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Youngguns
05-27-2009, 02:01 PM
I'm confused. A friend of mine, 170lbs 5'4'' female, is looking to do the keto diet, but I'm having trouble finding macros for her. I'm guessing she's at around 35% bf. Help? 5 meals or 6? She's been weight training for 3 months already.

johngorman
05-27-2009, 02:07 PM
I'm confused. A friend of mine, 170lbs 5'4'' female, is looking to do the keto diet, but I'm having trouble finding macros for her. I'm guessing she's at around 35% bf. Help? 5 meals or 6? She's been weight training for 3 months already.
the official keto thread is full of ways to come up with #'s. i personally think you should find out the calories she's been consuming, if she's losing, how long she's been dieting, etc. and then build a keto diet based on THOSE numbers.

there's a zillion different ways to put one together.

sonicwaste
05-27-2009, 03:02 PM
Here's a link to Mr. X's CKD diet
http://forums.isteroids.com/mr-xs-articles-forum/32045-ckd-manual-mr-x.html


Here is a worksheet that will calculate all the macros:

http://www.noetzel.net/ckd/default.asp

I have been using this for the past 3 weeks and it really works if you follow the macros from the worksheet and most of the suggestions from MR. X. These 2 links make figuring out the CKD very very easy.

I'm switching to the Palumbo Diet with post workout carbs tomorrow. So I will be able to compare the two pretty soon.

Youngguns
05-27-2009, 03:31 PM
The worksheet looks good, but it doesn't take into account muscle mass... is it for an "average" person?

Frosty
05-27-2009, 03:41 PM
If she got in 170g pro and 40-45% fat and <25g carbs a day she'd be fine with some exercise. You can always adjust as needed because metabolic rate is a changing variable and there are no set energy expenditure numbers.

Youngguns
05-27-2009, 03:49 PM
If she got in 170g pro and 40-45% fat and <25g carbs a day she'd be fine with some exercise. You can always adjust as needed because metabolic rate is a changing variable and there are no set energy expenditure numbers.
The spread sheet would be a little more difficult because it changes daily. 170g is ok at 35% bf? She works out hard with weights 4 times per week and does an hour of low intensity cardio. so around 110 grams of fat per day?

That would be close to 110g fat? For a refeed would it be the same as the Palumbo diet where it's the last meal of the day on the weekend with plenty of carbs?

Frosty
05-27-2009, 04:37 PM
The spread sheet would be a little more difficult because it changes daily. 170g is ok at 35% bf? She works out hard with weights 4 times per week and does an hour of low intensity cardio. so around 110 grams of fat per day?

That would be close to 110g fat? For a refeed would it be the same as the Palumbo diet where it's the last meal of the day on the weekend with plenty of carbs?


You butchered the math dude. 170g protein and 40-45% fat would be like 50-62g fat.

If you want her to run an intro phase fat can be a little higher to facilitate adaptation, done for 2 weeks. Then 1 carb meal as the 5th (last) meal of the day. Then go with the above amounts and the only change is the carb meal as the last meal once a week. Since she's obese it would help if she just ate something like a steak and a baked potato, or something like that...no "cheat meal".

Youngguns
05-27-2009, 05:45 PM
You butchered the math dude. 170g protein and 40-45% fat would be like 50-62g fat.

If you want her to run an intro phase fat can be a little higher to facilitate adaptation, done for 2 weeks. Then 1 carb meal as the 5th (last) meal of the day. Then go with the above amounts and the only change is the carb meal as the last meal once a week. Since she's obese it would help if she just ate something like a steak and a baked potato, or something like that...no "cheat meal".
60f
170p
20c
=1300 calories, that's enough for day to day? On the refeed day, just one baked potato with a steak? She does pretty intense workouts, currently doing a 4 day split bodybuilding routine. How is one hour of low intensity per day?

Frosty
05-27-2009, 08:39 PM
60f
170p
20c
=1300 calories, that's enough for day to day? On the refeed day, just one baked potato with a steak? She does pretty intense workouts, currently doing a 4 day split bodybuilding routine. How is one hour of low intensity per day?

