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AVBG
02-12-2009, 02:28 PM
have you found conducive to keep your gains constant?

I myself like to train with the emphasis on increasing the time under tension, meaning that I keep the movements controlled and somewhat slow as opposed to using ballistic momentum..

Tell us what you do? What works for you?

Discuss!

Wheels
02-12-2009, 02:43 PM
I used to train with a modified HIT method; bits and pieces I gleaned from Yates and Trudel. I've recently switched over to Eric Broser's P/RR/S method and it is a fantastic way to train; though I do decrease the volume a bit. I use a 4 day split spread out over 8 days. Bis get hit twice because they recover so much more quickly than everything else. TUT, as you support its efficacy in your training, is a big part of the training methodology.

LittleBIG
02-13-2009, 02:15 AM
I always do different exercises - every week is different. Only if I got a really great pump from a certain workout I consider doing it again the next week.
I never go unger 7 reps. If I can't complete 7-8 reps, I drop the weight and do a drop set.
My idea is keeping the muscle stressed at all time.
In the past few weeks I've been doing one week strictly barbells and the next one dumbells.The barbell week is a bit hevier and the dumbell week an idea liter ...
Keep the muscle guessing!!!

STEELERJ-XL
02-13-2009, 05:42 AM
I also do different things, no set exercise or rep scheme. But I am always looking for new ideas and ways of training.

AVBG
02-13-2009, 01:40 PM
I also do different things, no set exercise or rep scheme. But I am always looking for new ideas and ways of training.

what's working for you at the moment?

Koubs
02-13-2009, 03:58 PM
I made my best gains and currently train similar to J-Rod's training (very much like Max-OT)... So basically heavy weight (4-8 reps per set, taken to failure), and a lower overall volume (I go up to maybe 10 sets MAX for back and about 4 sets for bi's and tri's... not including warm-up sets for the first lift only...)

I make sure my form is good, full range of motion, and I try to increase weight or reps each time I perform the exercise... Currently, I do an "A" and "B" workout so that I will do the same workout every other week... I change my split every 10-12 weeks or so...

I always seem to come back to this style.. I've 'strayed away' and tried the higher volume workouts, I did not like the high volume workouts because it was impossible to maintain a high level of intensity throughout the workout... I've also tried DC training, Dorian style, P/RR/S... I liked DC training a lot, and may give it another go sometime.. But my current training is allowing me to make improvements and so I'm sticking with it for now...

Nic Brunicardi
02-13-2009, 04:03 PM
At the moment I'm doing DC. I've only been at it for a couple of weeks, but this is my second time on DC. First time went really well (a couple of years back), but I had to lay off the program due to shoulder problems.
Low volumen has always been what worked best for me. Slow on the negatives.

toddbz
02-13-2009, 04:29 PM
A big thing for me (although I'm 37) is to really limit the number of sets taken to failure. Keeping 1-2 in the tank and saving it for the next set/exercise not only allowed me to make better progress but train more often (that part kind of went hand in hand lol)

Gray
02-14-2009, 03:45 AM
I used to train with a modified HIT method; bits and pieces I gleaned from Yates and Trudel. I've recently switched over to Eric Broser's P/RR/S method and it is a fantastic way to train; though I do decrease the volume a bit. I use a 4 day split spread out over 8 days. Bis get hit twice because they recover so much more quickly than everything else. TUT, as you support its efficacy in your training, is a big part of the training methodology.

Can you post your training schedule please. I'm curious about this P/RR/S method.

Dan
02-15-2009, 05:02 PM
I find that heavy 8-10 reps with solid form really focusing on squeezing and slow negatives has worked the best for me

greuceanu
02-15-2009, 05:31 PM
I'm more of a powerlifter but i still train for my body to look proportional as much as possible.

What worked for me was strictly correlated to my levels of strength. The stronger and bigger i got,the less volume i used. I use an abbreviated version of linear periodization.

I usually do full ROM, work to or close to positive failure. As for rep speeds it depends on the exercise. On the powerlifts and multi joint movements i try to move fast, in an accelerated manner. On the few isolation exercises that i do,i alternate speeds, sometimes i'll use slower speeds. I consider muscle tension value generally more important than TUT.

