dieting with carbs vs. low carb or keto

[urstrulyhb]

i have done 3 shows before. first show i dieted with a lot of carbs and other 2 i did very low carb. i looked better on a lower carb diet however either way by the end of the prep my cardio was relatively high. fast forward.... i havent done a show in 3 yrs. i prepped last yr but by the end of it i felt like i looked pretty crappy compared to the other times i had competed. i went to the dr. found out i have pcos... dr put me on medication and the new season hasnt started yet. i still want to compete i just need to figure out the best diet approach for me.
-so i am currently working with someone who has me on a moderate/high carb diet (well i consider it to be) of 160-175 g carbs daily.
- my dr put me on metformin but also told me that if i ever want to lose weight i need to eat healthy and eat very low carbs or keto type diet.
- my diet person disagrees and feels like the metformin will do its job.
- i am not opposed to doing low carb or keto but everyone keeps throwing around "metabolic damage" and it just makes me wonder what the best/smartest approach is. (i do not believe i have md.. everytime i have dieted for a show i have been able to get back to my precontest weight w/in 3 months)
- at this point i have been dieting about 3 weeks and i have not dropped any weight. i know 3 weeks is not long but you would think i would have at least dropped 1 lb.
my diet and training are in check. i am not doing to much cardio and im lifting about 4-5 days a week (depending on the workouts)

[sassy69]

I can't help from the PCOS side - I've done several shows - most w/ carb cycling, a couple w/ extended keto. I personally found keto to be the easiest and most comfortable, but given the fact I did 2 shows back to back, it cost me a lot of muscle mass and people said I looked pretty haggard by the second show. I've had no issues with post-show recovery in any of my shows (after I figured out how to manage "doing shows" - like don't gorge on junk food immediately after your show and keep drama out of your life while you're doing a show).

Its awkward when you're stuck between two people you are relying on to guide you to a particular goal. I will defer to others w/ PCOS experience for more details or actual experience, but some thoughts I would have to deal with this:

- talk to both of them and ask WHY they disagree - if they won't discuss the whole thing w/ you w/ valid arguments, then I'd be looking for other people to help you. I can't stand when someone isn't versed enough in what I need them for and they won't at least admit it so I can move on to someone who is the right person. If they don't have good answers for you, ask for references to someone who does or at least can help you understand the question more.

- Possibly consider carb cycling as an alternative to a full keto or high carb thing.

- Me personally, i'd always be looking for a way to avoid using pharmaceuticals - and I'm not sure if you're dealing w/ any side effects of the metformin - that might be a motivation to lean towards getting off it and relying on diet. Just a thought.

- metabolic damage - As mentioned I've done keto, and also gone thru a flavor of what I'd call metabolic damage that took me a couple years to work through (and was not due to any keto dieting - didn't even know what keto was until 2 yrs later) - I've also known many people who have done keto w/ no issues. IMO the metabolic damage is from overdieting / overstressing / overtraining. To that end I'd not make that a reason to not do keto. The point in dieting is to do it in a safe and controlled manner and not be driven by OMG I NEED TO LOSE WEIGHT OMGOMGOMGOMGOMG ... pay attention to both progress and negative effects and constantly adjust accordingly. And always put your health before hitting a show date, and in this case, if it happens that whatever approach you take is affected by some change or aspect of PCOS, set the priority dealing w/ the PCOS adjustment before hitting a show date. There's ALWAYS another show. You don't get a new body.

-With your diet progress now - I'd tell anyone who is looking to make a change in body composition - in the extreme, just toss your scale and measure progress by how you look, how your clothes fit, progress pix. But the real point is that the scale, in and of itself, is only measuring the gravitational attraction of the sum total of your bones, muscle, bodyfat and water weight. I can point to one phase of a prep I started in 2005 after 5 years off: when I started prep at 16 weeks out, my body's comfortable set point was around 168 lb - so during the first 5 weeks of that prep my progress was 8% bodyfat loss but only 2 lbs by the scale. If I only judged progress by the scale I probably would've just given up in frustration. But by skinfold caliper, how my pants fit and just how I looked it was very apparent that I was making big body comp changes. Anyway to that point, are you noticing any changes in how you look / how things fit / your energy levels / any looseness in skin or that weird deflated look you start noticing when you're dropping bodyfat around the midsection? Look at ALL of those indicators before you go into a panic state looking for some sort of change in your protocol.

Hope that helps a bit. I'm sure you will get some good feedback here, but I'd also do more googling on things like PCOS / Keto / Composition just to find any info / experience out there. And anythign you do find, bring back to your nutritionist and your doc to see what they say.

[urstrulyhb]

i have considered getting a second opinion by a dr if i even have the condition bc my blood work does not indicate anything to be wrong... everything is with in normal limits other than my insulin levels being on the upper end of normal. they did do an ultrasound which was the dr's original confirmation. that being said i have always been able to maintain my weight fine,,,, its dropping that is difficult.

