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Daniel
07-07-2012, 03:19 AM
Just was wondering how these guys cycles looks like as far as dosages/duration/compounds etc. Some of them look pretty good and somewhat big (Jaco De Bruyn for example).

124922

Bryan Hildebrand
07-07-2012, 11:40 AM
i'm interested in hearing what and what doses MP guys feel is neccessary to bring the right amount of size and symmetry to the stage. I'm not so much interested in hearing what you used to run when trained for bodybuilding, but what you feel is neccessary for the new revolution of mens stage presence.

bluetwistedsteel
07-09-2012, 12:13 PM
First, the guy in the photo would not do well in MPD - at least not the shows I've been to. He's built great but a bit overdone for mens physique. As for doses and compounds, I'd say lower on the highly andorgenic stuff and higher of the stuff like anavar and masteron and winny. Definitely less (if taken at all) Hgh. Dose is hard to say but I don't think there are a lot of MPD competitors taking 3+ grams of gear per week. Maybe close to a gram total. If a MPD guy said he was taking 150g of test prop every other day along with 50mg of var or winny every day, I'd think he was on the right track.

ushock
08-04-2012, 03:03 PM
It's going to depend a lot on the individual's starting point. A lot of guys already into bodybuilding and other 'big guy' sports will already have enough size, or too much, as opposed to guys new to lifting in general who will need to put on muscle, lose fat, or both.

calpoly
08-05-2012, 02:04 PM
My guess is a lot of primo, var, mast is tossed around

CDJack
08-06-2012, 04:11 PM
Like all other guess what they're taking threads, this is stupid and pointless. I am sure it runs the gamut...some guys may be taking nothing (especially those who were much bigger before) and some are taking the exact same drugs as bodybuilders, including tren. Maybe the doses are lower, maybe not. No one really knows. I am sure there's someone running 2 or even 3 grams of gear a week, although that's obviously silly for someone this size...

juiceinator3000
08-06-2012, 04:24 PM
Itd be cool if one of these guys who actually compete and do well in physique would take their fucking tampon out and just let some of these guys know. Even if it was with an anonymous ip and name.

CDJack
08-06-2012, 10:28 PM
Itd be cool if one of these guys who actually compete and do well in physique would take their fucking tampon out and just let some of these guys know. Even if it was with an anonymous ip and name.

It wouldn't matter man...you think they all take the same thing? I can guarantee there are a few guys who are natural and a few who use nearly as much as national level bodybuilders, and many guys in the middle.

juiceinator3000
08-06-2012, 10:39 PM
It wouldn't matter man...you think they all take the same thing? I can guarantee there are a few guys who are natural and a few who use nearly as much as national level bodybuilders, and many guys in the middle.
A pro/top amateur who is honest would be better than nothing. Natural.. Yea there's probably a few but not many.

Big Baldwin
08-07-2012, 12:29 AM
My good friend Kristian got 8th at the USAs and is a lifetime natty, although I imagine most are using at least basic shit

CDJack
08-07-2012, 01:17 AM
A pro/top amateur who is honest would be better than nothing. Natural.. Yea there's probably a few but not many.

Test, Tren, Anavar. Around 300-400 test, 200 tren, 50mg var ED. That's an example, but hardly representative.

Aaron Singerman
08-07-2012, 04:12 AM
Just was wondering how these guys cycles looks like as far as dosages/duration/compounds etc. Some of them looks pretty good and somewhat big ( Jaco De Bruyn for example)

124922

He would place poorly. Too much muscle by TONS.

Guys are taking test and tren. Not a lot of either. Many are using hgh, clen, t3, and arimidex. Almost all use a diuretic.

juiceinator3000
08-07-2012, 07:58 AM
Test, Tren, Anavar. Around 300-400 test, 200 tren, 50mg var ED. That's an example, but hardly representative.
Makes sense. See at least someone came out with some real gear and numbers.

joe d
08-07-2012, 11:08 AM
im guessing that many of them dont use aas at all. some sups, eca, stuff like that but no aas. the size and condition of these guys is pretty easy for a young lifter to get. how good it looks on you and your stage presence is another thing but thats not about drugs.

for the older guys. i bet many of them are on nothing but a higher hrt dose then the same as above.

CDJack
08-07-2012, 11:18 AM
Keep in mind also that the size of these guys varies significantly. The example I gave was not me, but it was real. The drugs are used more for keeping size when dieting than for putting on size. I know for a fact that more than 50% of guys at the national and pro level are using something.

Provo82
08-07-2012, 11:55 AM
i dont think drugs should really be needed to compete in this division but obviously they are used because our society loves drugs.

CDJack
08-07-2012, 01:12 PM
i dont think drugs should really be needed to compete in this division but obviously they are used because our society loves drugs.

Most people I talk to adamantly claim that the majority of national and pro bikini competitors use anavar, T3, clen, and maybe even nolva and GH. They say they have been told directly by girls and/or their coaches. If that's true, does it really surprise you that men would be using?

juiceinator3000
08-07-2012, 02:29 PM
Most people I talk to adamantly claim that the majority of national and pro bikini competitors use anavar, T3, clen, and maybe even nolva and GH. They say they have been told directly by girls and/or their coaches. If that's true, does it really surprise you that men would be using?
Speaking for him here nowhere did he say that he was/would be surprised someone's taking shit. More that these physiques can be achieved naturally but people are taking gear just because that's what our society loves.

joe d
08-07-2012, 06:22 PM
our society is also full of people working hard as naturals because its really all about health first for them. there are a lot more of these people in our world than there are juicers.

ianlauer
08-07-2012, 06:34 PM
If you use illegal substances to compete...men's physique is not for you. The way i see it MP is about building a great body NATURALLY. If you can't do that then you shouldn't compete or you should take it to another level and hit the stage as a Bodybuilder.

joe d
08-07-2012, 06:44 PM
If you use illegal substances to compete...men's physique is not for you. The way i see it MP is about building a great body NATURALLY. If you can't do that then you shouldn't compete or you should take it to another level and hit the stage as a Bodybuilder.
i like this train of thought. it is a nice addition to the ifbb for those who dont want to abuse the shit out of their bodies but still enjoy the ifbb. as long as the judging doesnt change thet juicers have no advantage anyway so it doesnt matter. the natural guys can still win.

mccheese
08-07-2012, 07:21 PM
If you use illegal substances to compete...men's physique is not for you. The way i see it MP is about building a great body NATURALLY. If you can't do that then you shouldn't compete or you should take it to another level and hit the stage as a Bodybuilder.

