TRT 8 weeks in blood results

[gman]

I just got my blood levels back. Everything is pretty awesome. My regimen for the past 8 weeks has been 200mg test cyp once a week on day 7, .5mg arimidex MWF, HCG 500 IU 2x a week on day 5 and 6. Here are the highlights:

Total test: 987 (241-827)
Free Test: 37.6 (6.8-21.5)
SHBG: 12 (13-71)
IGF-1: 254 (94-252) [Dr thought I was taking HGH on my own! lol]
Estradiol: 28 (0-53)

RBC: 5.49 (4.1-5.6)
Hemoglobin: 16.6 (12.5-17.0)
Hematocrit: 49.7 (36-50)

All of these blood counts on the edge, but not high.

Glucose: 84 (65-99)
BUN: 17 (5-26)
Creatinine: 1.09 (.76-1.27)
AST: 37 (0-40)
ALT: 35 (0-55)

Cholesterol: 182
Triglycerides: 83 (0-149)
HDL: 41 (>39) kind of low, but actually higher than last bloodwork
LDL: 124 (0-99): high, but actually lower than last bloodwork in 160's

TSH: 2.9 (.45-4.50). I stopped armour about a month ago, and my thyroid is already back to its prearmour TSH.

PSA: 2.8 (0-4.0). I have BPH

In summary, the doctor was well pleased, he said my PSA needs to come down, and wants to try a little bit more frequent arimidex, EOD instead of 3x a week.

The cholesterol numbers need to improve, but he said the TRT may help as we go further along if my diet is good too.

I found it ironic that he had suspected that I was taking HGH! Good sign, I take it?

My strength has been much better just in the last couple of weeks. I need to reign my appetite back in some, but I am definitely dialing in. My one complaint is the amount of time it takes to orgasm, forever and a day. He said the estradiol getting a little lower may help with that as well.

[esplendido]

I just got my blood levels back. Everything is pretty awesome. My regimen for the past 8 weeks has been 200mg test cyp once a week on day 7, .5mg arimidex MWF, HCG 500 IU 2x a week on day 5 and 6. Here are the highlights:

Total test: 987 (241-827)
Free Test: 37.6 (6.8-21.5)
SHBG: 12 (13-71)
IGF-1: 254 (94-252) [Dr thought I was taking HGH on my own! lol]
Estradiol: 28 (0-53)

RBC: 5.49 (4.1-5.6)
Hemoglobin: 16.6 (12.5-17.0)
Hematocrit: 49.7 (36-50)

All of these blood counts on the edge, but not high.

Glucose: 84 (65-99)
BUN: 17 (5-26)
Creatinine: 1.09 (.76-1.27)
AST: 37 (0-40)
ALT: 35 (0-55)

Cholesterol: 182
Triglycerides: 83 (0-149)
HDL: 41 (>39) kind of low, but actually higher than last bloodwork
LDL: 124 (0-99): high, but actually lower than last bloodwork in 160's

TSH: 2.9 (.45-4.50). I stopped armour about a month ago, and my thyroid is already back to its prearmour TSH.

PSA: 2.8 (0-4.0). I have BPH

In summary, the doctor was well pleased, he said my PSA needs to come down, and wants to try a little bit more frequent arimidex, EOD instead of 3x a week.

The cholesterol numbers need to improve, but he said the TRT may help as we go further along if my diet is good too.

I found it ironic that he had suspected that I was taking HGH! Good sign, I take it?

My strength has been much better just in the last couple of weeks. I need to reign my appetite back in some, but I am definitely dialing in. My one complaint is the amount of time it takes to orgasm, forever and a day. He said the estradiol getting a little lower may help with that as well.

Your PSA is fine. Why does he want it down???

Your creatinine is normal, which indicates you're not pushing hard enough. It should be above the high range, which indicates muscle tear down. You want to take advantage of your HRT and wreck the muscle so the repair is augmented by the testosterone....increasing hypertrophy.

Otherwise, great results!!!!

[gman]

Rick, I have been absolutely tearing it up the last 2 weeks. My strength has gone through the roof. For example, and please don't laugh at the poundages, just look at the percentages:

last Monday I did 5 sets of 12 squats at 185, ATG.
This week I did 5 sets at 225 ATG for 10 10 8 8 8 reps

Last week set personal best by doing flat db presses with 80's. This week used 90's. Going to try 100's next week.

did a pretty tough set of deads last Wednesday as well, for me anyway: 6/315 5/335 3/365 2/385 1/405

Will keep busting it harder Rick! That's a promise.

Not sure why he was freaking about the PSA, but remember, this doc has never met me. In fact everything he commented on was relayed to me by the clinic rep. I have never spoken to the doc! lol I told the rep that I had had a thorough prostate screening about 18 months ago when my physical exam showed an enlarged prostate.

[esplendido]

Mike, I believe you when you say you're tearing it up in the gym....compared to previously. And your gains are GREAT! You can push harder....drive into the pain (from lactic acid,...the burn you get when exhausting the muscle).

Take squats, for example. I'd warm up, then do a set of 10 at 80% max (max at 8 reps), then a set of max (8 reps to failure), then a set with heavier weight, allowing only 6 reps, then a heavier set allowing only 4 reps, then back down to the 80% weight and rep to failure. You need a spotter for the entire workout. If you can walk to the drinking fountain, you haven't done enough. That's what I mean by tearing it up.

[gman]

Gotcha, Rick! I will work on finding someone to help with this. My gym is full of non bodybuilders, but hopefully some of them won't mind spotting me!

I am going to get so much better, this is awesome!

What you are describing is similar to the deadlift sets I did, correct? Only I should have done some deads after the 1 rep set?

[esplendido]

Gotcha, Rick! I will work on finding someone to help with this. My gym is full of non bodybuilders, but hopefully some of them won't mind spotting me!

I am going to get so much better, this is awesome!

What you are describing is similar to the deadlift sets I did, correct? Only I should have done some deads after the 1 rep set?

I prefer to do a volume set following my max set to push as much blood into the muscle as possible and exhausting the muscle completely. I do that with every body part at least once every 2 workouts. You get an incredible burn and pump doing this, which is the sign that you've fatigued the muscle sufficiently.

