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G-Roy
04-22-2009, 12:35 PM
I wanted to start a thread for discussion of the Anabolic or Metabolic diet by Dr. Mauro Pasquale. I've had really great results with it in the past and Im running the diet again now. How have everyones experiences panned out?

G-Roy
04-22-2009, 12:39 PM
Just to summarize if you are unfamiliar with it:

Monday -Friday
Low carb (under 30g)
60% fat
40% protein

Refeed day Saturday and Sunday (or just one day if you prefer)
25-40% fat
15-30% protein
35-55% carb

Premis is that you make a metabolic shift in the first 12-14 days (no carbs first 12-14 days) and become more efficient at utilizing fat. After that refeeds are used to refill glycogen, kill cravings, and kick up metabolism.

Frosty
04-22-2009, 12:45 PM
The Anabolic Diet is quite specific in its recommendations, and for a lot of guys that aren't delusional on their BF%, for the truly lean ones it can be quite good for lean gains.

The Metabolic Diet is quite variable and involves a lot more experimentation to find out what works best for results. In fact, the Palumbo Diet isn't really more than an available option within the Metabolic Diet. Poliquin worked with DiPasquale for his own variation of the Metabolic Diet that I personally quite like, and it's based off of BF% which I also really really like. Poliquin's diet for guys over 10%....12-15 days no carbs, then one cheat meal (sometimes he says day for this ONE time), then having a carb MEAL once every 5-7 days depending on the person. No other carbs. Gee...sounds a lot like Palumbo's cutting diet, huh? :)

The problem in my opinion is that people go overboard with the carb loads, IMO, because the majority of guys don't realize they're fat. To give an idea my avatar pic I was just under 10%, and Poliquin says if you're over 10% you're FAT. Guys think they can start to see their upper abs so they're like 12% when they're more likely 15% or maybe more. Hell my abs start to peak through even if I'm over 15%. A good reference is if you have a clear 6 pack you're likely just under 10% and no longer FAT, and you can start using more carbs. Guys up to that point Dave's cutting diet is a great tool, but it's really just a progression that ties in with the Metabolic Diet.

For us non-carb types, and former fat boys, this is the type of diet that should be used for gaining mass. We work better with less carbs because even for many of us non-carb types we are still somewhat insulin resistant even when we're lean.

Low carb gaining diets might get a bad wrap because you won't put on the kind of weight you will with a carb diet, but for our types of metabolisms, who cares?? I don't care if the scale goes up 30 lbs when 15 or more of it is FAT. There are plenty of ways to stimulate protein synthesis without using carbs...leucine/BCAAs are a good example.

Frosty
04-22-2009, 12:47 PM
Just to summarize if you are unfamiliar with it:

Monday -Friday
Low carb (under 30g)
60% fat
40% protein

Refeed day Saturday and Sunday (or just one day if you prefer)
25-40% fat
15-30% protein
35-55% carb

Premis is that you make a metabolic shift in the first 12-14 days (no carbs first 12-14 days) and become more efficient at utilizing fat. After that refeeds are used to refill glycogen, kill cravings, and kick up metabolism.

Just to make it clear, this is the Anabolic Diet that was released about 14 years ago. The Metabolic Diet is a different story, again just to clarify.

Gothic Muscle
04-22-2009, 01:28 PM
The Anabolic Diet is quite specific in its recommendations, and for a lot of guys that aren't delusional on their BF%, for the truly lean ones it can be quite good for lean gains.

The Metabolic Diet is quite variable and involves a lot more experimentation to find out what works best for results. In fact, the Palumbo Diet isn't really more than an available option within the Metabolic Diet. Poliquin worked with DiPasquale for his own variation of the Metabolic Diet that I personally quite like, and it's based off of BF% which I also really really like. Poliquin's diet for guys over 10%....12-15 days no carbs, then one cheat meal (sometimes he says day for this ONE time), then having a carb MEAL once every 5-7 days depending on the person. No other carbs. Gee...sounds a lot like Palumbo's cutting diet, huh? :)

The problem in my opinion is that people go overboard with the carb loads, IMO, because the majority of guys don't realize they're fat. To give an idea my avatar pic I was just under 10%, and Poliquin says if you're over 10% you're FAT. Guys think they can start to see their upper abs so they're like 12% when they're more likely 15% or maybe more. Hell my abs start to peak through even if I'm over 15%. A good reference is if you have a clear 6 pack you're likely just under 10% and no longer FAT, and you can start using more carbs. Guys up to that point Dave's cutting diet is a great tool, but it's really just a progression that ties in with the Metabolic Diet.

