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  1. #31
    OLYMPIAN Wiry Pyruvity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Puppy View Post
    Horrible article. Sick of the liberal agenda
    boring
    Quote Originally Posted by scottt View Post
    Seems so simple that this topic should not be an issue.
    it does...at first glance...and I mostly agree with swingslammer...once rights come into the picture things get a little murky...I would think this a tough category to take a stance regarding transgender rights...
    Zappatista

  2. #32
    FREAK Triple-H_2005's Avatar
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    Even though I'm the whitest guy in most any room and I have all these annoying Germanic-Viking physical characteristics, I really feel like I'm a black man on the inside.

    How about I have some surgery to alter some outer characteristics and (science permitting) my skin permanently darkened. That way, when I go back for my Master's degree, I might be eligible for some minority scholarships.

    No...that would be stupid. No matter what I do surgically, I'm a white due that could never understand the black, or illegal immigrant, experience.

    Hermaphroditic instances aside, no amount of surgery can make a man a woman or a woman a man. It's a cosmetic change at best and can never permanently alter DNA-based advantages as so thoroughly illustrated by Swingslammer.

    You want to be a "girl", fine...walk around as whatever you like. Sports...not so much. It's akin to a gassed athlete competing in a tested event. I have no issue with what anyone wants to use, just don't act like it's an equal playing field with truly clean athletes. It's the same thing with the transgendered issue.

    Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken.

  3. #33
    OLYMPIAN Wiry Pyruvity's Avatar
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    and that's just it...they have separated themselves into a separate gender-category...what really sucks for them is that, for the time being at any rate, they have few fellow competitors...

    Could they be allowed to compete, but not be eligible for a placing?
    Zappatista

  4. #34
    Muscle In The Morning
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple-H_2005 View Post
    Even though I'm the whitest guy in most any room and I have all these annoying Germanic-Viking physical characteristics, I really feel like I'm a black man on the inside.

    How about I have some surgery to alter some outer characteristics and (science permitting) my skin permanently darkened. That way, when I go back for my Master's degree, I might be eligible for some minority scholarships.

    No...that would be stupid. No matter what I do surgically, I'm a white due that could never understand the black, or illegal immigrant, experience.

    Hermaphroditic instances aside, no amount of surgery can make a man a woman or a woman a man. It's a cosmetic change at best and can never permanently alter DNA-based advantages as so thoroughly illustrated by Swingslammer.

    You want to be a "girl", fine...walk around as whatever you like. Sports...not so much. It's akin to a gassed athlete competing in a tested event. I have no issue with what anyone wants to use, just don't act like it's an equal playing field with truly clean athletes. It's the same thing with the transgendered issue.

    Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken.
    The statement in bold is correct. Gender is between the ears, not the legs. So I agree with you. That's all I will say in this thread. I promised Curt I wouldn't engage, but you made a very good point and I wanted to commend you for it.
    Last edited by MITM; 04-22-2014 at 10:49 AM.

  5. #35
    OLYMPIAN Granite-Dawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiry Pyruvity View Post
    and that's just it...they have separated themselves into a separate gender-category...what really sucks for them is that, for the time being at any rate, they have few fellow competitors...

    Could they be allowed to compete, but not be eligible for a placing?
    Great take on it. ^^^
    DON'T BE AVERAGE!!!

  6. #36
    Alpha Male GENESIS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianDuque View Post
    The statement in bold is correct. Gender is between the ears, not the legs. So I agree with you. That's all I will say in this thread. I promised Curt I wouldn't engage, but you made a very good point and I wanted to commend you for it.
    Gender identity is in ones head. Physical gender is DEFINITELY between the legs. Genotype vs phenotype.
    Keep Ritch Banned. FOR-EVER.

    Un-Ban SKELETOR though, yo.

  7. #37
    Ex Ass, now just annoying swingslammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianDuque View Post
    The statement in bold is correct. Gender is between the ears, not the legs. So I agree with you. That's all I will say in this thread. I promised Curt I wouldn't engage, but you made a very good point and I wanted to commend you for it.
    Gender is between the ears.....so is Schizophrenia, Sociopathy , Anorexia, Heterosexuality, Homosexuality.....the will to win and EVERYTHING else that makes us who we are. It is all between the ears.


    P.S. I am not equating Transgendered with some kind of "Illness", I am just saying all that we are is between the ears. My feeling that this article was just another bad idea for an article for this site........between the ears!
    Gone but not forgotten, I remember you too Dookie!

  8. #38
    Ex Ass, now just annoying swingslammer's Avatar
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    P.P.S. Everything PHYSICALLY different between a male and female body....ala the cites and studies I posted above....IS NOT BETWEEN THE EARS.

