FemChem Q&A with Leigh Penman

[Sistersteel]

Leigh and myself have had some very interesting exchanges in the past few days. We've decided that a Q&A thread, exclusive to our Fem Chem forum was long overdue. So here it is ladies.

Through this collaboration of efforts between Leigh and myself, we aim at addressing all concerns with medically supported arguments, as well as first hand experience in a thread that encompasses the most extensively researched and thoroughly discussed topics on female AAS usage that the online bodybuilding community has ever seen.


SS

[Sistersteel]

I would like to propose a first discussion that is aimed at establishing a link between endometriosis and estrogen dominance with an expectancy to lead to highlighting the importance of my previously supported argument on the benefits of running AIs while on aromatizing compounds. I am proposing a case study that will examine the interplay of the different variables pertaining to this subject, in an effort to provide you ladies with a better understanding of the risks involved in excess estrogen production. Our primary focus will be a more thorough examination of the more complex underlying issues that result from such an excess if left untreated and hopefully everyone’s contributions will offer new variables and questions for further research and discussion.
Leigh, Tat, ladies, let’s hear it.



SS

[Sistersteel]

First, I would like to list the symptoms women experience as a result of hormonal imbalances and high estrogen overload. However, in many cases we are faced with the problem of an estrogen overload going undetected due to the fact that most of the following symptoms are a very common occurrence in most women. But at least you girls KNOW what to look for.

PMS, Migraines, Mood Swings, Cramps, Uterine Fibroids, Depression, Unexplained Weight Gain, Fatigue, Osteoporosis, Insomnia, Allergies, Memory Loss, Acne, Hot Flashes, Thinning Hair, Irregular Periods, Breat tenderness, miscarriage, low sex drive, high blood pressure, facial hair, inlfammation......these are the ones that presently come to mind. Please feel free to add any symptoms I may have omitted.

Post menopausal ladies, please lend me your eyes, ears and your undivided attention. This might come as a shock to most of you, but
follow me here for a moment please.

Menopause is often thought of as a time of declining estrogen, correct?

BUT it is actually common for women to experience surges of abnormally high estrogen levels in the menopausal years as well as earlier in life.
This misconception has led many millions of women to engage in HRT to restore lost estrogen, in an effort to address the list of conditions I posted above.

This additional estrogen may only worsen problems and possible set the stage for even bigger, and possibly fatal issues.


Through this observation, we conclude that an estrogen overload can be the problem of pre and post menopausal women alike. So no one need feel excluded from this discussion!

Is everyone following me thus far? Would anyone like to propose or suggest something before I proceed?

SS

[~gymdiva~]

following you loud and clear as you have just described my entire 2008...

[Sistersteel]

following you loud and clear as you have just described my entire 2008...


Precisely the type of feedback I was looking for! An actual live specimen!
lol

Your experience can potentially benefit this discussion gymdiva! Care to elaborate on what symptoms you were experiencing and the degree of discomfort you experienced as a result? Did you first notice the problem pre or post cycle? pre or post comp? both phases perhaps?

Did you seek medical advice at the time? Did the symptoms subside after a while?

Please shed some light on your experience.

SS

[Carolyn Bryant]

Well, I live the life so I'm going to be all ears for this one.

[Sistersteel]

Well, I live the life so I'm going to be all ears for this one.

Hey mama! Glad you could drop by. I know you mentioned dealing with endometriosis in another thread, if my memory serves me correctly. I would love it if you could share the symptoms you've experienced with me. I would also like to hear your opinion on whether or not bodybuilding has contributed to this ailment. Or was it a preexisting condition? Do you think bodybuilding has in any way exacerbated the symptoms you've been unfortunate to have had to deal with?

SS

[~gymdiva~]

post cycle and post comp since they came together...I was actually ok in terms of symptoms for a while, however, I was having no monthly cycle...approximately 14mo after the last time I remembered having one it kicked in again...seemed ok for a while but then it just went haywire...terrible pms symptoms, terrible cramping...one month I thought I was certifiable b/c I went from one mood to another so fast I made my coworkers' heads spin...


now over time it's evened out some...the pms symptoms haven't but the actual flow time has...like now for instance! hahaha...I just started up and I had the now common 7-8lb water gain, sweats/chills, some mood changes about 4ish days out...then all day yesterday I had the worst headache that no amount of drugs could take away, and then today I was nauseous...but as it actually got going I have no cramps...and this is what it's turned into...actual cycle, not so bad-events leading up to it, slightly nightmare-ish...


now, about seeking help...I did try seeing my gyn in january...wish I still had access to all of this on MD b/c I posted about it behind the scenes but I really thought something else must have been going on since it had been so long since I had competed and/or taken anything beyond 5mg of var...well about 10yrs ago I had experienced some pains and it was finally set as a dual diagnosis of IBS and endometriosis...now I was without insurance so no endoscopy was performed to confirm the endo...I was put on a different kind of BC and changed my diet a little and the pain seemed to go away...I had just turned 21 and nowhere close to considering competing so the BC didn't bother me...