- i do appreciate your response and will continue to research.
- im also glad to hear that you had no issues with keto post show bc i have been told from others its a rebound waiting to happen.. you will gain 40-60 lbs post show etc to the point that even trying keto kinda freightens me.
- at this point i dont have much to loose so ill try anything at least 1x

[sassy69]

i have considered getting a second opinion by a dr if i even have the condition bc my blood work does not indicate anything to be wrong... everything is with in normal limits other than my insulin levels being on the upper end of normal. they did do an ultrasound which was the dr's original confirmation. that being said i have always been able to maintain my weight fine,,,, its dropping that is difficult.

- i do appreciate your response and will continue to research.
- im also glad to hear that you had no issues with keto post show bc i have been told from others its a rebound waiting to happen.. you will gain 40-60 lbs post show etc to the point that even trying keto kinda freightens me.
- at this point i dont have much to loose so ill try anything at least 1x

This has a lot more to do w/ the whole pre & post-show protocol. It doesn't matter what your diet is - if you make a sudden and dramatic change in what / how / amount you're eating after months of very intentional, consistent and controlled dieting , you're going to rebound. Esp w/ keto you're manipulating your response to / dependence on carbs so you really need to manage a 'dismount' from competition dieting to maintenance dieting w/ small, incremental changes that your body can adapt to at the appropriate pace to minimize those 'seeking homeostasis' responses.

[tammyp]

you did not lists your stats, but that carb range IMO is more in the building phase and not for a cutting phase. i wouldnt go keto either, and look into a cycle approach as jill mentioned. what is your total macros?

[urstrulyhb]

you did not lists your stats, but that carb range IMO is more in the building phase and not for a cutting phase. i wouldnt go keto either, and look into a cycle approach as jill mentioned. what is your total macros?

i currently weigh 148. im 5'2 my diet looks like this

-4 egg whites
3/4 c oatmal
5 almonds
- 1 s pp + 1/4 c oats
-4 oz chicken + 3/4 c brown rice
-1 scoop pp +1/4 c oats
-4 oz beef + 4 oz russet potato
post workout 1 scoop pp with 1/2 scoop karbolyn
-4 egg whites + spinach
my bf is probably at about 22%

[sassy69]

If you're trying to cut IMO a carb cycle would be better. Not sure how that plays into the PCOS but I'd be asking the nutritionist why the high carbs and does this person know much about contest prep? My experience w/ nutritionists outside the scope of "Fitness" or specifically trying to lean out is they really like carbs for the 'normal' person. Relative to the PCOS I'd also be asking what the point is of higher carbs while using Metformin to manage the spikes. Not being a doc but just looking at logic, it seems like a 2-pronged approach w/ the metformin & diet w/o going too extreme in either direction.

Just some thoughts - I always try to find some degree of continuity and common goal in all parts of whatever is the environment you're trying to operate in - otherwise you either need to pick one of the two opposing endpoints, or make a compromise somewhere to get to the goal you want. Trying to both never really works well.

[urstrulyhb]

do you think ~1600kcal to drop is to high? i am researching other prep people.. the guy i am working with preps alot of people for shows but i get the feeling he has one old school approach and thats just the way its gonna be for him.. ill mention carb cycling possibilities to him. thanks

[sassy69]

If you're at the beginning of a cut its probably fine - I'm just suggesting the consistently high carbs might be better approached w/ a carb rotation.

[TonyElTigre]

I think your fine bro the thing you have to remember when it comes to carbs
is that you want to count them as you go. Always accurately count your
carbs and make sure you are limiting what you are actually eating and you
will be fine

[urstrulyhb]

I think your fine bro the thing you have to remember when it comes to carbs
is that you want to count them as you go. Always accurately count your
carbs and make sure you are limiting what you are actually eating and you
will be fine

i count and measure everything to a T

[tammyp]

no fat or veggies in there really. its not nutritionally sound IMO.

[sassy69]

no fat or veggies in there really. its not nutritionally sound IMO.

Have to agree - its possible we don't know details on supplements, e.g. greens or EFAs, but this is one of the hitches when you're talking diet - if you're doing keto, the details matter because the whole point is to essentially remove your complex carbs and watch the carbs from fibrous sources so you can achieve ketosis. If you're doing a higher carb diet, then it is that much mroe imporant to get good fibrous carbs & fats to help w/ digestion, etc.

[urstrulyhb]

Have to agree - its possible we don't know details on supplements, e.g. greens or EFAs, but this is one of the hitches when you're talking diet - if you're doing keto, the details matter because the whole point is to essentially remove your complex carbs and watch the carbs from fibrous sources so you can achieve ketosis. If you're doing a higher carb diet, then it is that much mroe imporant to get good fibrous carbs & fats to help w/ digestion, etc.

other than omegas. And al

[urstrulyhb]

Other than omegas and almonds, no other fats. I eat veggies 2x a day usually cooked into some meal such as an omelet. - how long do you give someone. The benefit of the doubt before switching coaches? Sorry for typos... My iPad keeps freezing