[gman]

I am going to incorporate that, I had never even thought of doing it.

I didn't weigh today, but I did my measurements. Here they are before starting the TRT shots, at end of February. I weighed 210 at the Feb measurements:

Measurements, showing then vs now in each body part:

Chest: 42 1/2 vs 44 1/2 (wow 2"!)
Arms: 16 vs 16 5/8
Waist: 38 3/4 vs 38 3/4 (no change)
Thighs: 25 vs 25 1/2
Calves: 17 vs 17 1/4
Forearms: 13 1/4 vs 13 5/8
Shoulders: 50 1/2 vs 51
Neck: 16 1/4 vs 17 (wow, is it fat or muscle?)

[esplendido]

I am going to incorporate that, I had never even thought of doing it.

I didn't weigh today, but I did my measurements. Here they are before starting the TRT shots, at end of February. I weighed 210 at the Feb measurements:

Measurements, showing then vs now in each body part:

Chest: 42 1/2 vs 44 1/2 (wow 2"!)
Arms: 16 vs 16 5/8
Waist: 38 3/4 vs 38 3/4 (no change)
Thighs: 25 vs 25 1/2
Calves: 17 vs 17 1/4
Forearms: 13 1/4 vs 13 5/8
Shoulders: 50 1/2 vs 51
Neck: 16 1/4 vs 17 (wow, is it fat or muscle?)

Great progress!!!! What is your current weight (which doesn't matter....it's all in the mirror)?

[gman]

I will weigh tomorrow morning and let you know. 2 weeks ago I was at 215

My jiggly midsection looks just as jiggly. I can tell my chest and arms have grown, some of my shirts are getting tighter in weird spots.

[esplendido]

Are you still doing Dave's diet?

[gman]

No, stopped about April 15th. I think that is part of the strength going up thing. I am eating carbs again.

I am eating clean about 80% right now and enjoying the TRT, seems as long as my waist isn't growing, I am ok, right?. I am trying to figure out the next step, continue eating more freely for a while, or actually get anal again and track every morsel. Part of me wants to just eat and see how much muscle I can put on. I probably need to be a little more scientific, don't I?

[esplendido]

No, stopped about April 15th. I think that is part of the strength going up thing. I am eating carbs again.

I am eating clean about 80% right now and enjoying the TRT, seems as long as my waist isn't growing, I am ok, right?. I am trying to figure out the next step, continue eating more freely for a while, or actually get anal again and track every morsel. Part of me wants to just eat and see how much muscle I can put on. I probably need to be a little more scientific, don't I?

Eat clean. You'll regret getting sloppy.

[gman]

I know that I should, but should I be anal and measure, or just eat clean and eat when hungry?

For example, pour oatmeal in the bowl without a measuring cup, cooking it, then add a splash of milk, and a spoon of heart smart vs leveling a half cup before pouring in bowl and cooking, no milk, no heart smart.

[BEAST MODE]

G I still measure my food when bulking. Keeps me honest. The only time I don't care is when I'm having cheat meals. Every other meal is measured. I would recommend doing it that way instead of just eyeballing it like you described. If you don't measure and you put on fat, how will you know where to cut back?

[esplendido]

G I still measure my food when bulking. Keeps me honest. The only time I don't care is when I'm having cheat meals. Every other meal is measured. I would recommend doing it that way instead of just eyeballing it like you described. If you don't measure and you put on fat, how will you know where to cut back?

Agreed!

[gman]

True Rich and Rick! I feel fortunate that my waist is unchanged because I have been pretty unscientific lately. I am even committing the unpardonable sin some days of only eating 4 times instead of 6!

OK, starting tomorrow, back to the grind. I just have to pick a target calorie and macro range.

I do not want to do a cutting diet, because I think the higher calories are helping the TRT do its thing. Any ideas of my range? I am thinking 3000 or so.

A positive note is, if I find the perfect range, this back bacon might disappear pretty damn quick.

[BEAST MODE]

Any idea what you're eating now calorie-wise? You could start at 3000 and if you start to gain and notice you're looking fatter, just cut back. That's why you need to measure and track everything bro.

[gman]

I am eating more than 3k I am pretty certain.

I do not want to lose weight in and for its own sake, just fat. It is going to be tough to find the sweet spot. I am so happy I am getting bigger everywhere but my waist, and I don't want that to stop.

Here is what I ate yesterday, I have no idea how many calories this is:

Pre workout: 2 scoops of whey in water
Postworkout: probably a cup and a half cooked oatmeal, tbsp of heart smart, 1/4 cup 1% milk, and 2 scoops of WPI in water.
Lunch: Package of tuna, 3 cups of veggies
Snack: Uncle Ben's precooked brown rice pouch (I know this is 440 calories by itself)
Supper: Hunk of London Broil, 5 or 6 baby carrots with ranch dressing
Late night: 2 scoops of whey in blender with a heap of peanut butter, water and ice.
A few pieces of peppermint candy from the office dish during day.

That is typical weekday food I have been doing. On weekends I eat more than that and have a few beers and crappier food, but not a huge amount, not like every meal is a cheat meal.

[BEAST MODE]

Just play w/ your calories and macros until you find the sweet spot man. It's all about trial and error. But make sure you're keeping yourself honest.

[gman]

Sounds good, Rich. Do you think my day yesterday was outrageous? Pretty typical day, except I may have a couple of handfuls of trail mix or something like that during the day too. That has happened several times in the past few weeks. I am trying to stay away from total crap, but eat whenever I feel hungry.

Time to get scientific again I guess!

[gman]

changing the subject a bit. I posted my lab results on an HRT forum (not bodybuilders), and they all say I am doing too much test, especially if my trough level is above the high end of normal. One guy even said I was on a mild cycle! lol

200 a day would be a mild cycle. 200 a week is not a cycle IMHO. Am I wrong? lol Be honest, step back, and look at it from a non bodybuilding perspective!

[BEAST MODE]

What was your day like yesterday G? Did you post somewhere else and I'm just not remembering? I need a refresher.