On the powerlifts i take long breaks, up to 5 mins. On exercises that strain my system less, i take between 1-3 mins.

MichaelWayne
02-15-2009, 06:02 PM
I like to take a Ronnie-ish approach. Basic movements, heavy as I can go with good form (until the last few reps of the last set), keep the numbers around 4-7 exercise (depending on the muscle) 4-5 sets each and 8-12 reps. Kinda a version of HVT. Tried to train with a 'set program' but it doesn't keep my attention. I have a list that I like to go by, but variation is the key to every workout.

Guess the only way to call it anything would be "Instinct Training"

GrayBull
02-16-2009, 04:05 AM
Push/legs/pull

Three workouts for each day.

1. heavy
2. pre-exhaust
3. high rep

2 on/1 off. Will take 2 consecutive days rest every now and then when I'm feeling beat...

meatheadio
02-17-2009, 04:36 AM
I have found, through both my own training and working with other natural BB's that they benefit from a moderalty low volume training regimen, with only the last set of each exercise taken to momentary failure. Reps can vary from 8-15 and a variety of both slow deliberate reps and 'power' reps should be used.
For off-season I'd recommend a four week strength/mass training cycle, using mainly 'power' style concentric reps, whilst still controlling the eccentric portion. This would then be followed by a two week recovery cycle using more moderate weights and focusing on squeezing the muscle, similar to TUT theories.
Sets should max out at 8-10 for major body parts and 6-8 for minor body parts.
This may be a drastic drop in volume for many people but the limiting factor in many peoples progress is usually a combination of overtraining and inadequete or poorly designed nutrition.
The mass phase allows for maximal weight to be pushed and to really overload the muscle. The recovery phase allows the body, especially the joints to recover in prepration for the next mass 'cycle'.
For maximal results from this training style your nutritional plan should follow a calorie overload in the mass cycle followed by a maintenance amount for the recovery phase.

RUHL
02-17-2009, 10:20 AM
Can you post your training schedule please. I'm curious about this P/RR/S method.
Me 2 post it:)

MichaelWayne
02-17-2009, 10:24 AM
SAMPLE OUTLINE

Back
POWER: week 1

- Rack deadlift...3 x 3-6
- Bent row...3 x 4-6
- Weighted chin...2-3 x 4-6
- CG seated row...2-3 x 4-6

REP RANGE: week 2

- CG weighted chin...2 x 6-8
- WG T-Bar row...2 x 8-10
- Dumbell row...2 x 10-12
- Pullover...2 x 12-15

SHOCK: week 3

- Pullover/WG pulldown superset...1-2 x 8-10 each
- Stiff arm pulldown/reverse grip bent row...1-2 x 8-10 each
- CG seated pully row dropset...1 x 6-8, drop, 6-8, drop, 6-8

Biceps/Triceps

POWER: week 1

- Barbell curl...2 x 4-6
- Preacher curl...2 x 4-6
- Hammer curl...1-2 x 4-6
- CG bench press...3 x 4-6
- Skull crush...2 x 4-6
- Single arm dumbell extension...1-2 x 4-6

REP RANGE: week 2

- Alternating dumbell curl...2 x 6-8
- Cable curl...2 x 8-10
- Concentration curl...1-2 x 10-12
- Weighted dip...3 x 6-8
- Pushdown...2 x 8-10
- Kickback...1-2 x 10-12

SHOCK: week 3

- EZ bar curl/CG chin superset...1 x 6-10 each
- Preacher curl/reverse curl superset...1 x 6-10 each
- Dropset cable single arm curl...1 x 6-10, drop 6-10
- Pushdown/CG bench press superset...1-2 x 6-10 each
- Reverse grip pushdown/incline overhead extension superset...1-2 x 6-10 each
- Dropset weighted bench dip...1 x 8-10, drop 8-10

Chest

POWER: week 1

- Dumbell bench press...3 x 4-6
- Incline press...3 x 4-6
- Weighted dips...2 x 4-6

