strong at LH/FSH suppression, so hypothetically speaking, clomid is a good option to jump start estrogen production. That isa correct analogy. While running a non armotazing drug cycle, even though your natural test production is decreased by a very insignifacnt amount, estradiol is low because endogenous production is affected. We know that most of our estrogen is produced in the ovaries (which is why these theories are specific to menstruating women), and so is estradiol. If estradiol is increased in a female, logically you will have a high degree of aromatization in the body due to the fact that the natural estradiol production in the ovaries is lowered while on aromatizing compounds.

SERMs do not inhibit out natural estrogen production. They simply bind to the receptors. That increases the concentration of free flowing estrogens in blood plasma while on armoatizing aas. An aromatize Inhibitor like Adex should be sufficient to control this problem while on a reasonable dose of supplemental testosterone. But then you have to deal with joint aches if you run it for too long, so smart cycling is key at knowing where, how and when to introduce any compound into your arsenal, to reap maximum benefits with minimum "collateral damage", so to speak.

SS

[Sistersteel]

I used to be opposed to 'straight test' use for (most) women.

Now, though, I say you should take whatever you need to look good. If it's working for you, it doesn't matter at all that it might not be working for someone else.


I personally do not think that is a good approach to things, Tre. You have to place your health before your looks always.. I am sure that is easier said than done coming from someone who does not compete in bodybuilding, such as myself. But I understand the demands and the pressures the sport places on competitors. Then again, it should be about longevity and long term goals and not instant gratification. The biggest problem most women face in this industry is impatience. I am guilty of wanting quick results too, but I have made choices in my life that have forced me to take a step back and slow things down. I find I can appreciate the jounrey a lot more now honestly.

[Sistersteel]

what about POST-MENOPAUSAL WOMEN (full hysterectomy inc. ovaries)??


Oh that is an entirely different ballgame. You guys are blessed. lol

[heavyiron]

Interesting thread, thank you to all the ladies.

[Tatyana]

what about POST-MENOPAUSAL WOMEN (full hysterectomy inc. ovaries)??

Your adrenal cortex is still going to make testosterone. It is also responsible for some oestrogen as well.

As you no longer are producing large amounts of oestrogen, I would think that the steroid hormones from your adrenal glands would take precidence, that is, if you are not on HRT.

I am going to cut and paste a science bit, let me know if it is comprehensible.




The two steroids produced in greatest quantities by the adrenal cortex, DHEA and its sulfate have an ill-defined role in normal physiology.

Together with androstenedione, they are generally termed ‘weak androgens’ and have a much lower affinity for the androgen receptor than testosterone.

These adrenal androgens are, however, converted peripherally to the more active testosterone.

In males, the amount released from the adrenal glands and converted to testosterone is physiologically insignificant compared to the amount secreted by the testes but, in females, adrenal-derived testosterone is important in maintaining normal pubic and axillary hair.


After the menopause, adrenal androgens may also be an important source of estradiol, again due to peripheral conversion. Adrenal androgen hypersecretion does not cause any clinical signs in adult males but is detectable in females by signs of hirsutism and masculinization.

[Tatyana]

If you want to understand aromatization better and the rate at which your body is undergoing this conversion, you can measure estradiol concentration in the blood through specific blood work.

Estradiol is very strong at LH/FSH suppression, so hypothetically speaking, clomid is a good option to jump start estrogen production. That isa correct analogy. While running a non armotazing drug cycle, even though your natural test production is decreased by a very insignifacnt amount, estradiol is low because endogenous production is affected. We know that most of our estrogen is produced in the ovaries (which is why these theories are specific to menstruating women), and so is estradiol. If estradiol is increased in a female, logically you will have a high degree of aromatization in the body due to the fact that the natural estradiol production in the ovaries is lowered while on aromatizing compounds.


SERMs do not inhibit out natural estrogen production. They simply bind to the receptors. That increases the concentration of free flowing estrogens in blood plasma while on armoatizing aas. An aromatize Inhibitor like Adex should be sufficient to control this problem while on a reasonable dose of supplemental testosterone. But then you have to deal with joint aches if you run it for too long, so smart cycling is key at knowing where, how and when to introduce any compound into your arsenal, to reap maximum benefits with minimum "collateral damage", so to speak.

SS


It would be fascinating to see some blood work of a woman while on some form of steroids, it must be out there as they have used them medically.

You would expect some of the same things that are found in men, lower LH/FSH, higher test levels, but what oestrogen and progesterone would do?...

The issue with women getting blood to monitor their hormones (pre-menopausal) is that they fluctuate so bloody much during the month, so if you want to see what is happening, it really has to be the same time after your period each time you have bloods done (typically 3-4 days or 21 days).


Have you ever used hCG for PCT? Or have you used one of the synthetic forms of LH/FSH?

[Sistersteel]

I personally do not like messing with fertility drugs. I have found over the counter estrovene to work just fine to help me bounce back.

[tammyp]

in your opinion sister steel, what are good on and off season cycles for a competitive female bber ?

[Tre]

I personally do not think that is a good approach to things, Tre. You have to place your health before your looks always.. I am sure that is easier said than done coming from someone who does not compete in bodybuilding, such as myself. But I understand the demands and the pressures the sport places on competitors. Then again, it should be about longevity and long term goals and not instant gratification. The biggest problem most women face in this industry is impatience. I am guilty of wanting quick results too, but I have made choices in my life that have forced me to take a step back and slow things down. I find I can appreciate the journey a lot more now honestly.
Thanks so much for sharing the science and the insight, SS.

Back in the day, I was the 'but what about your health' guy. But even though friendships have developed over the years and I certainly care more about the people I've known during that time, I have also come to realize that what drives the serious competitive bodybuilder is something I cannot comprehend with respect to what she (or he) is willing to put into her body. In the broadest terms possible, compromising long-term health is something a lot of elite-level persons in any field are willing to do for the glory right now.

You've referenced potency and its on that basis that my early opinions were formed. I didn't like what I considered the harshest external sides (having to shave one's face twice a day, for example) and I wasn't a big fan of the bass-like voices. A little raspiness was fine, but once it went past a certain level, I felt she'd done a disservice to herself.

But, those were her choices to make and it didn't matter whether I was turned off. Her choices were about trying to develop a muscular physique and not about trying to turn me on.

That being said, I agree with you 100% on the issue of impatience. I just had a long talk with a young woman about exactly that. She's in too much of a hurry and it shows. The sides are there, but the muscle quality (IMO) is not where it should be given what she's taken. She needs to slow it down, but is in love with the idea of getting as big as she can as quickly as she can and at whatever cost.

Sadly, her story is not unique.

[Sistersteel]

in your opinion sister steel, what are good on and off season cycles for a competitive female bber ?

Honestly, I think test with an SERM coupled with another anabolic compound you are comfortable with, is great for added strength and size in the offseason. Test and EQ, or Test and Primo, Test and NPP, NPP and EQ, even test, EQ and NPP for the more daring among us..all are very decent combinations. The gains you make on EQ, though small over extended periods of time, are easy to keep post cycle. That, in addition to the increase in red blood cell count, makes Test/EQ combo my first choice.

I would advise to run a maintenance phase after a bulker and design the diet to sustain the additional mass for a period no less than 6 months. That is how you reset your natural set point and get your body accustomed to carrying the added mass without any chemical aid in the long run. I am very big on long term results. I think transitioning from a bulker straight into a cutter is a complete waste. That is where women fall into the trap of using more in order to maintain new gains while dieting down. That can be avoided with a little patience and time. But unfortunately, many competitors compete every year, sometimes multiples shows a year, and now with the recent changes in National qualification, FBBs do not have the luxury of waiting 2 years to make their national debut anymore. That is actually hurting female bodybuilding in the long run, unfortunately. That is just my opinion. FBBs cannot take the time off they need to add quality mass without having to go overboard with chemical enhancement. More frequent competition, means more frequent dieting, which will inevitably lead to heavier drug use.

In terms of cutters, I would recommend a progesterone based androgen that does not convert along with an anti prolactin, an AI, your thyroids and GH. You can add proviron for an oral which will work synergystically with your SERM as per our discussion earlier.

Again, smart stacking is about running things that actually compliment each other rather than do the same thing.

That is my opinion.

SS

[NubianBeauty]

SS GREAT post!!! I love Test Prop... use only 25mg/wk. Yes I can grow on that (used 50mg once). I never felt better.

SS what you are referring to with long-term Test usage is the transformation from a female to male bodyfat distribution.I studied alot on transsexuals to try to get an understanding on how Test affects females. There's some REALLY interesting stuff on this. Wilson6 was always my go to guy for help on understanding Test and the female physique.. he turned me onto the studies and research on f-m transsexuals years ago. That guy help me tremendously.

[Sistersteel]

SS GREAT post!!! I love Test Prop... use only 25mg/wk. Yes I can grow on that (used 50mg once). I never felt better.

SS what you are referring to with long-term Test usage is the transformation from a female to male bodyfat distribution.I studied alot on transsexuals to try to get an understanding on how Test affects females. There's some REALLY interesting stuff on this. Wilson6 was always my go to guy for help on understanding Test and the female physique.. he turned me onto the studies and research on f-m transsexuals years ago. That guy help me tremendously.


WHO LOVES YOU MAMA?????!!!!
call me dammit!:bigkiss:

[NubianBeauty]

Post menopausal is an entirely new topic. I need to get W6 here for that discussion. That's another the two of us have often had. It is not as complicated that's for sure.

[NubianBeauty]

WHO LOVES YOU MAMA?????!!!!
call me dammit!:bigkiss: I did! Called and text in Feb! Gave you my new # since I got an iPhone. Same #?

[NubianBeauty]

In terms of cutters, I would recommend a progesterone based androgen that does not convert along with an anti prolactin, an AI, your thyroids and GH. You can add proviron for an oral which will work synergystically with your SERM as per our discussion earlier.

Again, smart stacking is about running things that actually compliment each other rather than do the same thing.

That is my opinion. Good opinion ;) Basically Winny or Tren (boogeyman word for women :eek: but I like it in very small amounts... are they ready for this SS :D ) along with Arimidex, T3, GH. Now what I have to ask about are the anti-prolactins... the only ones I can recall off the cuff are Bromocriptine (hate it!) and Dostinex (never used)... benefits/justification for use please?

[SallyAnne]

Hello, NB. I am very, very, very happy you are here. :)

[Sistersteel]

Good opinion ;) Basically Winny or Tren (boogeyman word for women :eek: but I like it in very small amounts... are they ready for this SS :D ) along with Arimidex, T3, GH. Now what I have to ask about are the anti-prolactins... the only ones I can recall off the cuff are Bromocriptine (hate it!) and Dostinex (never used)... benefits/justification for use please?


Where do I begin! lol
Simple chica. Show me a menstruating woman on AAS...legit AAS. ;)
Elevated prolactin suppresses ovulation by inhibiting the secretion of both FSH and gonadotropic releasing hormone. That results in amenorrhea and irregular periods.

Oral contraceptives or birth control result in elevated prolactin. God bless the IUD. Paraguard, non hormonal is the way to go.

Stress can raise prolactin levels (show me a FBB who is not stressed during prep). Elevated cortisol levels affect reproductive hormones, causing hormonal changes which lead to decreased thyroid function..and decreased thyroid function leadS to increased prolactin. I will elaborate in a minute. Just trying to create a vicious neverending cycle to help you understand where I am coming from.

Several medications and medical conditions raise prolactin levels. POS or Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome comes to mind. Pretty common among us FBBs who have been doing this a while. Polycycstic ovaries are hyperandrogenic, which means the ovaries are producing an excess amount of male hormones testosterone and androstendone. That is what causes hirutism or the increased hair growth that we all experience to certain degrees. God bless tweezers.

Certain antidepressants, painkillers, and opiates block dopamine, preventing prolactin secretion from being inhibited. Everyone is on something these days.. I know I am. lol

Hypothyroidism results in increased prolactin (the thyroid slows down when you supplement with thyroid drugs, which is fairly common in competitive bodybuilding. For example, when thyroid activity is low, the hypothalamus releases the hormone TRH to stimulate the pituitary to release thyroid-stimulating hormone TSH. Ironically, TRH triggers the release of prolactin, in addition to stimulating the pituitary release of TSH.

Plus, look at the lifestyle in general. The fluctuating weight and reduced fat stores leads to hormonal changes that can cause hypothyroidism, even if the athlete is not even using thyroid drugs at all! Then the vicious cycle begins again... and on and on.

Long stroy short, there is really no way around it. Ever heard of women lactating on tren? I see it ALL the time and I know you have to. Hello prolactin. Some people think that running nolva will take care of increaed prolactin. That could not be farther from the truth. Nolva is a SERM. As I mentioned earlier, nolva binds to the E2 receptor limiting E2 action at it's native receptor. Serms DO NOT bind to the Prolactin Receptor (PRL).

The only way to actually lower PRL is to increase the Pituitary's exposure to Dopamine.

So, you are correct with respect to Cabergoline or Bromocriptine. Bromo is great..but I will pick Dostinex over it anyday.

In Layman terms.....Use dostinex with your tren ladies. lol

Sorry for the lengthy response. Hope that was thorough enough. Some food for thought.

SS

[Lee Penman]

I am loving the responses here. The veil is really being removed here on RX - where else can you get THE TRUTH?!
Stand by for three new articles covering this very subject!

[NubianBeauty]

Hiya Sally!! :)

Yes I do know women who lactate while using Tren.. I never did. The first time I was told about it I literally LMAO. The things we do to ourselves.

Hmmm I don't think experienced women think Nolva combats prolactin. I think most who still use it just find that it's easier to get... and cheap! ;)

I've been looking into Pramipexole. I'm going to try it out soon.

[Tatyana]

Where do I begin! lol
Simple chica. Show me a menstruating woman on AAS...legit AAS. ;)
Elevated prolactin suppresses ovulation by inhibiting the secretion of both FSH and gonadotropic releasing hormone. That results in amenorrhea and irregular periods.

Oral contraceptives or birth control result in elevated prolactin. God bless the IUD. Paraguard, non hormonal is the way to go.

Stress can raise prolactin levels (show me a FBB who is not stressed during prep). Elevated cortisol levels affect reproductive hormones, causing hormonal changes which lead to decreased thyroid function..and decreased thyroid function leadS to increased prolactin. I will elaborate in a minute. Just trying to create a vicious neverending cycle to help you understand where I am coming from.

Several medications and medical conditions raise prolactin levels. POS or Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome comes to mind. Pretty common among us FBBs who have been doing this a while. Polycycstic ovaries are hyperandrogenic, which means the ovaries are producing an excess amount of male hormones testosterone and androstendone. That is what causes hirutism or the increased hair growth that we all experience to certain degrees. God bless tweezers.

Certain antidepressants, painkillers, and opiates block dopamine, preventing prolactin secretion from being inhibited. Everyone is on something these days.. I know I am. lol

Hypothyroidism results in increased prolactin (the thyroid slows down when you supplement with thyroid drugs, which is fairly common in competitive bodybuilding. For example, when thyroid activity is low, the hypothalamus releases the hormone TRH to stimulate the pituitary to release thyroid-stimulating hormone TSH. Ironically, TRH triggers the release of prolactin, in addition to stimulating the pituitary release of TSH.

Plus, look at the lifestyle in general. The fluctuating weight and reduced fat stores leads to hormonal changes that can cause hypothyroidism, even if the athlete is not even using thyroid drugs at all! Then the vicious cycle begins again... and on and on.

Long stroy short, there is really no way around it. Ever heard of women lactating on tren? I see it ALL the time and I know you have to. Hello prolactin. Some people think that running nolva will take care of increaed prolactin. That could not be farther from the truth. Nolva is a SERM. As I mentioned earlier, nolva binds to the E2 receptor limiting E2 action at it's native receptor. Serms DO NOT bind to the Prolactin Receptor (PRL).

The only way to actually lower PRL is to increase the Pituitary's exposure to Dopamine.

So, you are correct with respect to Cabergoline or Bromocriptine. Bromo is great..but I will pick Dostinex over it anyday.

In Layman terms.....Use dostinex with your tren ladies. lol

Sorry for the lengthy response. Hope that was thorough enough. Some food for thought.

