Squats and Knee Wraps

[thachozenonebx]

I am cursed with the typical brotha genetics....big upper body, underwhelming lower body. So i am trying to get my squat game up. I used to rely on knee wraps for anything over 150lbs. I read somewhere that knee wraps can hinder your leg strength and you shud only use them when you are going SUPER heavy.

I dont squat super heavy but ever since i have ditched the wraps, slowly, the weight i can squat is starting to increase. and my legs are SLOWLY starting to take shape

How many of you guys wear knee wraps and do you buy into the theory that relying on them hinders quad strength?

[buster12]

What dorian said is that the knee strap compresses the cap. thus making the cap and joint grind against each other.( not sure though) I don't beleive in straps...

[thachozenonebx]

What dorian said is that the knee strap compresses the cap. thus making the cap and joint grind against each other.( not sure though) I don't beleive in straps...


cool avi buster :D
that makes sense altho i have no medical background
when i used wraps it seemed like my knees wud hurt..and im like...WTF?
it dont seem like these things are helping at all!!!!!!

[buster12]

lol. PJ Braun uses straps in an interesting way. He wraps it above the knee cap. Aparrently its alot safer. Hopefully he comes and chimes in on this thread to explain it further. thanx for the compliment on my avatar by the way. lol

[TPT]

What dorian said is that the knee strap compresses the cap. thus making the cap and joint grind against each other.( not sure though) I don't beleive in straps...



the strapping does in fact cause faulty mechanics during leg presses or squats. you'll notice when flexing your knee- your patella will track caudally in between the femur and tibia. once you extend the knee- the patella tracks upward because of the isotonic contraction of the quads. these descriptions are required for daily activities. now consider the load during an exercises such as squats with forces that deter tracking of the patella. the quadriceps would no contract or shorten correctly during extension because there is a counter force. i.e., the damn straps!

[TPT]

cool avi buster :D
that makes sense altho i have no medical background
when i used wraps it seemed like my knees wud hurt..and im like...WTF?
it dont seem like these things are helping at all!!!!!!



interesting to analyze how strapping became so conventional and widely accepted. i assume that strapping provides "comfort"- if you will. the femur and tibia are essentailly levers with the knee joint as a pivot point. in high load exercises such as heavy squats or leg presses the knee is say- the most "vulnerable" part mechanically. hence, it moves. if one restricts the joint by strapping or other supports such as orthoses, a greater load may be accomplished. thus, the consequence is greater "comfort."

[BigJD69]

I would wrap up on heavy days.

[Dr Pangloss]

What dorian said is that the knee strap compresses the cap. thus making the cap and joint grind against each other.( not sure though) I don't beleive in straps...


dorian has certainly used knee wraps. i can post a vid where he is.

[Dr Pangloss]

interesting to analyze how strapping became so conventional and widely accepted. i assume that strapping provides "comfort"- if you will. the femur and tibia are essentailly levers with the knee joint as a pivot point. in high load exercises such as heavy squats or leg presses the knee is say- the most "vulnerable" part mechanically. hence, it moves. if one restricts the joint by strapping or other supports such as orthoses, a greater load may be accomplished. thus, the consequence is greater "comfort."


Fred Hatfield recommends them but only at 70% of max and more. I frankly use them when i hit 315 or over on squats. my knees feel much better with them...

[buster12]

dorian has certainly used knee wraps. i can post a vid where he is.
yea, I know. I'm talking about now in his wiser age, he advises against them.:D

[Dr Pangloss]

interesting to analyze how strapping became so conventional and widely accepted. i assume that strapping provides "comfort"- if you will. the femur and tibia are essentailly levers with the knee joint as a pivot point. in high load exercises such as heavy squats or leg presses the knee is say- the most "vulnerable" part mechanically. hence, it moves. if one restricts the joint by strapping or other supports such as orthoses, a greater load may be accomplished. thus, the consequence is greater "comfort."


do you recommend them?