I agree. They should go all the way and not "drop down" to the MPD cause they couldn't hack it as a bodybuilder.

juiceinator3000
08-07-2012, 08:19 PM
I agree. They should go all the way and not "drop down" to the MPD cause they couldn't hack it as a bodybuilder.
I think it's not that it might have to do with being done with putting hormones in their body

Provo82
08-08-2012, 07:58 AM
Most people I talk to adamantly claim that the majority of national and pro bikini competitors use anavar, T3, clen, and maybe even nolva and GH. They say they have been told directly by girls and/or their coaches. If that's true, does it really surprise you that men would be using?

suprise me? not one bit. theres guy walking around local gyms on 2 grams of shit that dont even look like they workout. Then uve got some really hardworking natural bodybuilders that carry 3 times the amount of muscle. our society is lazy people do drugs for the quick fix so no suprise to me there.

Provo82
08-08-2012, 07:59 AM
i like this train of thought. it is a nice addition to the ifbb for those who dont want to abuse the shit out of their bodies but still enjoy the ifbb. as long as the judging doesnt change thet juicers have no advantage anyway so it doesnt matter. the natural guys can still win.

i agree with this sentiment as well. if the judging stays consistent and doesnt reward the geared up look in this division it can bea nice medium for some people.

CDJack
08-08-2012, 08:14 AM
i agree with this sentiment as well. if the judging stays consistent and doesnt reward the geared up look in this division it can bea nice medium for some people.

Agree. There's quite a number of guys at national shows that are clearly juicing, covered in acne on their back when you see up close, including some people who just turned pro in the last 2 months.

I see this division as being made up of several different types of people:

1) Men who simply don't like the look/size of a bodybuilder (at a national or pro level) and don't want to be that big.

2) Men who are realistic and know they won't be able to turn pro as a bodybuilder. Maybe they have good shape and are attractive and will do much better with a career in MP

3) Health reasons -- maybe someone doesn't want to take steroids or doesn't want to take as much steroids as would be required to do well as a bodybuilder.

A lot of this has to do with genetics. Some people have the genetics to compete in MPD without drugs and some don't (to be competitive or a pro at least). There is also quite a bit of discrepancy in the judging. It looked like they were going for a bigger and harder look at Team U and then I was baffled by USAs. Maybe it's east coast vs west coast judging....

David Lees
08-08-2012, 11:09 AM
^^^ I too have heard that east coast judging favors the larger more muscular physiques (which I believe is to my advantage) compared to west coast which prefers more of the lean slimmed down look.

CDJack
08-08-2012, 11:39 AM
^^^ I too have heard that east coast judging favors the larger more muscular physiques (which I believe is to my advantage) compared to west coast which prefers more of the lean slimmed down look.

From what i've seen at USAs, west coast judging not only prefers less muscularity, but they also prefer a softer look, not leaner. Just look at the overall winner from USAs. He's a perfect example. He wouldn't have placed at Team U.

amarks
12-13-2012, 11:44 PM
looks as if he's on a prop masteron blend stacked with either var or winni to dry they're muscles out.

CDJack
12-14-2012, 11:34 PM
looks as if he's on a prop masteron blend stacked with either var or winni to dry they're muscles out.

This kind of comment is ridiculous. You are guessing what a guy is taking based on how he looks? You've got to be kidding me...

And btw, winstrol and anavar don't "dry the muscles out". That's also a ridiculous statement.

amckearney
01-02-2013, 12:50 AM
I personally compete naturally but my buddies in the division like to stick to 500-600mg of Test a week (Enanthate or Prop) and Generally either Var or Winny in low doses. Alot of the physique competitors i know also like T3X or Liothyrionine Sodium as well for increased protein synthesis and increased metabolism.

M4BTEAM
01-02-2013, 02:47 AM
It's very interesting to see such low doses being used. I've noticed that many men's physique competitors use a very high volume training approach to sculpt their bodies. I wonder if the higher volume guys are cycling different to the competitors who use the lower volume approach.

s2h
01-06-2013, 05:41 AM
I see.many mpds guys.cycles not being that far off from male bb's....even more in some cases....but it would be impossible to say or know what everyone is taking...cause its all over the map...

M4BTEAM
01-06-2013, 12:07 PM
I see.many mpds guys.cycles not being that far off from male bb's....even more in some cases....but it would be impossible to say or know what everyone is taking...cause its all over the map...

I'm assuming their build is highly influenced by training and diet if they truly take so much gear. But Serge Nubret added substantial mass with his Extreme High Volume Approach... so I agree they probably have vast differences from competitor to competitor.

It would still be very interesting to see several cycles and compare them.

KTTraining
01-07-2013, 04:14 PM
I trained a guy for Mens Physique this summer that placed top 5 in 3 shows ( 2nd in one) in Florida . He went to nats and got 11 th . * I was only responsible for his training and diet He's a good guy , but very stubborn and wanted to continue using what he felt was best regardless of what I felt . He used between 50 and 75 mgs anavar , test 400 , winstrol 50 every other day . Yup ...all in quest of 18 inch arms ... Kinda sad if you think that many bodybuilders can win shows on far far less .

M4BTEAM
01-07-2013, 10:03 PM
I trained a guy for Mens Physique this summer that placed top 5 in 3 shows ( 2nd in one) in Florida . He went to nats and got 11 th . * I was only responsible for his training and diet He's a good guy , but very stubborn and wanted to continue using what he felt was best regardless of what I felt . He used between 50 and 75 mgs anavar , test 400 , winstrol 50 every other day . Yup ...all in quest of 18 inch arms ... Kinda sad if you think that many bodybuilders can win shows on far far less .

Thanks for this. It's actually quite similar to what I was imagining, so it's great to get some insider info on it.

KTTraining
01-08-2013, 01:37 AM
No problem , M4b . although that is only one example . I'd hate to think all were similar , but I don't doubt it .

Joshua H
01-09-2013, 10:03 PM
Calling myself out on the niave card but I thought for damn sure I caught a break in flipping to MPD this spring as their would not be such a drive or need to use gear since size is not the major outcome. Being a 6'2'' ecto I never had the genes anyway to fill out and do well as a bodybuilder (I tried in 3 natty shows) and yet now it seems there is still a good presence and use of gear in MPD as well although less frequent and not as aggressive as with bodybuilding I imagine.

Regardless of what is or is not, MPD still offers a guy like me a much better shot at being competitive then bodybuilding ever did (without gear that is).

Big Barry
01-13-2013, 02:25 PM
Calling myself out on the niave card but I thought for damn sure I caught a break in flipping to MPD this spring as their would not be such a drive or need to use gear since size is not the major outcome. Being a 6'2'' ecto I never had the genes anyway to fill out and do well as a bodybuilder (I tried in 3 natty shows) and yet now it seems there is still a good presence and use of gear in MPD as well although less frequent and not as aggressive as with bodybuilding I imagine.

Regardless of what is or is not, MPD still offers a guy like me a much better shot at being competitive then bodybuilding ever did (without gear that is).

MPD would be better if they didn't wear shorts, then it could turn into more of a classic bodybuilding division.

mareck
01-16-2013, 02:27 AM
MPD would be better if they didn't wear shorts, then it could turn into more of a classic bodybuilding division.

i would love to compete in that!

M4BTEAM
01-16-2013, 08:44 AM
i would love to compete in that!