SS

Great post.

I think it illustrates quite clearly how complex the endocrine system is, and this is only what we know so far.

You would think after the amount of time that we have been dissecting bodies, bleeding people and measuring every possible thing we can in as many situations as possible, we would know everything, but we don't.

We have discovered new hormones in the last 20-30 years, leptin, ghrelin, obestatin, resistin...

Ghrelin, the hunger hormone, and oestrogen trigger growth hormone release, high oestrogen is correlated to higher amounts of SHBG in your body, the interactions go on and on and on.

For the most part, people who are using performance enhancing drugs are pioneering petri dishes, there is no way any researcher would be the funding or approval to use these drugs.

It is thread like this that are just invaluble, and I want to thank all the women that are contributing to it, with questions and answers.

The overall message is do your research with any drug you take.

[NubianBeauty]

For the most part, people who are using performance enhancing drugs are pioneering petri dishes, there is no way any researcher would be the funding or approval to use these drugs.

It is thread like this that are just invaluble, and I want to thank all the women that are contributing to it, with questions and answers.

The overall message is do your research with any drug you take. So true!! :bowdown:

The only AAS research out there about women is f-m transsexuals, HIV (wasting), and anemia. While they're not particularly pertinent they are useful in some ways...

[tammyp]

this is a great thread....thank you for all your contributions!

what do you think women should AVOID?

[bndniron4evrgal]

Oh that is an entirely different ballgame. You guys are blessed. lol

why?

[Tatyana]

this is a great thread....thank you for all your contributions!

what do you think women should AVOID?

Most male trainers, BFs and husbands sorting out your cycles.

:)

[GirlyMuscle]

Most male trainers, BFs and husbands sorting out your cycles.

:)And if you are getting your info from men, it's up to YOU to STILL do the research and know the whats/whens/wheres of what you're putting in your body.

[Sistersteel]

this is a great thread....thank you for all your contributions!

what do you think women should AVOID?

CJC 1295
DNP
Insulin (unless you know what you are doing a diet religiously with no exceptions)
Cheque drops (rage in a pill)
Oral tren, unless its THG which Is a sublingual human grade tren...which you will never find anyway.
Oral EQ
Aromasin...there is a reason why its called the suicide AI

Besides that, most of us have dabbled with it all.


NB, what would you add to this list?

[Tatyana]

What is it about CJC 1295 that you don't like?

What about any other research peptides?

[Sistersteel]

What is it about CJC 1295 that you don't like?

What about any other research peptides?


Tat, CJC1295 makes the body produce more growth hormone without shutting natural production down. The amount produced is significantly higher than what you would usually supplement with.

I have research that proves that CJC increases GH production tenfold which makes it very risky for women (despite the great benefits of increased GH). The morphed faces of bodybuilders, including enlarged foreheads and brow ridge, along with the jaw squaring are all results of excess growth.....not steroids!

Any other particular peptides you have in mind? There are tons of them, with very few clinical studies, and only anecdotal evidence.

[Tatyana]

Tat, CJC1295 makes the body produce more growth hormone without shutting natural production down. The amount produced is significantly higher than what you would usually supplement with.

I have research that proves that CJC increases GH production tenfold which makes it very risky for women (despite the great benefits of increased GH). The morphed faces of bodybuilders, including enlarged foreheads and brow ridge, along with the jaw squaring are all results of excess growth.....not steroids!

Any other particular peptides you have in mind? There are tons of them, with very few clinical studies, and only anecdotal evidence.

GHRP-6

ILGF-1

and LR ILGF-1

[heavyiron]

Most male trainers, BFs and husbands sorting out your cycles.

:)
ouch! :)

[Tatyana]

ouch! :)

I said most.

:)

[heavyiron]

I said most.

:)
lol, just checking!

[Angela123]

this is a great thread. ss...im so glad you are here.

[Suzanne]

Aromasin...there is a reason why its called the suicide AI


can you elaborate?

[NubianBeauty]

CJC 1295
DNP
Insulin (unless you know what you are doing a diet religiously with no exceptions) I've also used Slin. :eek: Never over 5ius.... OK.. last time talking about it. :rolleyes:


NB, what would you add to this list? Sustanon, M1T, Esiclene, EPO, A50.

[Tatyana]

why?

Decreased oestrogen levels, while your adrenal glands will still be producing androgens.

Less oestrogen, less oestrogenic fat deposits, and the androgens can start to have more of a pronounced effect.

OR if you are on HRT, you can have more control over your hormones.

[Suzanne]

Decreased oestrogen levels, while your adrenal glands will still be producing androgens.

Less oestrogen, less oestrogenic fat deposits, and the androgens can start to have more of a pronounced effect.

OR if you are on HRT, you can have more control over your hormones.

I read you have more probs holding fat and gaining fat after menopause because of lack of estrogen. your body holds the fat as a way to get estrogen from fat cells

I FEAR menopasue which is right around the corner

[NubianBeauty]

I read you have more probs holding fat and gaining fat after menopause because of lack of estrogen. your body holds the fat as a way to get estrogen from fat cells Very true! This is also when women can go from a female to male bf distribution.

[Tatyana]

I don't think menopause is something to fear.

Just look at how many gorgeous girlies there are now that look great into their 60s.

It is also going to be different for women with a different muscle to bodyfat ratio.

Most women just start losing muscle mass at 30 and don't do anything to stave off it's loss.

This is also one major factor in the 'middle aged' spread (as well as the hormones).

[GirlyMuscle]

Tat..you're the scientist. Maybe you could start a new thread about menopause somewhere. At 44 yrs old I'd be very interested to hear how it will affect me and what I can do to stave off the undesireable parts. Sure I could ask my doctor but docs aren't up on the bbing scene. Maybe you could help us "old" chicks out. I promise to participate in that thread as I am experiencing pre-menopause shit now.

[NubianBeauty]

I don't think menopause is something to fear. It is also going to be different for women with a different muscle to bodyfat ratio.
Also very true. We won't have the issues (sides) most women do. And I'm going to put this out there... if you're an AAS user the 'change' will be even milder.

[Tatyana]

Tat..you're the scientist. Maybe you could start a new thread about menopause somewhere. At 44 yrs old I'd be very interested to hear how it will affect me and what I can do to stave off the undesireable parts. Sure I could ask my doctor but docs aren't up on the bbing scene. Maybe you could help us "old" chicks out. I promise to participate in that thread as I am experiencing pre-menopause shit now.


I have started to do some research on HRT, right now they are just notes from scientific papers.

I will have to finish the notes off and simplify the science speak.

[partsRheavy]

Very interesting comment about the 'change' being milder in an AAS user.

Brings up a question that I would like to ask.

Let's say a woman is in her mid-40s and has been lifting for several years. Has not been using hormonal birth control for several years, and is not using female HRT of any sort. At the moment, she's still having periods on a reasonably regular basis, with no major menopause symptoms yet except slightly erratic periods.

I'll write 4 different possible scenarios, although I'm most interested in the comparison between nos. 2 and 3.

What would the difference in her experience of menopause be under the four different scenarios below?

1) She's already been running 1 relatively mild cycle each year since age 30.

2) She starts a first (mild) cycle while in pre-menopause but before major menopause symptoms start.

3) She waits to start a first cycle until a year after her last period, i.e. after she's had the 'change.'

4) She never uses AAS.

I'm curious about preservation of strength as well as difference in menopause symptoms between the scenarios.

Assume that diet is pretty much the same for each case, and is properly proportionate to weight and muscle mass. Of course, the woman would have a few more years workout experience in case 3 where she waits a few more years before using any AAS.

Thanks for your insight!


.. And I'm going to put this out there... if you're an AAS user the 'change' will be even milder.

[Sistersteel]

can you elaborate?


Aromasin is a Type-I aromatase inhibitor also known as a suicidal aromatase inhibitor because it lowers estrogen production in the body by attaching to the aromatase enzyme and permanently deactivating it.

[Tatyana]

Aromasin is a Type-I aromatase inhibitor also known as a suicidal aromatase inhibitor because it lowers estrogen production in the body by attaching to the aromatase enzyme and permanently deactivating it.

I would think that eventually you would make more enzyme, as they do wear out and are replaced, but I just checked the manufacturer's site, and it isn't recommended for women who haven't undergone menopause.


Aromasin = Exemestane



Exemestane is an irreversible, steroidal aromatase inactivator, structurally related to the natural substrate androstenedione.

It acts as a false substrate for the aromatase enzyme, and is processed to an intermediate that binds irreversibly to the active site of the enzyme causing its inactivation, an effect also known as "suicide inhibition."

Exemestane significantly lowers circulating estrogen concentrations in postmenopausal women, but has no detectable effect on adrenal biosynthesis of corticosteroids or aldosterone.

Exemestane has no effect on other enzymes involved in the steroidogenic pathway up to a concentration at least 600 times higher than that inhibiting the aromatase enzyme.

Important Safety Information

AROMASIN should not be used in women who are premenopausal, are nursing or pregnant, have a known hypersensitivity to the drug, or are taking estrogen-containing agents.

Dose modification is recommended for patients who are receiving certain medications, including strong CYP 3A4 inducers such as rifampicin and phenytoin.

.

Reductions in bone mineral density over time are seen with use of AROMASIN.

In IES, incidence of adverse events (AEs; %) occurring in = 10% of patients in any treatment group (AROMASIN vs tamoxifen) were hot flashes (21.2 vs 19.9), fatigue (16.1 vs 14.7), arthralgia = joint pain (14.6 vs 8.6), headache (13.1 vs 10.8), insomnia (12.4 vs 8.9), and increased sweating (11.8 vs 10.4). Discontinuation rates due to AEs were similar between AROMASIN and tamoxifen (6.3% vs 5.1%).

[Sistersteel]

it isn't recommended for women who haven't undergone menopause.



They say that about all AIs ;)

[Tatyana]

They say that about all AIs ;)

I think they give tamoxifan to younger women with breast cancer if it is oestrogen sensitive.

[Sistersteel]

I think they give tamoxifan to younger women with breast cancer if it is oestrogen sensitive.

Tamoxifen is an Anti E, not an AI tat. Its a selective estrogen receptor modulator (SERM) that I made mention of earlier in our discussion, and not an aromataze inhibitor (AI).

[Tatyana]

Tamoxifen is an Anti E, not an AI tat. Its a selective estrogen receptor modulator (SERM) that I made mention of earlier in our discussion, and not an aromataze inhibitor (AI).


That makes it much clearer. Either the drug is going to sit in the receptor blocking out oestrogen (tamoxifan), or it will just stop oestrogen from being formed as it kills the enzyme (aromasin).

[sassy69]

Most of the breast cancer documentation I found while looking for information about duration of use of nolva indicated that for premenopausal women, they will prescribe Nolvadex for 2 yrs, but the research indicates after 2 yrs, Arimidex produces better results so they recommend a switch over to that. They didn't state explicitly why, but I'd assume that after 2 yrs of continued nolvadex use, early menopause has been induced, and adrenal androgen aromotization because the primary source of estrogen production .. thus use of Arimidex becomes useful while nolvadex acting on ovarian estrogen is no longer a contributor.

[tammyp]

so basically it brings on menopause? this could also hold true with using reg gear. since it lowers estrogen , correct? i never get a period anymore.

[sassy69]

so basically it brings on menopause? this could also hold true with using reg gear. since it lowers estrogen , correct? i never get a period anymore.

I think that's different... another good question tho...

Nolva specifically acts to fake out the estrogen receptors to interrupt the estrogen process. In looking for an answer to the question "how long can you stay on nolvadex before inducing permanent menopause?" the only real documentation I've found is the breast cancer research that indicates after 2 yrs on the nolva protocol, they assume you're now in menopause and its time to consider the aromatized adrenal-drive estrogen to be your primary source, thus using the AIs instead of the SERMs.

But I've never found anything that indicates AAS specifically inhibits estrogen. Rather it seems to basically result in amenorrhea . But then that raises the question of what is the difference between amenorrhea & early menopause. I found one ref that called "early menoapuse" = ovarian failure.

I think what people find when they experience a loss of menstrual flow during a cycle, is that many of the other sides are still there (e.g. cramps, mood swings, etc), i.e. you're still ovulating but the flow stops. I don't know much about the mechanism, but the loss of the flow can come from a lot of different things. I personally recall pretty vividly, my first year away from home at college. No period for the first semester, went home for Xmas.. got it,,, then back for spring semester & disappeared again until summer break. I don't recall if I'd experienced the bloating and stuff, but I know I was moody - in fact I was a nervous wreck for most of that first year.

But continued state of no-period .. have you always had an irregular period or any pre-existing conditions?

[tammyp]

always ..unless i was on the pill. i didnt get it even when i was nattie. i had polyps on my overies years back, that is it.

[sassy69]

This also leaks over into the question of interaction of AAS w/ birth control. Again, I've never found anything that says one is a contraindication of the other. But generally speaking, the fundamental goals of each are at odds (i.e. promoting lean muscle mass vs promoting estrogen-oriented fat depositing) so its hard to get the full effects of one in the presence of the other. A simple example is use of birth control, even w/o AAS, while getting ready for a show. Does the BC make it harder to drop the estrogenic fat when tryign to cut your thighs down for the stage? So if you're running an AAS and keepign your BC, will you get the full 'lean muscle mass' promotion of the AAS or are you negating it. And equivalently, since you can expect your menstrual flow to stop due to the AAS, how does the BC, which is supposed to regulate your estrogen & keep a regular cycle going, respond? And where does your ability to reproduce fall with both of these opposing influences trying to work?

[tammyp]

when i got blood work done last year, it said estrogen was LOW. no #, just low. at 38, am i in menopause early?

[Tatyana]

so basically it brings on menopause? this could also hold true with using reg gear. since it lowers estrogen , correct? i never get a period anymore.

If my memory serves me correctly, they can.

These are cancer drugs, so when women are faced with the choice of possible death or menopause, menopause doesn't look that bad.

It is going to be dose and length of time, these women often have to remain on these drugs.

You keep your bodyfat quite low all season don't you. It is more likely to be related to that.

[Tatyana]

when i got blood work done last year, it said estrogen was LOW. no #, just low. at 38, am i in menopause early?

Your oestrogen is going to fluctuate hugely over the month, the reference range is 0-1000.

If you want to check for menopause, then have your LH/FSH, oestrogen and progesterone checked.

Jeebus, usually they measure it four days post on set of your period to check.

You are going to be a special case. I am going to talk to my consultant.

:)

[sassy69]

If my memory serves me correctly, they can.

These are cancer drugs, so when women are faced with the choice of possible death or menopause, menopause doesn't look that bad.

It is going to be dose and length of time, these women often have to remain on these drugs.

You keep your bodyfat quite low all season don't you. It is more likely to be related to that.

Are you talking about AAS or other drugs for cancer treatment? I came across this reference (http://www.annieappleseedproject.org/chemam.html) about chemo-induced amenorrhea:

http://us.st12.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/annieappleseedproject_2049_2435 (http://www.annieappleseedproject.org/index.html)

http://us.st12.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/annieappleseedproject_2050_23042290

Chemotherapy-Induced Amenorrhea and Fertility in Women Undergoing Adjuvant Treatment for Breast Cancer

Susan E. Minton, DO, Pamela N. Munster, MD

Abstract Background: The majority of women diagnosed with early-stage breast cancer have an excellent long-term prognosis, but many will undergo temporary or permanent chemotherapy-induced amenorrhea.

Methods: While breast cancer is more common in older women, about 1 in 200 women under the age of 40 is at risk to develop breast cancer. Many of these women benefit from chemotherapy but are afraid to risk the opportunity to bear children. The authors review the current studies on the impact of adjuvant chemotherapy on amenorrhea and fertility in women with breast cancer.

Results: The likelihood of amenorrhea is based on the specific adjuvant chemotherapy regimen administered and the age of the patient.

Future childbirth is a viable option for women treated for breast cancer at an early stage. While the use of tamoxifen as a hormonal therapy in premenopausal breast cancer is now the standard of care, no conclusive data confirm the benefit of GnRH agonists in adjuvant therapy after treatment with chemotherapy followed by tamoxifen.

