AASistance for Strongman/PLers

[tjoe]

I asked Dave the following question few months back. He answered me on his Q&A and found it good enough to put in his (old) column. Here it is:

Question:
I know you are not a big fan of orals, but I've got a question for you. You've said in the past you've worked with power lifters and strongmen. You have to admit that orals would certainly be of benefit to them. Do you have a general protocal you'd use for a strength athlete?

Answer
Powerlifters or strongmen would certainly benefit from the use of orals; however, I would limit oral usage to the last eight weeks before a meet/competition. Putting the orals aside, the most important component of an eight week power cycle is the inclusion of a long acting testosterone ester such as cypionate, enanthate or Sustanon because long acting injectables ensure stable blood androgen levels. Remember, oral steroids are fast acting compounds with peaks and valleys; therefore, make sure to run 1000mg testosterone per week throughout the entire eight week period.

The oral steroids Dianabol and Anavar are good strength inducing drugs (with minimal water retention) to begin the initial eight week buildup to competition. They'll help build strength in a slow, steady, fashion. However, once the four week out mark is reached, switch over to the heavy hitting androgenic compounds such as Anadrol, Halotestin and Trenbolone acetate (injectable). These drugs will push strength and aggression through the stratosphere, while keeping water retention at managable levels. Remember, even though testosterone and Anadrol do convert to estrogen, the strength and aggression tag team of Halotestin and trenbolone acetate are non-aromatizing. Most importantly, once this cycle is complete and the competition is over, make sure to cycle off the orals to ensure that your liver dosen't wind up turning into Swiss cheese! For strength athletes, short cycles of orals can prove to be both effective and safe if a little bit of common sense is applied.

week 1 - Dianabol 25, Anavar 20
week 2 - Dianabol 30, Anavar 25
week 3 - Dianabol 35, Anavar 30
week 4 - Dianabol 40, Anavar 30
week 5 - Anadrol 50/day, Halo 10/day, tren 50/eod
week 6 - Anadrol 50/day, Halo 15/day, tren 75/eod
week 7 - Anadrol 75/day, Halo 20/day, tren 100/eod
week 8 - Anadrol 100/day, Halo 25/day, tren 100/eod
weeks 1-8 test 1000mg/wk

[robert da strongman]

i did like that when it was in the mag...

[tjoe]

yeah, very proud to have my question be so valuble...
I have yet to venture to the other side but I try to get as much info as I can... maybe some day...

PS for anyone reading - this is NOT a first cycle!!! It is for educational purposes only! unless you happen to live in Meheeko, then knock yourself out :)

[robert da strongman]

haha...its not doing them its getting them.
proud to say i do it natural. but the dark side beckons.....



http://1inkz.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/darkside.jpg

[Hardly Krishna]

yeah, very proud to have my question be so valuble...
I have yet to venture to the other side but I try to get as much info as I can... maybe some day...

PS for anyone reading - this is NOT a first cycle!!! It is for educational purposes only! unless you happen to live in Meheeko, then knock yourself out :)
honestly, whats the difference between doing a test only first cycle and something like this? It doesn't seem all that wild besides 100mg of a-bombs.

[militantmuscle]

The orals kick in faster, and they work synergistically with the test to promote steady strength gains while stabilizing androgen levels, so no erratic fluctuations in plasma levels will occur, which is what you want.

[Hardly Krishna]

The orals kick in faster, and they work synergistically with the test to promote steady strength gains while stabilizing androgen levels, so no erratic fluctuations in plasma levels will occur, which is what you want.
oh no, I understand the point of taking orals, but why couldn't this be used as somebody's "first" cycle?

[militantmuscle]

I think the answer to your question will differ from individual to individual, but here is my take:

I wouldn't recommend this as a person's first cycle because of the hepatoxicity of the orals, especially halo. Another thing is the gram of test a week, not something for first-timers.

Another reason is if this was indeed a person's first time using AAS, I'd want to observe the effect of an individual compound and to say for sure that this guy got these results from X compound. He would experience good results with just one oral in brief period, I'd say 4 weeks.

[robert da strongman]

then what would be a good first cycle? lets say an experienced lifter but first timer?