I agree with Barry. It would be an excellent division. An attractive division to young guys who want to look good and not look like a freak.

But of course they would have to ditch the board shorts first.

tpeter
06-01-2013, 08:56 PM
I know 4 close friends that just competed in April here in the south.. All were on tren and test.. others on var and mast and 1 on all but he took the test out a few weeks in advance and started letro to really dry out..

I would bet over 70% these days are on gear for MP.

PMW_Fitness
06-28-2013, 11:18 PM
Sorry to bump this thread but there is no point taking gear for MP, plus winning is cool and everything but the real winning in the MP division is off the stage with sponsorships and networking as we have seen so many be succesful.

t4ufit
07-01-2013, 06:00 AM
If you use illegal substances to compete...men's physique is not for you. The way i see it MP is about building a great body NATURALLY. If you can't do that then you shouldn't compete or you should take it to another level and hit the stage as a Bodybuilder.

I know this is an older thread by now but I want to give MAJOR props to Ian! I totally agree with him!

I think using pharmaceuticals to compete in ANY sport will always taint your success even if the majority of other competitors are using them.

Ultimately at the end of the day what you've achieved is not your own no matter how many lies one tells themselves.

I'm a 53 year old fitness professional and have been training for most of my adult life. Even though I'm not the most genetically gifted individual at least at the end of the day I know that anything I've achieved is my own and can't be taken away from me.

I've watched professional Bodybuilding destroy itself year after year and now I can't believe anyone can take it seriously!

I was excited when Men's Physique appeared on the scene because finally it looked like 'Physical Culture' was making a comeback, and in fact it is with certain competitors (such as Ian and a few others).

My concern now is that I hope the judges for Men's Physique will 'keep a lid' on the physiques they deem are fit to win or else they will have the same problem all over again!

I think it is outstanding that Ian and others like him are willing to stick to their guns and do the right thing in spite of the fact that they aren't in a 'fair fight' w/ the other guys using PEDs!

t4ufit
07-01-2013, 08:07 AM
Sorry to bump this thread but there is no point taking gear for MP, plus winning is cool and everything but the real winning in the MP division is off the stage with sponsorships and networking as we have seen so many be succesful.

Well said!

t4ufit
07-01-2013, 08:55 AM
I wanted to share some quotes from the legendary Dave Draper which really hit home for me. This is from an interview on NPR in which he speaks about Steroids:

“I have used steroids in the past, this would be back in the 60s. In those days there was a mild use of them, they were new on the market and not everyone new everything about them (such as the down side). They weren’t used excessively and under a doctor’s care. As one current bodybuilder referred to my usage of steroids he said ‘that’s like eating pablum’ when I told him what I had done in the past and he kind of snickered”

Interviewer: … You also say that drug use within the healthy gym environment is destructive, and that if you had to offer any advice about steroids it’s ‘be careful, they’ll eat away at whatever foundation you want to create in terms of a healthy lifestyle’

Dave Draper: "Yes, with steroids, you are enhancing your abilities unnaturally, and it’s a temporary enhancement and when you step off them everything that you’ve put together under them diminishes, and therefore it’s artificial….there’s no free lunch… and you miss the whole wonderful experience of training hard and making gains on your own by healthy training’

Bryan Hildebrand
07-01-2013, 10:29 AM
To deny its use in MP is silly. I have consulted with dozens or top pro and am MP competitors. Most primarily because they had no idea what they were doing. Bringing them to healthy levels and monitoring bloodwork alone is making them healthier than they were. Education is key.

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

t4ufit
07-02-2013, 06:02 AM
I guess I'm puzzled most by the motivation behind using these drugs in any physique sport.

While I don't condone illegal PED use in any circumstance, I can almost understand the motivation of a pro football or baseball player that can make millions of dollars and set their family up for life. And again, I still think it's completely wrong to do that since it gives one an unfair competitive advantage.

However most physique athletes (including bodybuilders, figure, men's physique etc) are not going to really reap huge financial rewards from the sport, maybe a tiny fraction of all competitors really see any real money from this.

So what is the motivation? Winning titles? For what end? I mean I think winning titles is great but not if one needs to use illegal and potentially dangerous substances to do so?

Is this just all about ego, wanting to pretend to be someone they are not? Being the 'biggest guy in the gym?'

I guess the motivation just seems strange to me!

Mac
07-02-2013, 06:03 AM
It is called winning, like in every other sport.

t4ufit
07-02-2013, 08:45 AM
It is called winning, like in every other sport.

Yeah, but winning what? You get a trophy? A Title? And then what do you do with it?

Winning is great but is the risk really worth the reward if one has to use illegal and potentially harmful substances?

Maybe it's just that I'm seeing thru eyes of someone who is a bit older but it seems utterly foolish to me to do all that for a title with no real long term gain!

Again in something like the NFL, NHL, MLB or other sport where there is a real financial gain to be had I can almost understand it. But for physique sports what is the REAL benefit outside of some misguided ego boost?

And where is the pride if one had to use drugs to attain the win?

Mac
07-02-2013, 09:11 AM
Yeah, but winning what? You get a trophy? A Title? And then what do you do with it?

Winning is great but is the risk really worth the reward if one has to use illegal and potentially harmful substances?

Maybe it's just that I'm seeing thru eyes of someone who is a bit older but it seems utterly foolish to me to do all that for a title with no real long term gain!

Again in something like the NFL, NHL, MLB or other sport where there is a real financial gain to be had I can almost understand it. But for physique sports what is the REAL benefit outside of some misguided ego boost?

And where is the pride if one had to use drugs to attain the win?


If you have never won anything, winning something is better than nothing at all. If you have won something, you will continue to try and win more, sometimes at any cost.

I have several trophies, displayed here in my office. They remind me of when I won.

People risk their lives everyday, smoking, drinking, taking drugs, driving cars, flying in airplanes, all for what?

Who cares how you win? Or if you took drugs to win.
YOU WON!

Is coffee a drug and do you drink it?

How old are you?

Curt James
07-02-2013, 09:14 AM
Again in something like the NFL, NHL, MLB or other sport where there is a real financial gain to be had I can almost understand it. But for physique sports what is the REAL benefit outside of some misguided ego boost?

I am curious how many athletes in the NFL, NHL, MLB, etc. are truly concerned about financial gain. Yes, I've seen the articles and films that tell how much of an edge PEDs give athletes trying to reach professional status in baseball and other sports, but when it comes down to it? I'll bet a larger motivation is simply winning.

The Vince Lombardi Trophy, the Stanley Cup, the Commissioner's Trophy, the Sandow!

Baseball players want to play on the winning team as much as Phil Heath or Kai Greene want that Sandow. Do you think Arnold was interested in beating Sergio because of financial gain? Gate receipts are not the chief concern for most athletes would be my bet.

t4ufit
07-02-2013, 09:18 AM
If you have never won anything, winning something is better than nothing at all. If you have won something, you will continue to try and win more, sometimes at any cost.