REP RANGE: week 2

- Incline dumbell press...3 x 6-8
- Bench press...3 x 8-10
- Flye...2 x 10-12

SHOCK: week 3

- Superset...cable crossover/incline smith press...1-2 x 8-10 reps each
- Superset...incline flye/dips...1 x 8-10 reps each
- Dropset...machine bench press...1 x 8-10, drop 6-8, drop 6-8 optional

Deltoids

POWER: week 1

- Military press...2-3 x 4-6
- Upright row...2-3 x 4-6
- "Cheat" lateral...2 x 4-6

REP RANGE: week 2

- Single arm dumbell press...2 x 6-8
- Bent lateral...2-3 x 8-10
- Cable side lateral...2 x 10-12

SHOCK: week 3

- Seated side lateral/hammer machine press superset...1-2 x 8-10
- Severse pec deck/WG upright row superset...1-2 x 8-10
- Cable front raise dropset...1 x 6-8, drop 6-8, drop 6-8 optional

Legs

POWER: week 1

- Squats...3 x 4-6
- Leg press...3 x 4-6
- Single leg extension...2 x 4-6
- Lying leg curl...3 x 4-6
- Stiff deadlift...2-3 x 4-6

REP RANGE: week 2

- Leg extension...2 x 8-10
- Hack squat...3 x 10-12
- One legged leg press...3 x 12-15
- Lying leg curl...2 x 6-8
- Stiff deadlift...2 x 8-10
- Single leg curl or seated leg curl...1-2 x 10-12

SHOCK: week 3

- Superset: leg extension/front squat...1-2 x 8-10 each
- Superset: leg extension/sissy squat or leg press...1-2 x 8-10 each
- Dropset: lunge...1 x 8-10, drop, 8-10
- Superset: leg curl seated or lying/toes pointed hyperextension...1-2 x 8-10 each
- Dropset: single leg curl...1-2 x 8-10, drop, 8-10

The only note is that once you run through PRRS a few times you should advance RR week to the following ranges: 7-9, 10-12, 13-15, 16-20 (for larger bodyparts).

MichaelWayne
02-17-2009, 10:26 AM
Four Day Split w/ weekends off

M - Back/Traps
T - Chest/Bi's
W - off day
TH- Legs
F - Delts/Tri's

Wheels
02-17-2009, 02:33 PM
Thanks MichaelWayne, I had forgotten I posted in this thread.

As a Natty, I train weights every other day; cardio on off days. I find this really helps to expedite recovery and keep me from plateauing.

The science behind the routine is quite solid. You are covering a wide array of TUT times, coupled with nullifying all three fiber types. Your body is never allowed to acclimate and become resistant to progress because you are training differently every week or however you have it split up. You are growing stronger with Power Week, then utilizing the strength you've acquired to facilitate the growth in RR week. Shock week is designed to increase natural GH/Test levels as well as just shocking the hell out of your body.

As long as you have a decent base built up then this routine can work nicely for you. I've been lifting, consistently, for 9 months and have only been doing Power/RR for the past 6 weeks. I'm just off a week deload and will be incorporating shock.

Eric has his own site, he had a great thread somewhere. One of the few things I'll miss. Maybe he'll see the light and defect ;).

ElSpiko
02-18-2009, 03:18 PM
I change routine every 6-12 weeks, depending on how I'm progressing. Over the years I've developed a few favorites (a five day charles glass split, Arnold's pre-contest routine, a modified dave draper 3-day split) that i frequently come back to, but my pplateaus mainly have to do with how my nutrition is doing at the time moreso than my training.

greuceanu
02-18-2009, 03:23 PM
SAMPLE OUTLINE

Back
POWER: week 1

- Rack deadlift...3 x 3-6
- Bent row...3 x 4-6
- Weighted chin...2-3 x 4-6
- CG seated row...2-3 x 4-6

REP RANGE: week 2

- CG weighted chin...2 x 6-8
- WG T-Bar row...2 x 8-10
- Dumbell row...2 x 10-12
- Pullover...2 x 12-15