[militantmuscle]

I'd start the guy out with one oral only, no test, for a 30 day period. Probably anavar. Then if the athlete wishes to progress with chemical support, then you can add another oral to the mix, do the test, very similar to Dave's program listed above. My main point of contention is that the dosages aren't catered towards a specific individual (and Dave knows this too I'm sure, he just provided a good example) and that I would probably want to observe tolerance level of specific drugs for future cycle construction.

Keep in mind there is no 'right' answer, the question ultimately depends on the makeup of the individual who is contemplating usage of the cycle. You could do this cycle, and get AWESOME results probably. It's just not something I would start a guy off on for his first time.

[tjoe]

honestly, whats the difference between doing a test only first cycle and something like this? It doesn't seem all that wild besides 100mg of a-bombs.I am no expert but just relaying some information. That being said, I have read (from many people) that you should only run test for a first cycle and at about 500mg per week for 8-12 weeks or so. This lets you see how your body responds. If you are running 5-6 different compounds and happen to have sides (problems etc.) it would be difficult to pin point which compound is responsible.

As a side note, I have also asked Dave about "first cycles" and he often recommends primo and winstrol. Since they are relatively mild AND the body should respond to ANYTHING at first, why not start easy. He feels test should be saved for later on when it is more necessary to "step it up" to see continued gains.

Lots of opinions out there and many different goals. make sure that when you research, you know the context of the response. For example: You may be concerned with gaining a ton of muscle but the info you may be reading could be regarding strength.

[tjoe]

I'd start the guy out with one oral only, no test, for a 30 day period. Probably anavar. Then if the athlete wishes to progress with chemical support, then you can add another oral to the mix, do the test, very similar to Dave's program listed above. My main point of contention is that the dosages aren't catered towards a specific individual (and Dave knows this too I'm sure, he just provided a good example) and that I would probably want to observe tolerance level of specific drugs for future cycle construction.

Keep in mind there is no 'right' answer, the question ultimately depends on the makeup of the individual who is contemplating usage of the cycle. You could do this cycle, and get AWESOME results probably. It's just not something I would start a guy off on for his first time.Great response bro! And to through in a monkey wrench: Dave is against orals all together and would probably only suggest them in the instance I mentioned or a very specific circumstance. He is very against the liver toxicity aspect of them and the fact that are very fast acting (creating peaks and valleys). That is why he mentions the importance of test in the OP.

Many people say test only at 500mg week for 8-12 is a great first cycle. However, someone in say Roberts case would need to be careful with that beacause of the possible weight gain (since he is trying to lose some weight for the under 231 class). Therefore, maybe Anavar or Halo would be a good choice to increase strength but keep weight down. On the flip side, I would not expect to keep any gains from an oral only cycle either.

I gotta run but I look forward to see what else pops up in this discussion.

[robert da strongman]

I'd start the guy out with one oral only, no test, for a 30 day period. Probably anavar. Then if the athlete wishes to progress with chemical support, then you can add another oral to the mix, do the test, very similar to Dave's program listed above. My main point of contention is that the dosages aren't catered towards a specific individual (and Dave knows this too I'm sure, he just provided a good example) and that I would probably want to observe tolerance level of specific drugs for future cycle construction.

Keep in mind there is no 'right' answer, the question ultimately depends on the makeup of the individual who is contemplating usage of the cycle. You could do this cycle, and get AWESOME results probably. It's just not something I would start a guy off on for his first time.

seems logical to just start slowly and see the way a person reacts to the dose and type of drug.
i have heard mixed feelings over anavar. but seems the best option to start. mild and useful.

[robert da strongman]

Great response bro! And to through in a monkey wrench: Dave is against orals all together and would probably only suggest them in the instance I mentioned or a very specific circumstance. He is very against the liver toxicity aspect of them and the fact that are very fast acting (creating peaks and valleys). That is why he mentions the importance of test in the OP.

Many people say test only at 500mg week for 8-12 is a great first cycle. However, someone in say Roberts case would need to be careful with that beacause of the possible weight gain (since he is trying to lose some weight for the under 231 class). Therefore, maybe Anavar or Halo would be a good choice to increase strength but keep weight down. On the flip side, I would not expect to keep any gains from an oral only cycle either.

