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Baal
02-09-2009, 03:27 PM
More so than ever I see a lot of forum members getting crazy with dosages. Im still confused as to why anyone would need 5g week. The idea is to be chemically enhanced. Placing all the emphasis on the drugs isn't going to get you very far. The mind set should be not just the food or amount of food, but the right food at the right time. Combine this with a good training routine and lastly drugs to enhance this synergy affect.

There are many things we need to consider before starting a cycle. I'm sure somewhere a long the line this forum will get into that. ( http://forums.rxmuscle.com/showthread.php?t=84 ) I'm just going to focus on a few cycle ideas.

If you're using 1000mg a week to get from 190lb to 210lb you'll never see the light of 275lb. We as a community really need to get back to the idea's of using the least amount you need to grow. This ensures your longevity and continuing progression in the muscle game. Something being lost is the analogy of this sport not being a sprint, its a marathon...or less is more.

First Cycle Idea's

500mg of Test a week for 10-12 weeks seems to be the normal suggestion for a first cycle. I disagree.

From my understanding the avg. natural testosterone production in males depending is ~4-9 mg daily. For our purpose we'll say 50mg weekly. When exogenous Testosterone is active in our body we no longer produce our own Test. 500mg weekly is still an increase of 9 times! This is why I'm suggesting a lower dose, of 300mg weekly.

The type of Testosterone doesn't really matter a whole lot. Testosterone is Testosterone as far as I'm concerned, but there are a few things to consider. One of them is injection frequency, and the other is peak concentration levels...which has been blown way out of proportion.

Types of Testosterone for first cycle.

Testosterone Propionate.

The first time you pin, is much like the first time you ask a girl out. You're nervous, a bit sweaty, very unsure of how it's goning to go... etc.

Frequently pinning yourself on a first cycle can be very rough for some. With Prop. we would be pinning EOD ( every other day ) Now if you feel you're going to be okay with this, then I would choose prop as it's easier to dose, being usually 100mg/ml.

Testosterone Enanthate/Cypionate

Peak blood serum levels have been extremely exaggerated on many boards. I blame this exaggeration on why we see so many people running very long cycles. There's absolutely no reason why we cannot achieve great results on an 8 week cycle.

So why do I always see Deca, EQ particularly suggested for 12 weeks at least? Well, their not exactly wrong. It only makes sense that more is more. The longer you're on ( until you reach a point of diminishing return ) the more results you will achieve, but usually an increase in side affects come with this ideology too.

You can pin Enanthate & Cypionate once a week, but I would highly suggest atleast twice a week, equally spread apart. The more frequent the injections the better. ( I may talk about that in another thread, another time. )

So here's a few reasons to stick with 8-10 week cycles.

1) Speed of Recovery.

The longer you're on the longer it will take to recover. I've seen and experienced much to often people being on 16+ week cycles and making great gains, then coming off and losing majority of it in the battle to recover. Staying on for 16 weeks and gaining 20lbs then losing 10 doesnt make much sense when you can be on for half the time, gain 10 and keep 10.

2) Frequency.

If we go by time on = time off. Then being on for an extended period of time means being off for an extended period of time. Lets face it, you're not going to keep all of your gains and the longer you're off the less you keep. This mostly applies to the bigger guys. There's no reason why you shouldn't be able to keep 225lbs naturally after obtaining it through enhancement.

Some people just prefer doing one long cycle a year and everyone has their own reasons and opinions. These are simply mine.

Doing one 6 week cycle is not going to yeild much. However when you take into consideration that after your 6 week cycle you can jump back on in 2-3 weeks is when the 'magic' happens.

I feel short burst cycles are generally great and more geared towards competitors. Planning your year out broken down into phases should have an impact on how you cycle. Many people will probably respond with short cycles are worse because of the yo'yo on your HPTA. There's a reason why I titled this 'going against the grain.' I simply just disagree with this response, for many reasons why I may discuss some later. As this post is already quite extensive.

For me I plan my year out like this....

16 week contest prep. The goal is to maintain muscle, and lose as much bodyfat as possible. Were not concerned at all about muscle gains here. After wards taking 16 weeks off = 32 weeks of the year.