Conclusions: As more women over the age of 35 consider pregnancy, fertility issues are becoming important areas of investigation for the adjuvant treatment of breast cancer. Whether chemotherapy-induced amenorrhea has a prognostic effect remains unclear, and further studies are warranted.

Introduction Approximately one third of new cases of invasive breast cancer predicted to occur in the United States in 2003 will occur in women under 50 years of age.[1] With improved education and increased screening, it is likely that more women will be diagnosed with early-stage breast cancer at younger ages than ever before.

Fortunately, most breast cancers are diagnosed at an early stage. Most national guidelines of early-stage invasive breast cancer recommend treatment with adjuvant cytotoxic chemotherapy and hormone therapy with estrogen receptor-positive (ER+) tumors. The exception to these guidelines refers to cases in which the tumors are small.

Thus, the majority of young women diagnosed with early-stage breast cancer will undergo adjuvant chemotherapy. Long-term survival is likely when breast cancer is diagnosed at an early stage, especially after adjuvant therapy.

Temporary or permanent menopause is a consequence that specifically affects young women diagnosed with breast cancer and treated with adjuvant chemotherapy. In addition, premature ovarian failure has been associated with increased morbidity and mortality.[2]

According to the US Census Bureau of Statistics, the average age of onset of menopause in American women is between 50 and 52 years. The median age of women who develop amenorrhea following adjuvant chemotherapy varies from 38 to 46 years.[3] The likelihood of permanent chemotherapy-induced menopause is directly related to age. Women older than age 40 have a higher incidence of amenorrhea than women younger than age 40.

The incidence rate of amenorrhea varies from 21% to 71% in younger women, whereas in women older than 40, the rate ranges from 49% to 100%.[3] Thus, as more women with breast cancer survive the disease, treatment-related morbidity and long-term sequelae related to chemotherapy-induced amenorrhea will assume greater importance.

Therefore, future trials will require more attention to reporting the incidence of chemotherapy-induced amenorrhea and will consider prevention and treatment strategies for the symptoms and long-term side affects of menopause.

Another important aspect of therapy decisions in the young premenopausal woman undergoing adjuvant chemotherapy is the preservation of fertility.

At present, there are no conclusive data suggesting that deleterious effects from subsequent pregnancy will occur in women with a prior history of breast cancer.[4] Therefore, in a population with a high likelihood of long-term survival, interventions to preserve fertility should be considered.

In addition, in the absence of clearly documented benefits of premature ovarian failure with regard to disease-free survival (DFS), the preservation of ovarian function may improve all-cause survival by decreasing the risks of heart disease and osteoporosis. Over the last 2 decades, the median age at first live birth has steadily increased.

The number of children born to women over 30 years of age has doubled and now comprises 30% of all live births. In 1999, in the United States alone, more than 500,000 babies were born to women over 35 years of age and many to women over age 40. According to the US Census Bureau, the birth rate in women over age 40 is projected to increase by 7% over the next 10 years.

The likelihood of successful conception decreases over age 34 in nulliparous women, and this may be due to selection bias rather than biologic reasons. The infertility rate of parous women remains at 5% or less up to the age of 44. These findings suggest that the preservation of fertility even in women over the age of 35 years is important.

Major strides have been made in reproductive medicine that allow many women to become pregnant even when subfertile or when fertility chances are waning due to older age. However, most reproductive interventions are either not possible or exceedingly difficult after menopause.

The rate of premature ovarian failure (ie, menopause under the age of 40) has been estimated at 1% and is often familial.[5] Early menopause (ie, menopause between 41-44 years) is estimated to occur in approximately 5% of women. While breast cancer is more common in older women, about 1 in 200 women under the age of 40 is at risk to develop breast cancer. Many of these women benefit from chemotherapy but are afraid to risk the opportunity to bear children.

Incidence of Chemotherapy-Induced Amenorrhea

The cytotoxic agent that has been most intensely studied and known to induce amenorrhea is cyclophosphamide.[6-9] Cyclophosphamide is an integral part of most of the commonly used regimens for the adjuvant treatment of breast cancer.

Two thirds of premenopausal women experience amenorrhea with the adjuvant regimen of cyclophosphamide, methotrexate, and 5-fluorouracil (5FU) (CMF).[3]

The antimetabolites methotrexate and 5FU in the CMF regimen have not been not associated with an increased rate of amenorrhea. Bines et al[3] investigated methotrexate and 5FU in the adjuvant setting and reported an amenorrhea rate of 9%, whereas standard CMF regimens utilizing oral cyclophosphamide are associated with a 69% amenorrhea rate in an agematched population.

Furthermore, the higher the cumulative dose of cyclophosphamide, the higher the observed incidence of menopause. Goldhirsch et al[10] published rates of menopause based on cumulative doses of cyclophosphamide. One perioperative dose of CMF was associated with a 10% incidence of amenor-rhea; rates increased to 33% and 61% in a younger population of women treated with 6 and 12 months of CMF, respectively.

Amenorrhea associated with anthracycline therapy is less well understood and shows significant variations among studies. The most recent meta-analysis has shown that regimens containing prolonged oral use of cyclophosphamide, such as cyclophosphamide, doxorubicin, and 5FU (CAF) and cyclophosphamide, epirubicin, and 5FU (CEF), are superior to CMF in terms of DFS and overall survival (OS),[11] but data on the incidence of amenorrhea associated with these regimens is limited.

However, the Canadian NCIC adjuvant trial comparing CMF with CEF indicated that the incidence of amenorrhea was slightly higher in the CEF arm (51%) vs the CMF arm (42.6%).[12] Most anthracyclinebased regimens have a lower incidence of amenor-rhea, most likely due to the lower cumulative cyclophosphamide doses used in comparison to the classic CMF regimen. The doxorubicin and cyclophosphamide (AC) regimen has been reported by Bines et al[3] to result in amenorrhea at a rate of 34%.

The incidence of amenorrhea after adjuvant taxanes is not yet clearly established. The incidence of amenorrhea reported from the recently presented BCIRG 01 trial comparing TAC and FAC in early-stage breast cancer was 51.4% and 32.8%, respectively.

However, this trial was presented at an early stage of follow-up, and the method of assessment was not reported[13] (Table 3). A small retrospective trial evaluated the addition of paclitaxel after AC and did not find a significant increase in amenorrhea.[14]

Larger prospective studies are needed to confirm these data. Further data will be derived from the larger trials such as CALGB 9344 and NSABP B27 and B28 that are evaluating paclitaxel and docetaxel in the adjuvant and neoadjuvant setting. These studies have completed case accrual and are currently awaiting maturity.

Variation in Reporting Time Points of Amenorrhea

Inconsistencies exist in the manner of reporting the incidence of amenorrhea with various adjuvant chemotherapy regimens. Some report the incidence of amenorrhea upon completion of chemotherapy, while others report continued amenorrhea at various time points after the start of chemotherapy.

The time to development of amenorrhea in women under the age of 40 undergoing adjuvant chemotherapy ranges from 6 to 16 months.[3] The time point most common-ly used for the reporting of amenorrhea related to adjuvant chemotherapy is after 12 months. Padmanabhan et al[15] reported the incidence of amenorrhea from the beginning of treatment with CMF chemotherapy at 3, 6, and 12 months later as 50%, 70%, and 80%, respectively.

Twelve months follow-up may be a reasonable time point to report the incidence of amenorrhea. However, other reports[16] indicate a chemotherapy-induced amenorrhea rate of 66% within 18 months of surgery that increases to 76% after a median follow-up of 36 months.

The Effect of Age on Chemotherapy-Induced Amenorrhea

The rate of chemotherapy-induced amenorrhea varies according to patient age. The Milan regimen consisting of CMF with and without doxorubicin reported an amenorrhea rate of 4% for women under 30 years of age, 50% in women 36 to 40 years of age, 86% in women aged 41 to 45 years, and 100% in women over the age of 45.[16]

Women older than age 40 have a much higher risk of developing amenorrhea compared with those 40 years of age and younger.[3] The rates of chemotherapy-induced amenorrhea vary from 21% to 71% in women under age 40 compared to 49% to 100% in those at least age 40 or older.

Amenorrhea occurred for at least 3 months in approximately 40% of young women and in 76% of older women after a CMF-based chemotherapy regimen.[3] In women between 40 and 49 years of age, doxorubicin-containing regimens were associated with a chemotherapy-induced amenorrhea rate of 96%.[17] Similar results were seen with epirubicin.[18]

The exact mechanism of chemotherapy-induced amenorrhea is poorly understood. Preclinical studies have suggested that chemotherapy induces apoptotic changes in pregranulosa cells that subsequently lead to follicle loss.

However, these findings have not been confirmed in human studies.[19] The significant increase in amenorrhea seen in older women treated with chemotherapy may be due to the relatively lower number of existing oocytes. Approximately 2 million oocytes are present at birth; they have decreased to 200,000 by puberty and to 400 at menopause.[20] Following treatment with chemotherapy, the ovaries have a decreased number of oocytes available for follicular recruitment, along with evidence of fibrosis.[6-9,21]

These changes are similar to those observed in natural post-menopausal ovaries. However, the chemotherapy induces further reduction and insult to a diminished population of oocytes, which may manifest in overt ovarian failure. The cytotoxic damage appears to be progressive and irreversible in the ovary, as germ cells are limited in number and cannot be regenerated.[22,23]

Survival and Chemotherapy-Induced Amenorrhea

Is short-term or permanent menopause important to breast cancer survival in premenopausal women? Several reported trials suggest that women under the age of 35 have a poorer prognosis and that age appears to be an independent risk factor. Poikonen et al[24] reported on the prognostic effect of amenorrhea and elevated gonadotropin levels induced by the adjuvant chemotherapy regimen of six courses of CMF every 3 weeks.

In multivariate analysis, amenorrhea after chemotherapy was associated with improved DFS. In univariate analysis, improved OS was associated with chemotherapy-induced menopause. However, in multi-variate analysis, statistical significance was not observed for this observation. Chemotherapy-induced amenor-rhea was associated with improved DFS in women with estrogen receptor-positive (ER+) breast cancers, and no association was observed in those with ER- tumors.

However, these data are based on a small number of young women (n = 126). In this trial, tamoxifen was not given as an adjuvant treatment for ER+ tumors. Also, the serum FSH level did not correlate with prognosis and was not a reliable indicator of amenorrhea.

The International Breast Cancer Research Study Group (IBCSG) has reported on its prognostic findings in 3,000 premenopausal and perimenopausal women who participated in trials I, II,V, and VI.[25- 30] These trials were CMF-based adjuvant treatment studies conducted by the IBCSG from 1978 to 1993.

The major findings were that women under the age of 35 had a significantly higher risk of relapse and death than older women. The actuarial 10-year DFS for the younger and older women was 35% and 47%, respectively (P<.001). OS was 49% and 62%, respectively (P<.001).

Furthermore, the younger women with ER+ tumors had a significantly worse prognosis than the younger women with ER- tumors. The 10-year DFS was 25% for the ER-premature ovarian failure positive group vs 47% for the ER- group (P=.002). However, none of these trials had incorporated adjuvant tamoxifen.

To further explore the interaction between age and ER status, the US Cooperative Groups including the National Surgical Adjuvant Breast and Bowel Project (NSABP), the Eastern Cooperative Oncology Group (ECOG), and the Southwest Oncology Group (SWOG) analyzed outcomes in premenopausal women who had participated in adjuvant chemotherapy-alone trials.

The groups also added the IBCSG results of premenopausal women from the above-mentioned trials, including only the subset with known ER status.[14] Cohorts in the IBCSG, NSABP, and SWOG trials revealed a statistically significant poorer outcome for younger patients (age <35) with ER+ tumors compared to their older counterparts. In contrast, among patients with ER- tumors, no substantial differences in survival were observed in the younger vs older population. Tamoxifen as an adjuvant therapy was not used in these trials.

US Cooperative Groups have subsequently analyzed trials investigating the combination of chemotherapy and tamoxifen in the adjuvant setting. Interestingly, they have observed no differences in DFS in the older vs younger populations. Furthermore, there is no interaction observed between age and ER status.[14] The effectiveness of adjuvant ovarian suppression in addition to chemotherapy and tamoxifen in premenopausal women remains unclear.

Data are limited regarding the combination of tamoxifen and an ovarian ablative therapy after adjuvant chemotherapy in a young population of patients with ER+ tumors. In the metastatic setting, one trial demonstrated a 1-year survival benefit from buserelin, the gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) agonist, combined with tamoxifen compared to either treatment alone in premenopausal women with ER+ breast cancers.[31] Houghton et al[32] presented their findings from the "Zoladex in Premenopausal Patients" (ZIPP) trial in 2000.

Women with early-stage breast cancer (n = 2,631) were randomized to receive either tamoxifen for 2 years, goserelin for 26 months, tamoxifen plus goserelin, or no adjuvant treatment. Some of the women received adjuvant chemotherapy in addition to the hormonal treatments. While this trial has not reached maturity, early analysis suggested that at a median follow-up of 4.3 years, event-free survival was significantly better in the groups who received goserelin compared to those who did not (261 vs 330 events, P=.001).

However, confounding factors such as the additional benefits of chemotherapy or tamoxifen alone have not yet been determined. The OS appeared to be similar in both groups. In 1999, Davidson et al[33] reported that 5-year DFS and OS were similar in premenopausal women who had received CAF alone vs CAF plus goserelin (Zoladex) (CAFZ) vs CAF plus goserelin (Zoladex) plus tamoxifen (CAFZT).

The CAFZT group had a better relapse-free survival compared to the CAF group or the CAFZ group, and the CAF vs CAFZ group had a similar relapse-free survival. The OS at 5 years was similar in all three groups. However, there was no arm consisting of CAF plus tamoxifen to determine the potential benefits of goserelin either compared with or in addition to tamoxifen. Estradiol levels were measured, and the benefit of the addition of goserelin and tamoxifen was more evident in the premenopausal women less than 40 years of age who had elevated serum estradiol levels.

It is noteworthy that serum estradiol levels vary among women who develop chemotherapy-induced menopause.[34] Serum estradiol levels may remain elevated for several months to years after the onset of amenorrhea.

These data further complicate the issue of what serologic marker or endpoint to evaluate in future studies investigating the effects of goserelin in premenopausal women on adjuvant chemotherapy for breast cancer.

Overall, is it more important to measure the incidence of amenorrhea or to measure serum estradiol levels, or should both parameters be used? All trials to date have included only a small proportion of premenopausal patients significantly younger than age 40 who remain premenopausal after adjuvant chemotherapy.

The majority of the patients in many of these trials are over age 40; in the 5th decade, the incidence of naturally occurring menopause will also increase from 5% to close to 100%. International trials are being developed to address this issue.

To date, there is no clear evidence that chemotherapy-induced amenorrhea provides significant additional benefits for young women beyond standard adjuvant treatment with combination chemotherapy and tamoxifen.

Further studies are needed to investigate optimal adjuvant hormonal interventions in the premenopausal population.

Preservation of Chemotherapy-Related Amenorrhea and Fertility

In addition to the adjuvant use of GnRH agonists as a primary treatment, these agents have also been investigated as a supportive treatment to preserve fertility while undergoing chemotherapy.

Preservation of ovarian function has been evaluated in a limited number studies with few patients. Although the data are encouraging, this approach may need to be evaluated with regard to disease and specific therapy. A study of buserelin given to 8 women treated for advanced Hodgkin's dis-ease reported that at 3 years of follow-up, 50% of the women were amenorrheic vs 75% in the control group.[35] A prospective study[20] evaluated the use of GnRH agonist in 44 women who were 15 to 40 years of age with various malignancies treated with chemotherapy. All but 1 of the patients in the GnRH-agonist group resumed spontaneous ovulation as evidenced by menses within 6 months, while less than half of the patients in the control arm resumed ovarian function and regular cyclic activity.

Another trial evaluating chemotherapy-induced amenorrhea in patients with lymphomas showed a protective effect of co-treatment with a GnRH agonist. (23]

In a recently reported trial investigating the protective effects of goserelin on ovarian function,[36] premenopausal women received goserelin combined with various adjuvant chemotherapy regimens including CMF, CEF, and high-dose chemotherapy followed by bone marrow transplant as adjuvant treatment of breast cancer. The median age of the 64 women accrued to the trial was 42. They were given 3.6 mg of goserelin every 28 days for 1 year.