    True physical/biomechanical differences between a male and female body that will not be changed by either hormones or surgery.
    Gone but not forgotten, I remember you too Dookie!

  9. #39
    Managing Dir., Rx Muscle Forums Curt James's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swingslammer View Post
    Gender is between the ears.....so is Schizophrenia, Sociopathy , Anorexia, Heterosexuality, Homosexuality.....the will to win and EVERYTHING else that makes us who we are. It is all between the ears.


    P.S. I am not equating Transgendered with some kind of "Illness", I am just saying all that we are is between the ears. My feeling that this article was just another bad idea for an article for this site........between the ears!
    Why?

    Seems to me there's been a good dialogue here.

    Here's what I'm calling The Cal Edit.

    TRANSGENDERED ATHLETES - OVERCOMING ADVERSITY

    By Christian Duque as edited by swingslammer

    April 20, 2014

    Some things in life are simple. Other things may appear to be cut-and-dry on the surface, but are actually far more complex than you think. In order to have a fighting chance of understanding, appreciating, and perhaps even learning something from this article, the reader needs to have an open mind. Today's topic is 'Transgendered Athletes in Competitive Sports' – an increasingly pertinent subject in today's collegiate, amateur, and professional level sports.

    Before delving into what Transgenderism is, we need to spend some time on gender itself. Responsibly-speaking, there are three genders at birth (male, female, and intersex). It's believed that 1:1500 to 1:2000 babies born worldwide are born intersex, meaning they were born with both male and female sexual organs (this includes "XX Intersex"). [1]

    In most countries, doctors – after consulting with parents – would arrive on a decision on how to proceed then and there. But a new law in Germany forbids doctors from making cosmetic genital surgeries on these infants.

    Other countries around the world allow parents of intersexed babies to wait several years to get to know their children first, consult with them, and then decide. The "X" gender is recognized in countries including Germany, Australia, New Zealand, India, and others. [2]

    "Although many people believe that sexual genitalia is the be-all and end-all determination for gender, experts believe, "Gender is the range of physical, biological, mental, and behavioral characteristics that distinguish males from females." [3] The reality is that most people, unfortunately, confine their understanding of gender to sexual organs, puberty, and even sexual preference. This fascination/obsession with the external is what has led society to have such a backward understanding. In fact, studies show that gender solidifies in children at about 3-6 year of age! [4]

    Parents who love their children, usually do so unconditionally. What parent would force their child to live in a gender they don't identify with, denying who they are every time they look at themselves in the mirror? A lot of parents would; a lot of parents do.

    The vast majority of people take for granted the luxury of being born and living in their congruent gender. These people, people like myself, are called Cisgendered. Transgender people are those whose gender identity does not match with their assigned sex. [5]

    But much has changed in modern science, namely mental health, since the 1950's when the issue was first analyzed. As many of you may already know, the DSM (Diagnostic & Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) is published in temporal editions; whatever is printed in the pages of these manuals is sacrosanct in the field of psychology and psychiatry.

    In the 1950s and 60s, the DSM III used the term "true transChloiesexual," to represent Transgendered men and women. In using this terminology, it diagnosed Trans people as suffering from Gender Identity Disorder (GID), an illness linked in part, to "transvestic fetishism."[6]
    Essentially, the DSM III characterized Transgenderism as nothing more than a cross-dressing fetish with several degrading twists. A male cross-dresser or transvestite, for example, is a female impersonator. But “sexual fetishism or erotic fetishism is the sexual arousal a person receives from a physical object, or from a specific situation.” [7] Cross-dressers do not typically get aroused by dressing in drag – it’s like acting.

    The DSM III painted all Trans people as deranged individuals. For much of the next twenty years, Trans people largely were considered to be sexual deviants in the eyes of modern psychiatry. That is, until Stonewall happened. Many historians believe the riots at the Stonewall Inn during the early morning hours of June 28, 1969 signaled the birth of the Gay Rights Movement. The riots were led, in large part, by Trans men and women, amongst gay and lesbian residents of New York City's Greenwich Village neighborhood.

    One key issue mainstream people need to understand is that Transgenderism is unrelated to sexual preference. The fact that Trans people chose to form part of the Gay, Lesbian, and Bi community is strictly for political reasons.

    Trans people may be gay, straight, bisexual, pansexual, or asexual. It's quite common for a Trans Woman to marry a heterosexual, cisgendered male or live in civil union with a heterosexual, cisgendered woman.

    However, the political alliance did help in terms of legal protections and eroding some of society's stances – there was strength in numbers. One small victory came when the DSM IV replaced the term "true transsexual" with "transgendered," placing less emphasis on the fetishism angle.
    The new edition still adhered to the GID classification, meaning Trans people were still 'suffering from a mental disorder.' The DSM V is said to replace GID with Dysphoria – another small victory for the cause, but hardly the true victory this community has been waiting over sixty years for. If you're interested in learning more about 'dsyphoria,' certainly study up on it.