And personally I don't think 200mg of cyp a week is enough to be considered a real cycle. But I could see where a non-bodybuilder may see it as one.

[gman]

I posted yesterday's food up above. It is typical of my weekday consumption as of late.

[BEAST MODE]

Ah, OK you edited that post so I missed it. I think it looks good for now so long as you're not gaining unwanted weight. Personally, I'd add some protein in w/ that rice as your snack and make it a full meal.

[gman]

Rick,

I weighed 218 this morning.

Back on a regimented eating schedule today.

[esplendido]

Rick,

I weighed 218 this morning.

Back on a regimented eating schedule today.

Good! Remember, eating to gain is a regimented as eating to lose. And while gaining, you won't be burning any of the fat you currently have.

Did you have a new competition goal for the future?

[gman]

I am confused right now about WHAT my goals are! lol

Part of me wants to get the muscle then cut, but part of me wants to be ready for my trip to Playa del Carmen in August for my 25th anniversary, plus I am tired of having a spare tire! HELPPPPP!

I guess it all comes down to: I don't want to waste this testosterone in my system by cutting. But should I be concerned about that?

[gman]

To add: I wish I had a friend here in my hometown who was a serious bodybuilder who could meet/train/assess me in person, and help me/critique me and get a plan of action. Long distance is fine, but in person, even if just a few sessions, would help so much.

I think I look a lot better than I come across in the pictures, but I know I need to lose a shitload of fat. I think I may go back to my chiro and man to man with him about it all.

One goal I might have in the short term is to try to come to Pittsburgh for the Nationals looking mean and lean. That would give me a goal, and maybe some of the people here who come can talk with me in person.

[esplendido]

To add: I wish I had a friend here in my hometown who was a serious bodybuilder who could meet/train/assess me in person, and help me/critique me and get a plan of action. Long distance is fine, but in person, even if just a few sessions, would help so much.

I think I look a lot better than I come across in the pictures, but I know I need to lose a shitload of fat. I think I may go back to my chiro and man to man with him about it all.

One goal I might have in the short term is to try to come to Pittsburgh for the Nationals looking mean and lean. That would give me a goal, and maybe some of the people here who come can talk with me in person.

Mike, it is invaluable to have a trainer or friend or workout partner who can help you assess where you're at and to push you through your workouts. It's easy, yet less effective to be an armchair trainer/advisor. I give you high props for staying with it, continuing to ask for advice, and setting reasonable goals. You're gonna get there, my friend!

[gman]

I sometimes feel like I am wandering aimlessly, but at least I am doing something productive instead of becoming a fat, middle aged guy like all my friends! lol

I have heard through many people that you have no idea what an intense workout is until you work out with an NPC level competitor (such as yourself).

[esplendido]

I sometimes feel like I am wandering aimlessly, but at least I am doing something productive instead of becoming a fat, middle aged guy like all my friends! lol

I have heard through many people that you have no idea what an intense workout is until you work out with an NPC level competitor (such as yourself).

True. When I end up training someone who feels as though they are giving it their all, they find out what pushing the limits really means. They walk away a different lifter. I usually find that they can actually handle 10-20% more in poundage per set for 10% more reps. What makes the difference is not fearing pushing very hard. It's easy to believe that the burn you get and the exhaustion you feel after a set means you've done your best. You do get some growth with that, but real, maximum growth comes from pushing the muscle past its comfort zone.

If you are doing 3 sets of 10 on an exercise, you're not pushing the muscle. Pushing means doing the first set with a weight that limits the reps to 10, followed by the next set with heavier weight that limits the reps to 6-8, followed by the last set with even heavier weight that limits the reps to 3-6. And the last rep of each set should require a slight assist by a spotter. Occasionally, do a fourth set of negatives with the help of a spotter and with weight 10% greater than you can lift for one rep.

There's more to it than that, but it gives you an idea of how to push beyond the comfort level.

[gman]

I don't even have a spotter, so you might be able to guess in part why I am not even bigger than I am!

I need to find a lifting partner, anyone know someone in Va Beach? lol

I was looking at myself in the mirror while I did shoulders this morning, and for the first time, I am realizing just how good my build is for bodybuilding. My mind's eye is finally seeing what is already there. I just need to push my ass harder and make it even better! My self image has always been poor, but I think I am reaching a breakthrough point where I believe in myself now!

[gman]

OK Rick, here is a theory question for you. Here is a post made on the TRT forum about why I am taking too much T. Is this total bullshit, or does the guy have a point? He says basically that my SHBG is real low and my free T real high because my body is trying to dump all the excess T. Here is the post:

"The concept of short-term-gain long-term-pain is what's going on here.

People who took their Vioxx religiously aren't laughing now, but they thought they were laughing when their prescription was filled and their initial labs and symptoms started to improve.

Those who understood how Vioxx worked knew enough to measure a more comprehensive set of lab metrics, and they stayed away from Vioxx.

Same applies to the greater-than-the-maximum-natural-levels of testosterone that you are at.

The day before your next injection, you're already greater-than-the-maximum-natural-levels of testosterone. I can tell you that the day after your injection you are seriously much higher than that.

Your numbers don't lie. I've seen them nearly a hundred times before. Since most people's genetics behave similarly, (there are always a few unlucky individuals) therefore most likely your body is behaving the same way as those hundred or so people whose stats I've seen before yours.

Your very high T, very low SHBG, and your arimidex dose, tells the story.

When your body tries to dump T as fast as your body is trying to dump T, then you've obviously solved one problem (lethargy) which you do understand, but you've created a new one (serious hormone imbalance) which you do not yet understand (but you will - that's our job).

Ie: just because your medical professional adviser can't see serious hormone imbalance, doesn't mean we should turn a blind eye when we see serious hormone imbalance.

Ie: just because you look good in a mirror, doesn't mean you can stop looking for serious hormone imbalance.

Too drastic, start with 3/4 and re-assess. You'll probably operate best at around 2/3, possibly with some DHEA and some pregnenolone thrown in."