I have several trophies, displayed here in my office. They remind me of when I won.

People risk their lives everyday, smoking, drinking, taking drugs, driving cars, flying in airplanes, all for what?

Who cares how you win? Or if you took drugs to win.
YOU WON!

Is coffee a drug and do you drink it?

How old are you?

First I'm 53 years old and I'm a fitness professional and I've been training consistently since the mid 1980s.

To me the 'winning' of training comes from the benefits of the training itself. At 53 years old I'm the most fit I've ever been, I have virtually no pain in my body and don't live on meds unlike most people my age.

I've got the energy to train clients and teach boot camp classes 7 days per week. I'm able to be a good role model for my kids and my college age son trains all the time!

I actually don't drink, or smoke, or do any drugs.

I don't drink coffee but I do drink tea, and last time I checked it wasn't illegal or harmful. You can't compare that to using an illegal substance that alters one's hormonal profile.

That is great that you won trophies but what risk did you have to take to win them? Did you have to break the law by using illegal substances? Did you have to put your health at risk?

If you did, that is totally your right to do so, but to me those things aren't worth a trophy!

t4ufit
07-02-2013, 09:24 AM
I am curious how many athletes in the NFL, NHL, MLB, etc. are truly concerned about financial gain. Yes, I've seen the articles and films that tell how much of an edge PEDs give athletes trying to reach professional status in baseball and other sports, but when it comes down to it? I'll bet a larger motivation is simply winning.

The Vince Lombardi Trophy, the Stanley Cup, the Commissioner's Trophy, the Sandow!

Baseball players want to play on the winning team as much as Phil Heath or Kai Greene want that Sandow. Do you think Arnold was interested in beating Sergio because of financial gain? Gate receipts are not the chief concern for most athletes would be my bet.

You do make an excellent point. I agree that the best athletes are driven by more than money, but still at the end of the day these guys, if smart, also are set for life.

However, I don't think breaking the law and risking one's health are a worthwhile tradeoff.

Clearly this is my opinion, I was just stating how I feel about it. Everyone is entitled to take personal risks.

I was just wondering about the motivation and I guess for some 'winning' is enough motivation to take those risks.

Still, a lot of guys do this when they are younger and may feel invincible. They may not realize the toll PED's may take on their body (not to mention how it can effect their life if they get busted for illegal substances).

Mac
07-02-2013, 09:27 AM
First I'm 53 years old and I'm a fitness professional and I've been training consistently since the mid 1980s.

To me the 'winning' of training comes from the benefits of the training itself. At 53 years old I'm the most fit I've ever been, I have virtually no pain in my body and don't live on meds unlike most people my age.

I've got the energy to train clients and teach boot camp classes 7 days per week. I'm able to be a good role model for my kids and my college age son trains all the time!

I actually don't drink, or smoke, or do any drugs.

I don't drink coffee but I do drink tea, and last time I checked it wasn't illegal or harmful. You can't compare that to using an illegal substance that alters one's hormonal profile.

That is great that you won trophies but what risk did you have to take to win them? Did you have to break the law by using illegal substances? Did you have to put your health at risk?

If you did, that is totally your right to do so, but to me those things aren't worth a trophy!

I am 57. My points were to WHY these people do it. Not saying it's right or wrong to do what they do to win.

That's great you don't do drugs, smoke or drink. I don't drink any more either. Bad shit. Killed my former wife.

I am not comparing coffee to illegal hormones nor condoning their use. Simply asking if you drank coffee, and then would ask why? It works to improve one's performance. Where one stops and starts as to what's acceptable to do that is a very broad range.

To win my trophies in weight lifting and bodybuilding, I took no risks, other than lifting weights and dieting. That's controversial too.

Your stance is I disagree with you and that because I have trophies I took drugs to get them or somehow risked my life in the process. Guess what. You would be very wrong if you thought that.

Mac
07-02-2013, 09:33 AM
Still, a lot of guys do this when they are younger and may feel invincible. They may not realize the toll PED's may take on their body (not to mention how it can effect their life if they get busted for illegal substances).

The young people of today will not listen well to the voices of experience. Even us old-timers are hard pressed to do so.

I won my trophies back in the 80s, before I even knew about steroids.

I risked my life taking Hoffman's protein powder and liver tablets.

t4ufit
07-02-2013, 09:41 AM
I am 57. My points were to WHY these people do it. Not saying it's right or wrong to do what they do to win.

That's great you don't do drugs, smoke or drink. I don't drink any more either. Bad shit. Killed my former wife.

I am not comparing coffee to illegal hormones nor condoning their use. Simply asking if you drank coffee, and then would ask why? It works to improve one's performance. Where one stops and starts as to what's acceptable to do that is a very broad range.

To win my trophies in weight lifting and bodybuilding, I took no risks, other than lifting weights and dieting. That's controversial too.

Your stance is I disagree with you and that because I have trophies I took drugs to get them or somehow risked my life in the process. Guess what. You would be very wrong if you thought that.

First I'm terribly sorry to hear about your former wife, that is awful!

I didn't say you did drugs, I asked if you did in order to win. If you didn't then that is great! I apologize if it sounded like I implied that you did.

As far as performance improvement, again my point is risk vrs reward. I don't believe the small amount of caffeine in the tea I drink is harmful nor does it create a tremendous performance enhancement. Tea in general is pretty healthy, especially green tea which is what I drink the most (and for full disclosure I do like English Breakfast tea first thing in the morning).

Ultimately I feel people can do whatever they want if they don't harm other people in the process, I was primarily interested in the motivation.

Still I would personally have a hard time being proud of gains I made if I had to resort to hormonal enhancement, but that's just me and everyone is entitled to make their own choices.

Curt James
07-02-2013, 09:42 AM
The young people of today will not listen well to the voices of experience. Even us old-timers are hard pressed to do so.

I won my trophies back in the 80s, before I even knew about steroids.

I risked my life taking Hoffman's protein powder and liver tablets.

You're a brave man. Bob's Hi-Proteen did not mix well at all. The clumps alone were a hazard to your life!

http://www.rxmuscle.com/images/stories/articles/IronSubculture/ProteinPowderHistory/HoffmanGainWt.jpg

Mac
07-02-2013, 09:48 AM
As far as performance improvement, again my point is risk vrs reward. I don't believe the small amount of caffeine in the tea I drink is harmful nor does it create a tremendous performance enhancement.

Not everyone has the mental capacity to determine the risk vs. reward threshold.

But it gets to the point I made, where is something acceptable, at what level? Is two cups of tea too much? For you it might be. I can drink 10 cups of coffee and it would send others to the hospital thinking that they're having a heart attack.

It is exactly as you said, everyone is entitled to make their own choices.

Be happy, proud that you have made the right ones, for you. :D

Mac
07-02-2013, 09:49 AM
You're a brave man. Bob's Hi-Proteen did not mix well at all. The clumps alone were a hazard to your life!