I gotta run but I look forward to see what else pops up in this discussion.


exactly about the weight gain. knowing pre competiton the best bet would be the navar and halo...but wow gonna have to watch the liver.

so that makes me ask what can one do if they want to go orals only for a short cycle?

[tjoe]

check it...

http://forums.rxmuscle.com/showthread.php?t=454

[militantmuscle]

Robert, it would depend on the time frame and what you are trying to achieve exactly. What is the situation? How close are you to a meet? Trying to keep strength but lose weight to make that weight class? Trying to build up as much strength as possible? There are a variety of situations I imagine, for you guys, and you have to tailor that chemical regimen towards that individual's situation.

[robert da strongman]

checked it.

good stuff....

[robert da strongman]

Robert, it would depend on the time frame and what you are trying to achieve exactly. What is the situation? How close are you to a meet? Trying to keep strength but lose weight to make that weight class? Trying to build up as much strength as possible? There are a variety of situations I imagine, for you guys, and you have to tailor that chemical regimen towards that individual's situation/

i have 9 weeks.
i need to drop from 245 to 231...
need the strength for some sick events and possibly a pro card

[militantmuscle]

Is this your first time with AAS?

Try tren and anavar, I think that would be a good combo for a first time cycle for your situation, the tren will help with strength and fat burning, and anavar with strength as well. Nothing too liver toxic, and shouldn't affect HPTA function too much. No aromatization or water retention.

[robert da strongman]

yes first time
i hate needles though

one of my dilemmas

[militantmuscle]

Ah, I see, in that case try anadrol or anavar the last 4 weeks, 50mg a day of either.

[robert da strongman]

hmm sounds decent.

i would require someone else to inject me, couldnt do it myself.

[tjoe]

Ah, I see, in that case try anadrol or anavar the last 4 weeks, 50mg a day of either.wouldn't anadrol cause to much water retention? (or not so much at 50mg a day)

[militantmuscle]

wouldn't anadrol cause to much water retention? (or not so much at 50mg a day)

You are correct, and the degree to which it does will vary from individual to individual. Nolvadex and a natural diuretic like dandelion root can be used to address water retention if necessary.

[GameofInches]

My opinion on this would be to not run Anadrol b/c of the water retention (as perviously stated), but instead I would go with Halo b/c of the massive strength and aggression increases. It also does not require any injections and can be run without Test and will nut suppress you much at all. I can't recall if PCT is needed with Halo, but if at all I think it would be very minimal.

You need to really focus on controlling your carb intake (only around workouts), reduce salt, and do some HIT cardio to help drop fat and water weight before the comp.

I think if you did all of this and trained smart and hard, you should be able to do the best you possibly can at the comp. This is just my .02 Goodluck and be safe!

[robert da strongman]

would anavar cause water retention?
thought i read it doesnt...

[militantmuscle]

Anavar would cause pretty much ZERO water retention.

[robert da strongman]

that is a good thing.
uh duh it was in a post above...haha.

is there an need for pct with it?

[GameofInches]

Anavar is a very weak oral steriod. Most of the time it is left for women to use. Ask RazorRipped or many of the other guys on Juice, and they will tell you the same. What you need is a strong oral that will give massive strength gains without water retention and a lot of suppression of your natural endocrine system. The one that will do that is Halo. Once again, just my .02

[robert da strongman]

i have read that.
but is halo worth it for a first timer?

[GameofInches]

i have read that.
but is halo worth it for a first timer?

Well if you said you wanted to run a cycle to gain size and overall strength during the off season, then I would suggest a basic Test cycle or mabye test and dbol or drol. However, you are preparing for a comp and you need to manage water retention, so I would say in this instance Halo is best. Also, you won't be using needles so that limits you on what you can take, and you also don't want to be heavily suppressed like anadrol would give you, so Halo is mild in that sense. Lastly, you would only use the Halo the last several weeks leading up to the comp and even on the day of the comp. This is all my opinion, so you do what you feel is best for you. Goodluck!

[robert da strongman]

but is halo good for a first timer???



okay whats the take on PH?

[GameofInches]

but is halo good for a first timer???

I tried to answer that in my previous post. It is not a typical first cycle. But in your scenario it would be good for a first cycle. If you were trying to push yourself into the heavyweight class, then I would say something totaly different.

okay whats the take on PH?

