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View Full Version : Nolvadex or Arimidex?



SallyAnne
04-15-2009, 06:44 PM
I have heard of women using one or the other as a anti-e for contest prep. Which is better?

PJ BRAUN
04-15-2009, 06:58 PM
That depends on how much you like being a women. One is far stronger and works from a much different perspective!

SallyAnne
04-15-2009, 06:58 PM
Explain, please. ;)

Sistersteel
04-15-2009, 07:18 PM
I have heard of women using one or the other as a anti-e for contest prep. Which is better?


Ms SallyAnne
Adex is not an anti E. It is an aromataze inhibitor. AIs decrease estrogen production in the body and prevent aromatization if you are running an aromatizing AAS. Nolvadex does not affect the body's natural estrogen production. It simply keeps it from binding to the receptors.

SallyAnne
04-15-2009, 08:02 PM
In 2007, my trainer had me on Adex. Dave Palumbo told me to switch to Nolva because Adex was useless. I switched and was happy with the results. Is Adex an option for ladies? I guess I need to understand how they work better so that I can ask more intelligent questions. lol

Could you give me a 101 course on anti E's and aromataze inhibitors?

SallyAnne
04-15-2009, 08:03 PM
I received an anonymous message about adex and nolva:


Nolvadex binds to existing estrogen and prevents it from binding with receptors. Its mild, but it really does the trick and its virtualy side effect free because you are still producing estrogen.

Arimidex on the other hand, shuts the bodies production of estrogen down completely, so you are simply left with an androgen based system. Not good for women because this is when strong virilization symptoms and masculine side effects kick in.

Arimidex is better for a male athlete who is consuming such a high level of androgens athat some have to convert into estrogen.

NubianBeauty
04-15-2009, 08:09 PM
Ms SallyAnne
Adex is not an anti E. It is an aromataze inhibitor. AIs decrease estrogen production in the body and prevent aromatization if you are running an aromatizing AAS. Nolvadex does not affect the body's natural estrogen production. It simply keeps it from binding to the receptors.Ditto! AI= Arimidex, Femara, Aromasin is also an aromatase inactivator (all name brands... not actual chem name) SERMS=Nolvadex, Evista. I prefer a combo of dex and nolva.

NubianBeauty
04-15-2009, 08:11 PM
Sally I disagree with that explanation.

SallyAnne
04-15-2009, 08:13 PM
OK - explain why.

sassy69
04-15-2009, 08:33 PM
In women, you have to look at the sources of estrogen production. The primary one is the ovaries, with secondary coming from androgens produced by the adrenals, which convert to estrogen. A 3rd source could be aromatizing AAS like Test Prop, deca, etc.

In the body, an AI like arimidex is used to operate on androgens that convert (aromatize) to estrogen. So places this would happen naturally would be the adrenals and artificially from injected androgens (e.g. AAS).

So that's why guys would use Adex for any steroid that aromatizes to reduce the amount of resulting estrogen. But we also note that too much AI and their muscle growth is limited a bit because some estrogen is still needed to grow. For women, Adex would be useful if they are on an aromatizing steroid, or are post-menopausal when the predominant source of estrogen is that converted from adrenal-created androgens.

This is also supported by the breast cancer research that recommends Nolvadex as the protocol for pre-menopausal women and adex for post-menopausal. And for pre-menopausal women using Nolvadex, to switch over to Adex after 2 yrs on Nolva. The implied assumption is that after 2 yrs on Nolva, you've been pushed into early menopause and can now be treated like a post-menoapausal patient.

NubianBeauty
04-15-2009, 10:00 PM
OK - explain why. Was getting to it ;) Had a phone call... a booty call! :D Leaving in a few.

Again SERMs (Selective estrogen receptor modulator) selectively inhibit or stimulate estrogen-like action in the body... most are either an agonist or antagonist but Nolva is both. It is active (agonist) in the bone, muscle, liver, uterus (yes can cause cancer), ovaries . It blocks E to the breast (it's intended purpose) by binding to the receptor w/o activating it.