Having 20 weeks left there's time for using enhancement to work on muscle growth ( bringing up weaker body parts to make yourself a better competitor ) I would rather do 6 weeks on/ 2 weeks off... repeated. Some like 12 weeks on 8 weeks off here before contest prep. Again it's all preference. I've just chosen maximal recovery time above all else.

JamesWebb
02-10-2009, 11:42 AM
i agree with starting light but I do feel there comes a time when you should push it to the limit and find where your sides vs gains are not worth it anymore. i look at it this way, if your gonna do it, do it all. a quote from a great mind "bodybuilding pussies need not apply"

Crexis
02-10-2009, 12:48 PM
I disagree with some of your points but a very nice post eitherway!

Johnny Phenomenon
02-10-2009, 12:56 PM
I think not enough people use a large enough variety of drugs in different combinations. It's important to learn what AAS combos have synergy with you as an individual. Even something as small as changing testosterone esters in a cycle can yield dramatically sufficient changes. Also, most people don't stay on long enough IMO.

maxititer
02-10-2009, 01:52 PM
That is a large number of diverse issues. It may be not so simple to draw some kind of middle line or average guideline. At present, we even do not have internationally approved TRT protocol, according WHO it have to be only testosterone based protocol. Should be quite simple.

In case of sports we have number of drugs, users with different experience and different goals. I hardly can see any consensus on drugs use as possible in near future, especially considering the fact, that new drugs and methods introduced nowadays with greater speed then ever.

With introduction of new drugs and methods the whole paradigm can change. In fact it is changing already , I would say that for information, it takes in average two years to move from private to public domain.

We will always be in pursue of balance between of effectiveness and side effects. Some long term side effects may appears like unavoidable, other things like HTPA suppression and pituitary atrophy are possible to manage much better now .

According to recent article published in The American Journal of Sports Medicine " The most severe consequences of long-term AAS use may be on the cardiovascular system" Parssinen M, Seppala T. Steroid use and long term health risks in former athletes. Sports Med. 2002;32:83-94.

One thing is hardly can be debated, - better informed decisions - better results.


Current Concepts in
Anabolic-Androgenic Steroids
Nick A. Evans,* MD
From the UCLA-Orthopaedic Hospital, Los Angeles, California


Long-Term Health Risks
The health risks associated with long-term therapeutic doses of testosterone and chronic supraphysiologic doses of AAS are unknown. With chronic AAS use, doses tend to increase and cycles become longer and more frequent, until some athletes take the drugs almost continuously.27 The
most severe consequences of long-term AAS use may be on the cardiovascular system.67 Pathological AAS-induced left ventricular hypertrophy, impaired diastolic filling, and arrhythmia may lead to an increased risk of myocardial infarction and sudden death.60,100 The risk of mortality among chronic AAS users is reported to be 4.6 times higher than non-AAS users.66 Although AASs have been proposed
as etiologic factors for some cancers,67 case reports linking these drugs with hepatic tumors, renal carcinoma, and testicular tumors are rare.21,33,57,62 There are no reports linking AAS with prostate cancer,40 and androgen treatment in older men79,88 does not induce significant increases in prostate-specific antigen.

BULLDOZER
02-28-2009, 05:37 PM
I disagree with the following bolded comments by the op.



More so than ever I see a lot of forum members getting crazy with dosages. Im still confused as to why anyone would need 5g week. The idea is to be chemically enhanced. Placing all the emphasis on the drugs isn't going to get you very far. The mind set should be not just the food or amount of food, but the right food at the right time. Combine this with a good training routine and lastly drugs to enhance this synergy affect.

There are many things we need to consider before starting a cycle. I'm sure somewhere a long the line this forum will get into that. ( http://forums.rxmuscle.com/showthread.php?t=84 ) I'm just going to focus on a few cycle ideas.

If you're using 1000mg a week to get from 190lb to 210lb you'll never see the light of 275lb. Why? We as a community really need to get back to the idea's of using the least amount you need to grow. This ensures your longevity and continuing progression in the muscle game. Something being lost is the analogy of this sport not being a sprint, its a marathon...or less is more.