[esplendido]

OK Rick, here is a theory question for you. Here is a post made on the TRT forum about why I am taking too much T. Is this total bullshit, or does the guy have a point? He says basically that my SHBG is real low and my free T real high because my body is trying to dump all the excess T. Here is the post:

"The concept of short-term-gain long-term-pain is what's going on here.

People who took their Vioxx religiously aren't laughing now, but they thought they were laughing when their prescription was filled and their initial labs and symptoms started to improve.

Those who understood how Vioxx worked knew enough to measure a more comprehensive set of lab metrics, and they stayed away from Vioxx.

Same applies to the greater-than-the-maximum-natural-levels of testosterone that you are at.

The day before your next injection, you're already greater-than-the-maximum-natural-levels of testosterone. I can tell you that the day after your injection you are seriously much higher than that.

Your numbers don't lie. I've seen them nearly a hundred times before. Since most people's genetics behave similarly, (there are always a few unlucky individuals) therefore most likely your body is behaving the same way as those hundred or so people whose stats I've seen before yours.

Your very high T, very low SHBG, and your arimidex dose, tells the story.

When your body tries to dump T as fast as your body is trying to dump T, then you've obviously solved one problem (lethargy) which you do understand, but you've created a new one (serious hormone imbalance) which you do not yet understand (but you will - that's our job).

Ie: just because your medical professional adviser can't see serious hormone imbalance, doesn't mean we should turn a blind eye when we see serious hormone imbalance.

Ie: just because you look good in a mirror, doesn't mean you can stop looking for serious hormone imbalance.

Too drastic, start with 3/4 and re-assess. You'll probably operate best at around 2/3, possibly with some DHEA and some pregnenolone thrown in."

Let me be polite and say this guy is a fucking idiot.

First, the red herring of Vioxx. That's like saying you shouldn't wade into the water to fish because children drown in swimming pools. Totally unconnected except for what he's inferring that people are lulled to sleep by good temporary results, when the long term is fatal (again, a disconnect).

Your body tries to "balance" your high test by aromatizing it into estrogen and or converting it to DHT. This is why you take arimidex, to midigate that process and allow the test to do its work. Gains are dose related to a point (that point has been theorized at somewhere between 4 and 5 grams/week). As the dose goes up, so does the chance and severity of sides. Again, the reason for AI supplementation and PCT.

If all you're doing is HRT for quality of life, i.e. more energy, higher sex drive, better strength on a normal level, then listen to this dweeb. If you're trying to gain extraordinary musculature, then ignore him.

[gman]

haha, I am trying to do both, so I will listen to you.

I think the online clinic "sort of" knows that I am a bodybuilder as well.

I do wonder, my T level at the trough is still higher than normal range! Imagine what it must be during the few days after I inject.

I feel fine, and I think I will just keep going.

[gman]

I am proud of myself for what I did today during my back workout!

Deads: 135/12 225/10 315/6 405/3 405/3

Woohooo! 405 for reps, twice! I had only done 1 set for 1 rep at 405 on two separate occasions before. I put on Knock 'em Dead by Motley Crue, and it pumped me up.

The second set at 405 was tough, but I probably could have done 4 or 5 in the first 405 set.

Is it the TRT that's making me stronger, or am I stronger because I think the TRT is making me stronger?

Only the Shadow knows.

[Rocco1943]

True. When I end up training someone who feels as though they are giving it their all, they find out what pushing the limits really means. They walk away a different lifter. I usually find that they can actually handle 10-20% more in poundage per set for 10% more reps. What makes the difference is not fearing pushing very hard. It's easy to believe that the burn you get and the exhaustion you feel after a set means you've done your best. You do get some growth with that, but real, maximum growth comes from pushing the muscle past its comfort zone.

If you are doing 3 sets of 10 on an exercise, you're not pushing the muscle. Pushing means doing the first set with a weight that limits the reps to 10, followed by the next set with heavier weight that limits the reps to 6-8, followed by the last set with even heavier weight that limits the reps to 3-6. And the last rep of each set should require a slight assist by a spotter. Occasionally, do a fourth set of negatives with the help of a spotter and with weight 10% greater than you can lift for one rep.

There's more to it than that, but it gives you an idea of how to push beyond the comfort level.


Well, I can attest to that. I was "pushing" really hard until I worked out with Rick. Now my workouts leave me limp for about 2 days. When I leave the gym I am "done" for the day. And it really does take about 2 days to recover from each workout. Thanks Rick

[Dom]

Well, I can attest to that. I was "pushing" really hard until I worked out with Rick. Now my workouts leave me limp for about 2 days. When I leave the gym I am "done" for the day. And it really does take about 2 days to recover from each workout. Thanks Rick

Its over BEFORE he starts!!! We had a good back work out today, I want to push much more. I dont want to hurt him. He works harder than most of the young one at the gym..

[esplendido]

Well, I can attest to that. I was "pushing" really hard until I worked out with Rick. Now my workouts leave me limp for about 2 days. When I leave the gym I am "done" for the day. And it really does take about 2 days to recover from each workout. Thanks Rick

Good to hear, Rodney! You will see good growth from this. You have enough training and experience behind you to know how to avoid injury while exhausting your muscle. Can't wait to see what you'll look like at the MN next year!!

And Dom, keep him honest, but don't forget, we'll be watching you, too. Rodney needs to push you back!

[Rocco1943]

He has to run to catch with the old man. lol

[Dom]

Sometime next year , we need to sit down an just shot the shit!! Face to Face!! If I dont break Rodney first!!

[gman]

I measured myself this morning, I am gaining weight pretty fast, need to ease up

Weight: 223
Neck: 17
Shoulders: 50.5
Chest:44 3/8
Waist:39 1/4
Hips: 41 3/4
Thigh: 25 1/2
Calf, flexed: 17 1/2
Forearm, flexed: 13 3/4
Bicep flexed: 16 3/4

I am 2lbs heavier than on New Years. I did not do every measurement that day, but here is a comparison of those I did do then to the ones now:

Weight: 221 (2lbs lighter than now)
Chest: 43 5/8 (3/4" smaller than now)
Waist: 40 1/2 (1 1/4" larger than now)
Bicep: 16 (3/4" smaller than now)

Seems like I am better off now, don't know! What is scary is I have put on 13lbs since April 11!!!!

