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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flex500 View Post
    All I'm saying is think if the below happened....

    1. recreational drug tests/random testing

    2. absolute outlaw of diuretics...you take em 1 year ban, then banned for life

    3. Must pass have AND pass physical exam each year...you don't pass a physical you don't compete.

    4. Overall general "attitude" of the ifbb towards better health practices. An organization pushing towards an awareness of health...a culture of promoting a safe sport

    5. full on investigations and reporting of the deaths at least as much as possible


    I mean...what if it just started there?
    Im clueless about diruretics , have no clue what risk they cause. Never taken them. But everything else seems to a good start . I don't thinks its a bad thing to make sure they pass a physical and drug test for recreational drugs.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granite-Dawg View Post
    When we make the decision to lead this life style, it should be a well educated one. In our society when the shit hits the fan we seem to want to blame others for the decisions that we make. I mean hell if I was a coal miner I know black lung is a possibility. In the nfl all of the old players knew concussions were probable. What I'm saying is there is a price for every choice we make.
    True about coal miners and NFL players, but why do you see so many old timers on the list for the law suit against the NFL ?

  3. #18
    Super Moderator sassy69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMX View Post
    Im clueless about diruretics , have no clue what risk they cause. Never taken them. But everything else seems to a good start . I don't thinks its a bad thing to make sure they pass a physical and drug test for recreational drugs.
    Of all the stuff that people use for bodybuilding, any bad effects are mostly the result of the ongoing use / abuse, your own family & medical history and the general lifestyle that goes with it. The stuff that is the dramatic killer that you see at stage time, is the diuretics. The last thing you can manipulate up to stage time, is your water. Thus the diuretics. However, within "water" is really your body's electrolyte balance. Throwing that of is what causes people to drop dead on stage. Just anecodotally, you don't hear about that so much anymore. But also anecdotally, I'd counter that you don't see the conditioning that we used to see through the 90s. Now its definitely more plain old "Fucking Big".

    http://www.examiner.com/article/diur...bad-the-tragic

    Diuretics in Bodybuilding: The good, the bad, the tragic





    Athletes preparing for bodybuilding competitions strive for the most muscular and hardest look they can possibly achieve. This involves several months or years of building muscle, followed by several weeks of a restricted diet and cardiovascular training in an effort to reduce body fat to the lowest possible level to bring out all of the definition of the muscle. The judges look for the biggest, hardest and driest bodybuilder with the best shape. Rarely will a bodybuilder win a contest if he/she is not the hardest and driest, even if his or her shape and size is superior to the other athletes. The less water you are carrying on stage, the better you will place. In the final week of preparation prior to a competition, bodybuilders strive to fill out their out the muscles with the addition of carbohydrates, and at the same time reduce fluids in the body to remove every last bit of subcutaneous fluid in between the muscle and the skin to create the fullest and driest look possible. While these athletes appear to be at the highest level of physical fitness and health while on stage, they are actually often on the brink of very serious health issues due to lack of hydration and electrolyte imbalances caused by the lack of bodily fluids.

    Reducing water from the body in preparation for a contest can be aided in a multitude of ways. Often, most or all of these methods are employed. They include cardio training in heavy garb, elimination of sodium from the diet, excessive water intake followed by a sudden and drastic reduction of water intake, drinking mineral and electrolyte free distilled water, herbs and natural water-reduction substances and most effectively; medicinal diuretics. All can be dangerous to a degree as they strive to interfere with the body's natural homeostasis of fluid and electrolyte balance and can disrupt multiple body processes. The body, however, is a master of keeping itself in a reasonable balance. It can adjust itself in most instances to this by adjusting electrolyte balances and holding on to just enough fluids to keep functioning properly. Diuretic drugs, however, are powerful enough to override the body's defenses and create havoc in the body.

