Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 17
  1. #1
    RX MEMBER F.I.S.T.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    EARTH
    Posts
    1,709
    Rep Power
    43715

    Default Muscle cell saturation

    I saw this on another site ans thought it was a great read.

    MUSCLE CELL SATURATION


    Firstly I want to state that this is a FACT of human physiology. Not what may or may not happen because a piece of literature or two say so.
    Now bear with me, because I want to make sure everyone understands this.

    I'm sure you're familiar with how people say that fat cells never "disappear", only shrink? Well this is obviously true. The fat cells you gain will only shrink in size but will always be present in your body - Along with all the necessary cellular components of the cell to function (nucleus where the genetic information is held, ect).

    Fat cells are obviously specialised cells geared towards storing adipose tissue. And since the genetic information "hardwired" to storing fat will always be retained (as the cell does not disappear, only shrinks), gaining fat will always be EASIER for those who were previously obese, and have a greater number of fat cells still present in their body.

    This is a legitimate reason why people are encouraged to lean bulk and not dirty bulk.

    Anyway, its almost the SAME thing with a muscle cell (specialised cell). I'd like to make it clear that this is also what THE MUSCLE MEMORY PEOPLE KEEP TALKING ABOUT. Muscle memory is a FACT and all you need to do is understand this little mechanism of human physiology to understand that it is.

    Above I also said "Almost" the same thing, as we know that you don't "gain" muscle cells under normal conditions (what HGH may or may not do aside) - You're stuck with the amount you were born with.

    But the muscle cell, like the fat cell, can shrink in size, but it will never "disappear" and will retain all its cellular components necessary to its function.
    Now when you use steroids, there are only a certain amount of AR in the body. Once your body uses up all the AR, it will do something very intelligent - CREATE MORE androgen receptors within the muscle cell.

    Therefore, whenever a satellite cell fuses with a muscle cell, it donates an androgen receptor. Steroids increase the rate at which these satellite cells fuse.

    Now, because of this, if you ever stop training and lose the size of your muscle cells, you will always retain the cellular components of the muscle cell.

    That includes the AR and any extra ones that the body has produced along the way. This is muscle memory in the flesh.
    And obviously, the bigger the person, the more AR they have.

    Now I know what you're thinking and yes, from this theory, we can confidently deduce that the body becomes UPREGULATED from many years of training and steroid use (Isolated or together). Meaning, there is NO SUCH THING AS YOUR FIRST CYCLE IS YOUR BEST - THIS IS A PSYCHOLOGICAL ISSUE. Your body will only become BETTER are processing steroids, whether they be your natural production or exogenous.

    However, even though the bodies growth is not regulated through the androgen receptor, it IS THROUGH OTHER MECHANISMS (Myostatin for one, being a huge one that everyone should know about). This is why we can't keep growing to 500lbs, 5% or 300lbs, 10% from using everything under the sun for a year. I'm just saying that the AR does upregulate, not downregulate, and is not the source of growth prevention but promotion instead.

    This is why Bodybuilding will always, no matter what, take dedication, patience and time.

    So that's why a pro, or someone who is OR WAS in the past bigger than another person, will always have more AR. Effectively, they have the ability to utilise more steroids and benefit more off smaller dosages VS someone smaller.

  2. #2
    RX MEMBER F.I.S.T.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    EARTH
    Posts
    1,709
    Rep Power
    43715

    Default

    What are your guys thoughts on this?

  3. #3
    RX MEMBER
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    33
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Who is the author and is there any peer reviewed studies on this info? I'm not disputing it but would be curious as to what this is based on in terms of the science behind it.

  4. #4
    RX MEMBER F.I.S.T.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    EARTH
    Posts
    1,709
    Rep Power
    43715

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by t4ufit View Post
    Who is the author and is there any peer reviewed studies on this info? I'm not disputing it but would be curious as to what this is based on in terms of the science behind it.

    Im not sure.They didnt have it posted.

  5. #5
    RX MEMBER F.I.S.T.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    EARTH
    Posts
    1,709
    Rep Power
    43715

    Default

    bump

  6. #6
    RX MEMBER
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    4
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    I've always believed a person who has used steroids in the past has an advantage over somebody who never has. If you take identical twins, train them the same way, only give one a few cycles, and the other one remains natural the enhanced twin will become bigger and stronger. Let time pass, say 3-5 years, and I bet the one who was enhanced (but is clean now) will always stay stronger, and bigger. This is why I don't agree with MMA fighters being allowed to HRT.