[esplendido]

I measured myself this morning, I am gaining weight pretty fast, need to ease up

Weight: 223
Neck: 17
Shoulders: 50.5
Chest:44 3/8
Waist:39 1/4
Hips: 41 3/4
Thigh: 25 1/2
Calf, flexed: 17 1/2
Forearm, flexed: 13 3/4
Bicep flexed: 16 3/4

I am 2lbs heavier than on New Years. I did not do every measurement that day, but here is a comparison of those I did do then to the ones now:

Weight: 221 (2lbs lighter than now)
Chest: 43 5/8 (3/4" smaller than now)
Waist: 40 1/2 (1 1/4" larger than now)
Bicep: 16 (3/4" smaller than now)

Seems like I am better off now, don't know! What is scary is I have put on 13lbs since April 11!!!!
It's not a weight issue, Mike. It's the quality of the weight. If the majority of it is LBM, then bring it on! Weight means nothing, the mirror means everything.

[gman]

True, Rick!

It is partially on the waist, but mostly in the shoulders and upper chest that I can see a difference

[Asmolenski]

I think you are heading for trouble Mike! When you gain fat you will put it on all over your body including within the muscle and within the abdominal cavity not just your waist. This may give you the illusion of "muscle size" when actually you are just getting fat. If your waist is now pushing 40 inches that is a very bad sign in my opinion especially considering how hard it has been for you to lose any fat at all. The amount of testosterone replacement you are taking will definitely help you put on some muscle mass and stay a bit leaner but you are not going to achieve your goals unless you mirror it with a disciplined diet. Last we talked you said you wanted a "beach body" with a six pack etc - have you given up on that?

[esplendido]

I think you are heading for trouble Mike! When you gain fat you will put it on all over your body including within the muscle and within the abdominal cavity not just your waist. This may give you the illusion of "muscle size" when actually you are just getting fat. If your waist is now pushing 40 inches that is a very bad sign in my opinion especially considering how hard it has been for you to lose any fat at all. The amount of testosterone replacement you are taking will definitely help you put on some muscle mass and stay a bit leaner but you are not going to achieve your goals unless you mirror it with a disciplined diet. Last we talked you said you wanted a "beach body" with a six pack etc - have you given up on that?

Might be good to keep abreast of the ongoing conversation. Mike has pulled away from the Keto diet and is allowing himself a little bulking cycle. I don't think his measurements are indicative of fat gain. More likely the standard water gain on a cycle, which is expected and needed for strength building. I believe he's going to wait until he has a contest in sight to melt the excess weight off with a strict diet.

[Asmolenski]

Might be good to keep abreast of the ongoing conversation. Mike has pulled away from the Keto diet and is allowing himself a little bulking cycle. I don't think his measurements are indicative of fat gain. More likely the standard water gain on a cycle, which is expected and needed for strength building. I believe he's going to wait until he has a contest in sight to melt the excess weight off with a strict diet.

Thanks but Mike and I have been in touch recently outside this venue. Give me a call Mike and we can talk more about this if you want.

[esplendido]

Thanks but Mike and I have been in touch recently outside this venue. Give me a call Mike and we can talk more about this if you want.

Then he's two-timing you because he and I have also been communicating outside of Rx Forums.

[Asmolenski]

Then he's two-timing you because he and I have also been communicating outside of Rx Forums.

Maybe we need to get together and compare notes! JK. Mike - if you are happy keep going...

[esplendido]

Maybe we need to get together and compare notes! JK. Mike - if you are happy keep going...

Mike needs to decide who or what he should follow, or what from many voices he should apply to his circumstances. I have no problem with him seeking advice from whomever he pleases, and do not consider my advice to be the end-all of advice.

I would, however, ask Mike to focus, and not bounce around due to constant doubting. Staying a course to realize results is critical.

[Asmolenski]

Mike needs to decide who or what he should follow, or what from many voices he should apply to his circumstances. I have no problem with him seeking advice from whomever he pleases, and do not consider my advice to be the end-all of advice.

I would, however, ask Mike to focus, and not bounce around due to constant doubting. Staying a course to realize results is critical.

Good advice.

[gman]

I am going by the fact my waist was an inch and a quarter bigger last time I weighed this much.

Not sure what to do, I am conflicted as usual. Part of me wants to just give up on ever being lean, it is just too damn hard. The other part of me wants to do 2 hours of intense cardio and eat 1500 calories a day for 4 months, which is pretty much the only way I will ever get my weight under even 200lbs.

I wish I knew what to do, but it is not easy to figure out.

I do enjoy being stronger and have my buddies at the gym tell me I am getting bigger in the shoulders and chest,and that I look better than ever.

Too bad you can't bulk everywhere but the waist.

[gman]

Just for fun, I measured my arm this morning when I woke up. 17" on the button, flexed cold. New record for me. I did arms yesterday, and I guess I am holding the pump somehow.

[esplendido]

Just for fun, I measured my arm this morning when I woke up. 17" on the button, flexed cold. New record for me. I did arms yesterday, and I guess I am holding the pump somehow.

Holy cow! Could it be......no.....not that.......but could it be....

that HRT WORKS!!!!????? And staying with it produces RESULTS????? :D

[gman]

Holy cow, pulled 425 for one rep today, another pr!

The downside of it all is, I am snoring again enough to wake my wife, a sure sign that I am gaining fat in a bad way.

[LookImDancinCrazy!]

Your creatinine is normal, which indicates you're not pushing hard enough. It should be above the high range, which indicates muscle tear down.


I don't think we can reliably conclude that from one sample. I have a chronic illness and get full bloodwork very regularly. My creatinine will be high the day after a heavy workout, particularly legs, but if taken on the last recovery day before the next workout, it will be normal. Since progressive resistance lifting is a continual cycle of tearing down, recovering, and overcompensating, there should be times when creatinine is high, then normal, provided you're not overtraining.

[esplendido]

Holy cow, pulled 425 for one rep today, another pr!

The downside of it all is, I am snoring again enough to wake my wife, a sure sign that I am gaining fat in a bad way.

