carb/fat loading question

[GENESIS]

what would you suggest for someone to do to fill out before a contest? somepeople will just take in carbs for the day before, some will increse all food from each source, and some do a fat and protein load....

what do you think would be the best for someone who holds water in their legs easily to do inorder to come in the fullest possible.

[GENESIS]

comon a few people have viewed this... put in your input/theorys whatever i just want to know what you all think your your approach would be

[Ken "Skip" Hill]

SkipLoad. That is my approach.

Skip

[Frosty]

Here is simply my opinion, but I get it from logic and experience. You have to physiologically give the body a reason and ability to store a ton of glycogen in muscle tissue. The body is a biological organism that adapts to the demands placed on it.

Does 5x5 put much demand on the glycogen system in the muscles? Hell no. Why would the body store a ton of carbs if you only train with low volume and reps? What if you did 10x10 with incomplete rest intervals? Now not only have you started to use a more glycogen dependent rep range, you also have volume which requires more glycogen, and on top of that the incomplete rest intervals really tax the muscle's ability to fuel the sets towards the end. Because of this, the body will be more willing to fill up muscle tissue with tons of glycogen. Enzyme pathways used in glycogen storage are upregulated, and the muscle tissue is more receptive to glucose uptake. This allows for greater muscle fullness. This is why I feel many guys doing keto and low rep/low volume training don't fill up well. Why would it? There's no real demand for the body to fill a need.

But you can't just do one workout before a load and expect all the adaptations to be there. IMO a couple weeks at least is needed to get training volume up and cause adaptations in the body for increased glycogen storage. Then if you did a depleting workout before your load at the end, the body has a REAL need for lots of glycogen, and all the pathways for this are upregulated, and the depleted workout plus a Skipload would allow you to supercompensate and REALLY fill out.

Just my opinion. How it's applied I would be very careful to try anything all that new close to a competition. I also think it would be good to be ready slightly ahead of schedule and not try to diet like crazy right up to the show so you can fill out better.

[bigmikecox]

Keep it simple. Don't do anything drastic. Do what got you to where you are at now.

[tonyaskew]

what would you suggest for someone to do to fill out before a contest? somepeople will just take in carbs for the day before, some will increse all food from each source, and some do a fat and protein load....

what do you think would be the best for someone who holds water in their legs easily to do inorder to come in the fullest possible.


Honestly I would not do anything much different than what you are currently doing. Why chance things at the end?

Normally if you have depleted your carbs the right way, and you are lean enough. Adding them back should not be that much of an issue.

[THUNDERGOD]

You could always hire someone for the last few weeks prior to the show.

[Frosty]

Normally if you have depleted your carbs the right way, and you are lean enough. Adding them back should not be that much of an issue.

One problem is if you've never loaded before how do you really know what's going to happen? It's a total shot in the dark. You could end up flat. You could end up totally bloated and soft. If you use loading as part of the diet for at LEAST a few weeks you can learn what really works, and be confident in your load before the show instead of totally guessing and just hoping it'll work. That's where Skiploading is good because it's part of the diet and you get a ton of experience loading and you'll know exactly what to do and what to expect. You can refine it and there's no guess work. That's a more scientific approach to getting loading just right for you.

[tonyaskew]

One problem is if you've never loaded before how do you really know what's going to happen? It's a total shot in the dark. You could end up flat. You could end up totally bloated and soft. If you use loading as part of the diet for at LEAST a few weeks you can learn what really works, and be confident in your load before the show instead of totally guessing and just hoping it'll work. That's where Skiploading is good because it's part of the diet and you get a ton of experience loading and you'll know exactly what to do and what to expect. You can refine it and there's no guess work. That's a more scientific approach to getting loading just right for you.


IMO skip loading is over rated.
I know 2 different BB'ers who've skip loaded and both were so spilled over they actually looked sloppy.

There is a difference in a moderate to strong load vs. just going nuts with the carbs...

There are too many variables, it's too drastic and one that I would not risk.

[Frosty]

IMO skip loading is over rated.
I know 2 different BB'ers who've skip loaded and both were so spilled over they actually looked sloppy.

There is a difference in a moderate to strong load vs. just going nuts with the carbs...

There are too many variables, it's too drastic and one that I would not risk.


However you load the whole idea is to use loading during the prep so you know how you react. If a guy overdid it, then he made a mistake with the load and did something different or he didn't refine it during the prep.

It's pretty simple...if you're spilling over and not recovering in time, you should reduce the amount you take in. It's about adjusting based on results and feedback you get with your own body. But finding this right balance can only be done if you practice it many times during your prep to find the right amounts and the right way to do it. If you nail it down and you can repeat that for a few times, come contest time you know exactly how to load and how long before the show to load in order to look your best.

It's only a risk if you never practice and just try to shit load right before the show, not knowing how much and how long to load, and how long it takes afterward for you to peak.

[Ken "Skip" Hill]

IMO skip loading is over rated.
I know 2 different BB'ers who've skip loaded and both were so spilled over they actually looked sloppy.