well somewhere along the lines a few years later I came off the BC, mainly b/c I was tired of paying for something I wasn't using (ie, I wasn't gettin' any!) and since I was still sans insurance it was $60/mo I could save...well I came off of it and immediately dropped 10lbs...but guess what, none of those old symptoms came back...no pains, no weird cycles, no heavy bleeding...I thought well, maybe it's b/c I'm older now (think I was 25 or 26)...


so back to the january visit...well the doc and nurse practitioner I see diagnosed me with endo again and immediately was like, you need to be on BC...I told them I didn't want to be on BC and I gotta tell you, I was not treated with the warmest of responses...I did ask why not do an endo to confirm the diagnosis since I had insurance and they said it wasn't needed and yeah they could clean it up but that it'd come back without being on some kind of BC therapy...so I tried asking about something along the lines of low dose nolva to keep estrogen levels down and the doc goes, um, that's used for breast cancer patients...YES I know that! but guess what, I successfully was given a skin cancer treatment for plantar's warts on my feet once so clearly drugs can be used in criss-crossing manners...

now, I mainly wanted an explanation about why something like that isn't plausible...or an answer on whether it had even been looked at by any study anywhere...but nope, shut out cold...and forget anything like a low dose of test! nope, I needed a generic version of seasonale b/c it'd bring me all the same symptoms I already had plus weight gain that may or may not work in six months...um, no thank you...


now one thing I found interesting in all of this was that when I had an ultrasound done it was discovered I had a titled uterus...why is that important? well b/c some of the symptoms of that mimic endo...and I guess I got a little ill that they were so ready to throw drugs at it that I clearly stated I did not want when it could just simply be my anatomy...


I do not know exact numbers on blood work unfortunately but I do remember my doc telling me once that should I not want babies, well, I better be on something and have him double bag it ;)

[Carolyn Bryant]

The info doctors have at their disposal is shaddy in my humble opinion. I asked one of the OB-GYNs at work to help explain why testosterone is so taboo for women and all she could say was good point. She really didn't know. She believes it could help. But she also said too much testosterone sets your body up to rot. I take Danazol. It's not for everyone and it is not high on the doctor's list. But it has its benefits for bodybuilders. Many doctors that I asked about it during my research had either not heard of it or had not prescribed it in years.

Are you familiar with it, SS? What do you think of it?

[Carolyn Bryant]

I was born with hirstuism. At that time they told my mom that hairy little girls were prone to reproductive disturbances. I started menses at 9 or 10. Went from no cup to a B cup. Hips and booty like a grown woman. By 12 all hell broke lose during mentrual time, despite being an athlete. I had a laporoscopy at 26 that seemed to help for a few years. Then I got on BC till I started bodybuilding at 33. It helped me because I had fewer periods. I ditched the birth control and switched to Primobolan then tried Yaz ( I was on BCs for the 07 Nats in the best condition of my life) now Danazol. I blew up like a can of biscuts when I came off that. I didn't talk to my doctor when I did, but still I don't recall her telling me I would need an anti-estro. 10mg of Tamoxifen is doing the trick. I feel for ya Gymdiva. But I never had anything more than bad periods and severe clotting.

[Carolyn Bryant]

I'm slow reading your post Gymdiva. I heard the same thing. I have a tilted uterus. My doctor suggested I have a baby after my laproscopy. I have a dear client who has 3 kids and that didn't help at all. She is now considering yanking dat shyt out but mainly because uterine cancer runs in her family.

[~gymdiva~]

I asked about removal, too, and they said absolutely not, not at 31...I have no interest in kids so I wasn't too worried about that issue...but I looked at it as more of a last ditch thing...although after they described the whole "suppressive therapy" via BC I was like hmmm, yeah all my symptoms now plus weight gain? surgery sounds so much simpler...



oh wait I did think of one kinda funny way to shut a doc up...he was doing that whole, well, I did a tubal on a woman who was x-age and she swore she never wanted kids and then 6mo later she's back hoping it can be reversed b/c she'd met someone...well that was met with me saying the following. "I've always felt if something happened and couldn't have kids of mine own that I would adopt...but I was engaged once to a guy with two kids and have experienced the feeling of having those kids taken out of my life w/o my permission so um, I'm good on the kids thing, but thanks"

[Sistersteel]

post cycle and post comp since they came together...I was actually ok in terms of symptoms for a while, however, I was having no monthly cycle...approximately 14mo after the last time I remembered having one it kicked in again...seemed ok for a while but then it just went haywire...terrible pms symptoms, terrible cramping...one month I thought I was certifiable b/c I went from one mood to another so fast I made my coworkers' heads spin...