    Throughout the history of bodybuilding, there have, unfortunately been several deaths and multiple hospitalizations due to contest preparation and standard bodybuilding practices. These hospitalizations and deaths are rarely due to steroids and other hormones, lifting injuries, powerful stimulant-based fat-burners or highly restrictive diets. In fact, there is no direct evidence connecting the use of anabolic steroids to the death of any athlete, only indirect or circumstantial evidence. Rather, most hospitalizations and deaths are, in fact, overwhelmingly due to the use and abuse of diuretic drugs. Some of the most famous instances include:

    In 1988, pro bodybuilder Albert Beckles collapses and convulses while on stage. He is subsequently resuscitated by paramedics and found to be suffering from diuretic-induced dehydration.

    In 1992, pro bodybuilder Mohammed Benaziza dies after competing in a contest in Europe. An autopsy shows that he was severely dehydrated and experienced cardiovascular failure. He was age 33. He had used a combination of diuretics for the show.

    In 1994, pro bodybuilder Paul Dillett cramps onstage while posing at the Arnold Classic. He is carted off the stage. Once again, the problem was extreme dehydration and electrolyte imbalance caused by Paul’s use of Lasix. Paul survived.

    There was also the 1996 case of Andreas Munzer, renowned for his freaky conditioning, who died after his liver and kidneys failed. The autopsy revealed his electrolytes were completely out of balance.
    These are just the most publicized cases; numerous other deaths and hospitalizations didn't get any publicity at all.

    To understand why they are so harmful, we must first briefly understand diuretics.

    There are three main types of diuretics; potassium-sparing, osmotic and loop diuretics:

    Osmotic diuretics - These are injectable drugs that act on the kidneys by essentially instructing the kidneys to release everything that comes in. Osmotic diuretics are non-discriminatory, meaning they remove any and all water that comes to the kidneys, regardless of proper electrolyte balance. These drugs override the function of the kidneys and can cause renal (kidney) failure. Osmotic diuretics are not overly common in bodybuilding.

    Potassium-sparing diuretics - These diuretics are milder, however create problems of their own. They reduce the re-absorption of sodium and water through the kidneys and flush them out of the body. They do, however discriminate by not flushing potassium(K) from the system. While these are slower acting and more tolerable, they can cause an excess of K in the body as they do not allow it to flush and keep the balance of electrolytes intact. This can cause, in extreme cases, cardiac dysrythmia (irregular heartbeats) and even sudden death in the most extreme cases.

    Loop diuretics - These are far and away the most commonly used diuretics in bodybuilding and the culprit in the vast majority of bodybuilding hospitalizations and deaths. Furosimide (brand name Lasix) is easily the most widely used loop diuretic and is cheap and readily available. Loop diuretics are used medicinally to treat high blood pressure and edema; and in cases of blood poisoning are used to flush the blood of toxins and foreign agents. Loop diuretics act directly on the kidneys and are another non-discriminatory diuretic in that they remove any and all fluids coming through the kidneys. They have a profound effect on the electrolyte balance as they literally flush potassium, sodium and calcium from the body with whatever fluid enters. Side effects include a drop in blood pressure, thickening of the blood (due to lack of fluids), fainting, renal failure, extreme cramping due to electrolyte imbalances, and death (due to muscular cramping of the heart). The drug is extremely powerful and, combined with other water reduction techniques employed by bodybuilders in contest preparation, it doesn't take much Lasix to cause extremely detrimental health effects.

    Recently, herbal and natural water-loss systems have improved vastly as the result of scientific research and study. Water can now be reduced to the desirable level without putting ones health or life in danger. A cutting-edge, new for 2011 example of these products is Hydradry by Allmax Nutrition. Hydradry is a 14-Day water loss system designed specifically for pre-contest weight loss. It utilizes a three-stage water depletion system with nine separate powerful plant extracts, including two forms of taraxacum, which is extracted from the dandelion plant. Water loss from Hydradry quick and effective; comparable to that of several other techniques combined. Further, Hydradry is fortified with a scientifically-balanced blend of B6, calcium, magnesium and potassium to keep these levels in the body stable.