There is a difference in a moderate to strong load vs. just going nuts with the carbs...

There are too many variables, it's too drastic and one that I would not risk.

You know 2 bodybuilders that did it on their own and screwed it up and so my loading protocol is too complicated? LOL

Thanks for the fair review.

Skip

[Frosty]

You know 2 bodybuilders that did it on their own and screwed it up and so my loading protocol is too complicated? LOL

Thanks for the fair review.

Skip


I bet he knows a guy that did the Palumbo Diet, just modified with more carbs during the day, and it didn't work!!

[Ken "Skip" Hill]

I bet he knows a guy that did the Palumbo Diet, just modified with more carbs during the day, and it didn't work!!

It just amazes me sometimes how quick people are to dismiss something that they "heard" from so-and-so didn't work for them.

I tried DC training once for a month and didn't gain 20 pounds of lean muscle. DC training sucks.

Skip

[johngorman]

IMO skip loading is over rated.
I know 2 different BB'ers who've skip loaded and both were so spilled over they actually looked sloppy.

There is a difference in a moderate to strong load vs. just going nuts with the carbs...

There are too many variables, it's too drastic and one that I would not risk.
i can bet the guys you know tried it on their own without knowledge of how to clean up the spill, or even how to accurately load in the first place. you think it's over-rated because you dont understand all the concepts correct?

you have to understand carbing up has way more to do with other variables than just eating a bunch of carbs and worrying about spilling over. that's like saying "i tried using the bench press to help me put on size, but i know 2 guys who only use dumb bells so i think it's overated".

[THUNDERGOD]

Just look at some of the questions that are asked in Dave's Q&A. People asking how many carbs they should have in a post workout shake while doing the keto diet. I know many people that work with Dave and they all get great results. I also know a bunch of people that say they have tried Dave's diet and it doesn't work.....but they forget to tell everyone that they made some "modifications."

the biggest thing is to find someone you trust to do your precontest diet and make sure they can back up what they say. Dave and Skips success with athletes can be found all over the internet.

[tonyaskew]

i can bet the guys you know tried it on their own without knowledge of how to clean up the spill, or even how to accurately load in the first place. you think it's over-rated because you dont understand all the concepts correct?

you have to understand carbing up has way more to do with other variables than just eating a bunch of carbs and worrying about spilling over. that's like saying "i tried using the bench press to help me put on size, but i know 2 guys who only use dumb bells so i think it's overated".


I actually have a very good understanding of how and when to load and with what. I think carb loading is a good thing. Some just take it too excessive levels.

Dude, I followed you, and some of your OVERloading, supersaturating carb cronies over on MD.

Those threads were laughable.

[Frosty]

Excessive would mean it doesn't work. If you practice loading this would be clearly evident and evident that you need to scale it back. I don't see how this is even an issue. One guy might have a ceiling at 500g of carbs while another at 1500g of carbs. Who cares the level when it's all about achieving the desired result? "excessive" is a relative term, and it's determined through experimentation and practice many times to refine it.

If you can make supersaturation, I don't see how that's overloading or excessive. So long as you get the desired result.

[tonyaskew]

Here is simply my opinion, but I get it from logic and experience. You have to physiologically give the body a reason and ability to store a ton of glycogen in muscle tissue. The body is a biological organism that adapts to the demands placed on it.

Does 5x5 put much demand on the glycogen system in the muscles? Hell no. Why would the body store a ton of carbs if you only train with low volume and reps? What if you did 10x10 with incomplete rest intervals? Now not only have you started to use a more glycogen dependent rep range, you also have volume which requires more glycogen, and on top of that the incomplete rest intervals really tax the muscle's ability to fuel the sets towards the end. Because of this, the body will be more willing to fill up muscle tissue with tons of glycogen. Enzyme pathways used in glycogen storage are upregulated, and the muscle tissue is more receptive to glucose uptake. This allows for greater muscle fullness. This is why I feel many guys doing keto and low rep/low volume training don't fill up well. Why would it? There's no real demand for the body to fill a need.

But you can't just do one workout before a load and expect all the adaptations to be there. IMO a couple weeks at least is needed to get training volume up and cause adaptations in the body for increased glycogen storage. Then if you did a depleting workout before your load at the end, the body has a REAL need for lots of glycogen, and all the pathways for this are upregulated, and the depleted workout plus a Skipload would allow you to supercompensate and REALLY fill out.

Just my opinion. How it's applied I would be very careful to try anything all that new close to a competition. I also think it would be good to be ready slightly ahead of schedule and not try to diet like crazy right up to the show so you can fill out better.


One problem is if you've never loaded before how do you really know what's going to happen? It's a total shot in the dark. You could end up flat. You could end up totally bloated and soft. If you use loading as part of the diet for at LEAST a few weeks you can learn what really works, and be confident in your load before the show instead of totally guessing and just hoping it'll work. That's where Skiploading is good because it's part of the diet and you get a ton of experience loading and you'll know exactly what to do and what to expect. You can refine it and there's no guess work. That's a more scientific approach to getting loading just right for you.