now over time it's evened out some...the pms symptoms haven't but the actual flow time has...like now for instance! hahaha...I just started up and I had the now common 7-8lb water gain, sweats/chills, some mood changes about 4ish days out...then all day yesterday I had the worst headache that no amount of drugs could take away, and then today I was nauseous...but as it actually got going I have no cramps...and this is what it's turned into...actual cycle, not so bad-events leading up to it, slightly nightmare-ish...


now, about seeking help...I did try seeing my gyn in january...wish I still had access to all of this on MD b/c I posted about it behind the scenes but I really thought something else must have been going on since it had been so long since I had competed and/or taken anything beyond 5mg of var...well about 10yrs ago I had experienced some pains and it was finally set as a dual diagnosis of IBS and endometriosis...now I was without insurance so no endoscopy was performed to confirm the endo...I was put on a different kind of BC and changed my diet a little and the pain seemed to go away...I had just turned 21 and nowhere close to considering competing so the BC didn't bother me...


well somewhere along the lines a few years later I came off the BC, mainly b/c I was tired of paying for something I wasn't using (ie, I wasn't gettin' any!) and since I was still sans insurance it was $60/mo I could save...well I came off of it and immediately dropped 10lbs...but guess what, none of those old symptoms came back...no pains, no weird cycles, no heavy bleeding...I thought well, maybe it's b/c I'm older now (think I was 25 or 26)...


so back to the january visit...well the doc and nurse practitioner I see diagnosed me with endo again and immediately was like, you need to be on BC...I told them I didn't want to be on BC and I gotta tell you, I was not treated with the warmest of responses...I did ask why not do an endo to confirm the diagnosis since I had insurance and they said it wasn't needed and yeah they could clean it up but that it'd come back without being on some kind of BC therapy...so I tried asking about something along the lines of low dose nolva to keep estrogen levels down and the doc goes, um, that's used for breast cancer patients...YES I know that! but guess what, I successfully was given a skin cancer treatment for plantar's warts on my feet once so clearly drugs can be used in criss-crossing manners...

now, I mainly wanted an explanation about why something like that isn't plausible...or an answer on whether it had even been looked at by any study anywhere...but nope, shut out cold...and forget anything like a low dose of test! nope, I needed a generic version of seasonale b/c it'd bring me all the same symptoms I already had plus weight gain that may or may not work in six months...um, no thank you...


now one thing I found interesting in all of this was that when I had an ultrasound done it was discovered I had a titled uterus...why is that important? well b/c some of the symptoms of that mimic endo...and I guess I got a little ill that they were so ready to throw drugs at it that I clearly stated I did not want when it could just simply be my anatomy...


I do not know exact numbers on blood work unfortunately but I do remember my doc telling me once that should I not want babies, well, I better be on something and have him double bag it ;)



Traditional treatment of endo usually involves surgery. However, hormonal manipulation is a far more common form of therapy that attempts to mimic either menopause or pregnancy which can often provide relief of symptoms. Certain drugs work by creating a low- estrogen menopause-like environment in which the endo becomes dormant. Similarly, administration of continuous estrogen and progesterone with BC pills to mimic pregnancy may relieve symptoms. This is quite an effective treatment for many women.

Now granted you felt your symptoms alleviated once you discontinued the use of the BC. But, unfortunately, the discomfort and pain would have returned rather quickly under normal circumstances. In your case, symptoms were probably lying dormant and manifested themselves differently due to the various hormonal changes you had undergone as a result of your AAS use. So I see the logic in your recent diagnosis with endo considering this was an already preexisting condition. And as for your suggestion to use Nolva as a remedy, well that was a bad idea. Although Nolva reduces the risk of breast cancer, it actually increases the possibility of developing endo cancer. Thank God you made no mention of test. Lol!

The one thing that concerns me is your retroverted uterus. A titled uterus is not necessarily anatomical. Possibly genetic, but highly unlikely in your case given your history. An abdominal ultrasound and pelvic exam should have diagnosed the condition. Did you get a rectovaginal exam as well to rule out the possibility of a pelvic tumor? A uterus can tilt as a result of endo… among other causes including pregnancy, menopause and pelvic inflammatory disease etc. But my point is, the similarity in symptoms between endo and a retro uterus is not a valid reason to dismiss this issue as genetic without getting a second opinion. This condition can have dangerous consequences on your reproductive organs and overall health.

That was an excellent contribution to this discussion, thank you diva!

SS

[Sistersteel]

The info doctors have at their disposal is shaddy in my humble opinion. I asked one of the OB-GYNs at work to help explain why testosterone is so taboo for women and all she could say was good point. She really didn't know. She believes it could help. But she also said too much testosterone sets your body up to rot. I take Danazol. It's not for everyone and it is not high on the doctor's list. But it has its benefits for bodybuilders. Many doctors that I asked about it during my research had either not heard of it or had not prescribed it in years.