I think PH's on the market now are worthless. Save your money, or go on the juice. There is no happy medium these days...Do or Do Not. Just my .02

[tjoe]

I wouldn't go with PH (unless you are concerned with legalities). They can be just as dangerous (liver wise) as the real stuff but with a bit less results.
Halo, I think, would be fine if you took precautions. Cut back on the alchohol (stop altogether for now). Keep it to 3-4 weeks prior to the comp. Keep dosage low 15-25 per day split into even doses 12 hours apart (keep blood levels even throughout the day). you could go even farther and do every 8 hours. No pct is required but it may be a good idea to get some liver support for after the cycle. It wouldn't hurt anyway. At that little time and that low of a dose and everything should be just fine.

[robert da strongman]

GoI...sorry didnt get that out of your post. but it is clearer now!

tjoe...havent had alcohol in a long time.


so why is this about me? haha. and ok no PH's
lets get info and others experience.

[GameofInches]

^^^haha, I thought you were considering this for your upcoming comp. Thats why I was addressing everything toward your situation.

A nice overall cycle for anyone looking to gain size and strength would be Test E or Cyp 500mgs 12 weeks
or
Test E or Cyp 500mgs 12 weeks
Oral (Dbol or Adrol) weeks 6-12
or
Test Prop 150-200mgs eod 1-6 weeks

Those are some typical basic cycles.

[robert da strongman]

good post...


and yes the info has helped me. i just have to think and search

[GameofInches]

good post...


and yes the info has helped me. i just have to think and search

I am glad I could help, even if its only in the slightest way. Def keep searching and thinking, this is a decision you have to ultimately make with your body. I can tell you this, I am holding off with the AAS for at least another year, 2 years would be better, but I don't know if I have the patience. And when I do start AAS, my first cycle will be Test only either Cyp for 12 weeks or Prop for 6 weeks. And this is b/c I am looking to gain size and strength, recover quick, do my PCT and then cycle again with proper time off.

[militantmuscle]

It's going to be subjective, but I wouldn't recommend it. And people underestimate anavar, powerlifters don't need weight gain, and the strength gains are very real, and probably perfect for a first timer. Try anavar with effervescent creatine, see what kind of strength gains you get.

[robert da strongman]

effervescent creatine?

creatine makes me bloat like roadkill in the summer

[toddbz]

i would require someone else to inject me, couldnt do it myself.

I got a little hard reading this...no homo ;)

With the toxcity issues why not just run a fast acting Test with Arimidex? The Arimidex should keep any water retention down as well as the fast acting Test doesn't cause nearly as much as the slower ones.
At least what I've been told lol

Oh and Robert...a 23 gauge needle is super small

[robert da strongman]

that does read really bad...

i suppose the test would be good. and it is a great start. been doing a lot of checking on all options.

yes needles....something to just get over.

[toddbz]

that does read really bad...

i suppose the test would be good. and it is a great start. been doing a lot of checking on all options.

yes needles....something to just get over.

At least something to get over if you want to inject. The pros sure out weigh the cons to me on that part.

[robert da strongman]

At least something to get over if you want to inject. The pros sure out weigh the cons to me on that part.

i suppose you get used to it.

[lilfella]

For strength gains with minimal weight gain a great ph is epistane/havoc.

[BrotherIron]

I am no expert but just relaying some information. That being said, I have read (from many people) that you should only run test for a first cycle and at about 500mg per week for 8-12 weeks or so. This lets you see how your body responds. If you are running 5-6 different compounds and happen to have sides (problems etc.) it would be difficult to pin point which compound is responsible.

As a side note, I have also asked Dave about "first cycles" and he often recommends primo and winstrol. Since they are relatively mild AND the body should respond to ANYTHING at first, why not start easy. He feels test should be saved for later on when it is more necessary to "step it up" to see continued gains.

Lots of opinions out there and many different goals. make sure that when you research, you know the context of the response. For example: You may be concerned with gaining a ton of muscle but the info you may be reading could be regarding strength.

I would disagree considering the fact that winny weakens the tendons and causes joint pains therefore commonly leads to tears, severe injuries, and general discomfort. Winny is for the beach bodybuilder who wants to look good, NOT for any strength athlete.