I think a few of them clogged my throat at one point.

Curt James
07-02-2013, 09:52 AM
Still I would personally have a hard time being proud of gains I made if I had to resort to hormonal enhancement, but that's just me and everyone is entitled to make their own choices.

How would you feel if your hormonal panel was out of sorts? Are you talking about PEDs and anabolics related to winning a tin cup or quality of life as well?

If you're only talking about winning a contest then are you concerned only with pride or also legality? If legality is part of your concern then what are your thoughts on legal prohormones?

Thank you for contributing the Draper quotes and this thread! Met Draper at an early Arnold Classic. Was happy to meet a childhood hero. He posed for a fan snapshot with me. I'm sure the pic is in a box somewhere.

Unrelated to this thread, okay, but whenever I think of Draper I normally think of the expression I made in that pic. lol On the inside I was this happy kid meeting his hero, but on the outside I had this angry expression on my face. D'OH! Draper was smiling pleasantly. I'm guessing it was a facial blink like some people close their eyes involuntarily when their snapshot is taken. =8^O

On topic Draper, he has a great site. I'm sure you've visited as well. http://www.davedraper.com/index.html

Mac
07-02-2013, 09:53 AM
Still I would personally have a hard time being proud of gains I made if I had to resort to hormonal enhancement, but that's just me and everyone is entitled to make their own choices.


This makes me wonder if I should be proud of having the physique that I have because I am able to afford good food. Or am I a product of just a good diet. My friend in Jamaica struggles to get good gains because protein rich foods is hard to come by. HE thinks I am cheating because of my food.

My analogy probably does not make sense to you.

Hormonal manipulation does not make the champion. It only levels the competition factor if everyone can take the same things.

Curt James
07-02-2013, 09:58 AM
I think a few of them clogged my throat at one point.

haHA Yes, not surprising. That stuff refused to mix. I remember trying to mix it in a tall glass of milk with a spoon. This was when I was a teenager. Don't believe my grandmother had a blender. She had a mixer. I can just imagine if she walked into the kitchen and I'd been using her mixer to blend a protein drink.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-0gsCpcckgps/UdLcd-sT-3I/AAAAAAAADjQ/lwnVyM9UV78/s640/sunbeam.JPG

Mac
07-02-2013, 10:07 AM
On topic Draper, he has a great site. I'm sure you've visited as well. http://www.davedraper.com/index.html


Looks like a site that was designed in 1991.

t4ufit
07-02-2013, 11:28 AM
Not everyone has the mental capacity to determine the risk vs. reward threshold.

But it gets to the point I made, where is something acceptable, at what level? Is two cups of tea too much? For you it might be. I can drink 10 cups of coffee and it would send others to the hospital thinking that they're having a heart attack.

It is exactly as you said, everyone is entitled to make their own choices.

Be happy, proud that you have made the right ones, for you. :D


I guess to me re performance enhancement, I'm primarily speaking in terms of substances that are hormonal in nature used for the purpose of physique enhancement that would otherwise be unattainable.

Also I think it is not a great choice for people to break the law by use of illegal substances but that is a whole different issue.

t4ufit
07-02-2013, 11:38 AM
How would you feel if your hormonal panel was out of sorts? Are you talking about PEDs and anabolics related to winning a tin cup or quality of life as well?

If you're only talking about winning a contest then are you concerned only with pride or also legality? If legality is part of your concern then what are your thoughts on legal prohormones

As far as folks using legal hormones to correct deficiencies, if prescribed by a credible doctor, that is very different and I personally see nothing at all wrong with that.

Re legal prohormones, it depends. My concern is that the supplement industry doesn't seem to be regulated enough to make sure they are safe. I remember Eric Broser talking about a product he tried once for a company that endorsed him that made him feel quite ill. He didn't use them for a competition just at the request of the company to see how he reacted to them.

If some is using those in competition, it depends on if those are considered acceptable to the organization so that it isn't giving them an unfair advantage.

For example I believe there are many legal substances that are banned by some natural federations and yet there are guys that still try to use them to give an edge over the other competitors.

If someone is doing something that they blatantly know is against the rules and helps them win over someone who is following the rules, I wonder how proud they would be of their accomplishment.

t4ufit
07-02-2013, 11:45 AM
This makes me wonder if I should be proud of having the physique that I have because I am able to afford good food. Or am I a product of just a good diet. My friend in Jamaica struggles to get good gains because protein rich foods is hard to come by. HE thinks I am cheating because of my food.

My analogy probably does not make sense to you.

Hormonal manipulation does not make the champion. It only levels the competition factor if everyone can take the same things.


I do know where you are coming from regarding the analogy but I'm really speaking in terms of drugs.

I can see why your friend in Jamaica might be frustrated that you have better food than him but you're not doing anything illegal or dangerous. My main points are regarding the risk vrs reward of using PED's (both physiologically and legally) and the fact that I personally wouldn't feel really proud of myself for making gains by pharmaceutical means.

Again, that is my personal feeling.

I do agree that Hormonal manipulation in and of itself doesn't make champions, but then again I do believe that chemical enhancement has become somewhat of an 'art form' with competitors and someone who is better at using the right chemicals for their body can win over someone with less skill at this manipulation.

Ultimately I guess I wish that stuff was never used in any competitive event of any kind but I know that is extremely idealistic.

But I'm just expressing my opinion and you know what that's worth (opinions are like..... everyone has one and they all stink!)

I appreciate that you engaged me in a civil and intelligent discussion about this topic!

t4ufit
07-02-2013, 11:48 AM
I think a few of them clogged my throat at one point.

I never tried the hoffman protein, but I tried plenty of the other awful stuff back then! I definitely have great appreciation for the great proteins available these days!

t4ufit
07-02-2013, 11:53 AM
I want to thank both Mac and Curt for engaging in this conversation, it was refreshing to be able to discuss a somewhat controversial topic in a reasonable way on an online forum (something very rare these days).

Curt James
07-02-2013, 11:54 AM
Looks like a site that was designed in 1991.

I bet it's inexpensive to maintain. Content or bells and whistles? I like both, but if I had to choose one? Content is king!

Mac
07-02-2013, 11:59 AM
I do know where you are coming from regarding the analogy but I'm really speaking in terms of drugs.



My point was to many, it does not matter how the edge is gained. They want to win, at any cost.

Because society deems it to be a drug, it doesn't dissuade them any more from using them less. If tea was a drug, by our society's designation, you would stop consuming tea. I wouldn't, because I would think it's a stupid law imposed by some judge somewhere. I see nothing wrong with it. Your tea is another's anadrol, test ethanate or HGH.

Simply taking a pharmaceutical does not make one a champion.

Mac
07-02-2013, 12:00 PM
I bet it's inexpensive to maintain. Content or bells and whistles? I like both, but if I had to choose one? Content is king!


Kind of like the pretty woman with little or no intelligence?

There is a lot of content there and you're right.