Are you familiar with it, SS? What do you think of it?

Danazol is a derivative of a synthetic analog of testosterone. Most doctors are not familiar with the drug because it was discontinued and replaced by GnRH agonists as a more suitable form of therapy. Reason being that despite the efficacy of the drug for treating endo, its use was limited by masculinizing sides that were a result of an increase in androgens. Did you know that Danazol actually caused hirsutism? You mentioned being born with it, so I can imagine the condition being exacerbated tenfold.

The primary use of Danazol is as an AI, believe it or not. It slows down the natural production of testosterone and is used by bodybuilders to prevent the aromatization of certain hormones.

Notice ladies how your experiences and contributions have already begun to link us back to my initial post where I proposed this topic as a first discussion. We are already establishing a pattern here as to why AIs are important and necessary to include as part of any cycle/hormonal therapy that includes aromatizing compounds like test.

SS

[~gymdiva~]

I'll write more when I get on the computer (currently on the phone) but I was off BC for a solid two years if not longer before I ever touched anything related to aas and never once did I have anything irregular...I think part of what also bothered me was looking back on it that earlier round when I was 20-21 a lot of my stuff seemed to be more GI related and now that I eat gluten free and have eliminated some other stuff that pain issue has all but disappeared...and since no lap was ever done (and they refused to do one even at my request b/c I wanted confirmation) I have never been convinced that it's 100% endo...as for the tilting for a loooong while I've noticed (oy, tmi alert) that tampons went in funny but never in the 15yrs of seeing a gyn has anyone said anything to me...I just figured I must be imagining it...but the ultrasound did show it was curved and apparently one ovary is hiding behind it instead of being to the side...and Carolyn mentioned something I was told, too, which was having a kid may straighten it but um, I'm not having a kid to find out!

[~gymdiva~]

omg! I had this awesome followup going and I just lost it! dammit! ok, i'll come back later and address the nolva...I didn't suggest it to the doc but rather was trying to wrap my head around something and well, he didn't help...grrr...

[Lee Penman]

This whole section serves as evidence that FBB are a lot more educated when it comes to hormone manipulation than most MD's who see no viable use for drugs such as Nolvadex unless you have breast cancer or a family history of it. A thread like this is a valuable source of information and discussion for women who have become frustrated by traditional doctors responses.

[Sistersteel]

I am getting ready to step this discussion up a notch by throwing in another variable. I am waiting for other ladies to respond with their thoughts before I proceed.

[~gymdiva~]

ok so I'll try to retype what I was on my phone earlier...the nolva thing was me asking him why the immediate answer was always BC? the former ex phys major in me was trying to wrap my thoughts around the difference b/w using BC and using an anti-e (nolva just always pops to mind first) in lowering/shutting off estrogen production...and he gave me no answer other than, it's only used for cancer...yes I am aware of that, I'm asking please explain why it's not looked at, or is it? or is it studied?

all I was looking for was anything from a chemical explanation to even something as simple, there's not enough research and I'm not comfortable giving it to my patients...but I didn't get any of that...and that's where I got very frustrated...well, more frustrated b/c I have never in my life had such a bad doctor's visit...I now know and understand why some women never talk to their docs about things for fear of not being heard...

[sassy69]

Just to back up the MD discussion a little more, when I asked my OBGYN about nolvadex back in 2000, related to reducing estrogen for comeptition, all he said was the usual that the only research available is related to post-menopausal breast cancer patients and why not just stop taking my birth control?

So yea, the general sense I got was "no clue".

[tammyp]

i have low estrogen and havent has a natural period in at least 8 years. i was on the pill to get it back briefly, but hated being on it. this was when i was natural.

i had and still do, bad skin issues, night sweats and vaginal dryness. my ob/gyn said my skin was thin like a menopausal woman at my last pap, about 4 years ago. am i in menopause? im 38, no kids.

[Carolyn Bryant]

GymDiva, I find it so strange that the sentiment of most doctors is all over the gotdayum country. I have lived in three states where I have had an OB-GYN on speed dial. Each time I have heard that a woman CANNOT make a choice to have a hysterectomy if she is under a certain age. They will do it if your endo is life threatening. I think there out to be a law against that.

My doctor denied my request to write a script for Nolvedex quoting pretty much the same thing. I can say for me anti-estros by themselves did nothing to stop menses. Low bodyfat or athleticsm either. I'm 46. Thought things would get better with old age. HELL NAW. They got worse. I can grow a full goatee now.

Yes, SS, the hair went nuts with the Danazol. But like I said about the Halotestin when you are desperate you will consider most anything. Hmmm, do I want hair or fat and cellulite?....

I have been very disappointed that more research has not been done about estro dominance. They have figured out how to cure prostate cancer while women's health seems to be on the backburner.

[Carolyn Bryant]

I am getting ready to step this discussion up a notch by throwing in another variable. I am waiting for other ladies to respond with their thoughts before I proceed.