    The dangers of medicinal diuretics can't be understated, and, are generally unnecessary for contest preparation. Whichever method you choose in order to get ready for your next contest, please be diligent and do your research thoroughly on what you are doing and do not take your gym buddies word for it.
    Last edited by sassy69; 07-07-2013 at 12:25 PM.
    "The only way you can hurt the body is not use it. Inactivity is the killer and, remember, it's never too late."
    ~Jack Lalanne



  4. #19
    OLYMPIAN Granite-Dawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMX View Post
    True about coal miners and NFL players, but why do you see so many old timers on the list for the law suit against the NFL ?
    I believe it has more to do with the money the pros make now. They want their slice. This nfl debate could go on forever. I think with the way equipment is now the game is much more after and more dangerous than ever, but it gives the appearance that the nfl is trying to help their players. I believe if you as a professional believes that big business gives two shits about you and your well being you are kidding yourself. The nfl is a big business. If n is a big business. This is the question you have to ask yourself, am I willing to do this for me?

  5. #20
    RX MEMBER rcp1936's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flex500 View Post
    All I'm saying is think if the below happened....

    1. recreational drug tests/random testing

    2. absolute outlaw of diuretics...you take em 1 year ban, then banned for life

    3. Must pass have AND pass physical exam each year...you don't pass a physical you don't compete.

    4. Overall general "attitude" of the ifbb towards better health practices. An organization pushing towards an awareness of health...a culture of promoting a safe sport

    5. full on investigations and reporting of the deaths at least as much as possible


    I mean...what if it just started there?
    How about banning entrants below 6% body fat and a limit on weight height ratio

  6. #21
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    Last month a competitor of years!!! a veteran, died in Puerto Rico prepping for a show....
    this 15 plus year veteran took............6 BUMEX.

    Yeah....Nothing else to say. pfft...crazy.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcp1936 View Post
    How about banning entrants below 6% body fat and a limit on weight height ratio
    Can't tell if you're joking or not...hope you are.
    "If you ever start taking things too seriously, just remember that we are talking monkeys on an organic spaceship flying through the universe." - Joe Rogan

  8. #23
    RX MEMBER rcp1936's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAM View Post
    Can't tell if you're joking or not...hope you are.
    Nope

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcp1936 View Post
    Nope
    Well then you're a complete fool and should frequent another forum.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flex500 View Post
    I'm not going to be politically correct because it's time for someone to start asking questions. Helloooo IFBB? Where are you? Where are the Dave Palumbo's of the world, the Bob C's, Flex Wheeler, Hany, Chris Aceto, and the other big names in the sport demanding answers and asking questions?

    Or can they and we finally openly admit we don't ask questions because this is a bullsh*t sport and we don't care?

    What am I getting at?

    When an NFL player dies literally 30 seconds after the death there are 101 questions on how football and the NFL are related (or responsible), how they could have helped or stopped the deteriorating health of the athletes etc.

    Why aren't we doing that?

    I just hung up with a friend of mine...an IFBB pro who is retired (and won many shows and was a top olympia competitor) and we spoke for about an hour here is what we talked about:

    1. a few athletes are considering and have discussed legal action related to some health situations and the IFBB. He would not elaborate...but indicated it's no joke. He firmly believes even with steroid use the IFBB could vastly improve the health of these athletes.

    2. he feels it is abundantly clear the IFBB has no concern with the health of these guys and it's time for the IFBB to step it up.

    3. Time to start recreational drug testing these guys. An important point he did make was "sure steroids are talked about but when you watch a pro contest most of these guys are abusing pain pills and other narcotics."

    4. he feels these guru's play a part. If they are going to advise these guys on everything shy of how many times to wipe their butts it's time for them to also demand answers and be a "loud voice" as he put it when these guys die.