First Cycle Idea's

500mg of Test a week for 10-12 weeks seems to be the normal suggestion for a first cycle. I disagree.

From my understanding the avg. natural testosterone production in males depending is ~4-9 mg daily. For our purpose we'll say 50mg weekly. When exogenous Testosterone is active in our body we no longer produce our own Test. 500mg weekly is still an increase of 9 times! This is why I'm suggesting a lower dose, of 300mg weekly. Slow boat to China (my new fav phrase)

The type of Testosterone doesn't really matter a whole lot. Testosterone is Testosterone as far as I'm concerned, BULLSHIT!! SUSPENSION KICKS WAY HARDER THAN CYP but there are a few things to consider. One of them is injection frequency, and the other is peak concentration levels...which has been blown way out of proportion.

Types of Testosterone for first cycle.

Testosterone Propionate.

The first time you pin, is much like the first time you ask a girl out. You're nervous, a bit sweaty, very unsure of how it's goning to go... etc.

Frequently pinning yourself on a first cycle can be very rough for some. With Prop. we would be pinning EOD ( every other day ) Now if you feel you're going to be okay with this, then I would choose prop as it's easier to dose, being usually 100mg/ml.

Testosterone Enanthate/Cypionate

Peak blood serum levels have been extremely exaggerated on many boards. I blame this exaggeration on why we see so many people running very long cycles. There's absolutely no reason why we cannot achieve great results on an 8 week cycle.

So why do I always see Deca, EQ particularly suggested for 12 weeks at least? Well, their not exactly wrong. It only makes sense that more is more. The longer you're on ( until you reach a point of diminishing return ) the more results you will achieve, but usually an increase in side affects come with this ideology too.

You can pin Enanthate & Cypionate once a week, but I would highly suggest atleast twice a week, equally spread apart. The more frequent the injections the better. ( I may talk about that in another thread, another time. )

So here's a few reasons to stick with 8-10 week cycles.

1) Speed of Recovery.

The longer you're on the longer it will take to recover. Not if you do correct PCT. I've seen and experienced much to often people being on 16+ week cycles and making great gains, then coming off and losing majority of it in the battle to recover. Staying on for 16 weeks and gaining 20lbs then losing 10 doesnt make much sense when you can be on for half the time, gain 10 and keep 10.

PA Viking
02-28-2009, 06:48 PM
Hey Bulldozer can you expand on what you're saying? I'm not really following you. Do you have personal experience otherwise? Not trying to be a dick, just want you to say a little more about your arguments.

BULLDOZER
02-28-2009, 06:55 PM
Hey Bulldozer can you expand on what you're saying? I'm not really following you. Do you have personal experience otherwise? Not trying to be a dick, just want you to say a little more about your arguments.
What part don't you understand?

PA Viking
02-28-2009, 07:02 PM
The length of time needed to recover in pct and why you disagree that if you use 1 g/week to get to 210 you'll never see 275

BULLDOZER
02-28-2009, 07:10 PM
The length of time needed to recover in pct and why you disagree that if you use 1 g/week to get to 210 you'll never see 275
With proper pct you should recover in about 6 weeks from your last pin. It doesn't matter if you run a 8 week cycle or a 12 week cycle you can still recover in about 6 weeks.

Who cares if someone uses a gram to put on 20lbs? Why wouldn't a person be able to get to 275? I understand that not everyone will see 275 but I know plenty of guys who got there or heavier and ran gram or more cycles their first time. The op's statement is way too general.

PA Viking
02-28-2009, 07:28 PM
Sorry about the delay, I had to make a pizza. So, would you say you can recover from a 20 week cycle in 6 weeks or is that too extreme?
And what do you think of the 6 on 2 off approach?

BULLDOZER
02-28-2009, 07:32 PM
I don't know about 5 months. That's a whole lot different then 12 weeks.

NPCKnight
02-28-2009, 08:47 PM
Baal...you are wrong. And for starters, you have obviously determined absolutes in your head. So you have created what you would see as limitation from what you seem to believe.
Let me ask you how the hell people are going to dose 300mg of test when they have 250mg ampules? Should we just now take it down another 50mg?

