PDA

View Full Version : Why is dairy calcium more effective than supplemental calcium for fat loss?



Frosty
05-27-2009, 10:47 AM
When looking at research on Ca and fat loss, dairy calcium seems to be a LOT more effective than supplemental calcium. However a lot of times the research is vague on the form of Ca used.

Are they using calcium carbonate? If so it would make sense that dairy is more effective. Or are they using other chelated forms like calcium citrate, lactate, etc?

If it's not the form, what is making dairy more effective? Does it have to lactose enhancing calcium absorption? Could it have to do with vitamin D? Some other cofactors involved like perhaps protein? Any insights as to why dairy protein may be superior to supplemental Ca for fat loss or is this just a result of the form and absorption?

RDFinders
05-27-2009, 11:22 AM
When looking at research on Ca and fat loss, dairy calcium seems to be a LOT more effective than supplemental calcium. However a lot of times the research is vague on the form of Ca used.

Are they using calcium carbonate? If so it would make sense that dairy is more effective. Or are they using other chelated forms like calcium citrate, lactate, etc?

If it's not the form, what is making dairy more effective? Does it have to lactose enhancing calcium absorption? Could it have to do with vitamin D? Some other cofactors involved like perhaps protein? Any insights as to why dairy protein may be superior to supplemental Ca for fat loss or is this just a result of the form and absorption?
they should be stating in their research design/methods section on the type of calcium, dosage, etc. i don't think carbonate would be used as it has been proven not to be absorbed effectively by humans. i would put money on citrate as lactate is harder to find. or they are feeding the subjects calcium rich foods. then ethicalness comes into play with the food sources, as more than likely it is funded by the dairy industry.

Frosty
05-27-2009, 05:57 PM
There seems to be quite a body of evidence on calcium and also dairy sources as it relates to lean body mass and fat mass. Everything I've read always shows dairy to be quite superior to supplemental calcium. Having reviewed some studies, different supplemental forms have been used including carbonate (which was effective) and citrate and malate. One study used citrate and malate and saw no benefit.

I think the superiority of diary over supplemental calcium may be related to some of these factors:

1. Enhancement from the BCAA content of milk proteins
2. Increased calcium uptake from lactose
3. Vitamin D content of dairy products
4. Absorbility of calcium
5. Angiotension converting enzyme inhibiting peptides in milk protein (whey and casein)

I will have to review the research more, but in theory I would think a whey isolate and/or concentrate plus micellar casein would have a similar impact, especially if you take supplemental vitamin D. The only thing missing would be lactose. Micellar casein has a significantly higher calcium content than whey protein alone, along with other benefits. Perhaps a 50/50 to 40/60 ratio of micellar casein to whey would be a good ratio. In theory, to get the amounts used in studies to produce benefits, you could get it from 2 protein shakes a day of 50g protein when using a whey/micellar casein blend. Supplemental vitamin D in the form of cod liver oil instead of straight fish oil. My theory is that this would be a superior method for getting the results without including dairy foods like yogurt and milk in significant enough quantities to produce results, since these foods are typically avoided by bodybuilders looking to get very lean.

RDFinders
05-27-2009, 06:04 PM
There seems to be quite a body of evidence on calcium and also dairy sources as it relates to lean body mass and fat mass. Everything I've read always shows dairy to be quite superior to supplemental calcium. Having reviewed some studies, different supplemental forms have been used including carbonate (which was effective) and citrate and malate. One study used citrate and malate and saw no benefit.