    So what do Trans people do once they know who they really are? The process of correcting this ordeal is called 'transition.' A person deemed male that transitions to the female legal status is designated as being Male-to-female (MtF) – hereinafter Trans Woman – and a person legally deemed female that transitions to legal male status is designated a Female-to-male (FtM) – hereinafter a Trans Man.

    This process can start at childhood or adolescence (depending on the parents) and is common upon reaching the legal age of consent. Another distinction, albeit a minor one, is the mainstream public's obsession with distinguishing, "Pre-Op" from "Post-Op". The "Op" deals with Sex Reassignment Surgery (SRS). Neither surgery makes someone any more or less transgendered, but many members of the mainstream love asking this very personal, private question of Trans people. It can be perceived by some as degrading or bullying.

    Transition also may involve HRT (or Hormone Replacement Therapy). In this article, we're primarily focusing on Trans Women because they face seemingly greater discrimination in sports as a result of the alleged "Transunfair advantage." Before continuing, it's also important that much like SRS does not make anyone more or less Trans; the decision to start HRT does not, either. Being Trans does not require wearing clothes, surgeries, or hormone treatments, but many Trans people want to actively correct their situation. I mean, wouldn't you?

    Typical HRT for a Trans Woman consists of estradiol, progesterone, and testosterone blockers. These powerful compounds have almost immediate results in the body, decreasing muscle mass, strength, and increasing body fat. One popular T-blocker, Spironolactone, is actually known for accelerating the deterioration of muscle mass. Trans athletes say they become aware of these changes as quickly as a few weeks into treatment. [8]

    Although Trans Women competing against Cisgendered Women have far lower Testosterone levels, some argue that there is still an 'unfair advantage' at play. One key issue is that of muscle fibers and development. Dave Palumbo, owner of RxMuscle.com and celebrated industry personality, avers, "Muscle fiber numbers and development is influenced by prenatal testosterone... and by pubertal testosterone exposure. You can't undo that by taking away testosterone later in life."

    However, when presented with the scenario of transgendered children and adolescents that receive parental-approved HRT to counteract said exposure, Palumbo states, “True genetic males will always have an advantage over genetic females; but the less exposure they have to early testosterone, the less of an advantage that exists." Mr. Palumbo earned a B.S. from Franklin and Marshall College in Biology & Anthropology and was a 3rd year student at New York Medical College.

    This suggests, or at least opens for debate, the possibility that prenatal testosterone alone does not give Trans Women the unfair advantage that certain sports organizations hold over their head. Countless transgendered teens are placed on HRT to counteract the effects of puberty. In the next 5-10 years many of these teens will be of college age and will want to compete in their legal, congruent genders.

    Currently, the law recognizes Trans Women and Cisgendered women as females – one no different than the other. The guidelines of "modern science" are following along, albeit slowly.
    The NCAA adopted a new policy on transgender athletes in 2011. "[A]thletes who have testosterone in their systems (Trans Men) from medical treatments will not be allowed to compete against women's teams in gender specific sports at NCAA Championships." [9] For Trans Women there's an exception. "The men (Trans Women) would have to provide documentation that they had testosterone suppression treatment (HRT) for one calendar year." [10]

    As of 1999, the International Olympic Committee allows transgender athFallonletes to compete alongside Cisgendered athletes; however, they require a three-prong test. A Trans athletes must (1) have SRS complete, (2) have legal recognition conferred, and (3) HRT for assigned sex in a verifiable manner and for a sufficient period of time. [11] While the IOC doesn't have a timetable for HRT like the NCAA, it requires body-altering surgery. And while GRS is slightly more viable for Trans Women, it's highly cautioned against for Trans Men. But what does the IOC care, right?

    In the case of Trans Woman Fallon Fox (Pro MMA Fighter), the Organization of Boxing Commissions meted out its own spin of the IOC's three-prong test. They require SRS but not legal recognition conferred. They also require HRT, but they choose to define for how long. The "current understanding" (according to them) is that a minimum of two years on HRT is “the minimum amount of time necessary to obviate male hormone gender-related advantages in sports competition.”

    Fallon actively competes in this federation. She had this to say to Christian Duque of RxMuscle.com – “My journey in transition has shown me firsthand what modern medicine is capable of doing with a human’s body in transition from male to female. When people say things like, ‘she has a huge unfair advantage! She's a man!’ It really highlights their ignorance on the subject, especially when I am pitted against an opponent like Erika Newsome. Another MMA fighter who is a cisgender (as far as I know) and was clearly in better physical conditioning than I was when I knocked her out in 39 seconds, or when I lose a fight, as I did when I lost to Ashley Evans Smith.”