Oh Boy. Please tell me that you're going to say sex three times a day is all we really need. More oxytocin being released....

[~gymdiva~]

GymDiva, I find it so strange that the sentiment of most doctors is all over the gotdayum country. I have lived in three states where I have had an OB-GYN on speed dial. Each time I have heard that a woman CANNOT make a choice to have a hysterectomy if she is under a certain age. They will do it if your endo is life threatening. I think there out to be a law against that.

My doctor denied my request to write a script for Nolvedex quoting pretty much the same thing. I can say for me anti-estros by themselves did nothing to stop menses. Low bodyfat or athleticsm either. I'm 46. Thought things would get better with old age. HELL NAW. They got worse. I can grow a full goatee now.

Yes, SS, the hair went nuts with the Danazol. But like I said about the Halotestin when you are desperate you will consider most anything. Hmmm, do I want hair or fat and cellulite?....

I have been very disappointed that more research has not been done about estro dominance. They have figured out how to cure prostate cancer while women's health seems to be on the backburner.

yeah it truly amazes me how you can come in educated on the issues that may or may not be happening and know options and repercussions, good and bad, to them and yet they go, oh no you can only do x or y and forget about z b/c you're "young"...well did anyone ever stop to think that maybe option z would be best in the long term? is anyone bothering to do research on it? it made me mad I wasn't more book smart! :mad:

[Sistersteel]

i have low estrogen and havent has a natural period in at least 8 years. i was on the pill to get it back briefly, but hated being on it. this was when i was natural.

i had and still do, bad skin issues, night sweats and vaginal dryness. my ob/gyn said my skin was thin like a menopausal woman at my last pap, about 4 years ago. am i in menopause? im 38, no kids.


What brought about the cessation of your periods? Was it mother nature? or gear induced?

[Lee Penman]

What brought about the cessation of your periods? Was it mother nature? or gear induced?
Good point! How does gear influence the menstrual cycle? Some have no interruption - even on low dose test - others lose their period with Anavar.
Question really is, do women really care about losing their period?
Also, can women take charge of mother nature in this respect with AAS use?

[tammyp]

What brought about the cessation of your periods? Was it mother nature? or gear induced?

i was nattie at the time, but competing/

[Sistersteel]

Sorry for the delayed response. I been trying to keep up with the board in the middle of a meet and a funeral this weekend.


Tammy, did your periods just disappear one fine day or did you start missing them more frequently first?

[tammyp]

i was never really regular once i went of the pill at 26.

sorry about your loss SS.

[Sistersteel]

And how long before no periods at all..? You said you were 38 and had not had a period in at least 8 years. I'm assuming a couple of years later you stopped mensing altogether?


Thanks you Tammy for the condolences.

SS

[Krcz]

i was never really regular once i went of the pill at 26.

sorry about your loss SS.

Has this affected your bone health?
I lost my period about a year ago.It was due to an extreme loss of weight. I am now at a healthy weight, bf higher, but no period yet.

Every blood test I have had showed that my estrogen levels were always low, I refused to take the pill though, the only thing that went up was my testosterone, which wasn't supposed to.

(I'm sorry if is difficult to understand what I wrote, English is not my first language)

[janelleg]

Leigh, do you know if you can take nolv year round or do you have to cycle it? I have a girlfriend that takes it year round but I don't think it is good for her.

[Lee Penman]

Leigh, do you know if you can take nolv year round or do you have to cycle it? I have a girlfriend that takes it year round but I don't think it is good for her.
The only time year round Nolvadex use would be appropriate is in the treatment of breast cancer. For your friend, you are right, it is not good for her. She risks osteoporosis, skin aging, hair loss and other symptoms related to low estrogen. Plus remember, some estrogen is needed for muscle growth and to maintain sex drive.

[janelleg]

Thanks. I will tell her. Also, can clen be cycled on your off-season or should you only use it during contest prep?

[RealLilSwole]

What is the normal dose of gh per day most pro competitors take?

[Sistersteel]

What is the normal dose of gh per day most pro competitors take?

How can anyone answer that question, lilSwole. Dosing is a very individual thing and can vary significantly from one individual to the next. It can be dependent on a number of factors such as physiological response, compound availability, cost...etc.

A more logical question would be "what is the standard dosage of GH predominantly used by most women"..or even "at what minimal dosages can one expect to reap the benefits of GH use"....

[sassy69]

Thanks. I will tell her. Also, can clen be cycled on your off-season or should you only use it during contest prep?

I"m not Leigh, but my opinion is that you only cycle something for a purpose and not to make it your "maintenance" program. The only purpose isn't just contest prep - any reason you'd want to make a targeted effort to drop bodyfat would be ok. "Off season" depends on what "off season" means for you. If its not a bulking phase and you aren't necessarily planning to compete or go on a targetted cut for some purpose in the near future (e.g. next 6 months), then you might have a reason to want to use clen or other OTC thermo. Obviously your diet would dictate whatever you are trying to accomplish and the supp would just work in conjunction w/ your program & goal.