  7. #7
    RX MEMBER F.I.S.T.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    EARTH
    Posts
    1,709
    Rep Power
    43715

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by peter821 View Post
    I've always believed a person who has used steroids in the past has an advantage over somebody who never has. If you take identical twins, train them the same way, only give one a few cycles, and the other one remains natural the enhanced twin will become bigger and stronger. Let time pass, say 3-5 years, and I bet the one who was enhanced (but is clean now) will always stay stronger, and bigger. This is why I don't agree with MMA fighters being allowed to HRT.

    You're absolutely right.As we all have heard of before,"muscle memory" is a real thing and once you have had a greater amount of muscle,be it from natural methods or of course from gear,you will always be able to obtain this again more easily than someone who's never had it.

    To expand on this even more,the longer you retain the heavier weigh/muscle,the more your body will reset it "normal" point.Meaning it will make a new point for which it believes is your normal weight and muscle mass % thus making it easier to remain at this new "normal" point. Its the same with weight loss and why crash diets never work.For the short term they do of course but eventually most end up not only gaining back what they lost,but adding even more weight.Your body always has a certain equilibrium and will fight to maintain it.So only by doing things slowly and consistently over extended periods of will it reset itself to this new point as whats normal for you.


    Now I agree that its unfair to a degree, for MMA and any sport really, for those that dont take AAS to those who do,I also accept that 'LIFE AIN'T FAIR" in any way shape or form so sports are no different.Its part of all sports and we all know this.So if someone doesnt take AAS and feels he has a disadvantage than go do something else.May not be right,but it is what it is.

  8. #8
    RX MEMBER
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    4
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    I agree, but there's an argument to be made that why should a guy who wants to remain natural have to poke his ass to compete in his chosen sport.

  9. #9
    RX MEMBER F.I.S.T.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    EARTH
    Posts
    1,709
    Rep Power
    43715

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by peter821 View Post
    I agree, but there's an argument to be made that why should a guy who wants to remain natural have to poke his ass to compete in his chosen sport.


    I understand what you're saying brother.Im not saying its not "morally" right or wrong,just stating the facts of the world we live in. Fair or not,PED's will never go away.Just as plastic surgery wont.Anything that one can use to "cheat" to looking better,feeling better and gaining an advantage over your competition will ALWAYS be a real issue that we have to understand and either accept or do something else.Not just in sport,but in life.


    Do AAS help you become better at your sport? Yes in a way.It helps you recover faster,train harder and gain more muscle through better protein synthesis.BUT, you have to still train you ass off to become better and take advantage of the AAS.Ive been in bbing and MMA my entire life and ive been on gear for more than half of it.Sure ive beaten a lot of guys that were not on gear,but i'll tell you what,ive lost to others that were not.Ive also beaten plenty of other guys on way more gear than me.Ive also trained natural guys that have kicked the shit out of guys that were geared to the teeth! AAS will not make you into a champion without you going BALLS TO THE WALL in the gym and the work ethic and mind set to become a champion!

    Fair or not,is not the issue.It being the reality of this life is.Its a shame that it is that way,but in life,winners take home the paychecks."FAIR" does not win titles,get contracts or get the respect and admiration of theowners,coaches,teaamates OR the fans.When they all start being fair at whom they want representing their team or organization,then maybe more athletes will remain natural.Until then...............

  10. #10
    BEARER OF TRUTH "Rodz"'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Puerto Vallarta
    Posts
    7,492
    Rep Power
    2147916

    Default

    Interesting, i already understood the "fat memory" part, which makes me fucking crazy when i see a fat kid, i just wanna grab the parents and yell u are fucking up your kids life!!!!

    I was unsure about muscle memory but just knew it existed, but that would def explain guys like Kevin Levrone's re-transformation
    Confucius say...
    A ripped guy who eats a pizza, then does an hour of cardio is still ripped.
    A fat guy who eats a pizza, then does an hour of cardio is still fat.

