clen

[tammyp]

once and for all..do you need to cycle it? take benardyl to keep your receptors from shutting down? i just run it, no cycle, no benadryl. i hear all type of claims...

so once and for all, can we get this straight?

[dvsness]

Lol, everyone has an opinion on this and they all think they're right. For my piece, I trust the word of Matt Cahill the most for this topic. He has said:

'After 28 days of use clen will have a minimal effect on the body at the very best. So use it quick and fast and then take time off from it and all other stimulating compounds.'

<snip>

'Benadryl and ketofin (regardless if it were injected or not) did not improve clens use. It was a theory from about 7 years ago that never really panned out. Because Clen is so specific the body will down regulate the receptors rapidly, you get the max effect for 28 days and then you start losing effectiveness unless you increase dose which will just make the problem worse.'

<snip>

Re: Ketofin

'I have injected quite a bit of it along with taking tons of it orally and it does not improve the use of clen.'

[Lee Penman]

once and for all..do you need to cycle it? take benardyl to keep your receptors from shutting down? i just run it, no cycle, no benadryl. i hear all type of claims...

so once and for all, can we get this straight?
Clen has max effect in first two-three weeks. Benadryl seems to have no valuable effects on its potency. Staying on for longer term would increase the mildly anabolic properties (more so in women). For specific fat burning combining it with T3 appears most effective.

[sassy69]

Clen has max effect in first two-three weeks. Benadryl seems to have no valuable effects on its potency. Staying on for longer term would increase the mildly anabolic properties (more so in women). For specific fat burning combining it with T3 appears most effective.

So does this mean the 2 weeks on / 2 off approach will be able to take advantage of that "first 2 weeks" effect, where you'd consider the 2 weeks off a reset such that the next 2 weeks on is like resetting back to "the first" again?

[GirlyMuscle]

Another once and for all question...

Clen and T3

or ECA stack

Do they hit the same receptors? Could you alternate?

[SallyAnne]

Clen has max effect in first two-three weeks. Benadryl seems to have no valuable effects on its potency. Staying on for longer term would increase the mildly anabolic properties (more so in women). For specific fat burning combining it with T3 appears most effective.

Taking Ketofin would increase the length of it's effectiveness, correct?

[Swiper]

Taking Ketofin would increase the length of it's effectiveness, correct?

Yes.

Clinical observations indicate that beta-adrenergic drugs may increase bronchial reactivity in asthmatics. To find out possible reasons for this phenomenon the beta-adrenergic receptor function of isolated lymphocytes of asthmatic patients treated with clenbuterol alone or with ketotifen and clenbuterol together were studied. The cAMP levels of lymphocytes stimulated by different doses of isoproterenol were measured by radioimmunoassay and have been compared in the groups of healthies, and asthmatic patients after 3-months running of clenbuterol (Spiropent, Sandoz), as well as in the same asthmatics after one-week running of parallel administration of ketotifen and clenbuterol. There was no difference between the beta-adrenergic receptor function in asthmatic patients treated with clenbuterol alone vs. untreated healthies. Applying ketotifen and clenbuterol together the beta-adrenergic receptor function increased compared to the values obtained after application of clenbuterol alone (intraindividual-control) as well as vs. the group of healthies (control). Data presented support the view that therapeutic doses of selective beta 2-agonists do not lead to damage of the beta-adrenoceptor function. The improvement of receptor function after parallel administration of clenbuterol and ketotifen may be a consequence of the participation of ketotifen in the control of beta-adrenergic receptor system. Thus it seems unlikely that down-regulation of beta-adrenergic receptors is responsible for the beta-agonist induced bronchial hyperreactivity. That's why TXB-2 levels in the plasma of the same asthmatic patients and healthy volunteers were determined by RIA.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)
PMID: 1964319 [PubMed - indexed for MED
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1964319?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...777&query_hl=6
Effects of ketotifen on the responsiveness of peripheral blood lymphocyte beta-adrenergic receptors.
"The effects of ketotifen therapy on the responsiveness of lymphocyte beta-adrenergic receptors was evaluated by measuring cyclic AMP elevations caused by isoproterenol [a beta2-agonist] in cells isolated from patients treated with ketotifen for more than 1 year. Binding of 3H-dihydroalprenolol to beta-receptors was also evaluated. The isoproterenol-induced rise in cyclic AMP relative to each individual's baseline level was greater in patients on current ketotifen therapy than in other asthmatic patients or non-asthmatic subjects. Ketotifen therapy increased the apparent equilibrium dissociation constant for specific 3H-dihydroalprenolol binding to the receptors. Receptor numbers in symptomatic asthma patients on standard drug therapy were decreased. The results indicate that long term ketotifen therapy is associated with increased responsiveness of beta-receptors to stimulation by catecholamines and that this alteration may involve changes in the receptors themselves, their membrane environment, adenylate cyclase or components of the adenylate cyclase coupling system."



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...319&query_hl=2
Effects of ketotifen and clenbuterol on beta-adrenergic receptor functions of lymphocytes
"Applying ketotifen and clenbuterol together the beta-adrenergic receptor function increased compared to the values obtained after application of clenbuterol alone (intraindividual-control) as well as vs. the group of healthies (control). Data presented support the view that therapeutic doses of selective beta 2-agonists do not lead to damage of the beta-adrenoceptor function. The improvement of receptor function after parallel administration of clenbuterol and ketotifen may be a consequence of the participation of ketotifen in the control of beta-adrenergic receptor system."