[anthony1992]

I don't use knee wraps unless I am going super heavy

[buster12]

I don't use knee wraps unless I am going super heavy
Not being disrespectful, but arn't you like 16? How heavy could you possibly go? lol:D

[anthony1992]

Not being disrespectful, but arn't you like 16? How heavy could you possibly go? lol:D

ya I'm 16, I just ment useing really heavy weight for me. I usualy squat about 265 for 8-10 reps so 290 would really heavy for me

[Dr Pangloss]

used to squat 495 (five plates) for 3 sets of 6. now ive narrowed my stance and put the bar much higher on my neck so its more like a 'dork' squat. now i use up to 3x455x6; i wrap when i hit 315.

[Shadow]

No wraps! If I started having some knee issues, or didn't feel sure about their strength I'd probably start, though.

[thachozenonebx]

Fred Hatfield recommends them but only at 70% of max and more. I frankly use them when i hit 315 or over on squats. my knees feel much better with them...

see i squat 300LBS and feel fine without them
I havent tried 315 yet but my thought was to wrap my knees when i get to that number

[tjoe]

still on the fence myself.
never used "wraps" but occasionally try knee sleeves (blue rehband ones)
can't decide if I like it better with or without though.
I'm leaning towards only using them for heavy farmers walks and carries and going without during my squats and deads (much more ROM at the knee).

[NTBB]

I used to wrap when going heavy. They difinitely help with lifting, if your are strapped correctly you can get roughly 10% more on your 1rm. But the problem I faced was my mind became dependent on them. Didn't wanna lift without em.
I now squat with no wraps no belts and my quads are far better off as a result. Had to go lighter in early stages but I am now squatting heavier and getting more reps.
Go without. Make your quads work for the weight

[TPT]

do you recommend them?


no, i do not recommend them. pardon my verbose posts 5 and 6. they should have conveyed not using straps, wraps, braces or anything similiar.

one should ask what is the function of the straps? is it to protect the knees? is it to increase lifts? is it to help build muscle? well, the usual response is to increase lifts. if that is your ojective, to merely move through out a range, then straps might be a good choice.

but, what i think bodybuilders usually want is to increase muscle hypertrophy. how could the quadriceps maintain an efficient length tension relationship if forces that deter it are present? it couldn't. thus, the isotonic contraction of the quads is disturbed. a bodybuilder would not want this as it would reduce the likelyhood of hypertrophy of the quads.

meanwhile, what of protection from injury? why would a bodybuilder want to disturb the natural function of the patella tracking during flexion and extension of the knee? well a bodybuilder wouldn't because of the relationship between the patella tracking and activation of quads! any external forces provided to a joint reduces natural internal forces that include muscles, tendons, ligaments, cartilage, etc. i.e., you weaken yourself. now you know what happens at sites of weakness- injury.

[bigtimektz]

no, i do not recommend them. pardon my verbose posts 5 and 6. they should have conveyed not using straps, wraps, braces or anything similiar.

one should ask what is the function of the straps? is it to protect the knees? is it to increase lifts? is it to help build muscle? well, the usual response is to increase lifts. if that is your ojective, to merely move through out a range, then straps might be a good choice.

but, what i think bodybuilders usually want is to increase muscle hypertrophy. how could the quadriceps maintain an efficient length tension relationship if forces that deter it are present? it couldn't. thus, the isotonic contraction of the quads is disturbed. a bodybuilder would not want this as it would reduce the likelyhood of hypertrophy of the quads.

meanwhile, what of protection from injury? why would a bodybuilder want to disturb the natural function of the patella tracking during flexion and extension of the knee? well a bodybuilder wouldn't because of the relationship between the patella tracking and activation of quads! any external forces provided to a joint reduces natural internal forces that include muscles, tendons, ligaments, cartilage, etc. i.e., you weaken yourself. now you know what happens at sites of weakness- injury.

Quoted for intelligence. Nice post.

[freak]

i used to use them when i was into squatting more weight then i could handle, now i dont use them. i still go up to 455x6reps, just dont use wraps. when i was wrapping i could do 495x6.

when i wore wraps i couldnt feel the reps, i was just moving the weight. now without the wraps i feel every rep and my quads burn like a son of a bitch... knees dont bother me either, just make sure you can handle the weight you are squatting.

[Big Sky Guy]

I use knee sleeves for max attempts, generally once every 3-4 months.