SHOCK: week 3

- Pullover/WG pulldown superset...1-2 x 8-10 each
- Stiff arm pulldown/reverse grip bent row...1-2 x 8-10 each
- CG seated pully row dropset...1 x 6-8, drop, 6-8, drop, 6-8

Biceps/Triceps

POWER: week 1

- Barbell curl...2 x 4-6
- Preacher curl...2 x 4-6
- Hammer curl...1-2 x 4-6
- CG bench press...3 x 4-6
- Skull crush...2 x 4-6
- Single arm dumbell extension...1-2 x 4-6

REP RANGE: week 2

- Alternating dumbell curl...2 x 6-8
- Cable curl...2 x 8-10
- Concentration curl...1-2 x 10-12
- Weighted dip...3 x 6-8
- Pushdown...2 x 8-10
- Kickback...1-2 x 10-12

SHOCK: week 3

- EZ bar curl/CG chin superset...1 x 6-10 each
- Preacher curl/reverse curl superset...1 x 6-10 each
- Dropset cable single arm curl...1 x 6-10, drop 6-10
- Pushdown/CG bench press superset...1-2 x 6-10 each
- Reverse grip pushdown/incline overhead extension superset...1-2 x 6-10 each
- Dropset weighted bench dip...1 x 8-10, drop 8-10

Chest

POWER: week 1

- Dumbell bench press...3 x 4-6
- Incline press...3 x 4-6
- Weighted dips...2 x 4-6

REP RANGE: week 2

- Incline dumbell press...3 x 6-8
- Bench press...3 x 8-10
- Flye...2 x 10-12

SHOCK: week 3

- Superset...cable crossover/incline smith press...1-2 x 8-10 reps each
- Superset...incline flye/dips...1 x 8-10 reps each
- Dropset...machine bench press...1 x 8-10, drop 6-8, drop 6-8 optional

Deltoids

POWER: week 1

- Military press...2-3 x 4-6
- Upright row...2-3 x 4-6
- "Cheat" lateral...2 x 4-6

REP RANGE: week 2

- Single arm dumbell press...2 x 6-8
- Bent lateral...2-3 x 8-10
- Cable side lateral...2 x 10-12

SHOCK: week 3

- Seated side lateral/hammer machine press superset...1-2 x 8-10
- Severse pec deck/WG upright row superset...1-2 x 8-10
- Cable front raise dropset...1 x 6-8, drop 6-8, drop 6-8 optional

Legs

POWER: week 1

- Squats...3 x 4-6
- Leg press...3 x 4-6
- Single leg extension...2 x 4-6
- Lying leg curl...3 x 4-6
- Stiff deadlift...2-3 x 4-6

REP RANGE: week 2

- Leg extension...2 x 8-10
- Hack squat...3 x 10-12
- One legged leg press...3 x 12-15
- Lying leg curl...2 x 6-8
- Stiff deadlift...2 x 8-10
- Single leg curl or seated leg curl...1-2 x 10-12

SHOCK: week 3

- Superset: leg extension/front squat...1-2 x 8-10 each
- Superset: leg extension/sissy squat or leg press...1-2 x 8-10 each
- Dropset: lunge...1 x 8-10, drop, 8-10
- Superset: leg curl seated or lying/toes pointed hyperextension...1-2 x 8-10 each
- Dropset: single leg curl...1-2 x 8-10, drop, 8-10

The only note is that once you run through PRRS a few times you should advance RR week to the following ranges: 7-9, 10-12, 13-15, 16-20 (for larger bodyparts).

That's just good ole' periodization,flushed around and with 1 week cycles instead of 4-6 weeks.

MichaelWayne
02-18-2009, 03:58 PM
That's just good ole' periodization,flushed around and with 1 week cycles instead of 4-6 weeks.

True. Just another name so Broser can make some money off it. You know, THE AMERICAN WAY! lol

greuceanu
02-18-2009, 04:04 PM
True. Just another name so Broser can make some money off it. You know, THE AMERICAN WAY! lol

Oh,that's a Broser concoction? ROFL, not surprised then.

MichaelWayne
02-18-2009, 04:10 PM
Oh,that's a Broser concoction? ROFL, not surprised then.

