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TPT
05-23-2009, 05:49 PM
A comparative electromyographical investigation of muscle utilization patterns using various hand positions during the lat pull-down.

Signorile JF (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Signorile%20JF%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVAbstract), Zink AJ (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Zink%20AJ%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVAbstract), Szwed SP (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Szwed%20SP%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVAbstract).

Human Performance Laboratory, Department of Exercise and Sport Sciences, University of Miami, Coral Gables, Florida 33124, USA.

This study aimed at investigating the effects of different hand positions on the electromyographic (EMG) activity of shoulder muscles during the performance of the lat pull-down exercise. Ten healthy men performed 3 repetitions of the lat pull-down exercise using their experimentally determined 10RM (repetition maximum) weight. Four different common variations of the lat pull-down were used: close grip (CG), supinated grip (SG), wide grip anterior (WGA), and wide grip posterior (WGP). Normalized root mean square of the EMG (NrmsEMG) activity for the right posterior deltoid (PD), latissimus dorsi (LD), pectoralis major (PM), teres major (TM), and long head of the triceps (TLH) were recorded using surface electrodes and normalized using maximum voluntary contractions. Repeated measures analysis of variance for each muscle detected statistical differences (p < 0.05) in myoelectric activity among hand positions during both the concentric and eccentric phases of the exercise. During the concentric phase, NrmsEMG results for the LD included WGA > WGP, SG, CG. For the TLH: WGA > WGP, SG, CG and WGP > CG, SG. For the PD: CG, WGA, SG > WGP. For the PM: CG, WGA, SG > WGP. During the eccentric phase, the LD produced the following patterns: WGA > WGP, SG, CG and WGP > CG. The TLH pattern showed WGA > SG and CG. For the PD: CG > WGA, WGP. The results indicate that changes in handgrip position affect the activities of specific muscles during the lat pull-down movement. Also, performance of the lat pull-down exercise using the WGA hand position produces greater muscle activity in the LD than any other hand position during both the concentric or eccentric phases of the movement.

here is the link to the full text.
http://www.usp.br/eef/efb/efb222/jcserrao/ombro.pdf


so this a frequent question that comes up around the gyms and forums.

well signorile et al. (2002) compared different handgrips on emg activation of multiple muscles including lats, teres mj, pec mj, rear delts, and long head of the tricpes. the different handgrips were the following: close grip (i.e., hands close together forearms neutral and we commonly use this attachment for close grip rows), supinated (i.e., close grip palms up), wide grip palms down, and wide grip palms down (i.e, behind the neck pulldowns). wide grip palms up lat pulldowns anterior to the chest had the greatest amounts of activation compared to all other hand positions. this was for concentric and eccentric contractions as well.

interesting, the close grip had high activation for the pecs. we might take for granted that pec major provides humeral adduction besides the basic pressing motions. i might add decline presses and supplement with dumbell pullovers more often.

Frosty
05-24-2009, 12:25 AM
ThePhysicalTherapist,

Wide grip is definitely best overall for the lats, but it's cool to note that varying grip is still the way to go for lats. Different grips may recruit the lat less overall, but will target different fibers, for example the lower superior fibers of the lats. I think also generally the fiber type can vary and the portion of the lat during a chinup is more fast twitch than the portion with a wide grip pullup, if I'm not mistaken.

Might be a cool superset to fatigue the lats overall more hitting the right fiber types, with perhaps something like this:

1A - Shoulder-width chinup, full ROM, 5x6 (X,1,2,0) 15s rest
1B - Wide grip lat-pulldown, full ROM, 5x12 (1,1,4,0) 2 minute rest


Although it would be interesting to see how a pull-up would differ from a pull-down with the difference in closed vs. open chain movement. I've always read that the pullup is superior for development, but I never understood it.

TPT
05-24-2009, 02:43 PM
ThePhysicalTherapist,

Wide grip is definitely best overall for the lats, but it's cool to note that varying grip is still the way to go for lats. Different grips may recruit the lat less overall, but will target different fibers, for example the lower superior fibers of the lats. I think also generally the fiber type can vary and the portion of the lat during a chinup is more fast twitch than the portion with a wide grip pullup, if I'm not mistaken.

Might be a cool superset to fatigue the lats overall more hitting the right fiber types, with perhaps something like this:

1A - Shoulder-width chinup, full ROM, 5x6 (X,1,2,0) 15s rest
1B - Wide grip lat-pulldown, full ROM, 5x12 (1,1,4,0) 2 minute rest


Although it would be interesting to see how a pull-up would differ from a pull-down with the difference in closed vs. open chain movement. I've always read that the pullup is superior for development, but I never understood it.


whether a pull up or pull down is closed or open kinetic chain exercise is a bit controversal. when analyzing both movements we discriminate properties of both open and closed chain. E.g., we usually define closed chained as exercise where the terminal joints are restrained from movement. so what terminal joints reference the pull down as a closed chained exercise? the upper extremities are free relative to the fixed lower extremities so is this really a closed chain exercise? see the confusion. the framework is challenged among other descriptions with the pull up and pull down exercises. maybe we'll open up a thread on closed versus open kinetic chain exercises.

bodybuilders should also dicriminate some of the other kinesiological differences of the pull down from the pull up. e.g., since the lower extremities including the knees, ankles, feet are restrained, the hip and pelvis are relatively free. so coactivation of our spinal and hip extensors assist in the lat pull down. i.e., errector spinae, glute max, and even hamstrings. also, the thoracolumbar fascia attaches onto the pelvis. these are some examples of differences from the pull up and why the lat pull down can be such an effective exercise.

BigBilly
05-26-2009, 08:26 AM
what is wide grip anterior?

BigBilly
05-26-2009, 08:27 AM
delete post

HeavyDutyGuy
05-28-2009, 03:55 AM
Did they use the same weight for each tested version? The reason I bring this up is that while 280 lbs might be all I could do with a wide anterior grip, I can easily do in excess of 300 lbs with a palms up close grip. That same 280 lbs is going to be submaximal here, and hence less stimulation as well.

TPT
05-28-2009, 07:08 AM
Did they use the same weight for each tested version? The reason I bring this up is that while 280 lbs might be all I could do with a wide anterior grip, I can easily do in excess of 300 lbs with a palms up close grip. That same 280 lbs is going to be submaximal here, and hence less stimulation as well.


good question. the authors use a 10 rep max for each exercise. so this paper suggests actually the opposite. though most of us will pull larger loads with palms up close grip than wider gip palms down, does that mean less stimulation of wide grip palms down? many of us might prefer close grip pams up because we lift more weight but are we actually using our lats more?

well just to add to the results of this study, biceps is likely to be stressed more because of the supinated position. thus, more load is possible. but not more activation on the lats.

more stuff to think about when we train back.