However you load the whole idea is to use loading during the prep so you know how you react. If a guy overdid it, then he made a mistake with the load and did something different or he didn't refine it during the prep.

It's pretty simple...if you're spilling over and not recovering in time, you should reduce the amount you take in. It's about adjusting based on results and feedback you get with your own body. But finding this right balance can only be done if you practice it many times during your prep to find the right amounts and the right way to do it. If you nail it down and you can repeat that for a few times, come contest time you know exactly how to load and how long before the show to load in order to look your best.

It's only a risk if you never practice and just try to shit load right before the show, not knowing how much and how long to load, and how long it takes afterward for you to peak.


Excessive would mean it doesn't work. If you practice loading this would be clearly evident and evident that you need to scale it back. I don't see how this is even an issue. One guy might have a ceiling at 500g of carbs while another at 1500g of carbs. Who cares the level when it's all about achieving the desired result? "excessive" is a relative term, and it's determined through experimentation and practice many times to refine it.

If you can make supersaturation, I don't see how that's overloading or excessive. So long as you get the desired result.

All of this is very solid information.

I guess my original statement didn't make the point I meant.

My only observation was, if someone is a little unsure about carb loading to begin with, then would'nt something like a SKIP loading be a bit much if that person has never done a trail run or if they have not done an agressive carb load!?

As silly as it seems. Some people try brand new stratigies at that last minute and wonder why they didnt work.

[Frosty]

My only observation was, if someone is a little unsure about carb loading to begin with, then would'nt something like a SKIP loading be a bit much if that person has never done a trail run or if they have not done an agressive carb load!?

As silly as it seems. Some people try brand new stratigies at that last minute and wonder why they didnt work.


If waiting to try loading right before the show, it's a total guessing game and a shot in the dark. Huge risk.

Although the Skiploading system isn't meant to be like this. It's meant to be run many times through the prep to refine it and know what works.

I'd say if you just waited to the last minute and tried "Skiploading" I think all you did was guess at shitloading. "Skiploading" is a system designed to find what works.

[tonyaskew]

If waiting to try loading right before the show, it's a total guessing game and a shot in the dark. Huge risk.

Although the Skiploading system isn't meant to be like this. It's meant to be run many times through the prep to refine it and know what works.

I'd say if you just waited to the last minute and tried "Skiploading" I think all you did was guess at shitloading. "Skiploading" is a system designed to find what works.

Thank you for your explanation.

[The Big Sexy]

You know 2 bodybuilders that did it on their own and screwed it up and so my loading protocol is too complicated? LOL

Thanks for the fair review.

Skip


Agree. It's tough to look at a generalized principle and just apply it to yourself if you aren't "in the know" - it's tough for the experts sometimes... it sometimes takes a show just to figure out what works for you... or at least a few dry runs during the prep.

If someone waited until the last moment, tried something, and it didn't work - it's on them... not the designer of the program.

[johngorman]

I actually have a very good understanding of how and when to load and with what. I think carb loading is a good thing. Some just take it too excessive levels.

Dude, I followed you, and some of your OVERloading, supersaturating carb cronies over on MD.

Those threads were laughable.
stop getting all pissy. you are the one who said you knew 2 bodybuilders who tried the process and that's it's over rated. now you backpeddle and try and say "I was only saying for someone who has never done it before it might be excessive".

there is nothing laughable about supersaturation if you know how to achieve it. just because you followed threads about it doesnt mean you know anything about it. you think top level competitors just follow a middle of the road approach when it comes to carbing up? not many i would bet! they have people who know how to deplete, how to supersaturate, and how to clean up the spill prior to the show if there is much. so you are telling me you think's its all hocus pocus? at least i have put myself through 2 months of BodyOpus just to learn the supersaturation process and how to achieve it- i did it solely to learn. i would never say a word if i at least didnt try it out. maybe you should check it out? there's good info in that book! hell, i even have two of Lyle Mcdonalds books saved on PDF i'll email you if you or anyone else is interested. great reads, and they all have studies on supercompensation in them.

[Frosty]

Here is a really cool article from Lyle McDonald on carbing up, depleting, superaturation:

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/mcdonald/carb-up-and-ketogenic-diet.htm

[johngorman]

Here is a really cool article from Lyle McDonald on carbing up, depleting, superaturation:

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/mcdonald/carb-up-and-ketogenic-diet.htm

this is straight out of his book that i have saved as a pdf. just finished it this morning for the 2nd time. great stuff!

[Ken "Skip" Hill]

My only observation was, if someone is a little unsure about carb loading to begin with, then would'nt something like a SKIP loading be a bit much if that person has never done a trail run or if they have not done an agressive carb load!?

As silly as it seems. Some people try brand new stratigies at that last minute and wonder why they didnt work.

Now this I completely agree with.