You know, he is all natural and people say his chest looks like Arnolds...oh excuse me....I threw up in my mouth a little.

greuceanu
02-18-2009, 04:19 PM
You know, he is all natural and people say his chest looks like Arnolds...oh excuse me....I threw up in my mouth a little.

Saw some photos of him. My opinion is that he was clearly not natural in the water retention black/white photos, but was natural in later photos.

That's because i do think you can be juiced at one point,then natural after a couple of years of not using. Many would disagree though.

Then again,he was an ALRI rep and those guys spiked their products.He might have taken juice without knowing? I generally don't like the guy and his manservant Hossjob, but i try to be fair and give benefit of the doubt.

GrayBull
02-18-2009, 05:54 PM
Saw some photos of him. My opinion is that he was clearly not natural in the water retention black/white photos, but was natural in later photos.

That's because i do think you can be juiced at one point,then natural after a couple of years of not using. Many would disagree though.

Then again,he was an ALRI rep and those guys spiked their products.He might have taken juice without knowing? I generally don't like the guy and his manservant Hossjob, but i try to be fair and give benefit of the doubt.

Haha. Ouch.

Wheels
02-19-2009, 02:47 PM
That's just good ole' periodization,flushed around and with 1 week cycles instead of 4-6 weeks.

True, it certainly has some periodization elements to it, although just about every training routine out there has elements pulled from other routines. Dante Trudel's DC training is just a modified version of HIT with some RPing and static stretches thrown in. Hany Rambod's FST-7 is a modified version of the pump sets they used to do way back in the day; still solid, though. Well, you see where I'm going. There are only so many ways to train, and as time progresses you'll see more and more a collaboration of ideas from multiple routines.

Wheels
02-19-2009, 02:49 PM
Saw some photos of him. My opinion is that he was clearly not natural in the water retention black/white photos, but was natural in later photos.

That's because i do think you can be juiced at one point,then natural after a couple of years of not using. Many would disagree though.

Then again,he was an ALRI rep and those guys spiked their products.He might have taken juice without knowing? I generally don't like the guy and his manservant Hossjob, but i try to be fair and give benefit of the doubt.

Yeah, imo, if you've EVER juiced then you should never be allowed to claim natural status. I've read studies citing the added benefits past juicers still experience after they've long been off.

greuceanu
02-19-2009, 04:04 PM
There are only so many ways to train, and as time progresses you'll see more and more a collaboration of ideas from multiple routines.

Yeah,people need to make money somehow.


Yeah, imo, if you've EVER juiced then you should never be allowed to claim natural status. I've read studies citing the added benefits past juicers still experience after they've long been off.

Well, Strikerrjones provided an interesting study.Would be helpful if you posted those studies so we can see what added benefits there are.

TheSpirit
02-19-2009, 04:50 PM
5 day power hypertrophy split pre-contest. 4 day split this "offseason"

.DP
02-20-2009, 06:47 AM
I've been using a 5-on 2-off routine for a couple weeks now and it's going great.

I was always doing the 12-10-8-6 pyramid rep scheme but just changed it to 20-12-8-6-20 and the change has been dramatic. Also started doing more supersets on shoulders and arms, and trying not to rest too long.

Workouts are typically around 45 minutes, no longer than an hour including stretching.

Wheels
02-20-2009, 02:42 PM
Well, Strikerrjones provided an interesting study.Would be helpful if you posted those studies so we can see what added benefits there are.

I did some digging and it seems the study was too small to be considered as factual evidence. What the study did do is take muscle biopsies of a set of athletes who were juicing, a set of athletes who had juiced in the past, and a set of athletes who never juiced. The biopsies indicated that the set of athletes who juiced in the past and those whom were currently on cycle showed distinct similarities. Similarities including larger muscle fibers and more growth-inducing "myonuclei" in their muscle cells than the nonsteroid users.

The more I read the article the more bunk I think it is. I usually delve pretty deep into the information I post about, guess I slacked on this article. I'd be very interested to read the article provided by Strikerrjones.

greuceanu
02-20-2009, 04:41 PM
Check thread 'Natural Status?'