Just like everything else, even OTC thermos, you'd want to cycle off for a while. And also give consideration to other stresses you might be planning to put your body thru -e.g. if you are planning to compete again in the next 6 months or put your body thru a very targeted program towards a goal you'd probably want to give your body a break and let it find homestasis before bombing it w/ more artificial stimulation. Definitely think at least in the medium term when you are looking to run cycles of this or that, because you never reach an "end state" w/ your body - its always an ongoing cycle w/ different phases - so plan appropriately so you can support the different phases (i.e. give your body down time so it can respond better in the up time).

[RealLilSwole]

How can anyone answer that question, lilSwole. Dosing is a very individual thing and can vary significantly from one individual to the next. It can be dependent on a number of factors such as physiological response, compound availability, cost...etc.

A more logical question would be "what is the standard dosage of GH predominantly used by most women"..or even "at what minimal dosages can one expect to reap the benefits of GH use"....

Ok...bad choice of words lol! Generally speaking.....how much does the average pro take in your opinion? I know what the average person takes like me.....around 2 per day.....but.....I think the bigger pro's prob take a little more.

I would never take more than 2 to 3. I don't think my hands could handle much more. They get very tight and stiff when I am on.

Sorry if it sounded like a stupid question...but on one of the other boards, there was a chick on there that stated she was friends with a top pro and that her friend was running 1500mg of test per week.

I have a male friend that is getting ready for a show and believe it or not...he is taking 24 iu per day! GOOD GRIEF! lol

[Lee Penman]

Thanks. I will tell her. Also, can clen be cycled on your off-season or should you only use it during contest prep?
You can cycle clen off-season if you choose to, no worries

[Sistersteel]

[quote=RealLilSwole;560461]Ok...bad choice of words lol! Generally speaking.....how much does the average pro take in your opinion? I know what the average person takes like me.....around 2 per day.....but.....I think the bigger pro's prob take a little more.

LilSwole,
The most I've known a pro FBB to take was 4IU/day. But, I'm sure there are some who have run far more. I personally have never run it higher than 2IUs and I prefer every other day dosing.


I would never take more than 2 to 3. I don't think my hands could handle much more. They get very tight and stiff when I am on. The water retention should subside a few weeks in. Are you running it in the offseason or just to prep?


Sorry if it sounded like a stupid question...but on one of the other boards, there was a chick on there that stated she was friends with a top pro and that her friend was running 1500mg of test per week. Holy shit. You have GOT to tell me what board that is so that we can join efforts in shutting it down...or shooting whoever gave that poor woman that kind of advice. I can guarantee you that woman will be competing as a superheavy male by the time she's done with that cycle. lol


I have a male friend that is getting ready for a show and believe it or not...he is taking 24 iu per day! GOOD GRIEF! lol24IUs/day, would be 720IUs/month....each kit is usually 100IU and if he is lucky and getting a REALLY good deal on it, then it's probably costing him $200/kit. So that's over $!500/month in growth alone.

So that would make your friend either independently wealthy....or....just full of shit. lol

24IUs a day is plain stupid really. And if he really is trying to impress you then run for the hills LilSwole! Run for the Hills and don't look back!

[RealLilSwole]

[quote]

LilSwole,
The most I've known a pro FBB to take was 4IU/day. But, I'm sure there are some who have run far more. I personally have never run it higher than 2IUs and I prefer every other day dosing.
The water retention should subside a few weeks in. Are you running it in the offseason or just to prep?
Holy shit. You have GOT to tell me what board that is so that we can join efforts in shutting it down...or shooting whoever gave that poor woman that kind of advice. I can guarantee you that woman will be competing as a superheavy male by the time she's done with that cycle. lol

24IUs/day, would be 720IUs/month....each kit is usually 100IU and if he is lucky and getting a REALLY good deal on it, then it's probably costing him $200/kit. So that's over $!500/month in growth alone.

So that would make your friend either independently wealthy....or....just full of shit. lol

24IUs a day is plain stupid really. And if he really is trying to impress you then run for the hills LilSwole! Run for the Hills and don't look back!


OH I believe him. He only paying 140 per kit. I agree 24 is crazy but he thinks that is what he needs. I say go for it. LOL! No for the other forum...my fiance read that......I will have to ask him what one it was.

I plan to run the gh for the whole year. What do you think the benefit to running it EOD is? I am a cheap scate and always willing to spend less. LOL!

[janelleg]

You can cycle clen off-season if you choose to, no worries

Okay, thanks!

[Sistersteel]

[quote=Sistersteel;561132]


OH I believe him. He only paying 140 per kit. I agree 24 is crazy but he thinks that is what he needs. I say go for it. LOL! No for the other forum...my fiance read that......I will have to ask him what one it was.