Dadup
07-02-2013, 12:03 PM
I actually enjoyed reading this "debate"... REPS FOR ALL

Curt James
07-02-2013, 12:04 PM
If someone is doing something that they blatantly know is against the rules and helps them win over someone who is following the rules, I wonder how proud they would be of their accomplishment.

I'm guessing that particular person would have a very different interpretation of pride in accomplishment than you. If someone is willing to break rules to achieve a task then those rules probably hold little value to them and their pride in accomplishing or achieving their goal would not be diminished at all.

Of course I'm sure there are those who feel guilt over winning by any means necessary.

So far as risk, there are people out there (or registered here) who know how to use various substances in the safest possible manner. Another guess, yes, but it seems to be pretty accurate.

Ffwd to 4:20

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0LEj8IPHGU

Mac
07-02-2013, 12:06 PM
Ffwd to 4:20

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0LEj8IPHGU

4:20

Was there some PUN to that

t4ufit
07-02-2013, 12:06 PM
My point was to many, it does not matter how the edge is gained. They want to win, at any cost.

Because society deems it to be a drug, it doesn't dissuade them any more from using them less. If tea was a drug, by our society's designation, you would stop consuming tea. I wouldn't, because I would think it's a stupid law imposed by some judge somewhere. I see nothing wrong with it. Your tea is another's anadrol, test ethanate or HGH.

Simply taking a pharmaceutical does not make one a champion.


I have to disagree with the notion that tea can be equated to a hormonal substance. Certainly I wouldn't take tea if it was an illegal substance because to me the risk of participating in an illegal activity wouldn't be worth the reward of drinking tea.

However, tea in and of itself is not an anabolic substance that would give someone a hormonal edge and it is not known to be a potentially dangerous substance.

I agreed with you above that simply taking drugs doesn't make a champion but there's no doubt that all things being equal, the person with the better access to and knowledge of how to use these drugs does give them an edge which can make them a champion over someone else.

Mac
07-02-2013, 12:11 PM
I have to disagree with the notion that tea can be equated to a hormonal substance. Certainly I wouldn't take tea if it was an illegal substance because to me the risk of participating in an illegal activity wouldn't be worth the reward of drinking tea.



You're missing the point.

But that is OK.

Drink too much tea and I think you'll find some possible side effects.

Mac
07-02-2013, 12:16 PM
I agreed with you above that simply taking drugs doesn't make a champion but there's no doubt that all things being equal, the person with the better access to and knowledge of how to use these drugs does give them an edge which can make them a champion over someone else.

OK, you brought up another point.

They can gain an advantage by better access to knowledge of how to use the drugs. So too would having access to better nutrition, training facilities, money and less stress in life. Should those advantages be taken away because some don't have them?

The problem is you deem it illegal in regards to the substances being used.

Steroids save lives too.

Too much water WILL kill you.

t4ufit
07-02-2013, 12:19 PM
You're missing the point.

But that is OK.

Drink too much tea and I think you'll find some possible side effects.


Let me put it this way...

If I had to use an illegal substance to save my own or someone elses life I would do it (that is a risk worth the reward) but if I had to use an illegal and potentially harmful substance just to add more muscle for the sake of my vanity or for a competition I wouldn't do it.

Also I would never be proud of myself using a substance to give me an unfair advantage over someone who was following competitive rules.

t4ufit
07-02-2013, 12:21 PM
OK, you brought up another point.

They can gain an advantage by better access to knowledge of how to use the drugs. So to would having access to better nutrition, training facilities, money and less stress in life. Should those advantages be taken away because some don't have them?

The problem is you deem it illegal in regards to the substances being used.

Steroids save lives too.

Too much water WILL kill you.

I think this is getting into semantics and this can become an endless circular conversation.

Curt James
07-02-2013, 12:25 PM
4:20

Was there some PUN to that

lol I had to Google that, honestly.

I'm not a smoker but fully support the legalization and/or decriminalization of marijuana. Money spent on interdiction and incarceration would be better spent on education and, where necessary, rehabilitation. I'm sick of families being destroyed over drug charges.

Mac
07-02-2013, 12:33 PM
I think this is getting into semantics and this can become an endless circular conversation.

Ok. Semantics and analogies aside.

I was hoping to take some of your puzzlement away as to why someone uses PEDS, drugs or tea.

You made your point of view and mine was that others have their own points of views as well which have merit if you take out the legality issues.

Your myopic viewpoints and morality are not always shared by the rest of the world and I will end there.

Mac
07-02-2013, 12:35 PM
lol I had to Google that, honestly.

I'm not a smoker but fully support the legalization and/or decriminalization of marijuana. Money spent on interdiction and incarceration would be better spent on education and, where necessary, rehabilitation. I'm sick of families being destroyed over drug charges.


I am shocked you didn't know that, really. I support them too.

But I am sure glad they shut down that meth house next door. Parking was getting really bad.

Curt James
07-02-2013, 12:46 PM
I think this is getting into semantics and this can become an endless circular conversation.

se·man·tics (s -m n t ks). n.
The branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning.
The meaning of a word, phrase, sentence, or text: "such quibbling over semantics may seem petty stuff".

Fine line between food and drugs? Or a longstanding connection?

"The Food and Drug Administration (FDA or USFDA) is an agency of the United States Department of Health and Human Services, one of the United States federal executive departments. The FDA is responsible for protecting and promoting public health through the regulation and supervision of food safety, tobacco products, dietary supplements, prescription and over-the-counter pharmaceutical drugs (medications), vaccines, biopharmaceuticals, blood transfusions, medical devices, electromagnetic radiation emitting devices (ERED), and veterinary products."

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_and_Drug_Administration

Curt James
07-02-2013, 01:15 PM
Ok. Semantics and analogies aside.

I was hoping to take some of your puzzlement away as to why someone uses PEDS, drugs or tea.

You made your point of view and mine was that others have their own points of views as well which have merit if you take out the legality issues.

Your myopic viewpoints and morality are not always shared by the rest of the world and I will end there.

Not necessarily myopic. While they seem to be lacking tolerance (for contest drug use), their understanding is evident and they have an open mind (from my perspective) as they stated they'd use an illegal drug if it meant saving a family member's life or however they phrased it.


I am shocked you didn't know that, really. I support them too.

But I am sure glad they shut down that meth house next door. Parking was getting really bad.

That's where education and rehabilitation might work better magic than interdiction and incarceration. Legalize meth. I won't use it. You won't use it. But those who do use it will have information and counseling available to them. Right now we just throw them in jail and then release them to continue the behavior.

And I have heard of 4:20 but wasn't thinking of it when I posted that time or ffwd infoz. lol Had to think of what you meant at first and I did Google to verify.

Freaking hippie.

Curt James
07-02-2013, 01:17 PM
However, tea in and of itself is (snip) not known to be a potentially dangerous substance.

Tea killed my mother.

Curt James
07-02-2013, 01:17 PM
Wait. What?