Skip

[tonyaskew]

Here is a really cool article from Lyle McDonald on carbing up, depleting, superaturation:

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/mcdonald/carb-up-and-ketogenic-diet.htm


I am a big fan of Lyle McDonald. Awesome link.

[bigmikecox]

If you are not in shape the week before the show, no amount of vodoo loading will help. I have always just added carbs to my 6 meals the thursday and friday before the show, cut back on my water and then stepped onstage. Why risk 12-16 weeks worth of prep on some crazy loading idea.

[Scoobysnacks]

I actually have a very good understanding of how and when to load and with what. I think carb loading is a good thing. Some just take it too excessive levels.

Dude, I followed you, and some of your OVERloading, supersaturating carb cronies over on MD.

Those threads were laughable.

Tony,

Hey brotha. I understand that points you are trying to make, but I practice supersaturation for the final week with some of my people (when the diet was set up for it all along). Just like skiploading needs to be set up for during the dieting process so too does supersaturating the final week.

Just because you, or your buddy, cant nail it doesnt mean it doesnt work. Here is a client of mine I had only 5 weeks to work with and get him ready for the Northern Kentucky Championships. He took the welter class at that show, the largest one day event in the country (thats not a national show, there were over 250 competitors). Joes dryness and pop on stage were the talk of the show. I loaded him with over 3500 carbs from Weds to Sat. Here are a few pics...notice the dryness look to the skin, and the tightness of the abs to the skin, thats a full muscle belly against dried out skin. Joe is also a natural athlete.

http://www.bodybuildingworld.com/vol14_2/never-give-up.html

He gave me 4 more weeks with him for the Cincinnati, we loaded him again on 3500+, he took the overall at 163lbs from some big boys this time with shredded glutes. He will be stepping on stage at the Jr Nationals this June and will be OVER loading again...

Tell him supersaturation is garbage.

Again, dont knock it because you cant do it, or your friend said he couldnt do it.

You will do much better if you keep your mind open to new things....

Ss

[tonyaskew]

Tony,

Hey brotha. I understand that points you are trying to make, but I practice supersaturation for the final week with some of my people (when the diet was set up for it all along). Just like skiploading needs to be set up for during the dieting process so too does supersaturating the final week.

Just because you, or your buddy, cant nail it doesnt mean it doesnt work. Here is a client of mine I had only 5 weeks to work with and get him ready for the Northern Kentucky Championships. He took the welter class at that show, the largest one day event in the country (thats not a national show, there were over 250 competitors). Joes dryness and pop on stage were the talk of the show. I loaded him with over 3500 carbs from Weds to Sat. Here are a few pics...notice the dryness look to the skin, and the tightness of the abs to the skin, thats a full muscle belly against dried out skin. Joe is also a natural athlete.

http://www.bodybuildingworld.com/vol14_2/never-give-up.html

He gave me 4 more weeks with him for the Cincinnati, we loaded him again on 3500+, he took the overall at 163lbs from some big boys this time with shredded glutes. He will be stepping on stage at the Jr Nationals this June and will be OVER loading again...

Tell him supersaturation is garbage.

Again, dont knock it because you cant do it, or your friend said he couldnt do it.

You will do much better if you keep your mind open to new things....

Ss


Hey Scoob, props to you bro. I have followed you for a while and really enjoy your writings. I appreciate your knowledge.

OK, like I mentioned earlier I simply was either mis-undertsood OR didn't express myself correctly.
Check out post #18. That is what I meant.

I have nothing against carb loading. I just finished a 3 day load myself. No comp's coming up, just curious and the result and process.

That said, my mind is always open. I like learning new and different things. I read alot of what you post. I just do not respond very often.

BTW, Joe looks off the chain bro. That back shot is WICKED looking...GREAT JOB!!

[Joshua H]

The plan I am using to prep my WNBF pro womens heavyweight bodybuilder, age 46, weight 134, height 5'5''. She is doing the WI NPC Natural Championships this weekend in Middleton, WI.

I just wanted to get some feedback on what some of you think. We used a very similar (slightly more conservative version of this plan last Octover where she won her pro card).


Monday-Tuesday-Wednesday Deplete Plan

Meal 1
11 egg whites
3 cups salad or spinach
1 Tsp Evoo
Meal 2
7 oz cooked chicken
15 Asparagus Spears
1 Tsp Evoo
Meal 3
7 oz cooked chicken
3 cups spinach or lettuce
1 Tsp Evoo
Meal 4
2 scoops whey
3 fish oils
Meal 5
9 oz cooked white fish
15 Asparagus Spears
1 Tsp Evoo
Meal 6
2 scoops whey
3 fish oils
Still no salt or diet soda!! Water intake high at 1.5 gallons or more per day.