People should strive to learn as much as they can in terms of good advice and be able to separate it from the bad advice. They should also see for themselves what works for them and never accept anything as absolute or impossible so long as they keep striving.

maxititer
02-28-2009, 10:26 PM
With proper pct you should recover in about 6 weeks from your last pin.

if you will use naltrexone during 12-16 weeks cycle, you will no need PCT.

the time when someone loosing gains during recovery are gone.

even without naltrexone you always can keep gains with insulin and GH only.

BULLDOZER
03-01-2009, 02:58 PM
if you will use naltrexone during 12-16 weeks cycle, you will no need PCT.

the time when someone loosing gains during recovery are gone.

even without naltrexone you always can keep gains with insulin and GH only.
WTF is naltrexone? I use HCG and a SERM for recovery of HPTA. Are you saying you can completely restore HPTA with naltrexone by itself with no estrogen rebound??? Are you saying recovery of the HPTA can happen on cycle??? That sounds like a tall order or a tall tale, however you want to look at it.

BoneBz
03-01-2009, 05:35 PM
^^ I was wondering the same thing when I read this. I looked it up, it is a opioid receptor antagonist....But I found no information on how it would be useful to restore HPTA.

Johnny Phenomenon
03-01-2009, 05:54 PM
Pulled from another board:

"Naltrexone for prevention of pituitary and testicular atrophy during long AAS cycles
This valuable drug for those who running long bulking cycles was neglected for long time. It may be indeed a revolutionary drug or may remains in private domain. In any way I'm posting this abstracts here for your consideration.

Also I have full articles for most of abstracts posted here so, PM me if you feel that you really need some of those articles."

http://www.canadabodybuilding.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4955

Johnny Phenomenon
03-01-2009, 06:00 PM
^^ I was wondering the same thing when I read this. I looked it up, it is a opioid receptor antagonist....But I found no information on how it would be useful to restore HPTA.

Sometimes you have to dig a little deeper than wiki ;)

BoneBz
03-01-2009, 06:31 PM
Sometimes you have to dig a little deeper than wiki ;)

I did...The first like 5 pages on Google only gave me info about alcoholics/drug addicts and how it is used as treatment for them.

ANABOLIC1
03-01-2009, 08:20 PM
I grow better from higher dosages. I have experimented with multiple dosage protocols and have many more to go.

I will continue to increase dosages until I find that there are diminishing returns. Then I will determine next steps, but the fun in this lies in finding what works best for you.

maxititer
03-01-2009, 11:00 PM
WTF is naltrexone? I use HCG and a SERM for recovery of HPTA. Are you saying you can completely restore HPTA with naltrexone by itself with no estrogen rebound??? Are you saying recovery of the HPTA can happen on cycle??? That sounds like a tall order or a tall tale, however you want to look at it.

never be satisfied with what you already learned. I thought that I do know everything about steroids 20 years back, and still keep learning new things everyday. So do hesitate, it is well worth to learn more about naltrexone.

You can use naltrexone in very small doses during the long cycle with more then 1g per week, drugs like deca, tren, orals and same time have your own testosterone production unaffected. of course control of estrogens in case if you are using aromitizable AAS is the whole different story.
That approach is not purely theoretical, but been tested on practice many times. You can find here my thread "Mr.Naltrexone definite male" and some valuable info about naltrexone in this thread.

Please do not send me PMs with question where to buy naltrexone I cant help with that.

maxititer
03-01-2009, 11:03 PM
I grow better from higher dosages. I have experimented with multiple dosage protocols and have many more to go.

I will continue to increase dosages until I find that there are diminishing returns. Then I will determine next steps, but the fun in this lies in finding what works best for you.

I like that idea. That way you will have optimal dose for you at that moment and do not waste anything. People running into different troubles with high doses all the time.

BULLDOZER
03-01-2009, 11:18 PM
never be satisfied with what you already learned. I thought that I do know everything about steroids 20 years back, and still keep learning new things everyday. So do hesitate, it is well worth to learn more about naltrexone.