Mac
07-02-2013, 01:19 PM
Not necessarily myopic.

Freaking hippie.


As in to shut one's eye and not see what is going on.


I saw you at Freaking Woodstock Curt, don't be calling me a hippie!

Curt James
07-02-2013, 01:49 PM
You mention pride repeatedly in this thread, t4ufit. It seems to me that pride and guilt are two sides of the same coin.

And ever the Googler, I gave psychology of pride (https://www.google.com/#gs_rn=17&gs_ri=psy-ab&tok=GSbwFUpQLRr3CsdcuoGvUQ&cp=18&gs_id=1y&xhr=t&q=psychology+of+pride&es_nrs=true&pf=p&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&oq=psychology+of+prid&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.48705608,d.dmg&fp=6ca84d98d48f74bf&biw=1366&bih=663) a go as a search string.

A critical psychology of pride

By Gavin B. Sullivan

Pride is a personally and culturally significant feeling that has received little attention in psychology and has largely been examined as a positive emotional product of self-evaluative cognitions. Even when the self and identity are included in such theories, it is rare for psychologists to engage in reflexive consideration of the complexities that result from the experience and expression of pride within and by collectives. Critical examination of the work that references to pride and occurrences of proud feelings ‘do’ in contemporary moral, political and cultural practices is required. Pride can also be understood in terms of ‘waves of emotion’ and in broad connections with shame, racism, marginalization, patriotism. In this paper, critical connections with cultural and other theories of pride and shame are highlighted, followed by a brief analysis of events in Australia and Germany which manifest contradictions and tensions in the background to proud feelings. An important role for critical psychology is argued for in challenging disciplinary boundaries and exploring new directions in the understanding of emotional feelings.

Keywords: Pride, national pride, patriotism, self-evaluative emotions, emotion theory

Interest in emotion or affect has spread across and beyond the human sciences as biologists, psychologists, historians, sociologists, anthropologists and cultural theorists compete for the legitimacy of pronouncing upon the expressions, experiences, and descriptions of significant feelings. Despite disciplinary borders, it is now possible to explore multiple aspects, features or dimensions of emotion and to consider, for example, the neurobiology of shame in specific social and cultural practices without fear of contradiction or paradox. Considerable tensions – both metaphorical and real – exist between adherents to these perspectives. However, in combination they provide conceptual and empirical resources with which to fashion insightful and compelling theoretical stories which, in turn, may change existing practices. It is in the context of these recent developments that I will explore the possibilities for a critical psychology of pride, including relationships with other significant emotions in public and private life as well as the importance of proud feelings for understanding collective and cultural practices.

There's a pdf available that continues the article.

I'll have to read the rest of the article to see if Sullivan makes any connections between sports performance and pride or guilt related to use of PEDs and/or AAS.


And where is the pride if one had to use drugs to attain the win?


Still I would personally have a hard time being proud of gains I made if I had to resort to hormonal enhancement, but that's just me and everyone is entitled to make their own choices.


If someone is doing something that they blatantly know is against the rules and helps them win over someone who is following the rules, I wonder how proud they would be of their accomplishment.


My main points are regarding the risk vrs reward of using PED's (both physiologically and legally) and the fact that I personally wouldn't feel really proud of myself for making gains by pharmaceutical means.


Also I would never be proud of myself using a substance to give me an unfair advantage over someone who was following competitive rules.

Curt James
07-02-2013, 01:51 PM
As in to shut one's eye and not see what is going on.


I saw you at Freaking Woodstock Curt, don't be calling me a hippie!

lol

You must be thinking of some jpeg Big Barry created.

I did attend a Phish concert once.

Mac
07-02-2013, 02:10 PM
lol

You must be thinking of some jpeg Big Barry created.

I did attend a Phish concert once.

I see what you are up to now.

http://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2013/04/19/anatomy-of-a-phish-how-to-spot-a-man-in-the-middle/

This is freaking woodstock

Woodstock Festival History (http://www.bethelwoodscenter.org/museum/festivalhistory.aspx)

153396

Curt James
07-02-2013, 07:21 PM
I see what you are up to now.

http://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2013/04/19/anatomy-of-a-phish-how-to-spot-a-man-in-the-middle/

This is freaking woodstock

Woodstock Festival History (http://www.bethelwoodscenter.org/museum/festivalhistory.aspx)

153396

(adjusts bifocals)

You could be right.

PMW_Fitness
07-05-2013, 06:30 PM
If you have never won anything, winning something is better than nothing at all. If you have won something, you will continue to try and win more, sometimes at any cost.

I have several trophies, displayed here in my office. They remind me of when I won.

People risk their lives everyday, smoking, drinking, taking drugs, driving cars, flying in airplanes, all for what?

Who cares how you win? Or if you took drugs to win.
YOU WON!

Is coffee a drug and do you drink it?

How old are you?

if you compete in MP to win and get trophies.....lol thats all.. the stage is a place to celebrate. truly winning is the courage of stepping on stage and letting people critique all the hardwork youve done over the months and the journey youve gotten to that point. Medals and titles are just icing on the cake. im only 20 and i realize this.

Curt James
07-05-2013, 06:42 PM
if you compete in MP to win and get trophies.....lol thats all.. the stage is a place to celebrate. truly winning is the courage of stepping on stage and letting people critique all the hardwork youve done over the months and the journey youve gotten to that point. Medals and titles are just icing on the cake. im only 20 and i realize this.

That sounds like a great attitude and approach to the sport. Kudos.

t4ufit
07-06-2013, 10:14 PM
if you compete in MP to win and get trophies.....lol thats all.. the stage is a place to celebrate. truly winning is the courage of stepping on stage and letting people critique all the hardwork youve done over the months and the journey youve gotten to that point. Medals and titles are just icing on the cake. im only 20 and i realize this.

I totally agree with everything you wrote.... I don't know if you were referring to anything I wrote previously but the context of my statements was primarily re using drugs, that are both illegal and potentially risky from a health standpoint, to accomplish this goal!

If someone is neither breaking the law and/or risking their health via drugs then I think competition just for the joy of competiting, win or lose, is a great accomplishment!

t4ufit
07-06-2013, 10:24 PM
I do want to add if someone decides to use drugs then certainly that is their right (I would at least hope they wouldn't try to do it in a competition that is supposed to be drug-free), I just wouldn't understand the motivation of putting themselves at risk for that in and of itself. To me life is too short and precious to risk one's health for something like that and often younger guys/girls may feel more invincible than folks who have more years on them.

"Rodz"
07-06-2013, 11:38 PM
I guess I'm puzzled most by the motivation behind using these drugs in any physique sport.

While I don't condone illegal PED use in any circumstance, I can almost understand the motivation of a pro football or baseball player that can make millions of dollars and set their family up for life. And again, I still think it's completely wrong to do that since it gives one an unfair competitive advantage.