Deplete Workouts
Sunday was a total off day from formal training: LISS cardio only
Monday
Seated chest press superset with seated row: 3x15-17 each
Hammer strength shoulder press superset with lat pull down: 3x15-17
Cable biceps curl superset with cable triceps extensions: 3x15-17
Any standing or seated calf superset with any abdominal crunch or leg raise: 3x20 each
Pose for 30 minutes
Tuesday
Any squat or leg press movement: 4x15
Leg extension superset with leg curl: 3x15-17
Any standing or seated calf press superset with any abdominal crunch or leg raise: 3x20 each
Pose for 30 minutes
Wednesday
45-60 minutes LISS cardio in the morning, pose for 45 minutes later in the day.
Thursday-Friday
Pose for 45 minutes 2 different times with one early and one later on. 10-12 second contractions per pose.

45-50 second rest between sets. Choose weights that allow for continuous movement and controlled hard contractions on all reps without hitting total muscle failure.


Thursday + Friday Load Plan
Meals 1-4
5 oz cooked chicken breast
3 slices cinnamon raisin Ezekiel + 6 oz baked sweet potato
Meals 5-6
5 oz cooked chicken
5 slices cinnamon raisin Ezekiel

Do not boil your sweet potato, bake it!
Sip on water as needed to swallow food, no more.
Sprinkle cinnamon on your sweet potato as well.
Eat the chicken first before the carbs.
1 Brown rice cake may be subbed in for 1 slice of Ezekiel as you please.
Saturday’s carbs and meals will be dictated by weight and appearance.


Supplements:
Drop all prior supplements Thursday morning.
Taraxetone – 1 serving twice a day on Thursday & Friday. Once Saturday morning and if needed, again Saturday afternoon.
Water:
1.5 gallons or more Monday - Thursday
1 gallon water on Friday which is all gone by 6-7pm.
Saturday early morning, sip on 8 oz strong coffee over a 1 hour period

Salt:
Drop salt Monday morning. Add small pinches of Morton’s salt to each meal Saturday.
Carbs:
The sources of carbs you can use for carb up days are:
Baked sweet potato, Raisin Bran, Grape Nuts, brown rice cakes, Ezekiel, jam & honey.

[Scoobysnacks]

The plan I am using to prep my WNBF pro womens heavyweight bodybuilder, age 46, weight 134, height 5'5''. She is doing the WI NPC Natural Championships this weekend in Middleton, WI.

I just wanted to get some feedback on what some of you think. We used a very similar (slightly more conservative version of this plan last Octover where she won her pro card).


Monday-Tuesday-Wednesday Deplete Plan

Meal 1
11 egg whites
3 cups salad or spinach
1 Tsp Evoo
Meal 2
7 oz cooked chicken
15 Asparagus Spears
1 Tsp Evoo
Meal 3
7 oz cooked chicken
3 cups spinach or lettuce
1 Tsp Evoo
Meal 4
2 scoops whey
3 fish oils
Meal 5
9 oz cooked white fish
15 Asparagus Spears
1 Tsp Evoo
Meal 6
2 scoops whey
3 fish oils
Still no salt or diet soda!! Water intake high at 1.5 gallons or more per day.


Deplete Workouts
Sunday was a total off day from formal training: LISS cardio only
Monday
Seated chest press superset with seated row: 3x15-17 each
Hammer strength shoulder press superset with lat pull down: 3x15-17
Cable biceps curl superset with cable triceps extensions: 3x15-17
Any standing or seated calf superset with any abdominal crunch or leg raise: 3x20 each
Pose for 30 minutes
Tuesday
Any squat or leg press movement: 4x15
Leg extension superset with leg curl: 3x15-17
Any standing or seated calf press superset with any abdominal crunch or leg raise: 3x20 each
Pose for 30 minutes
Wednesday
45-60 minutes LISS cardio in the morning, pose for 45 minutes later in the day.
Thursday-Friday
Pose for 45 minutes 2 different times with one early and one later on. 10-12 second contractions per pose.

45-50 second rest between sets. Choose weights that allow for continuous movement and controlled hard contractions on all reps without hitting total muscle failure.


Thursday + Friday Load Plan
Meals 1-4
5 oz cooked chicken breast
3 slices cinnamon raisin Ezekiel + 6 oz baked sweet potato
Meals 5-6
5 oz cooked chicken
5 slices cinnamon raisin Ezekiel

Do not boil your sweet potato, bake it!
Sip on water as needed to swallow food, no more.
Sprinkle cinnamon on your sweet potato as well.
Eat the chicken first before the carbs.
1 Brown rice cake may be subbed in for 1 slice of Ezekiel as you please.
Saturday’s carbs and meals will be dictated by weight and appearance.


Supplements:
Drop all prior supplements Thursday morning.
Taraxetone – 1 serving twice a day on Thursday & Friday. Once Saturday morning and if needed, again Saturday afternoon.
Water:
1.5 gallons or more Monday - Thursday
1 gallon water on Friday which is all gone by 6-7pm.
Saturday early morning, sip on 8 oz strong coffee over a 1 hour period

Salt:
Drop salt Monday morning. Add small pinches of Morton’s salt to each meal Saturday.
Carbs:
The sources of carbs you can use for carb up days are:
Baked sweet potato, Raisin Bran, Grape Nuts, brown rice cakes, Ezekiel, jam & honey.