After a median follow-up of 54 months, 86% had resumed regular menses within 12 months of completing the adjuvant chemotherapy. The DFS was 84% and the OS was 94%. Given the median age of 42 and the previous data on permanent amen-orrhea rates associated with the above-mentioned adjuvant chemotherapies, it was assumed that the majority of women would remain in menopause long-term.

Therefore, it was surprising and encouraging to observe an 86% ovarian preservation rate after the use of goserelin. Further investigation of GnRH analogues for this indication is warranted.[36]

While a potential benefit has been suggested by these findings, benefit has not been confirmed in a larger trial with stratification for disease, age and type of therapy. In addition, the risk of chemotherapy-induced amenorrhea has not been clearly defined.

Although GnRH analog treatment parallel with chemotherapy may be advantageous during adjuvant therapy for young women, it is not the only option for fertility preservation. Several studies report on cryopreservation of mature metaphase II oocytes after hMG/hCG ovarian stimulation. To date, this approach has been successful only in rodents.[37,38]

A future possible alternative may be the retrieval of human immature oocytes for cryopreservation and in vitro maturation after thawing. Cryopreservation of fertilized ova, after IVF before chemotherapy, is clinically available but rarely is feasible in single young women.

Moreover, the ovarian stimulation with hMG/hCG before in vitro fertilization egg retrieval would postpone the initiation of chemotherapy. Most oncologists would hesitate to recommend hMG/hCG ovarian stimulation with an increase in estradiol in a patient diagnosed with breast cancer. A further possibility, which has recently been the focus of intense investigations, is the transplantation of ovarian tissue.[39,40] However, despite promising preclinical results in ovarian cortex transplantation, these techniques have not been optimized.

The success of these procedures will depend on several factors such as the number of follicles that survive the transplant and the ability of these follicles to develop and ovulate.[41]

Conclusions

Studies to date have not used uniform definitions of menopause and have not required clarification between temporary and permanent menopause. Most studies report outcomes related to induction of chemotherapy-induced amenorrhea in a premenopausal population using nonhormonal adjuvant trials.

While the use of tamoxifen as a hormonal therapy in premenopausal breast cancer has now become the standard of care, there are no conclusive data to confirm the benefit of GnRH agonists in adjuvant therapy after treatment with chemotherapy and then tamoxifen; however, trials are in development.

At present, no sufficient persuasive data are available on DFS or OS to warrant prescription of GnRH agonists as standard therapy in the adjuvant setting for women who do not develop permanent amenorrhea. Ironically, the investigation of treatment with GnRH agonists during adjuvant chemotherapy for the purpose of preserving fertility may find additional outcome benefits through the induction of temporary amenorrhea.

Such trials addressing the impact of amenorrhea on survival are vital to further elucidate the role of preservation of fertility in young women undergoing adjuvant treatment for breast cancer.

Cancer Control 9(6):466-472, 2002

[Tatyana]

I was referring just to the anti-oestrogen drugs.

Great paper.

The drug/prescription thing is quite different in the UK. There are only certain drugs that can be prescribed and they are all listed in a book called the British National Formulary.

They have these great little write-ups, why they are used, sometimes how they work, contra-indications, side effects and one of the most interesting things, how much they cost.

Anyone can buy a copy of this book and I think anyone can register for their website.

It might be a good idea to use/post this information, I find it quite useful.

The other good thing about this book is that it separates the marketing of the pharmaceutical companies with the clinical use and effectiveness.

[NubianBeauty]

sass the major reasons for switching from Tamoxifen to Anastrozole is to prevent uterine abnormalities since Tamox causes the endometrium to thicken (endometriosis) even in women w/o ovaries and/or who are post menopausal. The recommended usage length for Tamox in pre-meno women is 5 years but they may have to go thru D&Cs every 6 months and can't remember the other procedure right now?

Of course you know that conclusion is basically oudated now due to the results from 2 studies in particular... I know one is ATAC and can't remember the other one now... I have more info... but I have to go so will post it later.

[sassy69]

sass the major reasons for switching from Tamoxifen to Anastrozole is to prevent uterine abnormalities since Tamox causes the endometrium to thicken (endometriosis) even in women w/o ovaries and/or who are post menopausal. The recommended usage length for Tamox in pre-meno women is 5 years but they may have to go thru D&Cs every 6 months and can't remember the other procedure right now?

Of course you know that conclusion is basically oudated now due to the results from 2 studies in particular... I know one is ATAC and can't remember the other one now... I have more info... but I have to go so will post it later.


OK kewl.. real info! I couldn't find anything that went into the reason to switch after 2 yrs on Nolva within the breast cancer documentation so I made that leap.

[Por2gue]

Tatyana, sweetie, I know you think you just answered my question but I have no clue what you just said. Can you simplify more?

Are all aas some form of testosterone? And if so what makes the ones not labeled test different from the ones that are test?
LOL, you were so nice with this response it's funny. Tat is a smarty pants, I dig that.

[GirlyMuscle]

LOL, you were so nice with this response it's funny. Tat is a smarty pants, I dig that.I love Tats. She's is smrt. (I purposely forgot the A) A Geeeenius. Alas, I am only normal smart and I can't follow scientist smart all the times.

[Big Sky Guy]

Honestly, I think test with an SERM coupled with another anabolic compound you are comfortable with, is great for added strength and size in the offseason. Test and EQ, or Test and Primo, Test and NPP, NPP and EQ, even test, EQ and NPP for the more daring among us..all are very decent combinations. The gains you make on EQ, though small over extended periods of time, are easy to keep post cycle. That, in addition to the increase in red blood cell count, makes Test/EQ combo my first choice.

I would advise to run a maintenance phase after a bulker and design the diet to sustain the additional mass for a period no less than 6 months. That is how you reset your natural set point and get your body accustomed to carrying the added mass without any chemical aid in the long run. I am very big on long term results. I think transitioning from a bulker straight into a cutter is a complete waste. That is where women fall into the trap of using more in order to maintain new gains while dieting down. That can be avoided with a little patience and time. But unfortunately, many competitors compete every year, sometimes multiples shows a year, and now with the recent changes in National qualification, FBBs do not have the luxury of waiting 2 years to make their national debut anymore. That is actually hurting female bodybuilding in the long run, unfortunately. That is just my opinion. FBBs cannot take the time off they need to add quality mass without having to go overboard with chemical enhancement. More frequent competition, means more frequent dieting, which will inevitably lead to heavier drug use.

In terms of cutters, I would recommend a progesterone based androgen that does not convert along with an anti prolactin, an AI, your thyroids and GH. You can add proviron for an oral which will work synergystically with your SERM as per our discussion earlier.

Again, smart stacking is about running things that actually compliment each other rather than do the same thing.

That is my opinion.

SS

Just highlighting what I believe is an extremely important point for women and men. Low and Slow- low dose over a longer cycle with a maintenance mindset at the end. The gains may stop at 8-12 weeks, but our body is not prepared to hold that new muscle if we immediately decrease calories to drop some of the BF% we have gained in the previous weeks. Stick with that maintenance phase and give your body a fighting chance to hold that muscle....particularly when you are beyond your genetic limits.

I am certain it is significantly more difficult for women to fit the maintenance phase in as there are so many events demanding you stay in shape...sponsorship events, photo shoots for this and that...where is the time to gain and maintain if you compete twice per year???

[SallyAnne]

I've found in my personal experience, I don't have to drop any calories to lose fat - I just need to switch up my macros.

[Suzanne]

when i got blood work done last year, it said estrogen was LOW. no #, just low. at 38, am i in menopause early?

when i was reading about menopause it said you are in menopause if you haven't had a period in a year course i am sure there are unusal circumstances

[GirlyMuscle]

when i was reading about menopause it said you are in menopause if you haven't had a period in a year course i am sure there are unusal circumstancesYou're speaking naturally not having your period for a year...not because of aas, right?

[Suzanne]

You're speaking naturally not having your period for a year...not because of aas, right?

yes

[Tatyana]

when i got blood work done last year, it said estrogen was LOW. no #, just low. at 38, am i in menopause early?




It would be a challenge to determine it biochemically as the LH/FSH and oestradiol will be low due to low body fat and pharmaceuticals.

Effectively, you are in exercise induced menopause as you have stopped your body from ovulating and producing oestrogen.

It is often reversible when you put bodyfat back on. There are a few studies on female athletes, more often they are marathon runners, and this is also using some of the studies done in women with anorexia.

That is really all that can be used. Obviously, it may be slightly different for slightly older women with a different method of training.

[Built]

It would be fascinating to see some blood work of a woman while on some form of steroids, it must be out there as they have used them medically.
I have been on so-called "bioidentical" HRT - oral DHEA (20mg per day) and transdermal testosterone (1-2 g daily of 1% testosterone in dermabase cream, of which androgel literature suggests 10% of the tests makes its way through to my blood stream - 1-2mg per day) and transdermal progesterone (1g daily of 5% transdermal cream) for a year and a half. I still get occasional spotting, but as I do not cycle my progesterone, this is sporadic.

I am almost forty six and perimenopausal. My hot flashes STOPPED when I went on the progesterone. My small understanding of progesterone is that it acts to "balance" estrogen, which is interesting to me. Further digging suggests it acts in some ways as an aromatase inhibitor, but I'm all ears to anything you folks may have on this.

What bloodwork would you like to see?

Since starting, my estrogen has dropped to normal levels. It had been through-the-roof high before I started on HRT.

I aromatized a great deal of the test initially - I know this from the sides I got, bloated like crazy. That settled down with the progesterone.

I have grown a little bit of chin and body hair since I started - but I've backed the dose down since figuring out how to accurately dose it (little jars of cream the doctor origially prescribed SUCK for accurate dosing - I now get the cream loaded into 30 ml syringes and load a 2ml slin syringe with my dose. MUCH EASIER).

The doctors here in Canada are prescribing this therapy, but quite honestly know little to nothing about their effective application. For example, I was instructed to apply it to thin skin and to rotate the sites, and to apply the test all at once in the AM. My doctor did not know I would aromatize any of the test - she said that didn't usually happen in women. :rolleyes:

I apply a little in the AM to my delts, and the rest pre and then post workout to my delts and chest and throat so it is available near my training window - published androgel data suggest test peaks about two hours after application. I apply a little to the vulva as well as permeation is higher there, although I know this encourages DHT production due to the higher concentration of 5-alpha reductatase in this tissue so I keep this amount very small.

The progesterone I apply at night since it is calming and good for sleep. DHEA I take 10mg in the AM, 10mg at bedtime. No particular reason other than I like to spread things out as much as possible to avoid peaks and valleys.

I'll ask the question in here since Sassy suggested it in the HRT thread I posted in a few days ago - would I have fewer sides if I switched to injections of say susp or prop instead of the cream? If prop, where I would dose EOD, I am thinking something like 2mg EOD to start, test blood levels and titrate, but I'm somewhat in the dark here.

I'll look forward to your replies.

[Built]

Anyone?

Bueller?

[Tatyana]

The progesterone is necessary to help to prevent the potential risk of breast and endometrial cancer due to higher oestrogen.

As for the difference with the testosterone, I can't help you with that.

[Built]

Thanks for the post, Tatyana. I am aware of the anti-cancer properties of progesterone. Additionally, there is evidence in the literature that progesterone reduces cortisol-induced aromatization of test to estrogen, which I imagine can only be helpful while cutting. :)

I'm still stocked right up on the test, but I'm going to switch to propionate for the next batch of transdermal so it won't act on the 5-alpha reductase in the skin. I think the levels will be more stable then. I had my compounding pharmacy source it, and I'll get the scrip from my doc next time I see him.

I may hang onto some of the non-esterified stuff for a pre/post workout boost, however. Or for that "other" kind of boost. ;)

[jdgbiz]

Hi All, I'm a figure competitor looking to put on some size. I've been using Anavar for about a month now (3 morning and 3 night). I have two questions: 1) how long should I cycle, and 2) what's good to stack with Anavar? ;)

[sassy69]

What does it mean "3 monrnng and 3 night". What is your total daily dose? Also what is your diet? Is it designed to build muscle? IMO you don't need to be stacking anything w/ anavar right now. You just need to eat for your goal and don't expect overnight gain of 20 lb of lean muscle mass. Mass building is about building the mass and then giving your body time to adapt to it so it can become "your own". Just juicing to get mass and then cutting for your next show will probably leave you w/ a sum total of maybe a couple lb lean muscle gain.

At low doses women can run var easily at 10-14 weeks.

[jdgbiz]

What does it mean "3 monrnng and 3 night". What is your total daily dose? Also what is your diet? Is it designed to build muscle? IMO you don't need to be stacking anything w/ anavar right now. You just need to eat for your goal and don't expect overnight gain of 20 lb of lean muscle mass. Mass building is about building the mass and then giving your body time to adapt to it so it can become "your own". Just juicing to get mass and then cutting for your next show will probably leave you w/ a sum total of maybe a couple lb lean muscle gain.

At low doses women can run var easily at 10-14 weeks.

I'm taking 6 total a day (as recommended on the bottle). My diet is good. It's off-season for me. I weigh around 125 right now, and my protein is mostly lean meats, eggs, and whey. I try to squeeze in 180-200 grams a day. My last show was April '09, and I'm not competing again until March '10 which is why I want to use this time wisely to train and supplement where it makes the best sense.

So if I understand you right, I should cycle 10-14 weeks on and then take off how much time before adding it back in?

[sassy69]

I'm taking 6 total a day (as recommended on the bottle). My diet is good. It's off-season for me. I weigh around 125 right now, and my protein is mostly lean meats, eggs, and whey. I try to squeeze in 180-200 grams a day. My last show was April '09, and I'm not competing again until March '10 which is why I want to use this time wisely to train and supplement where it makes the best sense.

So if I understand you right, I should cycle 10-14 weeks on and then take off how much time before adding it back in?

I don't mean to beat this into the ground, but what does "6" mean. I.e. what brand & what dose are you using? I don't recall a bottle of Anavar giving recommended doses, particularly if it isn't specifying male or female.... Is this real anavar or some prohormone or something?

[Klaus Urine]

I've found in my personal experience, I don't have to drop any calories to lose fat - I just need to switch up my macros.Seriously? You don't ever drop calories on a contest diet?

[Lee Penman]

I've found in my personal experience, I don't have to drop any calories to lose fat - I just need to switch up my macros.
I think enquiring minds want to know how you 'switch up your macros'.....

[SallyAnne]

Seriously? You don't ever drop calories on a contest diet?

Yes, I do. lol You have to. This year I'm prepping with Dave and have dropped calories right away.

What I mean is that I went from from eating whatever to eating a 40/30/30 and dropped the weight off initially, without dropping calories. (2007 beginning of prep) I just looked back through my prep logs and was eating 2800 calories a day at the beginning of prep and was dropping a couple of pounds a week. A few weeks in my trainer cut my calories by 10% each week - but the weight came off initially just by changing what I ate.

[Tauren777]

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know how much test top IFBB BODYBUILDERS use?

[Tauren777]

One thing i am uncertain of that was posted here was that transgender therapy changes your genes, i do not think this is so, if it is i'd like to see a source. In my opinion trans gender therapy is a glorified cosmetic procedure. I also find it a bit insulting to many FBB's and female user's of AAS; many of them take far more test than a FTM does, so does that make those FBB's men?? NO. sorry, not trying to change the subject (not like anyone would take this post seriously) but just stating an opinion.

[Tatyana]

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know how much test top IFBB BODYBUILDERS use?


You mean the female BBers?

I am of the opinion that most of the top pros have amazing genetics and don't really need to take shed loads of steroids.

Those that have difficulties in putting on muscle and a poor response to AAS (as it has been demonstrated that there is a four-fold response), think that huge quantities of drugs are required.

There is some truth to the environment altering the expression of genes, it would be more along the lines of things like phosphorylations.

There can be slight alterations to the genetic code, drift and base pair changes, sometimes it is not going to affect the protien product.

[Tauren777]

[quote=Tatyana;426597]You mean the female BBers?

I am of the opinion that most of the top pros have amazing genetics and don't really need to take shed loads of steroids.