  11. #11
    RX MEMBER F.I.S.T.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    EARTH
    Posts
    1,709
    Rep Power
    43715

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by "Mike" View Post
    Interesting, i already understood the "fat memory" part, which makes me fucking crazy when i see a fat kid, i just wanna grab the parents and yell u are fucking up your kids life!!!!

    I was unsure about muscle memory but just knew it existed, but that would def explain guys like Kevin Levrone's re-transformation


    Absolutely.Fat,muscle its all the same in terms of how your body thinks of its normal point of reference.Your body will always fight what it thinks is not where you should be and thats why be making these gains over a slow,controlled amount of time and in little steps,it gets easier and easier to maintain.Its also much easier on your body and mind doing it this way which in turn means much healthier.

    As always,thanks for reading and the replies.


  12. #12
    RX MEMBER F.I.S.T.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    EARTH
    Posts
    1,709
    Rep Power
    43715

    Default

    Kevin was BAD ASS by the way!!!!

  13. #13
    OLYMPIAN Scott Stevenson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
    Posts
    538
    Rep Power
    577277

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by F.I.S.T. View Post

    I'm sure you're familiar with how people say that fat cells never "disappear", only shrink? Well this is obviously true.


    Spalding, K. L., et al. (2008). "Dynamics of fat cell turnover in humans." Nature 453(7196): 783-787.
    Obesity is increasing in an epidemic manner in most countries and constitutes a public health problem by enhancing the risk for cardiovascular disease and metabolic disorders such as type 2 diabetes. Owing to the increase in obesity, life expectancy may start to decrease in developed countries for the first time in recent history. The factors determining fat mass in adult humans are not fully understood, but increased lipid storage in already developed fat cells (adipocytes) is thought to be most important. Here we show that adipocyte number is a major determinant for the fat mass in adults. However, the number of fat cells stays constant in adulthood in lean and obese individuals, even after marked weight loss, indicating that the number of adipocytes is set during childhood and adolescence. To establish the dynamics within the stable population of adipocytes in adults, we have measured adipocyte turnover by analysing the integration of 14C derived from nuclear bomb tests in genomic DNA. Approximately 10% of fat cells are renewed annually at all adult ages and levels of body mass index. Neither adipocyte death nor generation rate is altered in early onset obesity, suggesting a tight regulation of fat cell number in this condition during adulthood. The high turnover of adipocytes establishes a new therapeutic target for pharmacological intervention in obesity.



    But the muscle cell, like the fat cell, can shrink in size, but it will never "disappear" and will retain all its cellular components necessary to its function.

    Deschenes, M. R. (2004). "Effects of aging on muscle fibre type and size." Sports Med 34(12): 809-824.
    Aging has been associated with a loss of muscle mass that is referred to as 'sarcopenia'. This decrease in muscle tissue begins around the age of 50 years, but becomes more dramatic beyond the 60th year of life. Loss of muscle mass among the aged directly results in diminished muscle function. Decreased strength and power contribute to the high incidence of accidental falls observed among the elderly and can compromise quality of life. Moreover, sarcopenia has been linked to several chronic afflictions that are common among the aged, including osteoporosis, insulin resistance and arthritis. Loss of muscle fibre number is the principal cause of sarcopenia, although fibre atrophy--particularly among type II fibres--is also involved. Several physiological mechanisms have been implicated in the development of sarcopenia. Denervation results in the loss of motor units and thus, muscle fibres. A decrease in the production of anabolic hormones such as testosterone, growth hormone and insulin-like growth factor-1 impairs the capacity of skeletal muscle to incorporate amino acids and synthesise proteins. An increase in the release of catabolic agents, specifically interleukin-6, amplifies the rate of muscle wasting among the elderly. Given the demographic trends evident in most western societies, i.e. increased number of those considered aged, management interventions for sarcopenia must become a major goal of the healthcare profession.