I think the superiority of diary over supplemental calcium may be related to some of these factors:

1. Enhancement from the BCAA content of milk proteins
2. Increased calcium uptake from lactose
3. Vitamin D content of dairy products
4. Absorbility of calcium
5. Angiotension converting enzyme inhibiting peptides in milk protein (whey and casein)

I will have to review the research more, but in theory I would think a whey isolate and/or concentrate plus micellar casein would have a similar impact, especially if you take supplemental vitamin D. The only thing missing would be lactose. Micellar casein has a significantly higher calcium content than whey protein alone, along with other benefits. Perhaps a 50/50 to 40/60 ratio of micellar casein to whey would be a good ratio. In theory, to get the amounts used in studies to produce benefits, you could get it from 2 protein shakes a day of 50g protein when using a whey/micellar casein blend. Supplemental vitamin D in the form of cod liver oil instead of straight fish oil. My theory is that this would be a superior method for getting the results without including dairy foods like yogurt and milk in significant enough quantities to produce results, since these foods are typically avoided by bodybuilders looking to get very lean.
that is interesting on having to suppl vit D as all you need to do is go outside and spend sometime getting real sun without sunscreen. very interesting reading. i don't necessarily get into promoting calcium or calcium rich foods for weight loss. just my philosophy. personally i just think it is a gimic.

Frosty
05-27-2009, 06:51 PM
that is interesting on having to suppl vit D as all you need to do is go outside and spend sometime getting real sun without sunscreen. very interesting reading. i don't necessarily get into promoting calcium or calcium rich foods for weight loss. just my philosophy. personally i just think it is a gimic.

Regarding sun and vitamin D. Sun IS a good source of vitamin D, but there are factors that can reduce the effectiveness:

1. Lattitude. More northern climates sun does little for vitamin D.

2. You need a lot of skin exposure, for example sun bathing.

3. Time of day is a huge factor, the most effective time being around 1 pm.

4. Seasons. Most places very little vitamin D would be made even staying in the sun in winter time.

5. Skin color. Dark skinned people need a ton more sun exposure than fair skinned. Combine dark skin and higher lattitudes and vitamin D supplementation is an absolute requirement.

6. Haze, smog, and cloud cover obviously reduce the light needed to produce vitamin D.

7. UVB rays are needed to create vitamin D, while UVA destroys it. The problem is sun exposure through glass like in a car, house, or office, will filter out the UVB (in modern glass) while allowing UVA through. If you have any decent skin expsure for any length, this can reduce vitamin D levels.

8. Showering! Washing with soap after laying out in the sun will reduce the amount of vitamin D produced. It can actually take days to fully produce vitamin D from sun in the skin.

However if applicable, sun exposure in moderate amounts depending on skin tone is a great source of vitamin D. Many instances it just isn't a viable option, though. But it does have cool feedback systems to prevent excessive production of vitamin D.

RDFinders
05-27-2009, 08:01 PM
Regarding sun and vitamin D. Sun IS a good source of vitamin D, but there are factors that can reduce the effectiveness:

1. Lattitude. More northern climates sun does little for vitamin D.

2. You need a lot of skin exposure, for example sun bathing.

3. Time of day is a huge factor, the most effective time being around 1 pm.

4. Seasons. Most places very little vitamin D would be made even staying in the sun in winter time.

5. Skin color. Dark skinned people need a ton more sun exposure than fair skinned. Combine dark skin and higher lattitudes and vitamin D supplementation is an absolute requirement.

6. Haze, smog, and cloud cover obviously reduce the light needed to produce vitamin D.

7. UVB rays are needed to create vitamin D, while UVA destroys it. The problem is sun exposure through glass like in a car, house, or office, will filter out the UVB (in modern glass) while allowing UVA through. If you have any decent skin expsure for any length, this can reduce vitamin D levels.

8. Showering! Washing with soap after laying out in the sun will reduce the amount of vitamin D produced. It can actually take days to fully produce vitamin D from sun in the skin.

However if applicable, sun exposure in moderate amounts depending on skin tone is a great source of vitamin D. Many instances it just isn't a viable option, though. But it does have cool feedback systems to prevent excessive production of vitamin D.
you don't need to sunbath to make vitamin D. and yes, darker skin people need more sun exposure due to the melanin content of our skins, but that doesn't equate to 2 hours in the sun. max time 15 minutes. that isn't a lot of time. and as long as the skin does not have sunscreen on it, you can make it with small amounts of your skin being exposed...i.e. hands, feet, face. i think we will see more vitamin D def as our lives take us inside more and we spend less and less time outdoors. and with getting daily sun exposure, your body taking 24 hours to make it isn't that long of a time. we spend years in the gym breaking our muscles down to grow them and that takes years. 24 hours is very small compared to that.