Those that have difficulties in putting on muscle and a poor response to AAS (as it has been demonstrated that there is a four-fold response), think that huge quantities of drugs are required.

I didn't know that. The reason why i thought they would take pretty high amounts is because i thought male pro's take insane amounts (no off to them), so i thought why not the women too (to a lesser extent of course).

I guess i'll never know unless i really ask one haha, but i don't see dat happenin anytime soon.

[Tatyana]

[quote=Tatyana;426597]You mean the female BBers?

I am of the opinion that most of the top pros have amazing genetics and don't really need to take shed loads of steroids.

Those that have difficulties in putting on muscle and a poor response to AAS (as it has been demonstrated that there is a four-fold response), think that huge quantities of drugs are required.

I didn't know that. The reason why i thought they would take pretty high amounts is because i thought male pro's take insane amounts (no off to them), so i thought why not the women too (to a lesser extent of course).

I guess i'll never know unless i really ask one haha, but i don't see dat happenin anytime soon.


I think the same applies to the top pro males.

I am sure some take a lot of drugs, but not all of them.

[Klaus Urine]

I think the same applies to the top pro males.

I am sure some take a lot of drugs, but not all of them.You really think that in this day and age some pros don't take prodigious quantities of drugs?

[fitbody]

I agree with this. ...and by a little, I mean a very little - but again, effects of sides and gains are so dependent on the woman taking the compound.


the side effects & gains will vary from woman to woman
EVEN ON THE SAME DRUGS & SAME DOSAGES
you won't know until you take it
then they come on subtley
little more and more over time...

[fitbody]

You really think that in this day and age some pros don't take prodigious quantities of drugs?

wow I actually agree with you on something

[fitbody]

It all comes down to anabolic to androgenic ratios. Some steroids are higher on the anabolic side with less androgenic effects - thus considered more suitable for women. Testosterone compounds are 100% androgenic.
Now do any of you want to share your experiences with test use (e.g Prop, Cyp, Enth, Sust). I am currently putting a two part article together on the subject if you wonder why I am being so nosey(lol!)

i will but no time to do it tonight
have used cyp & sust
if you wanna slog thru it the thread in Muscle Central titled "Ms.Olympia as I see it i went into brutal detail of what i have suffered and what i have done to try to counteract the damage

you can also email me anytime: [email protected]
Dawn Alison aka Fit Body

[whatdayaknow]

Hello,
I am new to this forum and enjoy what I see thus far. I know this is an older thread but I have recently and am still on a cycle of sustanon 250 and dbol. I am a 39 year old woman. I took dbol at 10mg ed for 4 weeks and have been taking sustanon 250mg twice per week. Side effects are mild facial acne, swollen clitoris, and increased sex drive. I am having some nice strength gains. I have only participated in a testosterone cycle once before with testoviron with the same results. I did have light facial hair on that cycle. I have not had the excess hair issue on test but I do not have a lot of body hair to begin iwth. I am lucky enough I do not need to shave my legs. I am going to be on this cycle for 6 weeks. I am on warafin and did have to adjust the warafin. I will say though that I did experience female ejaculation on this cycle. I did experience once before but very mildly. Since being on this cycle I have five cases with female ejaculation (three were in one session). First time I was so embarrassed. I wasn't sure what the hell happened. I am very happy with the results thus far and have only one week left. Anyone is welcome to ask me any questions providing they are not a question from a smart ass.

[GirlyMuscle]

Thanks for sharing whatdayaknow. Welcome to RX! Any smart ass response will be deleted. We don't put up with that in the women's forums.

[sassy69]

Welcome wdyk! Thx for sharing your experience. I'm curious how you chose that particular stack?

And yes, zero tolerance for BS here.

[whatdayaknow]

Thank you very much for the welcoming! I spoke to another woman from a different forum who used a similiar stack. She however was 30mg of dbol per day 500mg of sust every 10 days. I do enjoy being on test. I like the way it makes me feel.

[s2h]

TAT,stop taking exerts from books and acting like you know so much.you gonna tell me you just knew that off the top off your head in a few secs to answer a basic question haha!!Gimmie a break stop stealing BILL LLeywellns info and acting like its yours.OH and ban me if you like moderator,you should be banned for stealing other peoples knowledge and acting like its yours.Too answer the simple question (because my wife is a female BB and i ve done her supps for 10 years)if you take test(prop,cyp,enat,450,whatever) for more than 6-8 weeks your gonna start to look like a guy it doesnt take some stolen glorified chart stolen from somebodys book to give you that bit of knowledge. When using you should stick to no more than 50 mgs a week of test along w/ 100 mgs of EQ or primo a week(for mx cycles of 6-8 weeks).Use 1-2 ius of hgh m-f along w/ this.if you start to get some male sides that your not comfortable w/ cut back or discontinue use.Women dont have balls to worry about.VAR 10mg a day is another sub you can go w/ instead of the eq/primo but your gonna get much better muscle w/ the 1st cycle.I think you gals out her should stop takn advice from somebody who looks like a 3rd call out bikini girl.I dont really care who i pissed off im giving you the real deal not some made up BS!!!!

[s2h]

another great misfact ALL steriods aromitise,just some in much greater strenghts than others so var all the way to 450 test it's just a matter of how much,so all women are going to react much more different than males because its not natural to the female body.IT kinda like givn a guy a bunch of estrogen all kinds stuff can happen just depending on were there levels are at!

[s2h]

I'mm done ranting!!!

[fitbody]

.Too answer the simple question (because my wife is a female BB and i ve done her supps for 10 years)if you take test(prop,cyp,enat,450,whatever) for more than 6-8 weeks your gonna start to look like a guy it doesnt take some stolen glorified chart stolen from somebodys book to give you that bit of knowledge. When using you should stick to no more than 50 mgs a week of test along w/ 100 mgs of EQ or primo a week(for mx cycles of 6-8 weeks).Use 1-2 ius of hgh m-f along w/ this.if you start to get some male sides that your not comfortable w/ cut back or discontinue use.Women dont have balls to worry about.VAR 10mg a day is another sub you can go w/ instead of the eq/primo but your gonna get much better muscle w/ the 1st cycle.I think you gals out her should stop takn advice from somebody who looks like a 3rd call out bikini girl.I dont really care who i pissed off im giving you the real deal not some made up BS!!!!

you know i was reading those posts and thinkin to myself
i wanna post something but alot aren't gonna like it
i wasn't in the mood to do it i guess
after reading your post i just haveta agree
she may not have much hair now but she will soon enough

and me, i piss off so many people all the time, stand in line & take a number ;)

[sassy69]

I'mm done ranting!!!


I wish you would've quoted the post(s) you are responding to -- I'm a bit lost and I like continuity & context in these posts because you make good points.

[s2h]

Really Sassy all her qoutes make sense if there highjacked from LLwwellyns book,it's just the point of why act like you have this great knowledge when your stealn somebody elses info.AAS use in women is a VERY serious subject and not something to be "guessed" or just blurted out w/out real 1st hand experience.She's giving(TAT) scientific charts on the chains of AAS and then giving crappy answers to basic q's like"i think most top pros take steriods,but not all of them,most have great genetics"What a stupid statement!!!Iris K MS.Olympia one of the nicest people i've ever met has great genetics but is on so much gear(test)she looks like my workout partner who is black 5'7' 265 and a National level competitor.Ladies if you want to stay feminine(which is the way the sport is going avoid test and /or experiment w/ small amounts everybody acts diff)I bet if you asked Lisa Aukland if she used or uses test she would say NO!and that is the look for women bodybuilding in the future!TAT i dont know how you became or become a moderator but HEAVY forgot more about AAS last nite then you will ever know,stop the lies!!!!!!!

[fitbody]

.AAS use in women is a VERY serious subject and not something to be "guessed" or just blurted out w/out real 1st hand experience.She's giving(TAT) scientific charts on the chains of AAS and then giving crappy answers to basic q's like"i think most top pros take steriods,but not all of them,most have great genetics"What a stupid statement!!!Iris K MS.Olympia one of the nicest people i've ever met has great genetics but is on so much gear(test)she looks like my workout partner who is black 5'7' 265 and a National level competitor.Ladies if you want to stay feminine(which is the way the sport is going avoid test and /or experiment w/ small amounts everybody acts diff)I bet if you asked Lisa Aukland if she used or uses test she would say NO!and that is the look for women bodybuilding in the future!!!!!!!!


I HAVE TO AGREE about STERIOD USE IN WOMEN IS A VERY SERIOUS SUBJECT
and my heart fuckin' bleeds when i see stuff about chicks using alot of test and androgenic drugs saying they haven't experienced bad effects
i'm like YOU WILL just KEEP GOING !!!!!
and then what ?
you're standing infront of a mirror looking at yourself crying & or you see pics of yourself not recognizing who you are...
"WHAT HAVE I DONE ????????!!!!!!!"
its happens sutley...
it's not just like "BAM YOU'RE A MAN !"
it's a hair here a hair there, more and more
but we go into denial
and it pains me when i hear "THEY'RE SUCH A NICE PERSON"
i'm like "FUCK LOOK WHAT THEY'VE DONE TO THEMSELVES, I REMEMBER THEM A FEW YRS AGO THEY STILL LOOKED LIKE A WOMAN & PRETTY"
but people within the sport wanna protect their feelings i guess
but they are really in denial
i can feel them lining the firing squad up for me now...

[Toniann]

I am so sorry if I am changing the topic but for years now I have been hearing so many people say women's bodybuilding is changing, they are looking more for the feminine look. What is the feminine look? cause all the women that got there pro cards this year look feminine to me yet are still jacked, and to me can compete with Iris K. and the rest of them.
So maybe it's me but I don't see it but yet keep hearing people repeat themselves like parrots over and over again.
This is just my opinion.

[heavyiron]

Hello,
I am new to this forum and enjoy what I see thus far. I know this is an older thread but I have recently and am still on a cycle of sustanon 250 and dbol. I am a 39 year old woman. I took dbol at 10mg ed for 4 weeks and have been taking sustanon 250mg twice per week. Side effects are mild facial acne, swollen clitoris, and increased sex drive. I am having some nice strength gains. I have only participated in a testosterone cycle once before with testoviron with the same results. I did have light facial hair on that cycle. I have not had the excess hair issue on test but I do not have a lot of body hair to begin iwth. I am lucky enough I do not need to shave my legs. I am going to be on this cycle for 6 weeks. I am on warafin and did have to adjust the warafin. I will say though that I did experience female ejaculation on this cycle. I did experience once before but very mildly. Since being on this cycle I have five cases with female ejaculation (three were in one session). First time I was so embarrassed. I wasn't sure what the hell happened. I am very happy with the results thus far and have only one week left. Anyone is welcome to ask me any questions providing they are not a question from a smart ass.
Am I reading this right???

You are on 500mg of T per week???

[whatdayaknow]

I HAVE TO AGREE about STERIOD USE IN WOMEN IS A VERY SERIOUS SUBJECT
and my heart fuckin' bleeds when i see stuff about chicks using alot of test and androgenic drugs saying they haven't experienced bad effects
i'm like YOU WILL just KEEP GOING !!!!!
and then what ?
you're standing infront of a mirror looking at yourself crying & or you see pics of yourself not recognizing who you are...
"WHAT HAVE I DONE ????????!!!!!!!"
its happens sutley...
it's not just like "BAM YOU'RE A MAN !"
it's a hair here a hair there, more and more
but we go into denial
and it pains me when i hear "THEY'RE SUCH A NICE PERSON"
i'm like "FUCK LOOK WHAT THEY'VE DONE TO THEMSELVES, I REMEMBER THEM A FEW YRS AGO THEY STILL LOOKED LIKE A WOMAN & PRETTY"
but people within the sport wanna protect their feelings i guess
but they are really in denial
i can feel them lining the firing squad up for me now...


I agree most women or people for that matter can not do any good or great thing in moderation. I however am disciplined enough to put my time in on a cycle and be done with it. I once did a cycle of test prior to the one I am on currently. That was about 7 years ago. I will point out also that I rarely cycle regardless. I am more responsible than most especially when it comes to items which may permanently alter my body or worse endanger my health.

[barbellbarbie]

OH WOW.... 500mg.. of sustanon.. a week.. do you not care about virilization???

i wouldnt even use sustanon.. let alone anything.. REMOTELY.. near that dose!.. if you start to feel a side you have absolutely no way to stop it on something that takes so long to get out..

[whatdayaknow]

Am I reading this right???

You are on 500mg of T per week???

Sorry I Was not clear I am using Sust 250 1/2 ml each injection twice per week.

[barbellbarbie]

that is still ALOT.. and its the type of ester that if you start to feel a side (sore throat, hyper sensitivity.swelling) it will take so long to get out of your body that the warning will in fact become a side effect.. have you considered switching to prop? at a lower dose then that per week? unless u actually do not care then whatever.. but if you DO care.. you probably need to reconsider that ASAP

[whatdayaknow]

that is still ALOT.. and its the type of ester that if you start to feel a side (sore throat, hyper sensitivity.swelling) it will take so long to get out of your body that the warning will in fact become a side effect.. have you considered switching to prop? at a lower dose then that per week? unless u actually do not care then whatever.. but if you DO care.. you probably need to reconsider that ASAP

This is a 6 week cycle that I will be done with next week. I have already noticed the test kick in with minimal side effects. You are correct though continued use will result in the altering of my body into that of a man. That would be incredibly irresponsible.

[barbellbarbie]

6 weeks is pretty short for sus.. are you aware of the ester length on this? can i ask why you chose it? basically by the time it starts helping you produce gains your cycle ends..

is there a reason you chose sus over prop?

[Toniann]

This is a 6 week cycle that I will be done with next week. I have already noticed the test kick in with minimal side effects. You are correct though continued use will result in the altering of my body into that of a man. That would be incredibly irresponsible.


Why are you on a blood thinner? Warfarin is Rx. to people with cardio vascular disease

[whatdayaknow]

6 weeks is pretty short for sus.. are you aware of the ester length on this? can i ask why you chose it? basically by the time it starts helping you produce gains your cycle ends..

is there a reason you chose sus over prop?

Sure I had a female friend who chose the exact cycle that I am on. She is now on a similar cycle. She had great results with while using. For a woman my age going to be 40 soon) test certainly does not have as much damage potential as a yonug woman in her early 20s.

[barbellbarbie]

Sure I had a female friend who chose the exact cycle that I am on. She is now on a similar cycle. She had great results with while using. For a woman my age going to be 40 soon) test certainly does not have as much damage potential as a yonug woman in her early 20s.
agreed but you say you have facial hair and a swollen clit.. these are very serious and very likely permanent.. and they didnt HAVE to happen.. i run 10-16 weeks of test prop 40mg MWF and have never had any side other than my hair getting wavy all of a sudden..if at any point during my cycle i saw hair that shouldnt be there or my clit was sensitive or swollen or my throat started to hurt i could lower or discontinue and the substance would be gone before i actually got the side effect..

[whatdayaknow]

agreed but you say you have facial hair and a swollen clit.. these are very serious and very likely permanent.. and they didnt HAVE to happen.. i run 10-16 weeks of test prop 40mg MWF and have never had any side other than my hair getting wavy all of a sudden..if at any point during my cycle i saw hair that shouldnt be there or my clit was sensitive or swollen or my throat started to hurt i could lower or discontinue and the substance would be gone before i actually got the side effect..

Actually I stated I had light facial hair from prior use. None with this. All of the side effects are the same from my previous test cycle with the exception of the facial hair. All went away once it was out of my system completely. This is how it worked out for me. All women respond differently to test or any drug for that matter.

[heavyiron]

Sorry I Was not clear I am using Sust 250 1/2 ml each injection twice per week.
Ah, I see. What prompted you to use that dose and those esters?

[barbellbarbie]

Ah, I see. What prompted you to use that dose and those esters?
see her response to when i asked those questions...

[barbellbarbie]

Actually I stated I had light facial hair from prior use. None with this. All of the side effects are the same from my previous test cycle with the exception of the facial hair. All went away once it was out of my system completely. This is how it worked out for me. All women respond differently to test or any drug for that matter.
ofcourse they do.. i guess im just of the school of thought that i would rather be safe than sorry.. i refuse to permanently negatively alter my body over a hobby ya know..