Arimidex does not block E production in women because it does not have ANY effect on the ovaries. It is an inhibitor which prevents aromatization of androgens to E.... so stops the conversion when women are on AAS (Test) and in women who are post-meno since androgens (produce by adrenal glands) convert to E.

The reason I prefer to use both is because the sides kind of counterbalance any negative effects while still yielding the benefits.

Sistersteel
04-15-2009, 11:24 PM
Great posts by sass and my girl NB. Right on ladies.

For the record. I do not run any aromatizing compounds anymore, I keep my prolactin in check with dostinex, I stick to progesterone based androgens that do not aromatize ...I'll throw in an adex/nolva combo to the mix with an oral and that is all I need to look better than I ever have in my life. Simple stupid.

SallyAnne
04-16-2009, 12:10 AM
What dosage would you recommend? Does it depend on the cycle?


....and how long is a safe amount of time to run them?

Sistersteel
04-16-2009, 01:17 AM
What dosage would you recommend? Does it depend on the cycle?


....and how long is a safe amount of time to run them?

SallyAnne
See the thing about dosages is they will vary significantly from one person to the next. Its not so much the dosages of the drugs as much as it is the synergistic effect achieved through the right combination. How you combine your drugs is far more important than how high you run them.

However, If you think about it, In any cycle, the dosages women use are entirely dependent on how much a woman is willing to put up with in terms of sides. "Safety" is placed on the back burner once we start stacking androgen upon androgen, especially if there is no rhyme or reason to the cocktail.

Typically, short estered compounds produce results in 8-10 weeks, whereas long esters produce results in 14-16 weeks. When you stack compounds, short esters are the way to go in case you need to bail on a cycle for whatever reason. And as you know, you should take as much time off as you've spent on..yada yada yada.

But how many of us really follow that protocol? Very few women will admit to the truth but, honesty is one of my biggest virtues, and if we are to support each other, we cannot be holding back answers for selfish reasons. Dishonest advice is a big reason there are fifty million opinions out there pertaining to women and not a single reliable source I would ever bet my health upon.

So the truth is that personally, I do not come off completely, ever. I run a bridge or a maintenance compound depending on what I am prepping for throughout the course of a season. Remember, I am not a competitive bodybuilder, so I do not have an "in" or an "offseason" persay the way most of you ladies do. I am always in season. I compete on 2 different circuits, train fulltime and make a living off the way I look.

I will run bloodwork regularly and so far, besides the increased hair growth and irregular periods, I am healthy as a horse. But, I am also aware of the fact that I cannot do this forever. I have plans of retiring from the industry in a few years and a carreer change plan is already in effect.

I will cycle certain compounds off and on. Receptors get saturated so time off is needed to clear them out or you are just spinning your wheels. I am actually very happy with the way I've been doing things. I love the way I look, I am strong as an ox, I have not been sick, had a fever or the flu in years. Everyone around me could be bedridden and I am right as rain. The only problem I have is bad tendonitis, which besides being a pain in the ass, is very manageable.

Just hope my honesty benefits my sisters.

SS

tammyp
04-16-2009, 08:11 AM
anyone price arimidex? holy smokes!

SallyAnne
04-16-2009, 10:18 AM
SallyAnne
See the thing about dosages is they will vary significantly from one person to the next. Its not so much the dosges of the drugs as much as it is the synegystic effect achieved through the right combination. How you combine your drugs is far more important that how high you run them.

However, If you think about it, In any cycle, the dosages women use are entirely dependent on how much a woman is willing to put up with in terms of sides. "Safety" is placed on the back burner once we start stacking androgen upon androgen, especially if there is no rhyme or reason to the cocktail.

Typically, short estered compounds produce results in 8-10 weeks, whereas long esters produce results in 14-16 weeks. When you stack compounds, short esters are the way to go in case you need to bail on a cycle for whatever reason. And as you know, you should take as much time off as you've spent on..yada yada yada.

But how many of us really follow that protol? Very few women will admit to the truth but, honesty is one of my biggest virtues, and if we are to support each other, we cannot be holding back answers for slefish reasons. Dishonest advice is a big reason there are fifty million opinions out there pertaining to women and not a single reliable source I would ever bet my health upon.