For us non-carb types, and former fat boys, this is the type of diet that should be used for gaining mass. We work better with less carbs because even for many of us non-carb types we are still somewhat insulin resistant even when we're lean.

Low carb gaining diets might get a bad wrap because you won't put on the kind of weight you will with a carb diet, but for our types of metabolisms, who cares?? I don't care if the scale goes up 30 lbs when 15 or more of it is FAT. There are plenty of ways to stimulate protein synthesis without using carbs...leucine/BCAAs are a good example.

Hey Frosty!!

If Dave's cutting diet work so well on fat loss (which I'm currently running now and working well!!) would the same diet not work just as well for a gaining/bulking phase if the cheat meal <or two> were reduced to every 4th or 5th day, all other variables remaining constant - the refeed comes around sooner to restock glycogen and drive anabolism. I've got crohn's disease and really don't do too well with carbs when it's consumed in quantity day in day out so Dave's carb recommendations for a bulking phase would not go down too well with my condition so I need to keep it relatively low carb for the most part, say under 50gms a day. A refeed every 4/5 day is something I could handle I feel but long term moderate/high carb intakes are definately out, my current diet actually resembles a cross between Dave's keto plan and the Paleo (in terms of food choices in keeping with Dave's parameters!!) It's working well but I desperately need some mass soon after having my muscles ravaged by a crohn's flair up so I really need to turn my attention to a gainaing phase.

Thanks for your time dude ^_^
Emz

Frosty
04-22-2009, 01:38 PM
Yes that could possibly work quite well. I'd shoot for 2.25g PRO/lb bwt, and start off at 40% fat for low carb days. Every 5th day do the carb meal as the last meal. Do this for at least a few weeks and see what happens. You can increase fat if you're not gaining, or you could play with doing 2 carb meals every 5th day for meal 5 and 6.

It's just about experimenting and changing based on the results you get. Key to gaining on low carb is getting the carb loads right and just eating enough protein and fat during the low carb period. I highly recommend playing with betaine HCl if it's appropriate for Crohn's disease, to digest all the protein as most people are low in stomach acid and if you can't digest all that protein with low stomach acid. Guys that get protein farts when getting quality protein sources would definitely need to look into this.

Gothic Muscle
04-22-2009, 01:46 PM
Thanks for the swift reply dude, appreciate it!!

ArabMuscle
04-22-2009, 02:58 PM
Very informative bro!

How do you calculate calorie intake when it comes to low-carb gaining? 40% fat of what total calories?

G-Roy
04-22-2009, 03:36 PM
I just finished my first very high carb bulk about a month ago. Im generally a low carb person but I wanted to try the high carb approach to see how it went. I didnt like it for the most part, gained way too much fat and felt lethargic most of the time. So Im back to the Anabolic Diet.

Since my bodyfat is over 10%, about 18-19 right now, should I cut down to one refeed day? I dont want to do the all out Palumbo cut, just from personal preference and past experience.

I already did my 14 days no carb then 1 refeed, next week 5 days no carbs 2 refeeds, same the following week.

Frosty
04-22-2009, 04:40 PM
I just finished my first very high carb bulk about a month ago. Im generally a low carb person but I wanted to try the high carb approach to see how it went. I didnt like it for the most part, gained way too much fat and felt lethargic most of the time. So Im back to the Anabolic Diet.

Since my bodyfat is over 10%, about 18-19 right now, should I cut down to one refeed day? I dont want to do the all out Palumbo cut, just from personal preference and past experience.

I already did my 14 days no carb then 1 refeed, next week 5 days no carbs 2 refeeds, same the following week.

I'd personally drop down to 1 carb meal every 5-7 days. Poliquin recommends this and it jives with what Palumbo recommends as well. Once you get sub 10% you can start adding in more carbs and even PWO carbs if your workouts justify it.

Frosty
04-22-2009, 04:44 PM
Very informative bro!

How do you calculate calorie intake when it comes to low-carb gaining? 40% fat of what total calories?

Quick example:

200 lb male at 8% BF or so

200*2.25=(450g PRO)

(450g PRO)*(4 cal/g PRO) = (1,800 calories from PRO)

If 40% fat, then (1,800 PRO cal)/0.6 = (3,000 total cals from PRO/FAT)

(3,000 total PRO/FAT cals)-(1800 PRO cals) = (1,200 FAT cals)

(1,200 FAT cals)/(9 cal/g FAT) = 133.333g FAT

So there are your totals. 450g PRO, 133g FAT, and whatever trace carbs so long as they're always under (bwt in lbs)*0.25. Anabolic Diet requires under 30g.