[heavyiron]

see her response to when i asked those questions...
I would rather ask my own questions and dialouge with her directly if you don't mind.

[rainjack]

Sorry I Was not clear I am using Sust 250 1/2 ml each injection twice per week.

Wow. That's at least 5X more than I have heard recommended for women. My wife was on var for 6 weeks a few years ago, and at then only 5mg/day.

[sassy69]

Really Sassy all her qoutes make sense if there highjacked from LLwwellyns book,it's just the point of why act like you have this great knowledge when your stealn somebody elses info.AAS use in women is a VERY serious subject and not something to be "guessed" or just blurted out w/out real 1st hand experience.She's giving(TAT) scientific charts on the chains of AAS and then giving crappy answers to basic q's like"i think most top pros take steriods,but not all of them,most have great genetics"What a stupid statement!!!Iris K MS.Olympia one of the nicest people i've ever met has great genetics but is on so much gear(test)she looks like my workout partner who is black 5'7' 265 and a National level competitor.Ladies if you want to stay feminine(which is the way the sport is going avoid test and /or experiment w/ small amounts everybody acts diff)I bet if you asked Lisa Aukland if she used or uses test she would say NO!and that is the look for women bodybuilding in the future!TAT i dont know how you became or become a moderator but HEAVY forgot more about AAS last nite then you will ever know,stop the lies!!!!!!!


Trying to keep this thread readable. Not everyone knows what "all Tat's posts are"... continuity helps.

[sassy69]

Wow. That's at least 5X more than I have heard recommended for women. My wife was on var for 6 weeks a few years ago, and at then only 5mg/day.


FWIW, 5 mg of var for 6 weeks is an extremely conservative cycle, great for a beginner, but doesn't touch what an experienced cycler might use. Because this is still and always each person's personal experiment, each will hopefully be making intelligent choices in their cycles, based on previous experience with its various trial & error.

[s2h]

Sorry 1fitchic,yes all the women who gained pro cards this year were on some type of gear(lets be honest)but there not in Irisi's class and cant compete w/ her,she's the Ronnie Coleman of womens BB in shape(which is almost always) she's untouchable at this point.But you put here next to lisa aukland and then you say "wow" Lisa has great size,shape,symetry,conditioning,the only difference is IRIS is bigger and thats because of her choice to use a more aggresive(test) supp program,I mean she fixed her hair and make-up and siut and so on to give herself a more feminnine look this year,but in person she looks like and talks like a man,and Lisa doesnt(now she is a pharmacist so maybe she has a little extra up her sleeve)but as a man/BB ii find Lisa all around along w/ many others ie Tina Chandler to have a look that really shows a womens beauty along w/ her muscularity!!

[rainjack]

FWIW, 5 mg of var for 6 weeks is an extremely conservative cycle, great for a beginner, but doesn't touch what an experienced cycler might use. Because this is still and always each person's personal experiment, each will hopefully be making intelligent choices in their cycles, based on previous experience with its various trial & error.

I don't disagree. And yes - it was my wife's first cycle. But I just can't see a woman needing 250mg/week of testosterone to make muscle gains.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to pass judgment on anyone. Perhaps I am ignorant of the female BBing world.

[sassy69]

I don't disagree. And yes - it was my wife's first cycle. But I just can't see a woman needing 250mg/week of testosterone to make muscle gains.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to pass judgment on anyone. Perhaps I am ignorant of the female BBing world.


I understand where you're coming from but by the same token, I don't see why guys think they need 4 g of test to make gains either. What might be extreme from one person's perception, may be nothing new to another's. For a newb, I'd be ranting all over the place about poor choice to start with, but again, this is each person's choice to pursue. Here, we try to at least make discussion available to help make intelligent choices. Each person has different goals and purposes for running cycles. People judge women more harshly on this topic, but that's where it goes back to a person (male or female) making intelligent choices and dealing w/ the outcome.

[whatdayaknow]

Well I did have first hand knowledge and experience with a woman similar to my age. I did all of my homework. I read and read and then read some more. I did not go into this blindly. I all did some research on f-m transsexual to see what doses and how much time it generally takes the test to work for transformation to begin. To be honest I was surprised how long the process can take. Most of the time people advise me on how bad this cycle are people who have very little knowledge of the virlization process. One thing that has always surprised me is how little people know about the compounds they are injecting into their body. A woman my age for a very short period of time can take testosterone without any permanent side effects. Please keep in mind not all women will share the same experience that I have had. Here by the way is a decent article.
(http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/anthony-roberts/women-and-anabolic-steroids.htm)
http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/anthony-roberts/women-and-anabolic-steroids.htm

[rainjack]

I understand where you're coming from but by the same token, I don't see why guys think they need 4 g of test to make gains either. What might be extreme from one person's perception, may be nothing new to another's. For a newb, I'd be ranting all over the place about poor choice to start with, but again, this is each person's choice to pursue. Here, we try to at least make discussion available to help make intelligent choices. Each person has different goals and purposes for running cycles. People judge women more harshly on this topic, but that's where it goes back to a person (male or female) making intelligent choices and dealing w/ the outcome.

Oh - trust me, sister - I am the biggest fan of the less-is-more school of thought when it comes to men and AAS.

I agree 100% that we need to leave our judgments at the door when it comes to this community. I wished I had started reading this forum sooner. I would love for my wife to understand that there are women taking AAS, and they aren't all hermaphrodus freaks.

[whatdayaknow]

I think you would be surprised as to how many women take test. Most will not admit that they are on a test cycle our of fear of judgement. Whenever I have mentioned about me taking test everyone starts in with the you are going to turn into a man thing. I am extremely feminine. I am very educated on how what I am taking works. Plus I have direct knowledge of women woh are taking it and quizzed them with as many questions that I could think of. High doses of testoserone in a woman will convert into estrogen just as a male. It does take close to year of continually being on test for real permanent side effects to take place. Now some women may react quicker and others slower.

[heavyiron]

I think you would be surprised as to how many women take test. Most will not admit that they are on a test cycle our of fear of judgement. Whenever I have mentioned about me taking test everyone starts in with the you are going to turn into a man thing. I am extremely feminine. I am very educated on how what I am taking works. Plus I have direct knowledge of women woh are taking it and quizzed them with as many questions that I could think of. High doses of testoserone in a woman will convert into estrogen just as a male. It does take close to year of continually being on test for real permanent side effects to take place. Now some women may react quicker and others slower.
I am an advocate of women using Testosterone but I rarely see these dosages posted along with the limited sides you are describing. Basically 250mg weekly of T would put the average guy in the high end of the range for Total T (1,000ng/dl) Since men have their male characteristics at this dose it seems odd that you are not experiencing more sides. Did your friend have sides at this dose?

[whatdayaknow]

I am an advocate of women using Testosterone but I rarely see these dosages posted along with the limited sides you are describing. Basically 250mg weekly of T would put the average guy in the high end of the range for Total T (1,000ng/dl) Since men have their male characteristics at this dose it seems odd that you are not experiencing more sides. Did your friend have sides at this dose?


She has had some acne but has diligently use proactiv, no increased sex drive, some facial hair, she is very blond naturally so this hair that has appeared is very light blonde as well so not really noticeable. With me I am lucky as far as the hair goes. I don't have hair on my legs well some very light hair but I never have to shave my legs. Keep in mind that both of us are in our late 30s. I am going to be 40 soon. I did forget to mention that my blood pressure went up while on the dbol and hers too. I also did experience some water retention. Her menstrual completely stopped. I don't know about mine yet.

[heavyiron]

She has had some acne but has diligently use proactiv, no increased sex drive, some facial hair, she is very blond naturally so this hair that has appeared is very light blonde as well so not really noticeable. With me I am lucky as far as the hair goes. I don't have hair on my legs well some very light hair but I never have to shave my legs. Keep in mind that both of us are in our late 30s. I am going to be 40 soon. I did forget to mention that my blood pressure went up while on the dbol and hers too. I also did experience some water retention. Her menstrual completely stopped. I don't know about mine yet.
Interesting, What are your stats?

[whatdayaknow]

Interesting, What are your stats?

5' 135 right now, but generally more towards 125 when not on a cycle.

[heavyiron]

5' 135 right now, but generally more towards 125 when not on a cycle.
It would be interesting to get hormonal labs while you are on.

[whatdayaknow]

Final thing on side effects is that I do have some minor hair loss. I am talking like maybe 5-10 per day. For the hair I do not have on the rest of my body I have more than enough on my head. I am a hispanic woman and I have very thick hair. I had the same issue with my prior cycle of test. However when I stopped using it came in thicker than ever.

[s2h]

I totally agree with you Sassy women are judged far more greater than men when it comes to supp usage when it comes to test.

[rainjack]

I totally agree with you Sassy women are judged far more greater than men when it comes to supp usage when it comes to test.

But the gap is closing. I was at the mall yesterday looking for a Texas Tech t-shirt as we are going to the Alamo Bowl next week. Anyhow - there was one particular shirt I wanted, but the biggest size they had on the rack was a large. The guy had to go in the back and conduct a thorough search for a 2XL.

2X isn't that damn big, but after spending about 20 minutes people watching - there aren't very many big guys around that aren't complete fat asses.

Couple that with the witch hunt for steroids, and guys as a population are being feminized at an alarming rate.

But then again - I could be wrong.

pardon the hijack, ladies.

[sassy69]

Final thing on side effects is that I do have some minor hair loss. I am talking like maybe 5-10 per day. For the hair I do not have on the rest of my body I have more than enough on my head. I am a hispanic woman and I have very thick hair. I had the same issue with my prior cycle of test. However when I stopped using it came in thicker than ever.

Nizoral shampoo helps w/ that. Also works as a body wash to help w/ hormonally driven acne.

[sassy69]

But the gap is closing. I was at the mall yesterday looking for a Texas Tech t-shirt as we are going to the Alamo Bowl next week. Anyhow - there was one particular shirt I wanted, but the biggest size they had on the rack was a large. The guy had to go in the back and conduct a thorough search for a 2XL.

2X isn't that damn big, but after spending about 20 minutes people watching - there aren't very many big guys around that aren't complete fat asses.

Couple that with the witch hunt for steroids, and guys as a population are being feminized at an alarming rate.

But then again - I could be wrong.

pardon the hijack, ladies.

You make an interesting point about the trends in the general population. I agree on the feminization (Abercrombization?) of the modern male. Another example that comes to mind is, even in the gym, the shrinking number of guys w/ any sort of legs to speak of.

[whatdayaknow]

You make an interesting point about the trends in the general population. I agree on the feminization (Abercrombization?) of the modern male. Another example that comes to mind is, even in the gym, the shrinking number of guys w/ any sort of legs to speak of.

I was just in the gym last Tuesday doing legs with my husband. There is this one kid who seems to be a nice guy and always has my husband spot him. He actually has a nice bench for his size. He is probably 5'8" and 150 lbs with a 225 lb bench for 3 reps. Back to last Tuesday he said to my husband "that's why I don't do legs, that grimacing look on your face". Also last week we noticed a guy who did nothing but work his biceps and triceps for an hour and a half. This is probably a guy who is 42 or 43 years old. I was thinking what a jack ass. Her had zero chest, legs, shoulders, or not a lot of biceps or triceps.

[rainjack]

You make an interesting point about the trends in the general population. I agree on the feminization (Abercrombization?) of the modern male. Another example that comes to mind is, even in the gym, the shrinking number of guys w/ any sort of legs to speak of.

I have an excuse for my legs. I hung on a horse for 20 years before I got into the BBing thing. That's why God invented baggy pants.

[fitbody]

I am so sorry if I am changing the topic but for years now I have been hearing so many people say women's bodybuilding is changing, they are looking more for the feminine look. What is the feminine look? cause all the women that got there pro cards this year look feminine to me yet are still jacked, and to me can compete with Iris K. and the rest of them.
So maybe it's me but I don't see it but yet keep hearing people repeat themselves like parrots over and over again.
This is just my opinion.

i have been around this sport a long time
and i have seen woman in the sport over time change
from very pretty to pretty fuckin' scary
you keep puttin good levels of male hormone into a female body
the body changes and becomes more masculine SIMPLE !
but feminity is subjective just like everything else
have you seen the movie Dodgeball
well below i attached a pic of the one girl who the skinny dorky guy fell in love with
now to alot of people she wouldn't be classified as pretty or feminine
but to him she was
my point

[fitbody]

ofcourse they do.. i guess im just of the school of thought that i would rather be safe than sorry.. i refuse to permanently negatively alter my body over a hobby ya know..

YOU'RE WISE for sure
alot of people think oh its not that bad...
until its too friggin late
and they think it's just gonna go away after they get off
take it from me yrs an yrs later
yrs and yrs off
electrolysis, hormone therapy, laser treatments
fuckin' painful beyond belief to try to undo the damage
not to mention the cost
and still dealing with it

it takes a wise person to learn by their mistakes
it takes a wiser person to learn by someone elses

[GirlyMuscle]

YOU'RE WISE for sure
alot of people think oh its not that bad...
until its too friggin late
and they think it's just gonna go away after they get off
take it from me yrs an yrs later
yrs and yrs off
electrolysis, hormone therapy, laser treatments
fuckin' painful beyond belief to try to undo the damage
not to mention the cost
and still dealing with it

it takes a wise person to learn by their mistakes
it takes a wiser person to learn by someone elses

Yet you still use. ??

[fitbody]

Yet you still use. ??

what the fuck is your point ?
cuz i'm saying she's wise for not taking stuff & amounts thatz gonna permanently damage her ?????
cuz i've learned the hard way about certain drugs & what they'll do to me as a woman ????

i'm fuckin' careful about what i take and the amounts i take
i've had long periods of being off totally like years
i'm trying to educate people with my experience
so hopefully they can make an educated decision
and know what maybe coming down the fuckin' pipeline
instead of sweeping under the carpet and not dealing with the actual facts
not only the physical damage
but the mental emotional and spiritual damage that comes along with it
you can deny this all you want
you can condem, criticize, chastise, cut me down
but the TRUTH ALWAYS REMAINS
I'M SPEAKING FROM EXPERIENCE
and once the damage is done it's fuckin' done

[GirlyMuscle]

My point is that you are very vocal about the use of aas, like you are trying to steer women away from it. At least that's how you come across. Yet you use yourself. It's just contradictory and I don't understand where you're coming from. It's ok for you but not anyone else?

[rainjack]

what the fuck is your point ?
cuz i'm saying she's wise for not taking stuff & amounts thatz gonna permanently damage her ?????
cuz i've learned the hard way about certain drugs & what they'll do to me as a woman ????

i'm fuckin' careful about what i take and the amounts i take
i've had long periods of being off totally like years
i'm trying to educate people with my experience
so hopefully they can make an educated decision
and know what maybe coming down the fuckin' pipeline
instead of sweeping under the carpet and not dealing with the actual facts
not only the physical damage
but the mental emotional and spiritual damage that comes along with it
you can deny this all you want
you can condem, criticize, chastise, cut me down
but the TRUTH ALWAYS REMAINS
I'M SPEAKING FROM EXPERIENCE
and once the damage is done it's fuckin' done


Your post looks like a poem - but nothing rhymes.

Just sayin'.

[fitbody]

Yet you still use. ??

if i could change the sport and get all woman tested i would !
then i wouldn't have to use to compete in the sport i love
but for now it's the way of the world
so if i wanna compete i'm doing what i gotta do within the boundries i set for myself
i'm not willing to fuck myself up to the point that i've crossed the gender line
and turned myself into a "what the fuck is that?"

[fitbody]

Your post looks like a poem - but nothing rhymes.

Just sayin'.

ha ha i'm slightly off
but if you get to know me
you'll come to understand...
THATZ JUST ME :)
its easier for me to type, read & understand things in that form
maybe its my dyslexia, ADD or maybe just cuz i like it, dunno !
actually i do rhyme sometimes
depends on my mood :hypno:

[s2h]

250 is still alot!!

[GirlyMuscle]

Understood.

But why not compete as a natty then? Look at MS Guns. Three time pro in three natty orgs. You don't have to use if you don't want to.

Women are going to do what they want. No amount of preaching to them on the dangers of steriods is going to change the sport. It's too far gone for that. There will always be someone willing to go too far.