At 170 lbs and 35% BF she's obese and has 60 lbs of fat on her body. That's enough energy to last 3.5 months :) The fatter a person is, the more they tolerate energy restriction since they can mobilize a lot more body fat for energy. Many studies to protein-sparing modified fasts that range from 500-800 calories or so and are highly successful in people that don't train. Mauro DiPasquale's Radical Diet is 800-1000 cal per day for women. 1300 calories with that much protein will produce rapid fat loss. Worst case scenario she could add a little extra food if needed and still lose a lot of fat, but she should be okay. Might wanna go like 100g fat for the first 2 weeks to make adaptation easier physically and mentally, though.

juggernaut
05-27-2009, 10:32 PM
What's the difference between the CKD calculation and Dave's diet? Isnt Dave's this:

6 meals a day divided by
1.Figure out your lean body mass.
2. Multiply lean body mass by 1.5 for grams of protein per day.
3. Multiply gram of protein per day x 4 to figure out calories from protein.
4. Divide calories of protein per day by 9 to get grams of fat needed per day.


Whats big deal between this and the other? Ultimately, isnt the result the same, ketosis?

sonicwaste
05-28-2009, 03:04 AM
the end result is the same.

Mr. X's worksheet is based upon total weight and not LBM. Maybe a shortfall of the program, but I've found it to be super effective.

Calculating BMR can be super tricky anyway and almost impossible when you take into account activity factors.

Macros, BMR, daily caloric intake are just educated guesses and spots to shoot for. Ultimately you have to feel it out and adjust it to what works for you.

juggernaut
05-28-2009, 07:26 AM
One thing that puzzles me is how DP gets his refeed macro numbers. I understand completely where he goes with the protein and fat, but how does it fare on a refeed day? Does he include one?

juggernaut
05-28-2009, 07:30 AM
60f
170p
20c
=1300 calories, that's enough for day to day? On the refeed day, just one baked potato with a steak? She does pretty intense workouts, currently doing a 4 day split bodybuilding routine. How is one hour of low intensity per day?Actually, Lyle McDonald's PSMF diet goes lower than that and there's more versatility on the category dieter that your girl is. If by looking at her bf percentage, she'd be a category three dieter, getting 2 "free" cheat meals a week. Keeps you a lot saner too. If you want, I can help you setup a PSMF schedule. PM me and I will be more than happy to help. I have several clients on it and all have lost enormous weight in a short amount of time. The trick is knowing how to get off.

Youngguns
05-28-2009, 11:47 AM
Actually, Lyle McDonald's PSMF diet goes lower than that and there's more versatility on the category dieter that your girl is. If by looking at her bf percentage, she'd be a category three dieter, getting 2 "free" cheat meals a week. Keeps you a lot saner too. If you want, I can help you setup a PSMF schedule. PM me and I will be more than happy to help. I have several clients on it and all have lost enormous weight in a short amount of time. The trick is knowing how to get off.
It says I can't pm you.

With two cheat meals, how long does each one throw you out of ketosis?

Do you have a similar client? If so, what's her diet like?

juggernaut
05-28-2009, 11:57 AM
I had something checked. Try again.

juggernaut
05-28-2009, 11:59 AM
With two cheat meals, I would space them about 4 days apart. It isnt important to enter ketosis, it happens almost every time you wake up, regardless. It does happen occasionally, but it isn't necessary for fat loss. It's not the all-important phase to enter.

Youngguns
05-28-2009, 10:07 PM
Really? Interesting, why does Dave tell us that if we eat over 50 grams we'll come out and it won't work right? What type of cheat meal is it and when? How much?

juggernaut
05-29-2009, 06:09 AM
Really? Interesting, why does Dave tell us that if we eat over 50 grams we'll come out and it won't work right? What type of cheat meal is it and when? How much?He's right. I'm only offering a different way to diet. This has been proven effective not only by research, but also by countless "real-world" cases. Dave's the man when it comes to dieting. This is simply a different approach.
I cant eat one cheat meal a week. I'll go crazy. However, I have several clients who dont blink twice when it comes to not cheating.

Myth
05-29-2009, 12:47 PM
Kyle, remember bro, "being in ketosis" is grossly over-rated, as all that is needed for fat loss is a caloric deficit. Keto diets are extremely effective for fat loss, but just because you go out of ketosis occasionally doesn't mean you aren't still burning fat, as you're still in a deficit. In fact, the main reason I like keto dieting is the awesome mood/energy levels...NOT the fat loss, as the rate of fat loss (in my experience) is the same as being on a carb diet.