Sorry bro, but I would NEVER deplete someone that hard unless they were keto, and if they are keto, your loading plan is not the one Id use. Shit to deplete I have my guys drop 50 carbs or basically train on their non training day diets, (they will train 4 days straight, first two as normal, second two Mon and Tues on non training and start a big load on Weds). If you drop all the carbs out of this poor girl she is gonna be FLAT city and the carb load you have planned isnt SHIT. Therefore she will take the stage flat and watery.

When you say drop sodium are you then using all salt free foods too? So it gets cut way low on MOnday thats aldosterone issues waiting to happen.

Sorry man not a great peak week plan in my opinion.

Good luck with her.

Ss

[johngorman]

The plan I am using to prep my WNBF pro womens heavyweight bodybuilder, age 46, weight 134, height 5'5''. She is doing the WI NPC Natural Championships this weekend in Middleton, WI.

I just wanted to get some feedback on what some of you think. We used a very similar (slightly more conservative version of this plan last Octover where she won her pro card).


Monday-Tuesday-Wednesday Deplete Plan

Meal 1
11 egg whites
3 cups salad or spinach
1 Tsp Evoo
Meal 2
7 oz cooked chicken
15 Asparagus Spears
1 Tsp Evoo
Meal 3
7 oz cooked chicken
3 cups spinach or lettuce
1 Tsp Evoo
Meal 4
2 scoops whey
3 fish oils
Meal 5
9 oz cooked white fish
15 Asparagus Spears
1 Tsp Evoo
Meal 6
2 scoops whey
3 fish oils
Still no salt or diet soda!! Water intake high at 1.5 gallons or more per day.


Deplete Workouts
Sunday was a total off day from formal training: LISS cardio only
Monday
Seated chest press superset with seated row: 3x15-17 each
Hammer strength shoulder press superset with lat pull down: 3x15-17
Cable biceps curl superset with cable triceps extensions: 3x15-17
Any standing or seated calf superset with any abdominal crunch or leg raise: 3x20 each
Pose for 30 minutes
Tuesday
Any squat or leg press movement: 4x15
Leg extension superset with leg curl: 3x15-17
Any standing or seated calf press superset with any abdominal crunch or leg raise: 3x20 each
Pose for 30 minutes
Wednesday
45-60 minutes LISS cardio in the morning, pose for 45 minutes later in the day.
Thursday-Friday
Pose for 45 minutes 2 different times with one early and one later on. 10-12 second contractions per pose.

45-50 second rest between sets. Choose weights that allow for continuous movement and controlled hard contractions on all reps without hitting total muscle failure.


Thursday + Friday Load Plan
Meals 1-4
5 oz cooked chicken breast
3 slices cinnamon raisin Ezekiel + 6 oz baked sweet potato
Meals 5-6
5 oz cooked chicken
5 slices cinnamon raisin Ezekiel

Do not boil your sweet potato, bake it!
Sip on water as needed to swallow food, no more.
Sprinkle cinnamon on your sweet potato as well.
Eat the chicken first before the carbs.
1 Brown rice cake may be subbed in for 1 slice of Ezekiel as you please.
Saturday’s carbs and meals will be dictated by weight and appearance.


Supplements:
Drop all prior supplements Thursday morning.
Taraxetone – 1 serving twice a day on Thursday & Friday. Once Saturday morning and if needed, again Saturday afternoon.
Water:
1.5 gallons or more Monday - Thursday
1 gallon water on Friday which is all gone by 6-7pm.
Saturday early morning, sip on 8 oz strong coffee over a 1 hour period

Salt:
Drop salt Monday morning. Add small pinches of Morton’s salt to each meal Saturday.
Carbs:
The sources of carbs you can use for carb up days are:
Baked sweet potato, Raisin Bran, Grape Nuts, brown rice cakes, Ezekiel, jam & honey.
Holy shit why would you drop salt out on Monday for a Saturday contest?????:eek:

you do realize extreme cutting of sodium that far out will eventually lead to......water retention! ALDOSTERONE!!!

[Ken "Skip" Hill]

More than that it will flatten him out terribly bad.

Skip

[johngorman]

More than that it will flatten him out terribly bad.

Skip
It amazes me when people get on here and brag about being a contest guy when they dont know what the F$%* they are doing. I know I would never personally do someones last week and get on here and try and brag about it if I were green as grass- that would just be looking for someone to call you out.

Geez, can you tell I am 2 1/2 weeks out! LOL!

[GENESIS]

didnt he say that she won her pro card?

sounds like he did a decent job to me.

[johngorman]

didnt he say that she won her pro card?

sounds like he did a decent job to me.
please, i am not trying to take away from that. we both know natty pro cards are handed out like candy at halloween in some situations, not saying that's the case, as it has nothing to do with a horrible last week protocol we are talking about. when someones competing on a WNBF stage, that's when it's time to really have someone know what they are doing.

i dont want this to turn into a bashing session, but if you go and put out all the information like he did and it's all fucked up, you better bet someones going to call him on it. cant go around bragging trying to look good about something like this when the last weeks messed up. just calling it what it is.