[rainjack]

250 is still alot!!

I am on Doc prescribed HRT. My dosage is 300mg/week. I weigh 235 and I stand up when I pee.

I have to think someone is not reading the bottle right, or has purchased some bunk gear.

[s2h]

no girlymuscle she is giving rea life experience,similiar to my posts earlier and alot of women should listen very closly to what fitbody has to say,i deal w/ this everyday w/ waht and not what my bb wife should take example she won our state championship on supps(not test)even though many to include other top girls suggested it.It is apersonal decision but a final one if it's made wrong,VERY good info Fitbody i cant agree w/ you more!

[fitbody]

My point is that you are very vocal about the use of aas, like you are trying to steer women away from it. At least that's how you come across. Yet you use yourself. It's just contradictory and I don't understand where you're coming from. It's ok for you but not anyone else?

i think women should steer away from it !
but if they wanna compete in bodybuilding or other sports THEY WORK ITS JUST THAT SIMPLE
and YOU HAVE TO USE THEM TO COMPETE OR YOU CAN'T COMPETE, FACT !
its not contradictory
it's saying they work but if you use them this can & will happen to you to some extent
it's not some fuckin' book saying oh you can get this or that
it's me as a woman having taken a variety of substances saying...
when i took this and that on these dosages this is what happened to me
and this is what i went thru and still go thru
and this is what i've had to do to myself in order to try to undo some of the damage i have done

IF ANYONE WANTS TO GROW FACIAL HAIR,
SHAVE THEIR FACE LIKE A MAN ONCE OR TWICE A DAY
GET THEIR VOCAL CORDS TO THICKEN WHERE SOME PEOPLE ON THE PHONE THINK YOU SOUND LIKE A MAN INSTEAD OF A WOMAN
LAY FOR HOURS AND HOURS EVERY WEEK FOR YEARS ON A TABLE GETTIN YOUR FACE ELECTROCUTED TO REMOVE THE HAIR
THATZ EXTREMELY PAINFUL
OR THE LASER JUST AS PAINFUL
then have at 'er !!!!!!
go for it
as long as you are aware of this
the choice is fully your responsibility !

me i take responsibility for my actions
i know what drugs & doses effect me
am i willing to pay the price i paid in my younger life for the same usage
HELL NO !!!!!!!!
am i all for other women disfiguring themselves to the point they hate themselves, what they've done, become suicidal, reclusive and a variety of other things that can be a result of the damage they've inflicted on themselves in the name of sport
HELL NO !!!!!
do i understand why women do it
HELL YA !!!!
do i have to like it
NO !
can i do anything about it ?
YEAH I CAN SHARE MY EXPERIENCE & KNOWLEDGE IN HOPES IT MAY HELP JUST ONE PERSON
and contrary to your most probable belief i've helped many make a decision that was correct for them
at least some may think before they leap & find things out afterward
at least they heard it first instead of after the fact

[GirlyMuscle]

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you because of the way you write. I mean nothing accusatory by that. It just seems to me you regret your usage and try to warn others but then continue to use. You know...do as I say, not as I do. Like I said, maybe I'm just misunderstanding. Sorry!

[s2h]

SASSY continuity helps,but hell she's got so many posts,i'd be here all day tryn to deciefer them all out,so i tryd to put it in a nut shell,sorry if it was confusing,please keep posting i enjoy your insite and knowledge of womens AAS use!!!

[s2h]

girly you have to really understand her point here,i'm stickn up for her cause she's right nothing beats real world experience and my assumption is that her (fitbody) knows what and what not to take that effects her body in certain ways.Some women can take 10ng of var and get sides some can take 200mg of primo a week and get nothn but a big clit,i really think her point is dont just go for it take it slow and find out what things do to you,before you do look in the mirror and say "oh shit' what have i done or get called "sir' at the grocery store.My AAS use is pretty advanced as far as women(iam a man)but have found it is much more voliatile for the ladies!

[fitbody]

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you because of the way you write. I mean nothing accusatory by that. It just seems to me you regret your usage and try to warn others but then continue to use. You know...do as I say, not as I do. Like I said, maybe I'm just misunderstanding. Sorry!

I don't regret anything i've done'
because of what i've done i can share my experience which has helped lots of people
and has stopped some altogether
but at least the ones who do go down that road are aware
not going ahead blindfolded !

i'm not cranked hard on lots of androgens
my dosage last yr was less than lots of figure girls i know
and i competed at nationals in the heavywts for Gods sake
at 5 foot 2 1/2 at 147 lbs

when i got the most damage from crank i was a naive young girl
who trusted her husband that was 20 yrs older who was a God to her
he injected me
i trusted him
and he wasn't honest with what he was giving me till i quit
cuz i hated myself and what i'd become and wanted to kill myself
of course he was only doing to me what he knew to make me into the best
and he was actually correct
cuz thatz what it takes to win the big show now isn't it

so now i always ask myself what am i willing to do to get what i want ?
anything ?
well when it comes to bodybuilding now ~ NO I'M NOT WILLING TO DO ANYTHING
although sometimes i'm tempted, ha ha thatz the truth
sometimes i just wanna go fuck it take it all level the playing field
but lucky for me i got people in my life that put me back on the rails
like i was having this talk with one of my closest girls today over coffee
going "FUCK I JUST WANT MY PRO CARD SO BAD MAYBE I SHOULD JUST SAY FUCK IT & DO WHAT I KNOW I NEED TO DO AND DEAL WITH AFTERMATH AFTER THAT !"
she's like "FUCK NO DAWN I'M NOT GONNA LET YOU DO THAT TO YOURSELF"
i'm like "You're right!"
sometimes i need that....
like Dave has set me straight on this too when i'm having a weak moment
its hard, thatz the nature of it
and once you've got those side effects that never totally go away
you say to yourself "FUCK IT MAY AS WELL JUST GO ON WITH IT CUZ STILL HAVE THE SIDE EFFECTS ANYWAY WHATZ A LITTLE MORE !"

[whatdayaknow]

I know that some women can certainly be careless using test but has anyone ever known a woman to use tren? This is something I wouldn't even consider but have read a few stories of women on tren.

[fitbody]

I know that some women can certainly be careless using test but has anyone ever known a woman to use tren? This is something I wouldn't even consider but have read a few stories of women on tren.

i used it before my shows in 2008
only on a few months as per my old coach (Not Dave another trainer)
really didn't have a bad experience on it
it was the only time i ever took it was precontest for those shows
i liked how it made me look
as far as my attitude
my boyfriend at the time i wanted to do away with him as he was making me insane anyway
so i wouldn't say it was the Tren that made me kick him to the curb once and for all
he had it coming anyway !

[whatdayaknow]

i used it before my shows in 2008
only on a few months as per my old coach (Not Dave another trainer)
really didn't have a bad experience on it
it was the only time i ever took it was precontest for those shows
i liked how it made me look
as far as my attitude
my boyfriend at the time i wanted to do away with him as he was making me insane anyway
so i wouldn't say it was the Tren that made me kick him to the curb once and for all
he had it coming anyway !

That's funny. I do understand from only reading that more and more women are taking it.

[fitbody]

That's funny. I do understand from only reading that more and more women are taking it.

whatz funny is
right after that season i listened to one of the first radio shows i ever listened to
No bull radio
and Dave & John were talking about how it was a relationship killer
i laughed my ass off cuz i just booted the bastard out while on Tren
haha
everyone was saying to me just wait till after your show till you get some carbs in your system
cuz thatz probably why you're hating him
as soon as i got carbs in me i booted him out of my life so fuckin' fast he didn't know what hit him
and my life is soooooooo much better now

[whatdayaknow]

whatz funny is
right after that season i listened to one of the first radio shows i ever listened to
No bull radio
and Dave & John were talking about how it was a relationship killer
i laughed my ass off cuz i just booted the bastard out while on Tren
haha
everyone was saying to me just wait till after your show till you get some carbs in your system
cuz thatz probably why you're hating him
as soon as i got carbs in me i booted him out of my life so fuckin' fast he didn't know what hit him
and my life is soooooooo much better now

I am glad you are better now. I am fortunate to have been married to a great guy for going on 16 years now. Nothing worse than a bad relationship and nothing better than a great one.

[fitbody]

I am glad you are better now. I am fortunate to have been married to a great guy for going on 16 years now. Nothing worse than a bad relationship and nothing better than a great one.

here here to that !
i missed being married !
so hard to find a good one...
i have hope, faith & believe that when the times right paths will cross :)

[sassy69]

Tren is, suprisingly, not uncommon for women to use. That said, I hope no one reads this and thinks its a drug to not take very seriously.

The aggression w/ tren is interesting - I've known guys who are very even-keeled in general, and on most other compounds. But just add tren, insta-asshole. Crazy how things affect our chemistry. Again this is why this literally is your own personal chemistry experiment - you have no idea how each person is going to respond, and in so many different dimensions.

[whatdayaknow]

It is just such a powerful androgen. I wonder what is next. You know at some point there will be something that comes along that is much stronger than tren.

[s2h]

its really funny cause i can take tren,like 100mg eod and never change a bit and i'm a nice guy to begin w/ unless tatayana pisses me off)i've never taken any gear thats changed my mood except cheque drops.AS far as women and trenn i know alot of girls who will run it close(2 weeks out) from a show and it does hardn them up alot and makes most not so very lets say "loving"

[cat]

Your post looks like a poem - but nothing rhymes.

Just sayin'.

It's a Haiku

[sassy69]

It is just such a powerful androgen. I wonder what is next. You know at some point there will be something that comes along that is much stronger than tren.

At least in the context of competition prep, it falls into the category of proviron, masteron, winny, etc - fast-acting, zero conversion, tightens you up. I suppose the good news is that the period of time that these properties are needed is only at the point very close to showtime - - as noted above - maybe 2-4 weeks.

[K-Max]

It is just such a powerful androgen. I wonder what is next. You know at some point there will be something that comes along that is much stronger than tren.

With Myostatin inhibitors close to human trials, you have to wonder....

http://insidebodybuilding.blogspot.com/2009/12/super-strength-substance-myostatin-one.html

Though it's debatable how it might affect women as compared to guys.

[whatdayaknow]

Monkeys are strong enough without adding anything to them, LOOK OUT!!!

[fitbody]

It's a Haiku

really it has name ???
i'm not trying to be like anything
its just the way it flows for me ;)

[cat]

really it has name ???
i'm not trying to be like anything
its just the way it flows for me ;)

Love it!!

[Carolyn Bryant]

what the fuck is your point ?
cuz i'm saying she's wise for not taking stuff & amounts thatz gonna permanently damage her ?????
cuz i've learned the hard way about certain drugs & what they'll do to me as a woman ????

i'm fuckin' careful about what i take and the amounts i take
i've had long periods of being off totally like years
i'm trying to educate people with my experience
so hopefully they can make an educated decision
and know what maybe coming down the fuckin' pipeline
instead of sweeping under the carpet and not dealing with the actual facts
not only the physical damage
but the mental emotional and spiritual damage that comes along with it
you can deny this all you want
you can condem, criticize, chastise, cut me down
but the TRUTH ALWAYS REMAINS
I'M SPEAKING FROM EXPERIENCE
and once the damage is done it's fuckin' done

Whoa Nelly! This sounds familiar.

[mygirlsdad]

What would you suggest for a newbie doing her first figure show?

[sassy69]

What would you suggest for a newbie doing her first figure show?

Do the figure show first. Why is it necessary to run a cycle?

[s2h]

do the show no drugs are gonna make a difference on a 1st or 2nd time figure girl,hey sassy when u leavn to cabo?send pics for al of us freezn our asses off!

[sassy69]

do the show no drugs are gonna make a difference on a 1st or 2nd time figure girl,hey sassy when u leavn to cabo?send pics for al of us freezn our asses off!

Heading out on Wednesday! Wohoo! Counting the hours at this point! :yep:

[whatdayaknow]

Heading out on Wednesday! Wohoo! Counting the hours at this point! :yep:

Have you been there before? What part of the states are you from? My husband spends a lot of time there fishing. He is going to Los Barriles in May which is north of Cabo.

[mygirlsdad]

Do the figure show first. Why is it necessary to run a cycle?

It's not. I'm just trying to get some feedback by some women that are experienced. Possibly some T3 or Clen? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated...

[sassy69]

It's not. I'm just trying to get some feedback by some women that are experienced. Possibly some T3 or Clen? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated...

Not to cut you off, but rather to keep this thread on topic, if you use the search button or just look down the list of threads on this forum you will find a lot of information. If said girl is interested in playing w/ controlled substances of any sort, SHE needs to actively educate herself - i.e .its nice you're asking, but SHE needs to get in there & read & ask questions. - Her body, her results, her sides. You should find all the info you need and then some.

[whatdayaknow]

Here is a good article:

http://female.bodybuildbid.com/training/women-steroids.html

[sassy69]

Have you been there before? What part of the states are you from? My husband spends a lot of time there fishing. He is going to Los Barriles in May which is north of Cabo.

Nope, never been. I've been to Rocky Point several times back in college (closest point between Phoenix & water..) and Cozumel. But never Cabo.

[whatdayaknow]

Nope, never been. I've been to Rocky Point several times back in college (closest point between Phoenix & water..) and Cozumel. But never Cabo.

My husband likes it a lot. Great fishing there. He alternates between there and Costa Rica. It is also very clean and safe though. His only complaint is how small the portions of food are in the restaurants.

[Tauren777]

Are the doses a lot of you have referenced as being safe, what many figure and fitness women take? Kind of a stupid question and assumption, but i always assumed pro's take far higher does than even FTM's take due (which i have heard from various sources ranges from 50 to 250mg), to their looks and such.

[GirlyMuscle]

I think an important thing to consider is this. You can't compare yourself to anyone but yourself. If you are going to follow the aas route, start small and conservatively. Compare each cycle to your own experience....the cycle before it. Always research the hell out of whatever you're doing. Make an informed decision. Do what you feel is right for you...not what someone else has done for themselves.

[sassy69]

Are the doses a lot of you have referenced as being safe, what many figure and fitness women take? Kind of a stupid question and assumption, but i always assumed pro's take far higher does than even FTM's take due (which i have heard from various sources ranges from 50 to 250mg), to their looks and such.

Pretty broad discussion... It still goes back to what your purposes are and how well established you are in your diet & training. Any AAS is only a supplement to an already well-established diet & training program that is producing the results you want. Its not a catch-up, a quicky fix or anything else. It takes time to build (aka "earn" & keep) muscle.

For beginners and probably most amateur level figure girls (and NOT NOT NOT Bikini girls ... if you need drugs to do a bikini show, you REALLY need to reassess your priorities), anavar is your entry point - usually at 10 mg / day. No need to go higher or more aggressive. The sides for var are the "most predictable" (though you are still doing your very own experiment and no one can guarantee any particular results or sides). Other common options are winstrol and primo. But both of these are more androgenic and less predictable in terms of sides.

What pros use or more experienced people is really going to be what they've determined works for them as far as acceptable levels of sides. We also assume diet & training are again, well-established & dialed into the goal.

The 1/4/10 Super Human Radio episode w/ Carl & Anthony Roberts gives a pretty good overview of many of the questions I can see as part of discussions that start off these questions.

Super Human Radio LIVE Monday 01/04/10 - Women AND AAS - What Works.. Sides, Etc. - RX Muscle Forums

-- click on the link, then search for the Super Human Channel, and select the Podcasts icon on the right.

[s2h]

I would think with the way the ifbb is going w/ womens BB and figure.A figure girl at best is gona go w/ var,gh,t3/clen.In BB there really looking for that femine facial look/voice more so than the physique i believe.Lisa Aukalnad is a prime example of the modern day BB female,lots of muscle-looks and talks like a women.I personally know 1 ifbb BB a she has placed in the top 6 in 2 shows(not major the 2 major ones)and she is backed way off to primo,var,gh,t3 ,clen only,not that she was very masculan to begin w/ but knows where the sport is heading.Bikini was the "RED LIGHT" that the ifbb was going softer all the way around w/ women.Hell the bikini girlr that just won the Nationals had a soft butt,one of the girls i know came in 6th and they said she was to hard,look at the pics,her name is Taylor Mathney,tell me she doesnt look better than the girl who one,it's all about the soft look now and i'm ok w/ the women bb going away from the "man" look but the rest is getnn to soft.MY wife is a BB so i have first hand exp, with this subject a bit!!!!