    Many will say...these guys know the risks...that is true to an extent. ALL sports have risk at the pro level. But they should be controlled, monitored, and investigated, and not just said "f*ck it" to.

    And when people do die why is it such a big secret? Why is it "oh hush hush don't be disrespectful we can't talk about how he died" Why? let's talk about it. In every sport when a player dies immediate speculation starts if there is even a remote possibility it could be related to the sport.


    Does anybody else find it unacceptable so many of these guys die too young, nobody investigates it, nobody asks questions, and the IFBB acts like it never happened.


    end rant/
    I take what would be considered insane doses of gear, slin (especially), hgh, and for every contest I have done and will do, diuretics and I alone am singularly responsible for my adult actions.

    The NPC grants me a stage to display the physique I have developed and therein begins and ends their responsibility to me; providing the outlet.

    What you have proposed is nanny-state bullshit.

    Besides, if one is not willing to do whatever they fucking can to develop the freakiest, biggest and most shredded version of themselves that they can, there are many other outlets of physical expression for them to pursue.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flex500 View Post
    Nasser, especially doesn't belong in this bullshit, 'I need others to protect me from myself' thread.

    He was a fucking warrior deserving of far more respect than you are showing him by putting him in this fucking farce of a thread, as he knew what he was doing and never swayed from his mission for greatness.

    Here's something to ponder as well - the quest for being a 300lb freak was not mainly, if at all, pushed by the judging standards. Ever stopped to think that maybe these guys took delight in being 300lbs, and not some 180lb fucking Men's Physique twink?

  12. #27
    OLYMPIAN Todd Lincoln's Avatar
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    Competitive bodybuilding should never be treated as more than a hobby. Because a select few are able and choose to only make a living by competing doesn't negate the former statement. There are plenty of others ways for those who love the sport to make money off of it and be around it other than competing. If your health isn't suited to compete simply find another hobby and be a recreational lifter.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcp1936 View Post
    Nope
    That wouldn't work in IFBB for a number or reasons. 6% is really not that low for the stage. While the difference between 9%-10% may not be that noticeable the difference between 5% and 6% is drastic. Setting a limit based on ratio's is not that great of an idea. Bodybuilding is all about reaching your maximum potential, not limiting it. It's called open class because that's what it is. Stay in the NPC if you want divisions.
    I actually remember the Arnold Classic at one point had a division called "Classic Bodybuilding". I believe it had divisions based on height and weight but that was the first and last time I've seen it. It might be more popular overseas.
    "If you ever start taking things too seriously, just remember that we are talking monkeys on an organic spaceship flying through the universe." - Joe Rogan

  14. #29
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    I agree with JAM on the points he makes. If the pro's are ok with taking tons of gear and getting to 350 lbs ripped and then dying, then I also am ok with it!! These are all adult men who choose to take MAJOR risks for the GLORY of winning. No different than other extreme sports. So yes, bring it on!! One day we may have a MR.Olympia who weighs 350 lbs RIPPED!!!! Leave the pro's alone and let them do what they please!!!

  15. #30
    RX MEMBER Flex500's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curt James View Post
    You did not mention Momo or Munzer.

    Ultimately it is the athlete's responsibility.

    Competitors will always beat drug tests and no one takes advice or follows recommendations, suggestions or directives.


    JAM makes good points about the dynamics of the organization that I'm not sure the answer to. In the NFL, MLB etc you are essentially employees with a contract.

    however...if an IFBB guy does something "out of line" the IFBB CAN suspend you so although it's not the same I do think the IFBB holds some responsibility in promoting good...no scratch that...better health habits.

    I'm also not talking about banning steroids. I'm talking about promoting a culture of better health. I'm talking about when a guy like nasser dies let's talk about it. Was it the drugs? Was it other things? recreational drugs? alcohol? genetic issues? Let's talk about it, let's get it out there.

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