I plan to run the gh for the whole year. What do you think the benefit to running it EOD is? I am a cheap scate and always willing to spend less. LOL!

$140/ kit..damn...hey its always nice to have friends who can get deals like that. Granted its legit shit of course. :)

Actually, running GH every other day is just a cost effective way of being able to run it longer with as expensive as it is and with as long as you need to run it in order to reap any benefit at all from it. You could even run it 5 days on and 2 days off if you prefer.

[Tatyana]

[quote=Sistersteel;561132]


OH I believe him. He only paying 140 per kit. I agree 24 is crazy but he thinks that is what he needs. I say go for it. LOL! No for the other forum...my fiance read that......I will have to ask him what one it was.

I plan to run the gh for the whole year. What do you think the benefit to running it EOD is? I am a cheap scate and always willing to spend less. LOL!

Superhuman radio has some fantastic podcasts on the whole peptide debate, which includes the quality coming out of China.

I think if it is good quality GH, you really don't need to take 24 IU/day.

I would be worried about the symptoms of acromegaly if it was legitimate GH.

[Sistersteel]

[quote=RealLilSwole;561181]

Superhuman radio has some fantastic podcasts on the whole peptide debate, which includes the quality coming out of China.

I think if it is good quality GH, you really don't need to take 24 IU/day.

I would be worried about the symptoms of acromegaly if it was legitimate GH.

I personally know someone who has been diagnosed with just that due to excessive use of GH.

[RealLilSwole]

YEah I have had some patients at the hosptial with that problem....of course by a tumor. Not a good think at all.

[axioma]

I would really like to see this thread get back on track with the AI discussion. I have been reading and really learning. I train my wife, who is a state champ and wants to take masters as far as she can. I always err on the side of very cautious, however I want to be able to help her with whatever I can. She is a beast regarding workout and diets strict when called upon, so no problems there. I have found lots of hypothetical precontest compounds with maybe, soso dosages, however the AI seems like it would really have health benefits outside contest prep. Please resurrect this thread.

[axioma]

[quote=RealLilSwole;561181]

Superhuman radio has some fantastic podcasts on the whole peptide debate, which includes the quality coming out of China.

I think if it is good quality GH, you really don't need to take 24 IU/day.

I would be worried about the symptoms of acromegaly if it was legitimate GH.

This is news, as most of the PR on men's threads state that the acromegaly relates more to pre-recumbanent Gh, ie., cadavers. I understand the tumor and CTS concern, but are there recent studies related to acromegaly? and at what doses?

[axioma]

FYI: don't know what the reputation is but: branded Hygetropin is out there for $350 @ 200iu. Just thought I would pass that on. The missus and myself are both in mid-40's so we are contemplating using it. Do you feel that gh is good for women of any age? Is it age dependant like it is in men? I don't think that some of the women using it here are much past their 20's? Still beneficial?

[sassy69]

I would really like to see this thread get back on track with the AI discussion. I have been reading and really learning. I train my wife, who is a state champ and wants to take masters as far as she can. I always err on the side of very cautious, however I want to be able to help her with whatever I can. She is a beast regarding workout and diets strict when called upon, so no problems there. I have found lots of hypothetical precontest compounds with maybe, soso dosages, however the AI seems like it would really have health benefits outside contest prep. Please resurrect this thread.


Are you asking if aromatase inhibitors have health benefits for purposes other than competition prep? Or are you referring to SARMs like nolvadex?

[axioma]

Are you asking if aromatase inhibitors have health benefits for purposes other than competition prep? Or are you referring to SARMs like nolvadex?
I am referring to both: ai's for comp and sarms for health benefit. Of course, comp is paramount right now, competition is in Aug., however I am fascinated by the use of sarms and ai's for general health maintenance. Xiomara is 47 and seldom gets a full blown period, just some cramps and light otherwise.

[sassy69]

I am referring to both: ai's for comp and sarms for health benefit. Of course, comp is paramount right now, competition is in Aug., however I am fascinated by the use of sarms and ai's for general health maintenance. Xiomara is 47 and seldom gets a full blown period, just some cramps and light otherwise.

Not taking from Leigh's thread, but IMO long-term use of anything that suppresses estrogen is not a good thing.

What is the 'general health maintenance' value you'd be expecting?

Those women I've heard of who use nolvadex year round have ultra dry skin and I don't know the state of their hair. Long term of use AI's will probably bring you to painfully dry joints as well.

Short-term suppression, as we often see w/ competition prep, can be accommodated, but long-term will essentially bring you into early menopause.

[crossbellas]

My wife is 47 5ft2 and 155lbs. She is natural and strong and is beginning her diet/cardio to lean up for spring. We are getting some Anavar (Oxandrolone) 10mg tabs to help her keep the muscle she has earned while cutting the fat. We are wondering what her dosage should be for minimal side effects and maximum results. Thank you for your help!