[GENESIS]

well ill call it like it is and say you threw the second punch in this "dont want to turn it into a bashing session"

perhaps her daily diet doesnt have any added sodium. to drop the rest via elimainating foods that naturally contain sodium would be the only way to lower the sodium even more. and SS also has a big caveat in his suggestion, he "would never deplete somone that hard unless they were keto." dont most female athletes do keto?? HMMMMMM

i just love how most members who get on here think they know everything about everything.

[johngorman]

well ill call it like it is and say you threw the second punch in this "dont want to turn it into a bashing session"

perhaps her daily diet doesnt have any added sodium. to drop the rest via elimainating foods that naturally contain sodium would be the only way to lower the sodium even more. and SS also has a big caveat in his suggestion, he "would never deplete somone that hard unless they were keto." dont most female athletes do keto?? HMMMMMM

i just love how most members who get on here think they know everything about everything.
did i say anything about keto? no.
look, maybe you are sticking up for your friend, but you are missing the point here! he's taking sodium out on MONDAY!!!!!!!! WTF.........you just had two very knowledgable prep guys tell us that is a mistake.

[GENESIS]

no he is not my friend, and im sticking up for him in the sense that he got this girl her pro card, so good for him.

what credentials do you have that support this knowledge?

hell you too for that matter SS

[thepump]

Big Mike and Frosty, I know always have precontest good advice. Nothing against anyone else who has made suggestions in this thread. I would just stick with what you're doing, but if you feel the need ,you can try it yourself or hire someone for some last minute adjustments. Everyone has their own opinion and what works for them, but that might not work for you. Good luck!

[johngorman]

no he is not my friend, and im sticking up for him in the sense that he got this girl her pro card, so good for him.

what credentials do you have that support this knowledge?

hell you too for that matter SS
holy shit, you are the original poster on this thread seeking advice and YOU are calling people out? LMAO! i never said anything about my credentials, you did.

[Ken "Skip" Hill]

Well, looks like this turned into a shitstorm.

JG - you ARE going on and on about something that as much as it isn't something I would ever do, he did and if he got her a pro card he got her a pro card. I don't agree with it and I think there are better ways to go about controlling water, etc., but someone like myself arguing this point goes over a lot more than it does when you do it. lol

One of the first rules of debating on the boards is you have to be able to back up what you are saying.

No offense but that is why you are being argued with.

Skip

[Joshua H]

Scoobs-

It worked pretty damn well last time, unlike most women, she holds very little water so its never been much of an issue. She does not however handle carbs that well, anything over 70 grams a meal and she gets really tired and lethargic. She also has issues major with fructose so we have to watch that as well. The only change here is a 2 day carb up vs a 3 day (started Wednesday last time). Prior to this she had been getting 75 grams carbs a day with every 5th day as a refeed day, low fats, lowered protein and high carb. Her last refeed was a Friday of last week. Same as last time as well.

None the less, your comments are appretiated and will be considerd for future use.

[Joshua H]

The reasoning for dropping her salt on Monday is because I for one (as outlined by Chris Aceto and his basic foundational contest prep protocol) is to first gauge how long it takes for a client to drop water weight after salt is removed. This would (and in fact was) tested months before this contest. It takes Deb about 3 days to drop (6-7lbs) of water given her water intake was above 1.5 gallons per day prior to and during the salt drop,and her carb intake was consistent day to day prior to and during the salt subtraction as well.

Forgive me for not being more specific on the exact foods she gets to have but if we cut the salt Monday morning then she has 3 full days to go without any added salt or salt containing foods. But then on Thursday when the load starts I do allow her to have salt containing foods such as Ezekiel Bread, Salted Rice Cakes, Regular Rasins Bran, and Plain Cheerios. This brings back in small amounts of salt to inhibit any drastic increases in Aldosterone that may begin rising due to lowered blood volume (as the blood becomes hypotonic) and associated decreased pressure at the afferent arteriol in the kidney.

Then as mentioned in my outline above, as water is ALMOST totaly cut on Saturday morning (reduction starts Friday but is never cut out to bypass ADH production) I have her add in just a "pinch" of Morton salt to each meal assist as a carbohydrate transport ion (Na+) major function besides being the major extracellular fluid cation is to assist with cellular transport of which is exclusive to muscle glycogen storage and water attaraction.

Thus any remaining water she does have under her skin is then pulled into the muscles with the salt and glycogen. (R-ALA used for asssitance).

A small 5oz glass of red wine is also used (found it to work great last time) on Friday night just before bed (alchohol acts as a ADH inhibitor at the level of the nephron in which aquiporin 2's and V2 receptors normaly respond to ADH, and resorbe H20). This kept urination more frequent over night prior to the show vs having that sudden momemt when the body realized the trick being played and you stop pissing completely.