    ---------

    -Scott

  14. #14
    RX MEMBER F.I.S.T.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    EARTH
    Posts
    1,709
    Rep Power
    43715

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by homonunculus View Post
    [/B][/SIZE]Spalding, K. L., et al. (2008). "Dynamics of fat cell turnover in humans." Nature 453(7196): 783-787.
    Obesity is increasing in an epidemic manner in most countries and constitutes a public health problem by enhancing the risk for cardiovascular disease and metabolic disorders such as type 2 diabetes. Owing to the increase in obesity, life expectancy may start to decrease in developed countries for the first time in recent history. The factors determining fat mass in adult humans are not fully understood, but increased lipid storage in already developed fat cells (adipocytes) is thought to be most important. Here we show that adipocyte number is a major determinant for the fat mass in adults. However, the number of fat cells stays constant in adulthood in lean and obese individuals, even after marked weight loss, indicating that the number of adipocytes is set during childhood and adolescence. To establish the dynamics within the stable population of adipocytes in adults, we have measured adipocyte turnover by analysing the integration of 14C derived from nuclear bomb tests in genomic DNA. Approximately 10% of fat cells are renewed annually at all adult ages and levels of body mass index. Neither adipocyte death nor generation rate is altered in early onset obesity, suggesting a tight regulation of fat cell number in this condition during adulthood. The high turnover of adipocytes establishes a new therapeutic target for pharmacological intervention in obesity.



    Deschenes, M. R. (2004). "Effects of aging on muscle fibre type and size." Sports Med 34(12): 809-824.
    Aging has been associated with a loss of muscle mass that is referred to as 'sarcopenia'. This decrease in muscle tissue begins around the age of 50 years, but becomes more dramatic beyond the 60th year of life. Loss of muscle mass among the aged directly results in diminished muscle function. Decreased strength and power contribute to the high incidence of accidental falls observed among the elderly and can compromise quality of life. Moreover, sarcopenia has been linked to several chronic afflictions that are common among the aged, including osteoporosis, insulin resistance and arthritis. Loss of muscle fibre number is the principal cause of sarcopenia, although fibre atrophy--particularly among type II fibres--is also involved. Several physiological mechanisms have been implicated in the development of sarcopenia. Denervation results in the loss of motor units and thus, muscle fibres. A decrease in the production of anabolic hormones such as testosterone, growth hormone and insulin-like growth factor-1 impairs the capacity of skeletal muscle to incorporate amino acids and synthesise proteins. An increase in the release of catabolic agents, specifically interleukin-6, amplifies the rate of muscle wasting among the elderly. Given the demographic trends evident in most western societies, i.e. increased number of those considered aged, management interventions for sarcopenia must become a major goal of the healthcare profession.


    ---------

    -Scott


    Thanks for the article.I like this excerpt from slightly before what you highlighted......


    "The factors determining fat mass in adult humans are not fully understood, but increased lipid storage in already developed fat cells (adipocytes) is thought to be most important. Here we show that adipocyte number is a major determinant for the fat mass in adults. However, the number of fat cells stays constant in adulthood in lean and obese individuals, even after marked weight loss, indicating that the number of adipocytes is set during childhood and adolescence."



    F.I.S.T.

  15. #15
    OLYMPIAN
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    658
    Rep Power
    169190

    Default

    My thoughts on this are simple. Some of the things make sense about the article and some don't. I do think it's possible to make fat cells disappear completely but it takes time for this to happen. I also think you have to consider the persons body fat percentage as well. How much fat is actually on that person. I think overall it's a good read though.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

X vBulletin 4.2.3 Debug Information

  • Page Generation 0.16554 seconds
  • Memory Usage 7,327KB
  • Queries Executed 25 (?)
More Information
Template Usage (43):
  • (1)SHOWTHREAD
  • (1)ad_footer_end
  • (1)ad_footer_start
  • (1)ad_global_above_footer
  • (1)ad_global_below_navbar
  • (1)ad_global_header1
  • (1)ad_global_header2
  • (1)ad_navbar_below
  • (1)ad_showthread_firstpost_sig
  • (1)ad_showthread_firstpost_start
  • (1)ad_thread_first_post_content
  • (1)ad_thread_last_post_content
  • (7)bbcode_quote
  • (4)block_html
  • (1)block_threads
  • (1)facebook_footer
  • (1)facebook_header
  • (1)facebook_likebutton
  • (1)facebook_opengraph
  • (1)footer
  • (1)forumjump
  • (1)forumrules
  • (1)gobutton
  • (1)header
  • (1)headinclude
  • (1)headinclude_bottom
  • (15)memberaction_dropdown
  • (1)navbar
  • (4)navbar_link
  • (1)navbar_noticebit
  • (1)navbar_tabs
  • (3)option
  • (1)pagenav
  • (1)pagenav_curpage
  • (1)pagenav_pagelink
  • (15)postbit_legacy
  • (15)postbit_onlinestatus
  • (15)postbit_wrapper
  • (3)showthread_bookmarksite
  • (1)sidebarext_temp
  • (1)spacer_close
  • (1)spacer_open
  • (1)tagbit_wrapper 