So the truth is that personally, I do not come off completely, ever. I run a bridge or a maintenance compound depending on what I am prepping for throughout the course of a season. Remember, I am not a competitive bodybuilder, so I do not have an "in" or an "offseason" persay the way most of you ladies do. I am always in season. I compete on 2 different circuits, train fulltime and make a living off the way I look.

I will run bloodwork regularly and so far, besides the increased hair growth and irregular periods, I am healthy as an horse. But, I am also aware of the fact that I cannot do this forever. I have plans of retiring from the industry in a few years and a carreer change plan is already in effect.

I will cycle certain compounds off and on. Receptors get saturated so time off is needed to clear them out or you are just spinning your wheels. I am actually very happy with the way I've been doing things. I love the way I look, I am strong as an ox, I have not been sick, had a fever or the flu in years. Everyone around me could be bedridden and I am right as rain. The only problem I have is bad tendonitis, which besides being a pain in the ass, is very manageable.

Just hope my honesty benefits my sisters.

SS

You are not the only woman who 'bridges'. I have talked to many online who do the same. I only started using AAS in 2006 and at conservative doses. After prep was over in 2007, I took a break from everything just because I felt tired of it all, to be honest. What I found interesting is that I actually felt my body "right" itself after a couple of months. It's hard to explain what that means, but I am very in tune with my body (as we all should be when running AAS) and saw the little changes in things like how my skin & hair felt, the rate at which my hair grew, my period coming back, etc. It further helped me understand the differences in my body between "on" and "off".

Allifit
04-16-2009, 01:11 PM
Interesting stuff- I'm eating lunch and just poked my head in here. :) I've never used either- but I was wondering about the potential side affects of both? What about rebounding- what can women expect to see and feel in their bodies coming off these two drugs?

~gymdiva~
04-16-2009, 01:13 PM
I've always done well on nolva but oh my dear lord I rebounded like a mofo on arimidex when I used it with my first show...to quote Melissa D, it made me blow up, "like opening a can of bisuits!"

Allifit
04-16-2009, 01:35 PM
I've always done well on nolva but oh my dear lord I rebounded like a mofo on arimidex when I used it with my first show...to quote Melissa D, it made me blow up, "like opening a can of bisuits!"

Water retention or what?

Sistersteel
04-16-2009, 01:36 PM
You are not the only woman who 'bridges'. I have talked to many online who do the same. I only started using AAS in 2006 and at conservative doses. After prep was over in 2007, I took a break from everything just because I felt tired of it all, to be honest. What I found interesting is that I actually felt my body "right" itself after a couple of months. It's hard to explain what that means, but I am very in tune with my body (as we all should be when running AAS) and saw the little changes in things like how my skin & hair felt, the rate at which my hair grew, my period coming back, etc. It further helped me understand the differences in my body between "on" and "off".


The body will always normalize and bounce back after a little while. Even men who shut themselves down by running androgens with no test bounce back eventually. The adjustment period can be psychologically taxing, so running PCT ensures that things normalize quicker making it a smoother transition. But that is the beauty of the human body. Cells regenerate and everything will fix itself eventually.

Stavman
04-16-2009, 01:38 PM
anyone price arimidex? holy smokes!

You are getting it from the wrong guys then.

Sistersteel
04-16-2009, 01:43 PM
I would not mess with any liquid shit. Liquid Adex and LiquiNol I would stay away from because the drug is never evenly suspended within the liquid.

~gymdiva~
04-16-2009, 01:45 PM
Water retention or what?


definitely that and just my body being all kinds of confused trying to level out...I don't typically get that on nolva when I taper off after a show...

tammyp
04-16-2009, 05:04 PM
i think as long as you taper it your fine. stopping it cold turkey i have heard is where the rebounding can occur.

Allifit
04-16-2009, 05:11 PM
i think as long as you taper it your fine. stopping it cold turkey i have heard is where the rebounding can occur.
By taper do you mean reducing the dosage and/or frequency of use? How long does your "taper" usually last?