[BrotherIron]

One thing I don't see anyone talking about is that if you use ANY AAS you will need to run a Proper PCT as well as take the necessary precautions during the cycle itself. If you are going to run Test for 12 weeks or however long, you will want to run an AI like A-dex, Letro, or even A-sin to keep estrogen sides to bay. You'll also want to run HCG throughout to keep your testee's functioning making it easier to keep your gains and have a more effective PCT once you start it.

You'll also want to get your bloodwork done a month after the PCT is over to assess how effective your PCT was and take it from there.

[Little Bear]

Just from seeing hte first post I see an issue. 8 week cycles are pretty much pointless unless you're blasting and cruising year round. If you were to pin sus you'd need to pin EOD or ED because of the short esters mixed with the prop esters. If not it's still going to cause peaks and valleys. The problem also with the long acting esters being run for 8 weeks is that you'll only get the benefits of the test really for the last 4 to 5 weeks of it since it really does take 3 to 4 weeks for them to fully kick in (hence why most people kickstart their cycles with orals).

Orals are perfectly okay for strength athletes. Typically the most seen ones are Halo (which is hard to acquire and can get expensive) and Var (also expensive) just because of the sheer strength increases given by both.

Also, with any exogenous source of hormones there's going to be a need for PCT. Do not fool yourself thinking that you won't need one.

As far as PH's go... if you're worried about legality, then go for it, but it's your money wasted, not mine.

[tjoe]

Good info guys! Thanks.
BI - I did not know about winny weakening joints. Thanks I know a guy that was thinking about that this winter... I shall talk him out of it!

[BrotherIron]

Good info guys! Thanks.
BI - I did not know about winny weakening joints. Thanks I know a guy that was thinking about that this winter... I shall talk him out of it!

Winny is the worst thing imho for oly lifters, SM, or PL's. There are MUCH better choices which will increase strength ALOT while keeping you safe and not risking injury.

[lilfella]

FWIW deca helped my joint pain more then cortisone shots. I love it for that effect.

[Little Bear]

Winny is only good for bodybuilders really. It has to be run when you're below 10% and even then you have to supplement mass amounts of joint support. I've had people run it years ago and their joints still haven't recovered.

[BrotherIron]

FWIW deca helped my joint pain more then cortisone shots. I love it for that effect.

And NPP is MUCH better than nandrolone deconate imho. Just be sure to run Dostinex or bromocriptine during as well as when you run PCT.

[Little Bear]

any 19-nor steroid is going to cause prolactin issues (oddly enough so will peptides like ghrp-6 and cjc) so you're always going to want to have caber/bromo/dostinex on hand during cycle and post cycle to make sure you keep your prolactin levels in check. Nobody wants leaky nips :)

[BrotherIron]

any 19-nor steroid is going to cause prolactin issues (oddly enough so will peptides like ghrp-6 and cjc) so you're always going to want to have caber/bromo/dostinex on hand during cycle and post cycle to make sure you keep your prolactin levels in check. Nobody wants leaky nips :)

Most people have absolutely no clue about that which is scary if you ask me.

[Little Bear]

Definitely! I know I've had to basically school some people on how to take care of things that they didn't even know about due to poor research like halfway through their cycles. It just shows you that nobody studies or researches before they do things. Steroids aren't freakin' magic!

[robert da strongman]

BI and LB...school is open.

what would be a useful cycle and PCT?

given the current climate is it worth the legal risk?

[Little Bear]

It all depends dude. Is it a first cycle? What have you ran in the past in terms of PH's and gear?

As far as the current climate it's tough to say. It all depends on the person, but never spend money you can't afford to lose :)

[robert da strongman]

first cycle of the real stuff with PH experience

[Little Bear]

What did your first cycle look like? I take it that it was the standard Test-e or cyp at 500mg a week pinned mon/thurs for 12 weeks then 2 weeks after that 4 weeks of Clomid/Nolva at 50mg/40mg? That's pretty much the standard for beginning cycles.

[robert da strongman]

oh i have never used any AAS.