Not so fast, my trepidatious one. The additional water you gain on cycle will cause the same effect. I start snoring when I get above 270, and I can tell you that my BF isn't over 10% then.

[esplendido]

I don't think we can reliably conclude that from one sample. I have a chronic illness and get full bloodwork very regularly. My creatinine will be high the day after a heavy workout, particularly legs, but if taken on the last recovery day before the next workout, it will be normal. Since progressive resistance lifting is a continual cycle of tearing down, recovering, and overcompensating, there should be times when creatinine is high, then normal, provided you're not overtraining.

I have to respectfully disagree. I have my blood work done regularly. I usually schedule it for the second day I'm off so that my levels will reflect a rested condition. My creatinine is always high, and I have no disease or illness I'm dealing with. The muscle repair the body does takes days per bodypart. If that were not true, recovery in a day would allow working each muscle several times a week, and at our age, once a week per bodypart is the max to allow complete recovery. Why do you feel sore two days after working a bodypart if the recovery is only 24 hours?

[gman]

trepidatious!? I need to look that up, and I am a William and Mary grad! You must be an Ivy Leaguer! lol

I am scared Rick, my pants are getting tighter. Remember that I have spent my whole life trying to lose weight, this is all new to me. I at least need to get more anal, to be honest, I am not tracking what is going in my mouth. I am going to log everything on fitday for 2 weeks to see how much I am eating. I am gaining like a pig getting prepared to go to slaughter.

[esplendido]

trepidatious!? I need to look that up, and I am a William and Mary grad! You must be an Ivy Leaguer! lol

I am scared Rick, my pants are getting tighter. Remember that I have spent my whole life trying to lose weight, this is all new to me. I at least need to get more anal, to be honest, I am not tracking what is going in my mouth. I am going to log everything on fitday for 2 weeks to see how much I am eating. I am gaining like a pig getting prepared to go to slaughter.

Mike,

You'll gain a little girth in your waist on cycle. A little. Now if you're putting on inches, that's a problem. You should still eat clean while cycling. You just increase your good carbs to allow for new muscle growth. If you're eating pizza and fried foods and refined foods....you're eating wrong.

You can use the Keto diet as a guide, and add in about 200-300g of good carbs per day and make adjustments each week according to your weight gain. If you're gaining over 2lbs/wk, that's too fast (that's 2lbs/wk average....you can gain more or less each week, but it should average no more than 2lbs/wk over a month.)

[gman]

I have not eaten any pizza or fries, have had a few ice creams and bowls of cereal. I tend to just eat too much of good things, like when I eat oatmeal, a lot of times I just pour it in the bowl without measuring, etc. I really need to tighten up though because I am up 13 lbs in 5 weeks, and a lot of that happened in the last 3 weeks.

Logging will make me be honest, and I will be able to tell what my calorie needs should be.

I am not prepared to have my waist go above 40" I will kill myself first! lol

BTW what does trepidatious mean? Frightened?

[esplendido]

I have not eaten any pizza or fries, have had a few ice creams and bowls of cereal. I tend to just eat too much of good things, like when I eat oatmeal, a lot of times I just pour it in the bowl without measuring, etc. I really need to tighten up though because I am up 13 lbs in 5 weeks, and a lot of that happened in the last 3 weeks.

Logging will make me be honest, and I will be able to tell what my calorie needs should be.

I am not prepared to have my waist go above 40" I will kill myself first! lol

BTW what does trepidatious mean? Frightened?

In simple terms, it means nervous or agitated.

13lbs is too much in 5 weeks, considering the amount of test you're taking. You can't satiate your hunger when you eat. You have to eat to grow muscle, and that might leave you a little disatisfied in the food department.

This is a disciplined lifestyle. Those who have success do so because they discipline themselves for success. Bodybuilding is not a sport that is satisfying on a physical level. We're sore or injured or tired most of the time. We go to the gym sometimes because we have to. We are careful of what we eat so as not to lose muscle or gain too much fat. We can't throw back at a restaurant like our friends and drink and eat to oblivion. We can't get farmer's tans on the golf course or mowing the lawn. We talk in reps, sets, grams, milligrams, macros, etc, so our outside relationships are tenuous at best. Our sport takes hours a day to prepare and execute.

The payoff is on the emotional/mental level, in that we carry a body to be envied by 99% of the population. Regardless of the common negative comments by outsiders, you know they'd give their eye teeth to look like us or to be as strong as we are. It builds confidence and gives off confident impressions to others. It helps us land jobs easier, meet people easier, and accomplish tasks easier.

I remember last year when Laurel (my wife) was in contest shape and she wore sleeveless shirts everywhere. And wherever she went, women would stalk her down to say they wish that they had arms like hers and what does she do to get them. Women of all ages! Men would walk by and say "great guns!", almost in embarrassment. Women and men approach both of us in any gym we work out in to ask training and diet questions.

We get that attention because of the disciplined life we live. Mike, you're going to have to change the way you think and act and SEE yourself as a bodybuilder with rippling abs. That's the only way that the effort to discipline ourself can be mustered up. Resist doubt and put your time in. Discipline yourself for the future today. Look down the road and not at your bellybutton. It does work! :)

[gman]

I am the "nervous" trepidatious.

My wife is the "agitated" trepidatious from me snoring two nights in a row! lol

[BEAST MODE]

In simple terms, it means nervous or agitated.

13lbs is too much in 5 weeks, considering the amount of test you're taking. You can't satiate your hunger when you eat. You have to eat to grow muscle, and that might leave you a little disatisfied in the food department.

This is a disciplined lifestyle. Those who have success do so because they discipline themselves for success. Bodybuilding is not a sport that is satisfying on a physical level. We're sore or injured or tired most of the time. We go to the gym sometimes because we have to. We are careful of what we eat so as not to lose muscle or gain too much fat. We can't throw back at a restaurant like our friends and drink and eat to oblivion. We can't get farmer's tans on the golf course or mowing the lawn. We talk in reps, sets, grams, milligrams, macros, etc, so our outside relationships are tenuous at best. Our sport takes hours a day to prepare and execute.