[crashcrew56]

I wrap my knees, when I'm doing my powerlifting workouts. I do it to help me lift more weight though, I'm not looking for quad development

[ChunkyThunder]

no, i do not recommend them. pardon my verbose posts 5 and 6. they should have conveyed not using straps, wraps, braces or anything similiar.

one should ask what is the function of the straps? is it to protect the knees? is it to increase lifts? is it to help build muscle? well, the usual response is to increase lifts. if that is your ojective, to merely move through out a range, then straps might be a good choice.

but, what i think bodybuilders usually want is to increase muscle hypertrophy. how could the quadriceps maintain an efficient length tension relationship if forces that deter it are present? it couldn't. thus, the isotonic contraction of the quads is disturbed. a bodybuilder would not want this as it would reduce the likelyhood of hypertrophy of the quads.

meanwhile, what of protection from injury? why would a bodybuilder want to disturb the natural function of the patella tracking during flexion and extension of the knee? well a bodybuilder wouldn't because of the relationship between the patella tracking and activation of quads! any external forces provided to a joint reduces natural internal forces that include muscles, tendons, ligaments, cartilage, etc. i.e., you weaken yourself. now you know what happens at sites of weakness- injury.

Excellent post, you made your point easily understandable with great reasoning.

What about a neoprene sleeve? Would that provide protection without disturbing the natural movement?

[TPT]

Excellent post, you made your point easily understandable with great reasoning.

What about a neoprene sleeve? Would that provide protection without disturbing the natural movement?



thank you. i hope to be- descriptive and understandable.

neoprene sleeves are popular as well. however, much of the arguments made prior for wraps are the same for neoprene sleeves. knee supports such as sleeves are merely different in that they might provide more equal force distribution because of the greater contact surface area of them. some sleeves might have open patella for less pressure on the patella tracking.

knee supports should be used- for support of the knee. e.g., if you had a ligament sprain or tear at the knee, your knee would be quite unstable. this is an example of when knee support might be indicated. but, this does not help one in bodybuilding. i don't think bodybuilders want materials to help them when they could use their own muscles. think about all the muscles that attach around the knee. that's a lot of muscles. so these concerns are not exclusive to quads. once external supports are provide, less internal support are used. i.e., muscles, tendons, etc.

so when people speak of using only during heavy sets- think about what's the point?!

[Wheels]

Lately, I've been doing Hack Squats and Leg Presses before I even get to squats. My legs are already fatigued and I don't need to worry about piling a ton of weight on the bar (Yet another tip from Yates). When I do get to squats I alternate between Free Weight and Smith Machine, I don't use a belt/wraps (I've never actually used wraps). My legs are a strong body part already, but they respond even better using this method.

[Dr Pangloss]

Lately, I've been doing Hack Squats and Leg Presses before I even get to squats. My legs are already fatigued and I don't need to worry about piling a ton of weight on the bar (Yet another tip from Yates). When I do get to squats I alternate between Free Weight and Smith Machine, I don't use a belt/wraps (I've never actually used wraps). My legs are a strong body part already, but they respond even better using this method.


I also usually start with leg press. When i'm starting with leg press i almost never go over 315 on subsequent squats.

[ChunkyThunder]

thank you. i hope to be- descriptive and understandable.

neoprene sleeves are popular as well. however, much of the arguments made prior for wraps are the same for neoprene sleeves. knee supports such as sleeves are merely different in that they might provide more equal force distribution because of the greater contact surface area of them. some sleeves might have open patella for less pressure on the patella tracking.

knee supports should be used- for support of the knee. e.g., if you had a ligament sprain or tear at the knee, your knee would be quite unstable. this is an example of when knee support might be indicated. but, this does not help one in bodybuilding. i don't think bodybuilders want materials to help them when they could use their own muscles. think about all the muscles that attach around the knee. that's a lot of muscles. so these concerns are not exclusive to quads. once external supports are provide, less internal support are used. i.e., muscles, tendons, etc.

so when people speak of using only during heavy sets- think about what's the point?!

I never used any of that stuff, just wondering if it would be beneficial to do so.

[TPT]

I never used any of that stuff, just wondering if it would be beneficial to do so.



good. don't start! lol.