You can use naltrexone in very small doses during the long cycle with more then 1g per week, drugs like deca, tren, orals and same time have your own testosterone production unaffected. of course control of estrogens in case if you are using aromitizable AAS is the whole different story.
That approach is not purely theoretical, but been tested on practice many times. You can find here my thread "Mr.Naltrexone definite male" and some valuable info about naltrexone in this thread.

Please do not send me PMs with question where to buy naltrexone I cant help with that.
So it doesn't work with test? That's not much help.

I run test every cycle.

maxititer
03-01-2009, 11:50 PM
So it doesn't work with test? That's not much help.

I run test every cycle.

sure, it work very well, you will have no suppression and same or even better values of your own testosterone after the cycle 14-16 weeks.

BULLDOZER
03-01-2009, 11:55 PM
never be satisfied with what you already learned. I thought that I do know everything about steroids 20 years back, and still keep learning new things everyday. So do hesitate, it is well worth to learn more about naltrexone.

You can use naltrexone in very small doses during the long cycle with more then 1g per week, drugs like deca, tren, orals and same time have your own testosterone production unaffected. of course control of estrogens in case if you are using aromitizable AAS is the whole different story.
That approach is not purely theoretical, but been tested on practice many times. You can find here my thread "Mr.Naltrexone definite male" and some valuable info about naltrexone in this thread.

Please do not send me PMs with question where to buy naltrexone I cant help with that.


sure, it work very well, you will have no suppression and same or even better values of your own testosterone after the cycle 14-16 weeks.
Then what does the bolded statement mean that you posted???

Anthony
03-02-2009, 12:20 AM
From my understanding the avg. natural testosterone production in males depending is ~4-9 mg daily. For our purpose we'll say 50mg weekly. When exogenous Testosterone is active in our body we no longer produce our own Test. 500mg weekly is still an increase of 9 times! This is why I'm suggesting a lower dose, of 300mg weekly.

The type of Testosterone doesn't really matter a whole lot. Testosterone is Testosterone as far as I'm concerned, but there are a few things to consider. One of them is injection frequency, and the other is peak concentration levels...which has been blown way out of proportion.

Check out this study (http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/281/6/E1172?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=testosterone+dose-response+healthy+men&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT) - 125 mg a week (of enth) puts a hypogonadal man to 'normal'. 300 mg/wk would get you to the very high range of normal, barely super-phsyiological.

for the test-is-test point, the weight of the ester is a big factor as well as peak concentration. mg for mg suspension has around 50% more test than cyp or enth.

maxititer
03-02-2009, 01:04 AM
Then what does the bolded statement mean that you posted???

naltrexon acting on hypothalamus direct by blocking activation of u opiod receptors, if receptors do not activated, our body will keep producing own testosterone as no any exogenous steroids are presented in the body. you cannot use naltrexone to regulate level of estrogens.

you know that, if you are using high doses of aromatizable AAS you can prevent aromatization by using aromataza inhibitors.

BULLDOZER
03-02-2009, 08:42 AM
naltrexon acting on hypothalamus direct by blocking activation of u opiod receptors, if receptors do not activated, our body will keep producing own testosterone as no any exogenous steroids are presented in the body. you cannot use naltrexone to regulate level of estrogens.

you know that, if you are using high doses of aromatizable AAS you can prevent aromatization by using aromataza inhibitors.
So you do need PCT with it in the form of estro blockers when running test?

maxititer
03-02-2009, 09:10 AM
you can use aromataza inhibitors like anastrarazole, letrozole or exemestane to block activity of aromataza enzymes and that way prevent conversion of testosterone into enstrogens. That is normal practice used to control estrogens level. And becasue estrogens are much more suppressive on HTPA it is definitely good thing to do. Such things done during the cycle usually, not as PCT.

HANEYCOLEMAN
03-02-2009, 01:43 PM
Baal brother I agree with everything you post. But some on this and other forumns will still want to cross the line. I say take a long look in the mirroer at your physique and ask yourself are you a competitor or a everyday gymrat. How about some little nuckle head trying to plese the girls. All of the above makes a difference as this should give you an idea of how you should approach gear. Once again i have been trying to say these things on other boards for a long time and agree with all you have said.

note: seems to that Ball is looking out for the safety of others . while some will dissagree; alot of this info will be good for newbs.