The payoff is on the emotional/mental level, in that we carry a body to be envied by 99% of the population. Regardless of the common negative comments by outsiders, you know they'd give their eye teeth to look like us or to be as strong as we are. It builds confidence and gives off confident impressions to others. It helps us land jobs easier, meet people easier, and accomplish tasks easier.

I remember last year when Laurel (my wife) was in contest shape and she wore sleeveless shirts everywhere. And wherever she went, women would stalk her down to say they wish that they had arms like hers and what does she do to get them. Women of all ages! Men would walk by and say "great guns!", almost in embarrassment. Women and men approach both of us in any gym we work out in to ask training and diet questions.

We get that attention because of the disciplined life we live. Mike, you're going to have to change the way you think and act and SEE yourself as a bodybuilder with rippling abs. That's the only way that the effort to discipline ourself can be mustered up. Resist doubt and put your time in. Discipline yourself for the future today. Look down the road and not at your bellybutton. It does work! :)

When I read or hear someone speak like this, it is so motivating! I want to leave work right now and go back to the gym...I don't think I did enough for legs this morning. What do you think Mike? Did I do enough?

[gman]

I am ready Rick and Rich. I have been disciplined for stretches of time, but gave up when it was not showing results (for example with Dave recently. I did exactly what he said for 12 weeks, and was stalled out and frustrated). I know 12 weeks is hardly a blink of an eye though.

Permanent discipline is hard to develop, but I am still young! lol

Funny thing is, guys, I am getting lots more compliments now than I was 6 weeks ago.

[gman]

I put this in my journal but thought it was funny enough to post here too:

I was sitting on the rowing machine yesterday with a Gold's muscle tank top on, and could see my v-taper pretty good. If it weren't for this roll around my sides and back I would look pretty damn good. The V-taper was showing in its entirety, while the roll was cleverly hidden by the shirt, so I looked great sitting there. My upper body looks like a V mounted on a tire that is laying on its side. Sucks!

[gman]

Getting the "Man you are looking thick!" comments again. Euphemism for fat IMO

I worked out yesterday with my bodybuilding chiro, who played running back at University of Richmond, and who hasn't seen me in a while, and he said I look like a linebacker. lol

It's weird, I am thick from front to back in my upper torso, but not wide from a front view. Got to keep working on the shoulders.

[BEAST MODE]

I have the same problem bro. No width, but thick from front to back. Just keep hammering the upper back and delts.

[gman]

this is about 18 weeks in. I was 222 in January 2009 in the crappy pics, before starting TRT shots in March. I am the same weight in the higher quality pics taken this weekend.

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w294/namtrag/IMAGE_080.jpg

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w294/namtrag/IMAGE_095.jpg

I am 222 now, but have been doing my shots for about 18 weeks:

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w294/namtrag/031.jpg

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w294/namtrag/032.jpg

Can you see a big difference, or is it my wishful thinking?

[gman]

better pics from early Feb, although I was 7lbs lighter than now, I think they are easier to see. the january ones are from my cell phone, I have no idea why it is so orangeish.

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w294/namtrag/DSC00200.jpg

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w294/namtrag/DSC00199.jpg

[gman]

It looks to me like my arms are too big compared to the size of my back in my newest pic. Is it that way to you guys? I know, I am worrying about stupid stuff again. lol

[Luv2Hurt]

I did not read all of this thread but did skim most. It's really pretty simple IMO gman is eating too much. cereal is a big no no, if you drink milk stop it. Too many people think milk is a beverage, its food and a bunch of sugary calories can be consumed in no time.

Gman should post up his true diet....all of it. Cardio or really what I like to call aerobics need to be done daily, 30-45 mins I would recommend. Don't know if gman drinks alcohol but that has to go too.

Too many people get on the gear and think they can eat the world, not the case at all in gmans case. Maybe a skinny hard gainer, but gman is not that. If you can double that test dose also it would be a very good idea.

Also the advice on training by esplendido was good. I think gman could benefit from a competent trainer who understands his goals. Liked the advice about the squats. too many people give up way too early on the set. The big work sets should have you stopping in between reps for a few breaths at about rep 8 or 9 IMO till you get your 12. Yeah i like and believe in big weights AND big reps on the squat rack.

[gman]

L2H

I think you are right, if I want to lose, I need to eat a lot less. Even when I was doing Dave's diet, he never cut the calories, hence I stopped losing. I was up to 110 minutes of cardio 7 days a week, and the weight was staying on. 2650 calories is simply too many for a man my age who is this overweight(50-60lbs).

I am not dieting right now, so I have nothing to post up. But I will post it up when I get started after my vacation in mid-August.

[Luv2Hurt]

L2H

I think you are right, if I want to lose, I need to eat a lot less. Even when I was doing Dave's diet, he never cut the calories, hence I stopped losing. I was up to 110 minutes of cardio 7 days a week, and the weight was staying on. 2650 calories is simply too many for a man my age who is this overweight(50-60lbs).

I am not dieting right now, so I have nothing to post up. But I will post it up when I get started after my vacation in mid-August.

Cool man work hard and be diligent with the diet. I'm guessing you did the keto type diet, which people refer to as "Dave's" I for the most part like it but personally i will peg my carbs at about 80-100g on that diet and feel I get into a ketosis state that way just fine. Working , training, walking the dog, doing 30 Min's of cardio ED burns that up in no time. I would omit the feed up "cheat" meal doing it that way. Felt all the benefits of low to 0 carbs diet, great energy, fat stripping, no food cravings, not hungry all the time and got in shape very fast.

I see you were taking some thyroid meds before? Why did you stop? the blood work shows they are normal, but you had just recently stopped them? I would have them tested again if I was you to see where they are now. I like to add a fat burner too when trying to get in shape and personally like Clenbuterol. i don't buy into the using clen for 2 weeks then stopping for 2 more before another 2 weeks roller coaster. I just get on the stuff and stay on for the duration of the diet.

You do look to have some wheels, keep at em and your biceps are good also. You can do this.

[gman]

Thanks, L2H. I think that the cheat meal was doing me in as well. It was taking me all the next week to lose the weight from the one cheat meal...lol I felt great on keto, and the food choices are awesome: eggs, pb, almonds, chicken, etc.