I think it may be the same study you're talking about though.

meatheadio
02-22-2009, 04:35 PM
I agree, low volume works better for many naturals. Train like a pro, look like a pro? Not a chance. Besides the enormous amounts of gear these guys are using they are also genetically gifted and have amazing recuperative ability.
Every single one of my clients who I have changed from high volume training to low-moderate volume with higher intensity has made fantastic progress. All this without changing a single aspect of their nutrition.

Strikerrjones
02-22-2009, 04:57 PM
I did some digging and it seems the study was too small to be considered as factual evidence. What the study did do is take muscle biopsies of a set of athletes who were juicing, a set of athletes who had juiced in the past, and a set of athletes who never juiced. The biopsies indicated that the set of athletes who juiced in the past and those whom were currently on cycle showed distinct similarities. Similarities including larger muscle fibers and more growth-inducing "myonuclei" in their muscle cells than the nonsteroid users.

The more I read the article the more bunk I think it is. I usually delve pretty deep into the information I post about, guess I slacked on this article. I'd be very interested to read the article provided by Strikerrjones.

It sounds like we might be talking about the same study. I got mine out of the February issue of Muscular Development and didn't do any extra research on it. I posted most of the MD article in the thread Natural Status if you want to look at it.

Por2gue
02-28-2009, 01:22 AM
2 day DC split.

thepump
03-21-2009, 05:51 AM
I find that heavy 8-10 reps with solid form really focusing on squeezing and slow negatives has worked the best for me

Same for me. When I was young and natural was my way. But its all really getting to know your own body. Keep up the great work everyone. Natural is truly a harder way to rise.

ironman0370
03-21-2009, 08:28 AM
I've been both.

The methods that honestly worked for me best were a combination of Vince Gironda's training methods along with MAX-OT or Dorian Yate's HIT type of methods, going back and forth with various "rest weeks" in between. I had tried many methods before, most of which has been mentioned here in some fashion, and even the two methods individually.

Nothing worked for me nearly as well as that combination.

I have every single course Vince ever wrote (cost me a shitload of money, but well worth it), and I still have access to the online MAX-OT if anyone is interested and doesn't have the time.

Just my .02

62"diesel
03-23-2009, 01:05 AM
rotate around 3 days,

chest and back

flat dumbell 5 sets 5 reps
incline bench 5 sets 10 reps
pec dec 5 sets 15 reps
pull up till i reach 50-75
high rows 4 sets 5-8 reps
reverse grip bb rows 4 sets 8-10 reps
wide grip lat pulldown 3 sets 8-12
reverse pec dec 2 sets 15 reps

shoulders and arms
smith military press 5 sets 5 reps
upright row 5 sets 10 reps
seated side laterals 5 sets 15 reps
barebell curl (superset) overhead dumbell ext 5 sets of 8 reps
dumbell curl (superset) dips 5 sets 5-8 reps
cable rope ext dropset 2 dropsets of 3 with 8 reps per drop
single arm cable curl 2 sets till it burns and you u half to shake the lactic acid out

LEgs
Squat 4 sets 5-10 reps
front squats 4 sets 8-12 reps
hack squat 2 sets 15 reps
single legged press 2 sets 15 reps
leg extension (superset) strait leg deadlift 2 sets 15-12 reps

and i just cycle this sum weeks i have to take a day off after each session sometimes ile do 6 in a row, i mite not always finish workout due to work time retraints or just dead, typically last 50min -1.5 hour, and ile change exercises or rep range ocassionally, i like it just cause i hit every rep range and i get bulldozed over, our bodies all respond differently so thats why i just do 3 days, and take off when i need to

AlonePowers
04-03-2009, 05:02 PM
FST-7 for lagging bodyparts

"Rodz"
05-26-2009, 02:42 AM
Off topic, but what do u think about those adjustable dumbells u have?

AVBG
05-26-2009, 04:14 AM
Off topic, but what do u think about those adjustable dumbells u have?

The only drawback is that there aint any extension packs to make them heavier they go to 45lbs.. besides that they're unreal.. the strong points are ..quick change, space saving and well balanced..