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...180&query_hl=6
Effects... of ketotifen on beta 2 adrenergic receptor regulation in intact human lymphocytes
"KET alone also induced an up-regulation of cell surface beta adrenergic receptors."



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...002&query_hl=6
[Bronchial adrenergic receptors and asthma. Tachyphylaxis and its prevention]
(Tachyphylaxis is rapidly diminishing response to successive doses of a drug, rendering it less effective)
"The majority of the clinical studies in healthy volunteers have shown that chronic inhalation or oral intake of sympathomimetics causes tachyphylaxis of the bronchial beta adrenergic receptors... Several well controlled studies have however shown that chronic administration of sympathomimetics results in a significantly decreased sensitivity of the bronchial beta adrenergic receptor... Corticosteroids, given orally or parenterally, restore the sensitivity of the beta adrenergic receptors. In a double blind, placebo controlled study in healthy subjects we have observed that ketotifen prevents the development of a tachyphylaxis of the bronchial beta adrenergic receptor during prolonged treatment with inhaled sympathomimetics."

[Allifit]

Lol, everyone has an opinion on this and they all think they're right. For my piece, I trust the word of Matt Cahill the most for this topic. He has said:

'After 28 days of use clen will have a minimal effect on the body at the very best. So use it quick and fast and then take time off from it and all other stimulating compounds.''

Spot on.

[Allifit]

Another once and for all question...

Clen and T3

or ECA stack

Do they hit the same receptors? Could you alternate?
I definitely wanna hear the answer to this.....

[dvsness]

Another once and for all question...

Clen and T3

or ECA stack

Do they hit the same receptors?

Yes. Clen is a beta 3 antagonist but ephedrine covers beta 1, 2 and 3, since it isn't as site specific. You'll exhaust your receptors and end up getting frustrated with the lack of results.


Could you alternate?

If you want to punish your CNS and heart.

[GirlyMuscle]

I've used ECA stacks before. I don't have a problem with stims.

Doesn't the constant use of clen also exhaust the receptors it's hits?

[dvsness]

I've used ECA stacks before. I don't have a problem with stims.

Doesn't the constant use of clen also exhaust the receptors it's hits?

Yes. Clen exhausts them at a faster rate due to site specificness.

I'm not saying you have a problem with stims; I'm saying that it is a better idea to take time off of them (cycle off stims completely) than to just trade one for another.

[militantmuscle]

I spoke about this in the chem forum: http://forums.rxmuscle.com/showthread.php?t=6136

Why not do both?

You can cycle clen 2 days on 2 days off to slow down the adaptive down-regulating response of the beta-2 receptors.

For more information you can go to the thread I posted and read my posts, I posted an interesting article on beta receptors, clebuterol and ephedrine and their mechanics. After getting the facts, choose for yourself what kind of protocol you want to use based on what you know, and your tolerance.

[militantmuscle]

Here is a client I used ALR's method of cycling clen/t3 +EC with.

Oh and Sassy, this is also the athlete I mentioned that I have using creatine monohydate everyday.

He is 5 weeks out in this picture.


12458

[GirlyMuscle]

Yes. Clen exhausts them at a faster rate due to site specificness.

I'm not saying you have a problem with stims; I'm saying that it is a better idea to take time off of them (cycle off stims completely) than to just trade one for another.I haven't been on any stims in over a year. I was just wondering for a 20 week contest prep. Then I'll go off again until next year. I just want the most out of this prep time.

[Lee Penman]

Another once and for all question...

Clen and T3

or ECA stack

Do they hit the same receptors? Could you alternate?
For a contest prep regime I would stick with the clen and T3.
As for alternating clen with ECA I don't think it's a good thing in terms of overstimilating the CNS, however many people do it.
All stimulants lose their effectiveness if used for too long, you will feel more of an effect from them if you reserve their use for the time they are needed most.

[sassy69]

For a contest prep regime I would stick with the clen and T3.
As for alternating clen with ECA I don't think it's a good thing in terms of overstimilating the CNS, however many people do it.
All stimulants lose their effectiveness if used for too long, you will feel more of an effect from them if you reserve their use for the time they are needed most.

This is the basis for the idea of switching between the two - 2 weeks on clen / 2 weeks on eca, repeat.

Functionally how would you feel being all amped up for 2 weeks w/ clen as your stim, and then nothing on the off 2 weeks? (Assuming you use the 2 weeks on / 2 off approach). Or would you recommend a non-ECA stim for the off 2 weeks? E.g. just coffee, or a CA instead of ECA, or some other non-E stim?

[tammyp]

i always run clen w/o a break ..increasing as i go about 8 weeks out. what is the most effective way to get the MOST out of a clen cycle?

i prefer to NOT use t3 if i dont have to. i feel it flattens me out bigtime.

[Lee Penman]

I agree with Tammy....I do not cycle clen...about 8 weeks out I start it very very slowly & gradualy increase my dosages...Worked EXCELLENT for me...Peeps in gym could not believe how FAST I dropped fat.....Plus I do not like to restart it and get shakey all over again...just my experience.
It's strange...clen seems to work so differently for so many people. Some feel the most fat loss in two weeks then a mild stimulant effect. Others see continued fat loss with use going as far as 16 weeks.
Once again it is down to individual trial and error.