I was on thyroid meds, but eased off. The on-line TRT clinic took me off of them. I have a feeling it's a cookie cutter approach clinic, but it's all I can afford right now. THe anti-aging clinic I was going to in 2008 charged me out the butt.

I am not sure if I can get clen from the on-line clinic, but I can check with them.

My problem is one of funds as well. I don't make a lot of money and have a family to support, so even spending $150 a month on TRT is a strain. A trainer is probably out of the question on a more than once a week basis. I will just have to do as best as I can.

Thanks for the compliments. I have always had a self esteem problem, but once I met some bodybuilders in person and had them say how thick I was and how much potential I had, I am now realizing I should have all the confidence in the world.

I am due for more blood testing in the next week or two, so I will find out how my TSH level is doing. I don't like it being as high as it is. I think getting it down to less than 2 would help some.

[Luv2Hurt]

Thanks, L2H. I think that the cheat meal was doing me in as well. It was taking me all the next week to lose the weight from the one cheat meal...lol I felt great on keto, and the food choices are awesome: eggs, pb, almonds, chicken, etc.

I was on thyroid meds, but eased off. The on-line TRT clinic took me off of them. I have a feeling it's a cookie cutter approach clinic, but it's all I can afford right now. THe anti-aging clinic I was going to in 2008 charged me out the butt.

I am not sure if I can get clen from the on-line clinic, but I can check with them.

My problem is one of funds as well. I don't make a lot of money and have a family to support, so even spending $150 a month on TRT is a strain. A trainer is probably out of the question on a more than once a week basis. I will just have to do as best as I can.

Thanks for the compliments. I have always had a self esteem problem, but once I met some bodybuilders in person and had them say how thick I was and how much potential I had, I am now realizing I should have all the confidence in the world.

I am due for more blood testing in the next week or two, so I will find out how my TSH level is doing. I don't like it being as high as it is. I think getting it down to less than 2 would help some.

Yeah i know what you mean about things being tight, it's everywhere and can sometimes be hard to justifiy spending money on someting like BB and supps and the what not. Save the clen idea for if you do decide to compete, you can get in great shape with out it.

Stick with it big man, good things happen to good people :) Train and BB for yourself and what it does for you. Dont put yourself on a time table, when it feels right you will know it.

[gman]

20 weeks in on 200mg of test cyp per week, 500 IU of HCG on day 5 and 6, and .5 mg of arimidex MWF.

Total test: 1175 (241-827) up from 987
Free Test: 38.9 (6.8-21.5)
SHBG: 10 (13-71)
IGF-1: 201 (94-252) down from 254 after 8 weeks, is this bad sign?
Estradiol: 24 (0-53)

RBC: 5.92(4.1-5.6)
Hemoglobin: 17.9 (12.5-17.0)
Hematocrit: 52.8 (36-50)

I was told to give blood to relieve this, but I don't think I can because my blood pressure has been high lately, bottom number in the 90's. Ironic, thick blood causes high blood pressure, but I can't give any because I have high blood pressure. They usually won't allow you to give blood if your pressure is high

Glucose: 82 (65-99)
BUN: 20 (5-26)
Creatinine: 1.11 (.76-1.27)
AST: 25 (0-40)
ALT: 18 (0-55)

Cholesterol: 164
Triglycerides: 74 (0-149)
HDL: 32 (>39) down from 41 after 8 weeks. This has me extremely worried.
LDL: 117 (0-99)

TSH: 2.77 (.45-4.50).
T4: 6.0 (4.5-12.0)
T3 uptake: 38 (24-39)
Free thyroxine index: 2.3 (1.2-4.9)
Triiodothyronine, free, serum: 2.4 (2.3-4.2)

They want me to take some thyroid meds due to the last number being so low. Supposedly it's common when you train hard to have your thyroid become fatigued. Supposedly I would not need to be on the meds for a long period.

PSA: 3.2 (0-4.0). I have BPH, this has me worried because it has been creeping up.

Anyway, any opinions on the following would be appreciated:

IGF-1 going down 50 points
HDL, how do I get it back up? I think I might start eating keto again, that was when I had higher HDL, and higher total cholesterol, but my ratio of good to bad was actually better than now.
Thyroid issues...will T4 help or do I need T3
PSA. does TRT somehow cause worsening of BPH?
I have heard conflicting reports.

[Luv2Hurt]

I would not worry about the BPH, normal with high test levels and age. Sounds like it has been confirmed as BPH in the past? Have heard Dave P say BPH can be triggered at first by estrogen from aromatase.

Not sure i undersatnd how you are using the HCG?

[gman]

thanks on the BPH...yes it was diagnosed about 2 years ago first at a physical, then by a urologist who examined me and did a "% free PSA" test. That level being high indicated that the growth was benign (bph) vs prostate cancer.

On the HCG, I shoot 500 IU's on day 5 and day 6 after my test cyp shot, supposed to keep the boys producing on their own and maintain size. It works for the latter, no shrinkage at all so far.

[Luv2Hurt]

thanks on the BPH...yes it was diagnosed about 2 years ago first at a physical, then by a urologist who examined me and did a "% free PSA" test. That level being high indicated that the growth was benign (bph) vs prostate cancer.

On the HCG, I shoot 500 I's on day 5 and day 6 after my test cyp shot, supposed to keep the boys producing on their own and maintain size. It works for the latter, no shrinkage at all so far.

Hummm the idea for the HGC while on is to spread out small doses, I would shoot for 250 -300 IU to prevent desensitization and I would do one shot every 3-4 days, If i was gonna do that.

Not sure why you would do it though? Since you don't plan to come off being on TRT and are I'm guessing are done fathering children? Any kind of testicular atrophy will be negligible.

[gman]

doing it because the clinic told me too, that's all!

I am starting to think we know as much as the clinics do.

[gman]

clinic has started me on 50mcg of levothyroxine per day, said my thyroid needed a boost an this is common with guys on TRT who hit the weights pretty hard.

I hope I really need it, maybe it will help my metabolism a little in any case...