[ChunkyThunder]

I have no plans to now

[thachozenonebx]

Lately, I've been doing Hack Squats and Leg Presses before I even get to squats. My legs are already fatigued and I don't need to worry about piling a ton of weight on the bar (Yet another tip from Yates). When I do get to squats I alternate between Free Weight and Smith Machine, I don't use a belt/wraps (I've never actually used wraps). My legs are a strong body part already, but they respond even better using this method.

i started a similar formula of fatiguing my quads b4 free weight squats.My gym has a squat machine...its a lying sled that has weights pre loaded...i use 200 lbs and do 2 sets of 40 reps ( 80 total) and altho my quads burn like hell..i feel as if my knees are primed for squatting

[Sliced N Diced]

I will only use them on my heaviest set. I used them today and it made my knees feel terrible....

[thepump]

I would wrap up on heavy days.


Yup, that's pretty much my philosophy for years. Had good luck with it.

[crashcrew56]

I will only use them on my heaviest set. I used them today and it made my knees feel terrible....

I think it's something you have to get used to, my knees felt like hell after the last time I used them

[Por2gue]

cool avi buster :D
that makes sense altho i have no medical background
when i used wraps it seemed like my knees wud hurt..and im like...WTF?
it dont seem like these things are helping at all!!!!!!
If you wrap from the inside of your knee on out, that will cause the knee to be out of alignment. The wrap needs to come from the outside in. I wear my straps once I've gotten to 315 on squats and keep putting them on as I add more weight every set there after.

[tropo]

yea, I know. I'm talking about now in his wiser age, he advises against them.:D

I'm getting old myself and at 51 I have the beginning stages of tibiofemoral osteoarthritis in both knees and patella arthritis in my right knee.

I've experimented for about 2 years using knee wraps and knee sleeves, both tight and loose. I can manage up to 300 lbs with no sleeves or wraps, but as soon as I cover them, even with a loose sleeve they feel uncomfortable.

Now I use sleeves to keep the knee warm between sets, but squat without them.

Even if I do bodyweight squats with knee sleeves the knees feel bad.

[Ryan Bracewell]

its unfortunate that TPT does not post here anymore(atleast not much) because he made some good points in this thread. However, majority of his arguement is geared toward bodybuilders and for them I agree 100%. When you are doing lower reps with more extreme weights I really do not like to go without some kind of knee support. As stated the knee is the "weak link" in the equation and when your walking out and moving 600-700 pounds it is much more comfortable to at least have a knee sleeve.

Another thing to consider, IMO, is when someone is taking their body beyond its natural limits you do not want to treat it like your within those limits. ( i.e. the joints do not strengthen at the rate of muscles when your enhanced) So additional supports could become beneficial.

[Ryan Bracewell]

I just wanted to add that even I think studies can be extremely valuable for our training techniques, I doubt there are too many studies looking at how knee sleeves/wraps affect your knee when squatting 500+ lbs. How your body reacts to something when doing an exercise, say squats, at 50% of your 1RM can be quite a bit different then how it responds to 95% of your 1RM.

[Hammerfit]

I use them along w sleeves but only when go over 315 and I dont cover the kneecap 2-3 wraps under the knee and 2-3 wraps over the top of knee

[nitrous]

i was thinking about using wraps on my heaviest set only.. tried it once in the past and thought it felt quite well.. now that i'm going heavy again on my squats i'm thinking it would help but haven't decided

[thesamewords]

wrap every single time. even on the leg press, I dont want development first i want to be able to retain power under the same conditions that I compete under. i compete with wraps so I train with them. staying familiar with your tools is essential.

[Gymrat65]

I use them over 400lbs on squat but wrap for light support, i don't wrap them tight until 500+. I do some exercises to strengthen around the knee area on leg day helped me out a lot (rotational movements).

[The Big Sexy]

I use the PJ Braun method. I start toward the middle/top of my calf, and wrap until I get to the top of my knee cap. On the last 3rd and 2nd revolutions of the knee wrap, I criss-cross over the knee and on the last I wrap straight over it on the top of the cap.

This keeps my knee stable, and doesn't assist in the lift like when I keep wrapping above my knee up my quad a bit. My knee feels stable as shit, never hurts, and because of that confidence - I can do either more reps or more weight.

And this is from a guy who has suffered a knee injury (from paintball, and then softball) and it makes a huge difference on the heavier weights for stability.