Phrase Groups Available (6):
  • global
  • inlinemod
  • postbit
  • posting
  • reputationlevel
  • showthread
Included Files (37):
  • ./showthread.php
  • ./global.php
  • ./includes/class_bootstrap.php
  • ./includes/init.php
  • ./includes/class_core.php
  • ./includes/config.php
  • ./includes/functions.php
  • ./includes/functions_navigation.php
  • ./includes/class_friendly_url.php
  • ./includes/class_hook.php
  • ./includes/class_bootstrap_framework.php
  • ./vb/vb.php
  • ./vb/phrase.php
  • ./includes/class_facebook.php
  • ./includes/facebook/facebook.php
  • ./includes/facebook/base_facebook.php
  • ./includes/functions_facebook.php
  • ./includes/functions_bigthree.php
  • ./includes/class_postbit.php
  • ./includes/class_bbcode.php
  • ./includes/functions_reputation.php
  • ./includes/class_block.php
  • ./includes/block/html.php
  • ./vb/context.php
  • ./vb/cache.php
  • ./vb/cache/db.php
  • ./vb/cache/observer/db.php
  • ./vb/cache/observer.php
  • ./includes/functions_notice.php
  • ./includes/block/threads.php
  • ./packages/vbattach/attach.php
  • ./vb/types.php
  • ./packages/skimlinks/hooks/postbit_display_complete.php
  • ./packages/skimlinks/hooks/showthread_complete.php
  • ./mobiquo/smartbanner.php
  • ./mobiquo/include/classTTConnection.php
  • ./mobiquo/smartbanner/head.inc.php 

Hooks Called (76):
  • init_startup
  • database_pre_fetch_array
  • database_post_fetch_array
  • friendlyurl_resolve_class
  • global_bootstrap_init_start
  • global_bootstrap_init_complete
  • cache_permissions
  • fetch_threadinfo_query
  • fetch_threadinfo
  • fetch_foruminfo
  • load_show_variables
  • load_forum_show_variables
  • global_state_check
  • global_bootstrap_complete
  • global_start
  • style_fetch
  • global_setup_complete
  • showthread_start
  • cache_templates
  • cache_templates_process
  • template_register_var
  • template_render_output
  • fetch_template_start
  • fetch_template_complete
  • friendlyurl_clean_fragment
  • friendlyurl_geturl
  • fb_canonical_url
  • fb_opengraph_array
  • parse_templates
  • fetch_musername
  • notices_check_start
  • notices_noticebit
  • process_templates_complete
  • showthread_getinfo
  • strip_bbcode
  • forumjump
  • friendlyurl_redirect_canonical
  • showthread_post_start
  • showthread_query_postids
  • showthread_query
  • bbcode_fetch_tags
  • bbcode_create
  • showthread_postbit_create
  • postbit_factory
  • postbit_display_start
  • reputation_power
  • reputation_image
  • postbit_imicons
  • bbcode_parse_start
  • bbcode_parse_complete_precache
  • bbcode_parse_complete
  • postbit_display_complete
  • memberaction_dropdown
  • pagenav_page
  • pagenav_complete
  • tag_fetchbit_complete
  • forumrules
  • showthread_bookmarkbit
  • navbits
  • navbits_complete
  • build_navigation_data
  • build_navigation_array
  • check_navigation_permission
  • process_navigation_links_start
  • process_navigation_links_complete
  • set_navigation_menu_element
  • build_navigation_menudata
  • build_navigation_listdata
  • build_navigation_list
  • set_navigation_tab_main
  • set_navigation_tab_fallback
  • navigation_tab_complete
  • fb_publish_checkbox
  • fb_like_button
  • showthread_complete
  • page_templates