Frosty
05-27-2009, 08:54 PM
you don't need to sunbath to make vitamin D. and yes, darker skin people need more sun exposure due to the melanin content of our skins, but that doesn't equate to 2 hours in the sun. max time 15 minutes. that isn't a lot of time. and as long as the skin does not have sunscreen on it, you can make it with small amounts of your skin being exposed...i.e. hands, feet, face. i think we will see more vitamin D def as our lives take us inside more and we spend less and less time outdoors. and with getting daily sun exposure, your body taking 24 hours to make it isn't that long of a time. we spend years in the gym breaking our muscles down to grow them and that takes years. 24 hours is very small compared to that.

My point wasn't length of time but rather how much vitamin D overall is produced when you wash the skin with soap.

There's no way partial skin exposure of arms and face for 15 minutes is going to produce enough vitamin D.

http://ageing.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/15/1/35

With 30 minutes of exposure blood levels of 25-hydroxycholocalciferol increased by 7.4 ng/mL after 4 weeks of daily sun. So if you have a low vitamin D status of 20ng/mL and you spent 30 minutes in the sun every day wearing clothing, you may increase your vitamin D to 27ng/mL, which is still very suboptimal (optimal being 40-50ng/mL), which is DOUBLE the "max" time you said to produce enough vitamin D.

And still, what about winter time? You're not getting vitamin D from sun. Vitamin D levels without supplemental form is going to drop dramatically in the winter months, especially at higher latitudes. And of course, darker skinned people will need a lot more sun exposure.

Frosty
05-28-2009, 02:25 AM
Also, a high protein diet is better for calcium absorption. Vitamin D + high protein diet + high dairy calcium sounds like a great combination.

I use Trueprotein.com's protein mixes. A 50/50 mix of whey isolate and micellar casein would yield approx 945mg calcium per 50g protein. 2 of these a day would supply more than enough calcium for the effects in the studies. The casein portion having more anti-catabolic properties, as well as other beneficial things. Sounds like a win-win situation and simple application of the research. Essentially, cod liver oil instead of fish oil plus micellar casein/whey isolate blends 2x per day.

This would also be great for mass gain diets as well, as fat accumulation is reduced with the higher dairy calcium diets.

Frosty
05-28-2009, 01:33 PM
I think making sure you have good magnesium status is also important for the calcium in dairy to do its job:

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/15/3/133

"Despite an adequate calcium intake, serum calcium levels fell markedly in both subjects as the hypomagnesemia persisted."

Perhaps this is why low magnesium increases parathyroid hormone to regulate calcium balance since calcium lowers even with adequate intake in low magnesium status. Increase in parathyroid hormone increasing conversion of 25-hydroxycholocalciferol to the active 1,25-hydroxy vitamin D, which would then lead to a reduction of the fat loss benefits of the calcium.

I venture to guess that contest dieting is a magnesium-depleting diet as most people do it. This would lead to lower magnesium levels which most people are probably deficient in, which would then lead to lower serum levels of Ca, which would increase parathyroid hormone. There is an inverse relationship with insulin sensitivity and parathyroid hormone, and apparently 1,25-hydroxyvitamin D is also inversely related to the fat loss you see with calcium. So adequate magnesium status is essential in reaping the benefits of supplemental dairy calcium for fat loss, plus you get all the other benefits of adequate magnesium status like better insulin and blood sugar control, and it being supportive of testosterone levels in males. Vitamin D is also needed in proper absorption of Mg.

Frosty
05-28-2009, 01:44 PM
I hypothesize that the animal form of vitamin K, vitamin K2 (not K1) plays a synergistic role with vitamin D for proper Ca metabolism, and may play a role in this whole process we're interested in, i.e. fat loss and reduction of fat gain in either a fat loss diet or a muscle gaining diet.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/11/081126122211.htm

This is an interesting paper on K1 showing some effectiveness on insulin sensitivity, but I do have to wonder about effectiveness of K2 since it's much more active. Information on vitamin K2 is fairly limited as it's not been known for as long, but I will see what I can find. I would guess that cod liver oil plus vitamin K2 supplementation, along with the protein shake blend I mentioned and adequate magnesium status is all inter-related when it comes to fat loss and reduction of fat gain.

natron
05-28-2009, 03:10 PM
Although rarely listed, elemental calcium is the important thing to look at.