However most physique athletes (including bodybuilders, figure, men's physique etc) are not going to really reap huge financial rewards from the sport, maybe a tiny fraction of all competitors really see any real money from this.

So what is the motivation? Winning titles? For what end? I mean I think winning titles is great but not if one needs to use illegal and potentially dangerous substances to do so?

Is this just all about ego, wanting to pretend to be someone they are not? Being the 'biggest guy in the gym?'

I guess the motivation just seems strange to me!

this happens from birth, not by taking drugs.

"Rodz"
07-06-2013, 11:43 PM
lol I had to Google that, honestly.

I'm not a smoker but fully support the legalization and/or decriminalization of marijuana. Money spent on interdiction and incarceration would be better spent on education and, where necessary, rehabilitation. I'm sick of families being destroyed over drug charges.

Totally need to get Curt high lolol

t4ufit
07-07-2013, 07:15 AM
this happens from birth, not by taking drugs.

Then why would someone like Barry Bonds, who was already clearly gifted genetically, resort to using drugs? Same w/ A-Rod and others who clearly were dealt a superior genetic hand.

In untested bodybuilding, I understand that everyone is using anabolics, but in many ways it is an 'arms' race. Even Jay Cutler implied that in "Bigger, Faster,Stronger" (I can't remember if it was in the main movie or one of the outtakes) where he spoke about 'having the edge' or something like that. I'm pretty sure he wasn't referring to his genetics, training or nutrition.

Again, if someone wants to take drugs, they aren't doing it in a competition that is supposed to be clean, and they aren't hurting anyone else in the process, that is their business.

I wonder though if they end up with some life threatening side effects down the road if theyd' feel it was worth it?

t4ufit
07-07-2013, 07:32 AM
this happens from birth, not by taking drugs.

Also, to re-quote Dave Draper (who openly speaks about his own use of steroids and said it better than I ever could):


Dave Draper: yes, w/ steroids, you are enhancing your abilities unnaturally, and it’s a temporary enhancement and when you step off them everything that you’ve put together under them diminishes, and therefore it’s artificial….there’s no free lunch… and you miss the whole wonderful experience of training hard and making gains on your own by healthy training’

t4ufit
07-07-2013, 07:43 AM
Here's also a link where Dave talks more in depth about this topic:

http://www.davedraper.com/steroids.html

ubermensch
07-14-2013, 12:47 PM
Yeah, but winning what? You get a trophy? A Title? And then what do you do with it?

Winning is great but is the risk really worth the reward if one has to use illegal and potentially harmful substances?

Maybe it's just that I'm seeing thru eyes of someone who is a bit older but it seems utterly foolish to me to do all that for a title with no real long term gain!

Again in something like the NFL, NHL, MLB or other sport where there is a real financial gain to be had I can almost understand it. But for physique sports what is the REAL benefit outside of some misguided ego boost?

And where is the pride if one had to use drugs to attain the win?

Im a bodybuilder who's used alot of drugs in the past. I have to agree with you here and this is the way a logical and intelligent human being thinks that is focused on making a better future. But when you're in the thick of it, on the drugs, you don't think about it and I guess you could say you aren't thinking right either. It's a pretty moronic sport nowdays really unless you're a very enterprising individual and can make money off of everyone and the supplement companies.

t4ufit
07-14-2013, 04:37 PM
Im a bodybuilder who's used alot of drugs in the past. I have to agree with you here and this is the way a logical and intelligent human being thinks that is focused on making a better future. But when you're in the thick of it, on the drugs, you don't think about it and I guess you could say you aren't thinking right either. It's a pretty moronic sport nowdays really unless you're a very enterprising individual and can make money off of everyone and the supplement companies.

Thanks for taking the time to write what you have written, really well said!

I can also understand how focused and single minded younger athletes especially can get.

Here's an interesting paragraph from a survey that reflects on this:

'There’s a well-known survey in sports, known as the Goldman Dilemma. For it, a researcher, Bob Goldman, began asking elite athletes in the 1980s whether they would take a drug that guaranteed them a gold medal but would also kill them within five years. More than half of the athletes said yes. When he repeated the survey biannually for the next decade, the results were always the same. About half of the athletes were quite ready to take the bargain.'

rcp1936
09-06-2013, 10:04 PM
Now I know how old I really am
Back when I started training with my friends in a garage converted to a gym-mid 50s
Nobody used steroids and we never even heard of them
Either did the biggies and they had some great looking builds

PEDs are absolutely the worst thing that ever happened to sports
Started with the Commie nations
And Dr Ziegler who learned what the Russians were doing and introduced them to
the USA completely regrets ever doing so
I am happy they weren't around when I started training
As a skinny 129 lb 6fter I was able to hit 180 with about 9-10% BF after 4 years of hard training
My brother same thin build as me got up over 200 BUT it took him 6 years
So it can be done PED free but takes time and as Dave Draper said he wonders how many lifters there would be today with out the drugs and the rapid advances they bring

t4ufit
09-07-2013, 04:53 PM
Now I know how old I really am
Back when I started training with my friends in a garage converted to a gym-mid 50s
Nobody used steroids and we never even heard of them
Either did the biggies and they had some great looking builds

PEDs are absolutely the worst thing that ever happened to sports
Started with the Commie nations
And Dr Ziegler who learned what the Russians were doing and introduced them to
the USA completely regrets ever doing so
I am happy they weren't around when I started training
As a skinny 129 lb 6fter I was able to hit 180 with about 9-10% BF after 4 years of hard training
My brother same thin build as me got up over 200 BUT it took him 6 years
So it can be done PED free but takes time and as Dave Draper said he wonders how many lifters there would be today with out the drugs and the rapid advances they bring

Great post!

RinconVet
09-08-2013, 12:04 AM
I wanna know what cycle Jeff Seid uses. He supposedly competes in mens physique and you can tell he's on some good stuff.

Deltasaurus
09-08-2013, 03:11 AM
Im friends with someone competing at the olympia MPD and as well as some others

basically its just about obtaining the size so its more standard BBing stuff than you think

400-1000 mgs of test during gaining with and oral as well, mixture for some of deca, or NPP, and long or short esther test depending if they try to maintain decent condition year round..

and then dieting drugs at the high level is the same a BBing... tren,mast,var etc...
if they have the money which most dont they like hgh and i know many who are big into various peptides...

i was thinking of doing MPD just because id like try it out, the way it seems to be going is more the classic look and a bit smaller than the pros of the 70;s

CDJack
09-20-2013, 01:49 AM
Not everyone, but most of the guys in MP are just younger BBers without freakish genetics who haven't yet gotten that big (or never will). All these guys with <5 yrs training and juicing hard out the gates. That's like 75% of MP pros.

rcp1936
10-02-2013, 06:57 AM
Drugs are so ingrained in BBing since the 70s I am willing to bet if somehow they would disappear a big majority of BBers whether competitors or just guys at the local gym would quit
Without the instant gratification in results that the drugs bring damn few would be willing to put in the years needed for a great build