Johnny Phenomenon
03-02-2009, 02:19 PM
Baal brother I agree with everything you post. But some on this and other forumns will still want to cross the line. I say take a long look in the mirroer at your physique and ask yourself are you a competitor or a everyday gymrat. How about some little nuckle head trying to plese the girls. All of the above makes a difference as this should give you an idea of how you should approach gear. Once again i have been trying to say these things on other boards for a long time and agree with all you have said.

note: seems to that Ball is looking out for the safety of others . while some will dissagree; alot of this info will be good for newbs.

I think that what should dictate the amount of gear you begin using is the results of your blood work. I don't think that whether or not I want to compete should play into what I put into my body. My reasons are my own, as yours are yours, and I'm not going to criticize you for whatever reasons you have for saucing up.

testboner
03-02-2009, 02:24 PM
A vast majority of recreational aas users have become a type of addict. They up they're dose in an attempt to get more results.... but they're training intensity remains lame, and they're diets also.

gman
03-02-2009, 02:37 PM
right now, the only reason I would even consider it is to get leaner. but that's not the point of using them anyway. i have always been fat, and want to see abs once in my life before I die.

I have a real fear of getting bigger because it means getting fatter, at least in my mind.

HANEYCOLEMAN
03-02-2009, 08:16 PM
I think that what should dictate the amount of gear you begin using is the results of your blood work. I don't think that whether or not I want to compete should play into what I put into my body. My reasons are my own, as yours are yours, and I'm not going to criticize you for whatever reasons you have for saucing up.


My post was not meant for you. unless you fit the description of what my post was encentuating. But its just my opinion and mine alone just as the author of this thread have said. MINE OPINION ALONE.


A vast majority of recreational aas users have become a type of addict. They up they're dose in an attempt to get more results.... but they're training intensity remains lame, and they're diets also.

SAY IT AGAIN. YOU ARE SPOT ON IN MY OPINION. THIS IS EXACTLY MY POINT. GOOD POST BRO........ DAMN CAPS

Johnny Phenomenon
03-02-2009, 08:51 PM
Fair enough. It is an educated opinion from everything you've posted that I've seen. It's just a mass stereotype. I think a lot of guys talk shit on here about there doses anyway.

HANEYCOLEMAN
03-02-2009, 09:37 PM
Fair enough. It is an educated opinion from everything you've posted that I've seen. It's just a mass stereotype. I think a lot of guys talk shit on here about there doses anyway.


exactly. it is a mass stereotype. well said. one word that sums it all up.........

maxititer
03-03-2009, 07:09 AM
Pulled from another board:

"Naltrexone for prevention of pituitary and testicular atrophy during long AAS cycles
This valuable drug for those who running long bulking cycles was neglected for long time. It may be indeed a revolutionary drug or may remains in private domain. In any way I'm posting this abstracts here for your consideration.

Also I have full articles for most of abstracts posted here so, PM me if you feel that you really need some of those articles."

http://www.canadabodybuilding.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4955

that is my old post, about 2 years old, was posted in article section on board which now does not exist, this guy waderow was also member there, unfortunately he forget to give me a credit ...


same was posted here in Jan 2008

http://www.ukiron.net/showthread.php?t=4793

Johnny Phenomenon
03-03-2009, 12:16 PM
that is my old post, about 2 years old, was posted in article section on board which now does not exist, this guy waderow was also member there, unfortunately he forget to give me a credit ...


same was posted here in Jan 2008

http://www.ukiron.net/showthread.php?t=4793

Small world :) lol

Bigboi
03-05-2009, 07:24 PM
When I read the title I thought this thread was gonna introduce something new. Same old don't abuse drug bullshit.

Bluestorm
03-07-2009, 11:01 AM
Besides the fact of abuse, many people try to compensate for a lack of nutrition.
When the dose is insane like that, it is time to step back, take a look at everything and re-vamp your game plan.