You can gradually add fat based on results. Anabolic Diet goes up to 60% fat so there is plenty of room to play with there.

G-Roy
04-22-2009, 05:10 PM
I'd personally drop down to 1 carb meal every 5-7 days. Poliquin recommends this and it jives with what Palumbo recommends as well. Once you get sub 10% you can start adding in more carbs and even PWO carbs if your workouts justify it.

So I take it that you dont agree with the general guideline that Mauro uses for the anabolic diet? You would favor a meal refeed every 5 - 7 days over a 1-2 day refeed?

Frosty
04-22-2009, 05:20 PM
So I take it that you dont agree with the general guideline that Mauro uses for the anabolic diet? You would favor a meal refeed every 5 - 7 days over a 1-2 day refeed?

YES. Let me put it this way. I never got under 10% until I cut back the refeed to just one single meal once a week. No offense, you're fat and you don't control insulin well, and your glucose uptake probably sucks. Not a dig...I let myself get way too fat using carbs and I'm paying for it now...I've dropped 55 lbs already.

The Anabolic Diet is actually quite old and a lot has been learned from it. For lean guys in the 6-8% range it can be great, but for fat guys it's not a great method.

Poliquin worked with Di Pasquale to modify it, and that's where Poliquin got his low carb diet which he bases the carb amounts off of body fat percentage and training volume. This is newer, better approach.

Frosty
04-22-2009, 05:26 PM
A quick comment. Some may say this is over-complicating diet, but really it's a simple approach once you understand the basics and some details.

Ever see someone learn to squat the first time? Holey shit it's complicated as hell for them. Sit back, chest out, back arched, knees out, push up and back, don't lean forward, etc. But once you learn it, it's simple and you can do it effortlessly (the FORM part, not the lift! lol). Same with all this stuff. It should get to the point where it's easy and effortless.

G-Roy
04-22-2009, 09:30 PM
Do you have a link so I can read up on the modified die Mauro and Charles worked on together? I guess it really boils down to the fact that the Anabolic diet is appealing because the wekends are essentially eat like most slobs do for two days, but it may not be the best approach to lose fat efficiently. I think I may continue to do it with one refeed day and see what happens. I did it two years ago and got down to about 7%.
But Id still like ot read up on the "newer" version

Frosty
04-23-2009, 12:11 AM
I don't know of any links that break it down, sorry. Poliquin's info is in pieces all over the place and it's just what I remember reading. I could always help out since I read from many different places. Or you could just do the AD as mentioned when you got down to 7%....that's quite lean so if obviously worked for ya.

Gothic Muscle
04-23-2009, 08:31 AM
I don't know of any links that break it down, sorry. Poliquin's info is in pieces all over the place and it's just what I remember reading. I could always help out since I read from many different places. Or you could just do the AD as mentioned when you got down to 7%....that's quite lean so if obviously worked for ya.

I've got the Anabolic Solution and found it a very good read!!
Do you know what Poliquin's take on diet is or the general gist of his diet/nutrition philosophy for either fat loss and or gaining as he's no slouch in this area?

Frosty
04-23-2009, 11:52 AM
His diets for fat loss and for muscle gain are almost identical assuming the athlete is lean, just different calories. When not lean it's like the Palumbo Diet. Small difference is Poliquin likes more fish oil.

Gothic Muscle
04-23-2009, 12:11 PM
I'm guessing if his fat loss and muscle gain diet is the same, that would mean that the refeeds would come around that much sooner than once a week, like once every 4 days or so, along the same lines of what I asked yesterday about running Dave's keto diet as a mass gaining diet but with more frequent carb-ups?

Frosty
04-23-2009, 01:06 PM
Every 5th day. If you can do it more frequent and still stay lean you should probably be eating more carbs overall in your diet :)

Gothic Muscle
04-23-2009, 05:32 PM
Any idea as to the quantity of carbs, I can't imagine it would be unlimited for 1 meal, that would be too awesome ;)

As a former fat boy and and with my idb et al I personally couldn't get away with every 4th day, once I'm done cutting I'll reduce the carb up to every 5th day for 1-2 meals of 200-250gms, tiny stomach - my bloat limit is about 150-175 gms worth of carbs. I did try Rob Faigins Natural Hormone Enhancement but found the refeed every 3rd day then every 4th too much, I was turning all doughy lol!

Frosty
04-24-2009, 12:14 AM
PWO carbs and 2 carb meals sounds like a good start. Try it and see what happens and go from there.

