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tornquad2
02-13-2009, 03:11 PM
40 and over what are some of the side effect you noticed with growth enhancing drugs and how to advoid most

Skeptic
02-13-2009, 06:26 PM
I have never juiced although I am "pro-choice" for adults on the issue.

Wanna avoid sides? Don't use 'em.

Wanna use 'em and avoid sides? Research the crap out of it. It will take time to accumulate the knowledge.

Finally, most folk suggest that you lift for years prior to starting. May I ask your background, weight-lifting-wise speaking-wise?

greuceanu
02-13-2009, 06:55 PM
I'm not over 40, but the worst side effect when i was using was joint pain. Bad joint pain.

esplendido
02-13-2009, 09:17 PM
Sides are sides, regardless of age, with the exception of prostate enlargement. Over 40's could already be experiencing some enlargement and a major cycle could speed that issue if an anti-aromatase isn't used in tandem with the cycle.

People do not have the same reactions to the same protocols. What works for one might do diddly for the other. You must use common sense, experiment from an informed position, and make adjustments as issues arise.

Bryan Hildebrand
02-14-2009, 12:45 AM
biggest issues: I dehydrate easier and as a result, find PVC's are more common.

Bryan Hildebrand
02-14-2009, 12:47 AM
other than that, my "johnson" is bigger, firmer and my wife enjoys me more than when I was off and not on HRT as well.

thepump
03-19-2009, 06:35 PM
Not over 40, but haven't noticed any negative side effects

sassy69
03-22-2009, 02:19 AM
Biggest thing I'd probably point out is the joint pain. If you've been lifting over time, its not unexpected that you'll have the associated wear & tear. Then throw in your first cycle and you get two effects - one is that you have improved recovery time, but the other is that you might start lifting heavier because your muscles can handle it , but your joints, possibly already aggravated, can't handle it. Outside of the possible wear & tear, the sudden increase in stress on your joints can happen at any age if you don't manage your sudden strength increase relative to your weakest point (joints).

esplendido
03-22-2009, 02:44 AM
Biggest thing I'd probably point out is the joint pain. If you've been lifting over time, its not unexpected that you'll have the associated wear & tear. Then throw in your first cycle and you get two effects - one is that you have improved recovery time, but the other is that you might start lifting heavier because your muscles can handle it , but your joints, possibly already aggravated, can't handle it. Outside of the possible wear & tear, the sudden increase in stress on your joints can happen at any age if you don't manage your sudden strength increase relative to your weakest point (joints).

That's a very good point! And perhaps you could also explain how you would approach the issue of AAS induced strength vs. unprepared joints and tendons in your training while on cycle.

sassy69
03-22-2009, 02:49 AM
That's a very good point! And perhaps you could also explain how you would approach the issue of AAS induced strength vs. unprepared joints and tendons in your training while on cycle.

At the risk of recirculating bro-telligence, I thought this post actually summarized what I was referring to pretty well:

Originally posted by AnimalMass on competitivemuscle.com

While injecting test increases protein syntesis by roughly 50 times, depending on dose and time, most bodybuilders forget that it will reduce collagen synthesis by more than 50% -- more like 80%, giving you the collagen synthesis rate of a senior citizen. Since collagen makes up tendons, bros are very prone to injury if they continue to lift very heavy, unless they cycle off T and let their collagen synthesis get back to normal. It's like having the skeletal muscle of a gorilla with the tendons of a very old man.

Winstrol increases collagen synthesis. It will give you bigger tendons. However, your body compensates for this by making them more brittle, weaker, and more prone to injury. I can't tell you how many bros work out anaerobically and become injured while on winstrol. Guys who lift in the 1-5 rep range while on winstrol, to baseball players who sprint all out from a stationary position -- winstrol should be the LAST drug they choose. Most of them like winstrol because they don't get the weight gain from it but it is very detrimental to bros who train for any sport anaerobically. Tendons tear easily on it.

Also, the drugs I mention increase collagen syn while also increasing collagen cross-linking integrity, making for a much stronger tendon.