[Little Bear]

ahhh okay. Well if you were interested in a beginning cycle I pretty much just set one up for ya dude. Pretty much a first cycle should be a long estered test only so you can see how you react to test. If you were to go into using other substances along with test on a first cycle that would cause problems since if something were to cause you sides you wouldn't know how to treat it correctly since you wouldn't know which of the compounds was causing it. Following me?

[robert da strongman]

following

length?
what about concerns for making a weight class?

[Little Bear]

As far as length goes it's good to run a first cycle for about 12 weeks. It takes about 3 to 4 weeks for the long estered test to really kick in so most people (after their first cycle of course) run orals to kick start it off. Typically those are like dbol (which will give you serious water retension), tbol (milder and less water retention), var (better for strength gains and less retension and won't aromatize), halo (strength :) ), and the list goes on. It all depends what your goals are and how you want to run things.

It depends on what weight class you wanted to get into and how far away from competition you are. I mean if you're already on the brink of a weight class and don't want to hit that next weight class you'd have to alter your diet of course and possibly the AAS. You really have to have your goals set up ahead of time and then figure out how to reach those through correct diet and AAS supplementation if you were to run a cycle.

[Little Bear]

There's also the option of looking into peptides instead of gear. You'd definitely have to do some research into it, but the weight gains are nearly as much (unless run with AAS/slin/gh) and your injuries or anything involved with that sort of thing do heal up quicker. Bodyfat does drop and you get a better feeling in general. Just have to be careful with those due to the prolactin levels, but that's easily taken care of.

[robert da strongman]

how bout simple...haha.

for strength. test, var, or halo??

[Little Bear]

haha test is great for anything dude. A great saying is just straight up Test is Best!

Var and Halo are both great for strength. I always advise against oral only cycles since the gains aren't nearly as good and it's hard to keep them post cycle (also injections are always better) though so those should be combined with either long or short estered test.

In the end TEST IS BEST :)

[BrotherIron]

BI and LB...school is open.

what would be a useful cycle and PCT?

given the current climate is it worth the legal risk?

IMHO the best first cycle would be Test Cyp @ 400mg EW taking shots 2x week on Mon/Thurs for 12 weeks. You will want to run at the very least nol @ 20mg ED throughout the course of the cycle as well as HCG @ 250- 500iu's 2x week. Anything higher than 500iu's 2x a week could possibly desensitize you which is a very bad thing.

For the PCT, which is always sticky since there are dozen of differing opinions on this, I suggest you run an AI for 6 weeks and Clomid for 4 weeks. The AI can be Letro, A-dex, or A-sin. My favorite being A-dex, which is also a GREAT choice to run throughout instead of Nolvadex (since Nol raises bad cholesterol and lipid profile) but is MUCH more expensive than the nol.

Another thing to consider is the more harsh the cycle the stronger your PCT has to be in order to allow you to return to normal and as always get your bloodwork done to see if it did or didn't work.

[BrotherIron]

One more thing Rob, how old are you? I ask you this b/c if you have insurance you can get an "endo" to write you a script for test and there is no legality issues for you worry about.

You can even possibly find one to give you GH which is VERY helpful in terms of recovery, staying lean, and building muscle.

[Little Bear]

You and I differ on the dosage for the first cycle (yours being 400 and mine being 500, but that's not a big deal really) and running nolva throughout. Personally I'd keep the nolva on hand during cycle incase you experience any estro sides, but everyone reacts differently and some people prefere to be more cautious than others. Just remember that if you're running it constantly through cycle to not run too high since it can hinder your gains.

I wholeheartedly agree with keepin adex on hand. It's one of the best AI's around.

Also, get bloodwork done before, during, and post cycle. That's very important since health is the top priority :)

[BrotherIron]

..........
Also, get bloodwork done before, during, and post cycle. That's very important since health is the top priority :)

I def agree that your health should be priority number 1. I think that is where so many go wrong, they leap before they look. Some use with little regard if any as to what sides could develop, how to properly keep their testee's functioning throughout so your body eases into the PCT easier as well as keeps more of its gains, and slack on the PCT to and therefore never fully recover.

There is truly a science to this and many of us read endo journals to see what has been done in terms of clinical studies, how did they end up, what were the outcomes and how can I adjust things to work for me better.

More isn't always better. AAS won't replace a solid diet, effective training regimens, proper rest, and cardio as needed. AAS is just the icing on the cake.