[sassy69]

I would think with the way the ifbb is going w/ womens BB and figure.A figure girl at best is gona go w/ var,gh,t3/clen.In BB there really looking for that femine facial look/voice more so than the physique i believe.Lisa Aukalnad is a prime example of the modern day BB female,lots of muscle-looks and talks like a women.I personally know 1 ifbb BB a she has placed in the top 6 in 2 shows(not major the 2 major ones)and she is backed way off to primo,var,gh,t3 ,clen only,not that she was very masculan to begin w/ but knows where the sport is heading.Bikini was the "RED LIGHT" that the ifbb was going softer all the way around w/ women.Hell the bikini girlr that just won the Nationals had a soft butt,one of the girls i know came in 6th and they said she was to hard,look at the pics,her name is Taylor Mathney,tell me she doesnt look better than the girl who one,it's all about the soft look now and i'm ok w/ the women bb going away from the "man" look but the rest is getnn to soft.MY wife is a BB so i have first hand exp, with this subject a bit!!!!

I'm gonna venture that you probably need to add additionally, but less used: masteron, tren, proviron, eq, small amounts of prop. At least if you're going into the BB side.

My bigger concern is for the girls who are more fixated on competing than their preparation and want to get into the drugs when they haven't even spent a legitimate amount of time in the gym in the first place.

[GirlyMuscle]

Is there a standard length of time a women should or shouldn't run a test cycle?

[s2h]

I can agree w/ that Sassy,that is way i think the Npc and ifbb are going to a softer look to keep the girls from doing just what you stated and thats use more drugs and not enough gym time,and i left out a few(rememeber i'm a man i can only rememeber so much)proviron,eq,mast and a lil prop are all good for the experienced BB'r female also.Did you check out the girl i said got 6th,i talked to her today and she's frustrated cause she doesnt know if she should stay w/ bikini or go to figure(she has a had some success at figure)whata think?

[s2h]

GM it would depend on what kind of test and how much but i would tell a BBF to run 50 mg a week for no more than 6 weeks to keep a feminne look ,but all girls a re different,i diffffff,wouldnt recommend 500mg like there was in a recent post.

[s2h]

50mg of prop

[sassy69]

Is there a standard length of time a women should or shouldn't run a test cycle?


A typical Test Propioinate cycle is going to be something like 15-25 mg E3D and could run for I suppose 8-10 weeks. Depends on what your purpose is - e.g. off-season or prep. There's really no reason to use Cypionate or Enanthate, primarily because these are the longer esters and if you don't like the sides, you're stuck w/ them for a pretty long time.

[sassy69]

I can agree w/ that Sassy,that is way i think the Npc and ifbb are going to a softer look to keep the girls from doing just what you stated and thats use more drugs and not enough gym time,and i left out a few(rememeber i'm a man i can only rememeber so much)proviron,eq,mast and a lil prop are all good for the experienced BB'r female also.Did you check out the girl i said got 6th,i talked to her today and she's frustrated cause she doesnt know if she should stay w/ bikini or go to figure(she has a had some success at figure)whata think?


Just to keep this thread on topic, you might start a new thread for her.

[The Prodigy]

Will anyone share a successful cycle they have run? What compounds do you think pros are using?

[BiggTexx]

Tat, CJC1295 makes the body produce more growth hormone without shutting natural production down. The amount produced is significantly higher than what you would usually supplement with.

I have research that proves that CJC increases GH production tenfold which makes it very risky for women (despite the great benefits of increased GH). The morphed faces of bodybuilders, including enlarged foreheads and brow ridge, along with the jaw squaring are all results of excess growth.....not steroids!

Any other particular peptides you have in mind? There are tons of them, with very few clinical studies, and only anecdotal evidence.

K. C. Leung, N. Doyle, M. Ballesteros, K. Sjogren, C. K. W. Watts, T. H. Low, G. M. Leong, R. J. M. Ross, and K. K. Y. Ho. Estrogen inhibits GH signaling by suppressing GH-induced JAK2 phosphorylation, an effect mediated by SOCS-2. PNAS. February 4, 2003 vol. 100 no. 3 1016-1021.

Abstract

Oral estrogen administration attenuates the metabolic action of growth hormone (GH) in humans. To investigate the mechanism involved, we studied the effects of estrogen on GH signaling through Janus kinase (JAK)2 and the signal transducers and activators of transcription (STATs) in HEK293 cells stably expressing the GH receptor (293GHR), HuH7 (hepatoma) and T-47D (breast cancer) cells. 293GHR cells were transiently transfected with an estrogen receptor-α expression plasmid and luciferase reporters with binding elements for STAT3 and STAT5 or the β-casein promoter. GH stimulated the reporter activities by four- to sixfold. Cotreatment with 17β-estradiol (E2) resulted in a dose-dependent reduction in the response of all three reporters to GH to a maximum of 49–66% of control at 100 nM (P < 0.05). No reduction was seen when E2 was added 1–2 h after GH treatment. Similar inhibitory effects were observed in HuH7 and T-47D cells. E2 suppressed GH-induced JAK2 phosphorylation, an effect attenuated by actinomycin D, suggesting a requirement for gene expression. Next, we investigated the role of the suppressors of cytokine signaling (SOCS) in E2 inhibition. E2 increased the mRNA abundance of SOCS-2 but not SOCS-1 and SOCS-3 in HEK293 cells. The inhibitory effect of E2 was absent in cells lacking SOCS-2 but not in those lacking SOCS-1 and SOCS-3. In conclusion, estrogen inhibits GH signaling, an action mediated by SOCS-2. This paper provides evidence for regulatory interaction between a sex steroid and the GH/JAK/STAT pathway, in which SOCS-2 plays a central mechanistic role.




This is just one of a few studies that found that estrogen impairs the ability of GH to stimulate hepatic IGF-I production because of its negative impact on the growth hormone receptor and signaling. Thus, injecting CJC 1295 or any GHRH by itself will be inhibited in its action on GH release by the sex hormone estrogen in women.

Now does this mean women won't benefit from peptides? Quite the opposite, GHRP's induce a greater GH release response in the somatotrophs in the presence of estrogen than GHRH. Never has it been show that peptides induce acromelagy as has been show in some cases with very high amounts of synthetic hGH. Many of the more masculinizing effects you see in some cases are due to heavy androgen usage combined with hGH.

Hope that clears up things a bit. By the way, very interesting discussion going on. It's about time our women come out and discuss this. Lots can be learned from these discussions as there is very little research on real life situations.

[axioma]

Reason being that test aromatizes in women just like it does in men. In pre-menopausal women with functional ovaries and with the body constantly trying to get back into a homeostatic state, you can only imagine what the increase in estrogen is like in a women on test who is not conscious of the fact that test actually does aromatize, contrary to what most of us have been conditioned to believe. Sort of along the same lines as the myth that women do not need to run PCT. If you think about it, logically, and without having to get into the medical aspect of things, if you are supplementing the body with a compound it produces naturally on its own, then the body will cease production of that particular hormone because it sees no need to produce it. That applies to women just as it applies to men. But most people tell women not to worry about PCT because test production in a women is of little to no importance if you are ignorant of the endless benefits that test has on the female endocrine system. Most experienced male users will tell you that they would never inhibit estrogen production from the body because the presence of estrogen actually has a positive impact on physique manipulation, to a certain extent. Controlling excess estrogen that is produces through aromatization is important, however inhibiting estrogen production completely is not advisable. Similarly, women need their natural test just as much as men need their natural estrogen. If you take a look at hormone replacement therapy in women, the future is treating menopause with test rather than an abundance of estrogen and progesterone.

I have worked with many women and through the years have been able to draw some very interesting conclusions in regards to how the female endocrine system reacts to anabolic steroids. The reason I recommend an AI is because an anti E is hardly enough to control the effects that this abundance of estrogen is producing in the body. Now granted many women have been able to get into contest shape running test, and will drop the compound however many week out depending on the length of the ester to drop excess water weight etc, but most women do not know how much harder they have made it on themselves to actually get in shape.

I personally love test. It was always on the top of my list of favorites. My skin is beautiful on test, my hair is thick, curly and healthy, my nails are beautiful, I am very even tempered, always in a good mood, sex drive is great..yada yada yada.....BUT...test has dramatically changed the way my body looks and how I carry my fat. In time, excess test will add inches to your waistline and if you choose to run test in your offseason, you will need to be extremely diet conscious as holding on to fat is far easier, especially if you are not running an AI or SERM, which most competitors do not do in the offseason and save for prep.

However, offseasons are generally the phase to put on size, and a little fat gain is not a bad thing. As you know, its almost impossible to put on muscle without fat. Just be cognizant of the fat to muscle ratio, and if you must run test in the offseason, a SERM is certainly sufficient.

I have studied this in depth and have even gone as far as discussing test usage with doctors who monitor transgender hormonal therapy. Believe it or not, its takes only 80mg of test/week introduced into the female system to change her genetic makeup and hormonal composition to that of the average male. I know women who have used twice that amount thinking they were not causing any internal damage as long as they had the external sides in check. That is the price women pay for ignorance and lack of personal experience.

As much as I love test, I did not realize the dramatic changes in my physique until It was a little too late. With as wide as my back is, my physique does not flow as much as it used to anymore because my waist has gotten wider. I also do not hold my fat the way I used to anymore and have a hard time getting my abs in even though my legs are shredded year round. My abs used to be the first thing to pop up.

I generally would not advise women to run any drugs that aromatize, period. I personally do not run test anymore and quite honestly, the only thing that I miss is the self confidence. It never did anything for my strength and only made it hard to get in shape.


I can go on and on forever. Sorry for the lengthy response. I was trying to be thorough. I hope this has helped.

Respect,

SS

Just read this...excellent post.

[Nitro Fueled Barbie/Mel Marx]

Anobolics Review makes a cd and book that breaks down all this and explains it to you in a very easy way....check it out.

[Bencher]

So the conclusion here is that women and test is an individualized matter. My wife has done var cycles(20mg daily) she has done winny cycles(tabs 20mg daily) and did a prop cycle some 7 years ago. I think the prop was her most successful cycle. Gained a good amount of muscle, strength was phenomenal. But, she was not on a strict diet. Was like a bulk cycle that we should have kept a little cleaner. So now she has steered clear of prop. Im not a big fan of her taking orals daily, I would prefer one to twice a week injects. Save some liver stress and would be easier to stay consistant. Not miss a day here and there. So general opinion.
Right now I have some EQ, some masteron and some test e. Can get prop in matter of days. Not a fan of test e for women with the long half life. The masteron is the one that makes me curious. It is on the lines of a tren, but not as harsh I believe. EQ have seen mixed reviews on here, but it too has a decent half life correct?
39 years old, 5'9" tall 150lbs bout 19%bf. Has a larger build structure wise. Had to go to full D cup last summer to give her a more balanced look. So, she needs to fill out her back and shoulder area. Have some T3 coming this week, she does not like clen. Is presently on 20mg winn dialy, not looking to add to this, looking to replace the winn.

[RVRose]

Im pretty new to bodybuilding, looking to compete in my first show this summer. Im natural, but was wondering about test boosters. I won some sups and one is T-Up Black. I dont know anything about this stuff or if women use it and what the effects are. Any info would be much appreciated

[tammyp]

So the conclusion here is that women and test is an individualized matter. My wife has done var cycles(20mg daily) she has done winny cycles(tabs 20mg daily) and did a prop cycle some 7 years ago. I think the prop was her most successful cycle. Gained a good amount of muscle, strength was phenomenal. But, she was not on a strict diet. Was like a bulk cycle that we should have kept a little cleaner. So now she has steered clear of prop. Im not a big fan of her taking orals daily, I would prefer one to twice a week injects. Save some liver stress and would be easier to stay consistant. Not miss a day here and there. So general opinion.
Right now I have some EQ, some masteron and some test e. Can get prop in matter of days. Not a fan of test e for women with the long half life. The masteron is the one that makes me curious. It is on the lines of a tren, but not as harsh I believe. EQ have seen mixed reviews on here, but it too has a decent half life correct?
39 years old, 5'9" tall 150lbs bout 19%bf. Has a larger build structure wise. Had to go to full D cup last summer to give her a more balanced look. So, she needs to fill out her back and shoulder area. Have some T3 coming this week, she does not like clen. Is presently on 20mg winn dialy, not looking to add to this, looking to replace the winn.

im confused. t3 and wanting to build? ditch the winny. masteron is a better choice here. 50 mg weekly. she doesnt need alot to see results. and eat to grow.

[sassy69]

Im pretty new to bodybuilding, looking to compete in my first show this summer. Im natural, but was wondering about test boosters. I won some sups and one is T-Up Black. I dont know anything about this stuff or if women use it and what the effects are. Any info would be much appreciated

I'm not familiar w/ T-Up Black. I checked the label - of course the primary ingredients are some secret mix of stuff. That always makes me wonder because there are well-known t-boosting products out there, as simple as tribulus terrestis or DHEA.

Also given there's so much online about this stuff, I googled "T-Up Black" and "women". Here's some of what I found:

http://www.weightlosssupplement.org/nutrex-t-up-black/ - review says there's nothing in it that actually builds muscle or promotes weightloss. Maybe give you a woody.

http://www.bestslimmingpills.org/nutrex-t-up-black/ - same site / info as the previous one.

Can't find anything else besides the marketing copy on all the sites selling it.

One interesting thing is that most of the "test boosters" out there have a warning that says not for children under 18 (read: males who have not completely developed yet) or women (read: as they don't want to be responsible for anything resulting from a shift in hormone profile). Here is their Warning: Warnings: Absolutley do not use if you are under 18 years of age, pregnant or nursing. Consult your physician before use if you have a medical condition or are taking any presription drugs. Nevre exceed the recommended maximum dosage. KEEP OUT OF REACH OF CHILDREN

Based on this I'd probably guess its ok to use that stuff since its not saying "not for women", and see what it actually does.

For OTC stuff that sounds like it actually works check out this thread on Epistane.
http://forums.rxmuscle.com/showthread.php?t=45928&highlight=epistane

[s2h]

epi..works well to harden ya up near the end for the ladies...

[capps]

Most male trainers, BFs and husbands sorting out your cycles.

:)
I disagree with that statement Tat, I think avoid people that have no real experience with dieting and training and supps for women, not just male trainers or husbands, bffs. Honestly it is good to see some women on here with some real knowledge. But in general, I have been around the sport for many years and find most women in the sport are clueless when it comes to supps advice. There are far too many women that workout for like a year or less and lose 20 or 30lbs and suddenly think they are a bber or fitness guru and even get on stage to compete once and then they are handing out advice with no real education. Avoid trainers that do not have your best interests in mind period! Sides from gear usage are largely irreversable. You cannot change that deep voice back, or stop growing that beard ect.. You need to as a female decide on what you are willing to risk and whether it is worth it. Are you gonna make a living of the industry or do you just want to win a show or your Pro Card? Too many women ruin their bodies and then a few years later stop competing.

[BikiniAshley_62]

I HAVE TO AGREE about STERIOD USE IN WOMEN IS A VERY SERIOUS SUBJECT
and my heart fuckin' bleeds when i see stuff about chicks using alot of test and androgenic drugs saying they haven't experienced bad effects
i'm like YOU WILL just KEEP GOING !!!!!
and then what ?
you're standing infront of a mirror looking at yourself crying & or you see pics of yourself not recognizing who you are...
"WHAT HAVE I DONE ????????!!!!!!!"
its happens sutley...
it's not just like "BAM YOU'RE A MAN !"
it's a hair here a hair there, more and more
but we go into denial
and it pains me when i hear "THEY'RE SUCH A NICE PERSON"
i'm like "FUCK LOOK WHAT THEY'VE DONE TO THEMSELVES, I REMEMBER THEM A FEW YRS AGO THEY STILL LOOKED LIKE A WOMAN & PRETTY"
but people within the sport wanna protect their feelings i guess
but they are really in denial
i can feel them lining the firing squad up for me now...

Wow!!! Such a poignant post!!!!