Lastly, NO I DO NOT THINK I AM SOME AWSOME GURU! I posted this here for other well known and intelligent contest prep specialst to review and evaluate as to the basic logic, realism, physiologic validation, empirical quality, comprehensiveness, complimenting parts of training-diet-water-supplementation. Many of you here such as Skip, and Scooby are well known and respected contest prep specialist of which I am just now beginning to banch out to (Aceto still my "go to guy" given the 3 text of his I have read multiple times each and the use of his new thread).

I do not do this as a career but rather as side gig I have come to be very fascinated and interested in. Watching people peak and succeed as a result of weeks and months of hard work done in a practical and stratigic manner of which I can play a hand is all I ask in return. My main area of expertise is in sports nutrition and strength and conditioning with more mainstream college and professional athletes. Heavier emphasis on the training aspects. That does not mean I cannot have knowledge of other related domains of contest prep. Untill they come out with degrees in "contest preperation for physique athletes" it all comes down to who you work with, how they do, and how consistent you are with your athletes. Thats the mark of a good contest prep coach.

[Joshua H]

Natural4life,

Thanks for having my back by the way!

[Scoobysnacks]

Scoobs-

It worked pretty damn well last time, unlike most women, she holds very little water so its never been much of an issue. She does not however handle carbs that well, anything over 70 grams a meal and she gets really tired and lethargic. She also has issues major with fructose so we have to watch that as well. The only change here is a 2 day carb up vs a 3 day (started Wednesday last time). Prior to this she had been getting 75 grams carbs a day with every 5th day as a refeed day, low fats, lowered protein and high carb. Her last refeed was a Friday of last week. Same as last time as well.

None the less, your comments are appretiated and will be considerd for future use.

Good deal, Ive said my issues with it, if it worked for her then good stuff, but you posted for a critique and was just giving you the issues I had with it.

Though 6-7 lbs of water to be dropped on a tiny gal is a lot, that would be like a guy my size droping 10 lbs of water and that is FLATTENING out in my opinion.

I just dont think you can get her fullness back.

If she is dieting on 75 grams carbs total then she is already depleted, drop 25 carbs and bring her into Thurs/Fri.

I think you are flattening her to hard, just my opinion.

And your back didnt need to be had, at least not from me, I gave you an honest critique and wished you luck. I wasnt attacking you.

Good Luck!

Ss

[johngorman]

Well, looks like this turned into a shitstorm.

JG - you ARE going on and on about something that as much as it isn't something I would ever do, he did and if he got her a pro card he got her a pro card. I don't agree with it and I think there are better ways to go about controlling water, etc., but someone like myself arguing this point goes over a lot more than it does when you do it. lol

One of the first rules of debating on the boards is you have to be able to back up what you are saying.

No offense but that is why you are being argued with.

Skip
yep, mostly due to the fact i couldnt keep my mouth shut. :rolleyes:

and yes, you are right, as valid as some if my points might be, i do not have the background to go with it, just a small amount of application and hands on with myself and some clients, but nothing that's enough to back anything up. if it were as easy as just writing it down on paper everyone would be a contest prep guru.

sorry folks,:o i could blame the irritability on being 2 weeks out, but everyone does that, so i wont!

[Joshua H]

I just dont think you can get her fullness back.

If she is dieting on 75 grams carbs total then she is already depleted, drop 25 carbs and bring her into Thurs/Fri.

I think you are flattening her to hard, just my opinion.

Ok so let me use this to help myself and her later on. If she was at 75g a day prior to peak week (which she was) and you said to drop 25 grams, how many days would you drop her down for? Just Wednesday then go and start the carb up Thurs/Fri as you mentioned? Or would you drop the 25 grams sooner then Wednesday? Would you still have her do the 2 days (mon/tues) deplete workouts or not then?

Just want to see where your coming from and why?

[Ken "Skip" Hill]

I just responded to your PM, Joshua, not knowing who you were. I thought you were trying to pick my brain and get detailed info for free. Or... I am just a dick at 1 week out. Probably the latter. : )

Skip

[Scoobysnacks]

Ok so let me use this to help myself and her later on. If she was at 75g a day prior to peak week (which she was) and you said to drop 25 grams, how many days would you drop her down for? Just Wednesday then go and start the carb up Thurs/Fri as you mentioned? Or would you drop the 25 grams sooner then Wednesday? Would you still have her do the 2 days (mon/tues) deplete workouts or not then?

Just want to see where your coming from and why?

Josh, this is where you earn your stripes or your keep so to speak. You need to see by looking at her, if she alreadys looks kinda water, flat and doesnt have that pop to the muscle, she is flat and depleted at that point I just make a few slight adjustments and thats enough in my experience. Really if someone dieted right they are depleted going in....just my take.

Id do like I said, train 3-4 days straight, 2 of those days drop out 25-30 carbs, that would be sufficient, then you wont flatten her to far. Then do your load.

But, this is just my input, you have to see what you see. Maybe she isnt depleted on 75 carbs, but if she dieted the whole way on that, she is depleted in my opinion.

Good luck

Ss