[Lee Penman]

Not taking from Leigh's thread, but IMO long-term use of anything that suppresses estrogen is not a good thing.

What is the 'general health maintenance' value you'd be expecting?

Those women I've heard of who use nolvadex year round have ultra dry skin and I don't know the state of their hair. Long term of use AI's will probably bring you to painfully dry joints as well.

Short-term suppression, as we often see w/ competition prep, can be accommodated, but long-term will essentially bring you into early menopause.
Your input is always welcome and valuable.....

[Lee Penman]

My wife is 47 5ft2 and 155lbs. She is natural and strong and is beginning her diet/cardio to lean up for spring. We are getting some Anavar (Oxandrolone) 10mg tabs to help her keep the muscle she has earned while cutting the fat. We are wondering what her dosage should be for minimal side effects and maximum results. Thank you for your help!
She could safely do 10mg/day. If she wanted she could split that into two doses.....

[crossbellas]

Thank you so much for your help. Is the same dosage safe for her friend, a 22yr old 122lb natural bb whose goals are not as lofty as my wife's.( I.E.more fitness look to where my wife is wanting more muscle)

[Lee Penman]

Thank you so much for your help. Is the same dosage safe for her friend, a 22yr old 122lb natural bb whose goals are not as lofty as my wife's.( I.E.more fitness look to where my wife is wanting more muscle)
In her case she could start at 5mg per day and see how that feels before upping it...
however, for just the fitness look she really doesn't need to take anything....quality food, good supps and a good training schedule will suffice. No need to jump into drugs.....

[crossbellas]

Thanks for all your help.

[Lee Penman]

Thanks for all your help.
No probs....that's what I am here for......

[axioma]

Leigh, question on hcg: how does it relate to fat loss? I write a fitness column for the local paper and I am really sick and tired of bariatric clinics advertising this stuff. Correct me if I am wrong, but there are two related studies: 1958 in conjunction with a 500 calorie a day diet. Result: could have just been the diet and 1972 study that the difference between the control group and placebo was .02. NOT SIGNIFCANT! What is your take?

[Lee Penman]

Leigh, question on hcg: how does it relate to fat loss? I write a fitness column for the local paper and I am really sick and tired of bariatric clinics advertising this stuff. Correct me if I am wrong, but there are two related studies: 1958 in conjunction with a 500 calorie a day diet. Result: could have just been the diet and 1972 study that the difference between the control group and placebo was .02. NOT SIGNIFCANT! What is your take?
HCG seems to have fallen into the category of the latest 'fat loss weapon' by a media always searching for the magic bullet.
Calorie restriction is usually involved and probably more responsible for any weight loss.......

[axioma]

thanks...something to think about...5000iu's of hcg is $8-$10 bucks, tops. The clinics sell the shots $40-$50 for 50iu x 1 weekly! Holy cow. How can a non-m.d. get on that action?

[crossbellas]

leigh,
... the wife has been on for 5 mgs var twice daily for 12 wks now and has put on good visible muscle gains. she is thick and strong. she is gonna come off and do a lil cardio and drop the water to see what we have. we were thinking 6 wks off and then running another 12.
is this typical? or should we shorten the off?

[crossbellas]

thanks...something to think about...5000iu's of hcg is $8-$10 bucks, tops. The clinics sell the shots $40-$50 for 50iu x 1 weekly! Holy cow. How can a non-m.d. get on that action?
The B12 shots are even more and they do those in spas. it costs $7 for 10 ml and they shoot em for $70 per ml

[sassy69]

HCG seems to have fallen into the category of the latest 'fat loss weapon' by a media always searching for the magic bullet.
Calorie restriction is usually involved and probably more responsible for any weight loss.......

Extreme calorie restriction in these diets...

[Lee Penman]

leigh,
... the wife has been on for 5 mgs var twice daily for 12 wks now and has put on good visible muscle gains. she is thick and strong. she is gonna come off and do a lil cardio and drop the water to see what we have. we were thinking 6 wks off and then running another 12.
is this typical? or should we shorten the off?
The recommendation is to take the same amount of time OFF the drug as was spent ON....which in this instance would be 12 weeks. However, as we all know, recommendations do not always get integrated into 'real life' situations. So, given that, I would say she should take at least six weeks off but preferably eight. This will allow the drug to be just as effective the second time around as the body has not become used to it......

[crossbellas]

The recommendation is to take the same amount of time OFF the drug as was spent ON....which in this instance would be 12 weeks. However, as we all know, recommendations do not always get integrated into 'real life' situations. So, given that, I would say she should take at least six weeks off but preferably eight. This will allow the drug to be just as effective the second time around as the body has not become used to it......

Thank you for the help. we were planning for two months already so we will just bump it up a lil

[anneparker]

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