Gothic Muscle
04-24-2009, 08:01 AM
Ahhhh pwo carbs, that's one area where I don't agree with the masses, I'm more in line with Dr Dipasquale's thinking on this one that pwo carbs blunt post exercise response to fat burning and hormonal balance! I appreciate the info tho dude, defo gonna try 2 meals every 5th day, I don't think my stomach could handle one huge carb meal, monitor and adjust and see where we go!!

Frosty
04-24-2009, 10:04 AM
Ahhhh pwo carbs, that's one area where I don't agree with the masses, I'm more in line with Dr Dipasquale's thinking on this one that pwo carbs blunt post exercise response to fat burning and hormonal balance! I appreciate the info tho dude, defo gonna try 2 meals every 5th day, I don't think my stomach could handle one huge carb meal, monitor and adjust and see where we go!!

PWO carbs are not going to blunt fat burning. I remember reading how studies have shown that fat burning continues even in the presence of high GI carb intake PWO.

Remember PWO things are a bit different than at other times. The carbs don't get burned for fuel...they go for storage in muscle tissue and liver, so the body continues to burn fat for energy during this time while storing the carbohydrates for future use. Also high GI carbs like maltodextrin, and especially Vitargo (not waxy maize) can be very useful to drive nutrients into the muscle cells like creatine mono, carnitine, BCAAs, and other nutrients that can assist insulin sensitivity like lots of chelated magnesium, chromium polynicotinate, and even B vitamins (biotin especially) if you take a good multi PWO.

Insulin is one of the main signals for protein synthesis. However if you're fat you have to be careful, and if your training volume and rep ranges don't justify it, then I agree skip it. If you're doing 5x5 you're perfectly fine to skip the carbs. If you're doing 10x10 and you're well under 10%, use PWO carbs :)

If you decide to go carbless, I would use 0.44g BCAAs/kg LBM. Use a 4:1:1 ratio of leucine:isoleucine:valine. This will be quite anabolic. You can take half before, half after, or take it all before or even during...it's not terribly important for results when exactly.

carob999
07-12-2009, 05:51 PM
Guys Please read Mauro's books before commenting on his diet. The 5 day low carb --2 day refeed is just a basic template. The 5/2 is actually more for the mass gain approach. Precontest is 5 days low to moderate fat (mainly coming from omega-3 sources) with a refeed day of 150g of carbs(higher for some folks lower for others). Post workout carbs aren't needed to drive amino acids into the muscles (on this type of diet). DR D's diet CAN BE identical to the Palumbo Diet during precontest so to compare an off season recomendation of one diet to a precontest approach of another is ignorant. I'm not trying to be disrespectful but every post I read about the Anabolic Diet talk about it as if the 5/2 split IS the diet. While it can be there is so much more to it than that.

KZ
08-14-2009, 11:18 PM
BUMP

I'm curious why DiPasquales FFA/PRO ratio got lost in the mix here. He recommends 40% protein and 60% fat. Sorry to link to md, but this (http://forums.musculardevelopment.com/showthread.php?t=57549&page=2) looks like a good success story. Also John Berardi, on his Get Shredded Diet, recommended about the same ratio. It seems that when cutting calories high fat can be the way to go. This ratio forces using ffa's and not gluconeogenesis..... a kind of comfortable ketosis, as opposed to always being on the verge and taking extra PRO to compensate.

Thoughts?

Frosty
08-15-2009, 12:20 AM
DiPasquale recommends finding a ratio that works well. He recommends 40-60% depending on what you find to work well. Just don't go below 40%.

KZ
08-16-2009, 12:26 PM
Um, I went to Lyle's keto book.... I see why they do it. It's been shown that excess protein may prevent entering and maintaining ketosis, especially during the first three weeks. The keto book is awesome, everyone should read it.

Gothic Muscle
08-17-2009, 07:43 AM
Um, I went to Lyle's keto book.... I see why they do it. It's been shown that excess protein may prevent entering and maintaining ketosis, especially during the first three weeks. The keto book is awesome, everyone should read it.

Exactly why I dropped my protein from 1.5 to 1-1.25 gms per pound bw as I read that too much protein, especially at the beginning teaches your body to be good at burning protein rather than ffa.

Frosty
08-17-2009, 08:31 PM
I totally agree with people doing high fat for the 2 week adaptation phase. It's not really a time for real fat loss....it's a time for adaptation and high percentage of fat helps with that adaptation. 60-70% for 2 weeks I think is good and it makes it easier to deal with for some people. THEN you can go to a different fat level say around 47% like the Palumbo Diet or whatever you find to work.