Winstrol, on the other hand, will dramatically increase collagen syn, but ironically it decreases collagen cross-linking integrity, thus making a much weaker tendon.

You can plan a cycle of AAS which will increase collagen synthesis and skeletal muscle growth at the same time. The key is the drug(s) you choose.

Deca, Equipoise, Anavar, and Primobolan will ALL increase skeletal muscle while at the same time dramatically increase collagen syn and bone mass and density, leaving you with a substantially reduced chance of becoming injured than if you choose to use AAS like sus, cyp, or enth.

While testosterone will increase bone mass and density, even at supra-physiological levels, the result is weaker tendons due to inhibition of collagen syn.

To plan a cycle where the goal is to increase skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase joint/tendon/ligament strength, enough to keep up with the dramatic increase in skeletal muscle, you must choose drugs like Eq, Deca, Anavar, or Primo as the base of your cycle. Testosterone and its esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a 'normal' physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like eq, deca, anavar and primo will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. Test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited.

Deca @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, deca is a very good drug at giving you everything you want -- an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood

Primobolan, @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% -- less than deca and equipoise but still substantial.

Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% -- slightly better than deca.

Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies documenting its effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing.

These drugs have longer half-lives than most other AAS, so this should be considered when timing your post cycle clomid use. Here they are:

Deca: 15 days Equipoise: 14 days Primobolan: 10.5 days

Anavar has a half-life of only 8 hours so it should not pose a problem.

GH is probably the most remarkable drug at increasing collagen synthesis. It increases collagen syn in a dose dependant manner -- the more you use, the more you will increase collagen syn. It has also demonstrated this ability in short and long term studies. From what I've read, hGH at 6 iu/day increased the collagen deposition rate by around 250% in damaged collagen structures. This result indicates that the increased biomechanical strength of wounds to collagen structures treated with biosynthetic human growth hormone was produced by an increased deposition of collagen in the collagen structures.

Eq, primo, anavar, and deca are all good -- they increase several biomakers of collagen syn -- ie, type III, II, I, procollagen markers. GH just seems to do so most dramatically.

Use of any of these drugs @ supra-physiological levels with a maintenance dose of test will increase collagen syn while at the same time increase skeletal muscle mass. Skeletal muscle mass gains will not be as dramatic as with large testosterone doses but you have to weigh the risk/reward basis for yourself. Also, these drugs do not satisfy the libido like testosterone, but that is not the point of this thread. It is only to demonstrate that you can increase skeletal muscle and collagen syn at the same time with certain AAS -- the decision is up to you.

dougie
03-22-2009, 01:06 PM
Thanks Sassy! very informative.

HeavyDutyGuy
03-22-2009, 10:04 PM
Only side effects I had were from andro products. That's how I ended up on HRT initially. Had never used 'real' steroids til age 40 given 200 mg test cyp. Never had a problem on that. Now that Im on more, my doc put me on Nolvadex- 3 times a week or eod. Worked like a charm.

esplendido
03-22-2009, 11:46 PM
Only side effects I had were from andro products. That's how I ended up on HRT initially. Had never used 'real' steroids til age 40 given 200 mg test cyp. Never had a problem on that. Now that Im on more, my doc put me on Nolvadex- 3 times a week or eod. Worked like a charm.

Ask him to switch you to arimidex, 1g/eod or 1/2g/day. You blunt estrogen rather than block it. Blocking estrogen will hinder growth because estrogen has anobolic properties.

NaPent
03-23-2009, 08:13 PM
Thanks sassy, I knew about the tendon thing but had not that much about it till I read your post. Isn't America great.

graybass
03-27-2009, 03:38 PM
I'm pushing 50, been cycling on and off for 20yrs. Recently was off for about 18 months. I got to say I have had the opposite experience. Now I feel a million times better when on. A little Test, and a little Deca make everything feel and work better. ;)
I'm cautious with the amount of weight I use anyway, after screwing up both shoulders from competitive powerlifting, so maybe that's why my shoulders feel better on.
In the old days I needed 1000mg of test just to make coffee in the morning!!! :eek: J/K
GB