Frosty
05-28-2009, 03:15 PM
Although rarely listed, elemental calcium is the important thing to look at.

I'm looking to avoid supplemental calcium and simplify the application. Replacing fish oil with cod liver oil and using a whey/casein shake mix instead of pure whey for a meal replacement eliminates the need for additional supplements.

However magnesium and vitamin K2 essentially requires supplementation. K2 isn't found much in most foods, and the ones it is found more in typically aren't eaten such as goose liver, liver, raw grassfed dairy especially grassfed fermented dairy products that are made from spring-time milk, and things like miso and natto in good amounts. The amounts are also highly variable which I don't like, so supplementing with vitamin K2 is the easy way to make sure you get enough...I'd just guess that using both forms MK4 and MK7 is the ideal way to go, and I know Life Extension has a vitamin K supplement that has both along with vitamin K1.

natron
05-28-2009, 03:26 PM
I'm looking to avoid supplemental calcium and simplify the application. Replacing fish oil with cod liver oil and using a whey/casein shake mix instead of pure whey for a meal replacement eliminates the need for additional supplements.

However magnesium and vitamin K2 essentially requires supplementation. K2 isn't found much in most foods, and the ones it is found more in typically aren't eaten such as goose liver, liver, raw grassfed dairy especially grassfed fermented dairy products that are made from spring-time milk, and things like miso and natto in good amounts. The amounts are also highly variable which I don't like, so supplementing with vitamin K2 is the easy way to make sure you get enough...I'd just guess that using both forms MK4 and MK7 is the ideal way to go, and I know Life Extension has a vitamin K supplement that has both along with vitamin K1.

I hear you.

The only thing I'm trying to establish with individuals is that calcium supplementation, requires a little knowledge.

The label content is not the amount of calcium available for the body to use, and the delivery method also has to be questioned.

When buying Calcium, here is a few things to look for...
1) Elemental calcium content (with this, the source does not matter)
2) Soft gels/capsules/liquid, over tablets/caplets
3) in combination with elemental magnesium/vitamin D, possibly magnese.

RDFinders
06-27-2009, 03:56 PM
My point wasn't length of time but rather how much vitamin D overall is produced when you wash the skin with soap.

There's no way partial skin exposure of arms and face for 15 minutes is going to produce enough vitamin D.

http://ageing.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/15/1/35

With 30 minutes of exposure blood levels of 25-hydroxycholocalciferol increased by 7.4 ng/mL after 4 weeks of daily sun. So if you have a low vitamin D status of 20ng/mL and you spent 30 minutes in the sun every day wearing clothing, you may increase your vitamin D to 27ng/mL, which is still very suboptimal (optimal being 40-50ng/mL), which is DOUBLE the "max" time you said to produce enough vitamin D.

And still, what about winter time? You're not getting vitamin D from sun. Vitamin D levels without supplemental form is going to drop dramatically in the winter months, especially at higher latitudes. And of course, darker skinned people will need a lot more sun exposure.
i had to go back to consult my sources from school as i have forgotten more about nutrition than most people learn. once a week full body exposure can produce up to 10000IU of vitamin D. 5-30 minutes of face, hands and arms 3 times a week is enough to make vitamin D. so even in the winter you can still make it. the biggest limiting factor for vitamin D - sunscreen, staying indoors and aging skin. and the study abstract you included is old - 1985 and a very small group. nothing was mentioned about ethnicity, but assuming in australia, everyone was white and male.

Frosty
07-02-2009, 04:09 AM
If getting 5-30 minutes of sun on your hands, face, and arms 3 times a week is enough to get optimal vitamin D levels, why are so many people low in vitamin D?