Dr Pangloss
04-16-2009, 05:43 PM
In women, you have to look at the sources of estrogen production. The primary one is the ovaries, with secondary coming from androgens produced by the adrenals, which convert to estrogen. A 3rd source could be aromatizing AAS like Test Prop, deca, etc.

In the body, an AI like arimidex is used to operate on androgens that convert (aromatize) to estrogen. So places this would happen naturally would be the adrenals and artificially from injected androgens (e.g. AAS).

So that's why guys would use Adex for any steroid that aromatizes to reduce the amount of resulting estrogen. But we also note that too much AI and their muscle growth is limited a bit because some estrogen is still needed to grow. For women, Adex would be useful if they are on an aromatizing steroid, or are post-menopausal when the predominant source of estrogen is that converted from adrenal-created androgens.

This is also supported by the breast cancer research that recommends Nolvadex as the protocol for pre-menopausal women and adex for post-menopausal. And for pre-menopausal women using Nolvadex, to switch over to Adex after 2 yrs on Nolva. The implied assumption is that after 2 yrs on Nolva, you've been pushed into early menopause and can now be treated like a post-menoapausal patient.

also too much AI and you can get some bone resorbtion. Tamoxifen is what is called a "partial agonist," meaning it does bind and activate estrogen receptors a little bit, just much less than estrogen.

With tamoxifen you dont get the problems with bone resorbtion/bone loss.

Sistersteel
04-16-2009, 10:31 PM
also too much AI and you can get some bone resorbtion. Tamoxifen is what is called a "partial agonist," meaning it does bind and activate estrogen receptors a little bit, just much less than estrogen.

With tamoxifen you dont get the problems with bone resorbtion/bone loss.

Long term AI usage in certain genetically predisposed women speeds up the onset of osteoporosis.

Judge
04-20-2009, 06:20 PM
SallyAnne

I will run bloodwork regularly and so far, besides the increased hair growth and irregular periods, I am healthy as a horse.

SS

SS I like your attitude, I want to ask you about this certain thing, you mentioned that you do regularly blood tests and they come ok, are the numbers within the normal range or a lil bit higher?

Tatyana
04-22-2009, 03:52 PM
This is what the British National Formulary says about these drugs:

Arimidex/Anastrozole

Cautions: not for pre-menopausal women/not for women with susceptibility to osteoporosis

Contra-indications: moderate or severe hepatic (liver) disease; moderate or severe renal (kidney) disease

Side effects: hot flushes, vaginal dryness, vaginal bleeding, hair thinning, anorexia, nausea, vomiting, diarrhoea, headache, arthralgia (joint pain), bone fractures, rash, asthenia (physical weakness and loss of strength), drowsiness, slight increases in total cholesterol, very rarely allergic reactions including angioedema (swelling of skin) and anaphylaxis (closing of throat/severe allergy)

Dose: 1 mg daily

It is expensive, the NHS pays £ 68.56 for a one month supply.

Nolvadex/Tamoxifen

This is prescribed to pre-menopausal women

Cautions: occasional cycstic ovarian swelling, endometrial (lining of the uterus) changes, porphyrias (problems with manufacturing haemoglobin)

Contra indications: pregnancy and advise non-hormonal birth control pills

Side effects: hot flushes, vaginal bleeding and vaginal discharge, suppression of menstruation in some pre-menopausal women, pruitus vulvae (some yucky skin disorder that itches), gastrointestinal disturbances (upset stomach and gas?), headache, light-headedness, tumour flare, decreased platelet counts, occasionally oedema (water retention), alopecia (hair loss), uterine fibroids, visual disturbances including corneal changes, cataracts, retinopathy, leucopenia (fewer white cells which fight infection) sometimes with anaemia and thrombocytopenia (fewer red blood cells and platelets), hypertriglyceraemia (higher levels of trig in blood), thromboembolitic events reported (throwing a blood clot), liver enzyme changes

Dose: breast cancer 20 mg daily

anovulartory infertility: 20 mg daily on day 2, 3, 4, and 5 of cycle

A 20 mg tablet packet with 30 tabs = £ 1.66

Astra Zenica Nolvadex-D 20 mg 30 tab pack = £ 8.71