    “Trans people have been competing in sports since the ‘70s. Yet, has anyone seen any evidence of Trans people completely dominating sports as would be expected by some? No. We tend to do as well as other competitors in our sports,” Fallon stated.

    The LPGA also allows Trans athletes to compete alongside Cisgendered ones. This was not a result of their progressiveness; rather, it was the direct result of a lawsuit. In 2010, Lana Lawless, previously a male police officer from Rialto, CA, sued the LPGA for denying her applications to compete; she had undergone SRS/GRS five years earlier. When Lawless dropped her claim, the LPGA voted to revise its rulebook. [12]

    The case of Transgender athletes is a far-reaching one over history. One of the most famous cases involved celebrated U.S. Tennis player Renee Richards. Richards, formerly Dr. Richard Raskind, underwent GRS/SRS in 1975 and qualified to play in the 1977 U.S. Open after a New York Supreme Court decision. Richards lost in straight sets to Virginia Wade – a Cisgendered woman. [13]

    Today, the headlines deal with another Trans Woman being unduly and unjustly discriminated by a sports body. I'm talking about Chloie Johnson, who is suing CrossFit. Much like, Lana Lawless, I don't believe Ms. Johnson is after the money – she wants to compete. Chloie underwent SRS in 2006 and is legally recognized as a woman in the State of California. [14]

    CrossFit posits that, “The fundamental, ineluctable fact is that a male competitor who has a sex reassignment procedure still has a genetic makeup that confers a physical and physiological advantage over women.” CrossFit Inc. is a rather new organization, founded in 2000, practiced in about 9,000 gyms across the United States. [15]

    Johnson doesn't have an 'unfair advantage' per the IOC, NCAA, LPGA, or Organization of Boxing Commissions, just to name a few, but this relatively new sports association has changed the guidelines and will not allow Johnson to compete. This isn't new to Fallon Fox, who draws striking similarities between the adversities faced during the civil rights movement.

    "I find the fear of trans athletes competing to be interesting. It causes some otherwise good natured people to bristle in some cases. Unfortunately, some don't understand that this situation is a rehashing of minorities being misunderstood when competing in sports. A rehashing of people being afraid of inclusion. Much like when blacks were told that we had too heavy bone density for certain activities, extra muscle in our legs, larger heels that helped us run. These supposed advantages were way too much for any non-black human to overcome. Yet, they were. And look at where we are today on that subject," Fox stated.

    One day, gender identity will truly receive the same protections as sexual orientation. Although they are completely separate, the political connection between the Gay and Transgendered communities is now forged in steel. It's going to be a long, hard-fought process, that's for sure!
    Some in mainstream society may dismiss CrossFit Inc.’s decision as unduly discriminatory and even unjust, but because they're a private entity, many feel Chloie's battle is futile. If this were an issue of race, the government could use the 13th Amendment and its prohibition of badges and incidents of slavery to stop a private business's racist agenda – whether or not state action (state funding of any sort) was present or not.

    Race receives substantially more protection than sexual orientation (which is mainly discretionary in the courts) and much more than gender identity (which gets even less protection). Laws are changing; science is being focused upon in this discussion.

    Sadly, discrimination in our country runs rampant, and those responsible for it are the most vocal deniers of its relevance. Currently, Trans people can be fired in 33 states in America, simply for being transgendered. [16]

    Keeping Chloie out won't be the end of it for CrossFit or other sports. The teen of today will be knocking on the door tomorrow. And the men and women today, whose only motivation in fighting, is competing, they're unlikely to give up either. These courageous people aren't quitters.

    Like Fallon says, "Potential segregation in sports always starts with fear of the unknown. But, we always find out the truth when we actually compete. The competition is the test for the misinformed party in each situation involving a new minority in sport. And we have been testing it for years already."

    In closing, I support Chloie Johnson and all transgendered athletes. It will be interesting to see what the courts decide in this case.

    [1] Castillo, Michelle, “Germany To Allow Third Gender...,” CBS News (November 11, 2013).
    [2] Ibid.,
    [3] Udry, J. Richard, “The Nature of Gender,” Demography 31. (November 1994).
    [4] Dvorak, Petula, “Transgender at Five,” Washington Post (5/19/2012).
    [5] Wikipedia, citing: “Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation. GLAAD Media Reference Guide - Transgender glossary of terms, GLAAD,” USA, May 2010.
    [6] DSM-III R, "Transsexualism," (302.50)
    [7] Wikipedia.org, "Sexual Fetishism," 2014.
    [8] Amelia, "How Transitioning Changed Me As A Runner...," http://EntirelyAmelia.com (Dec. 23, 2013).
    [9] AP, "New Policy for Transgendered Athletes," (http://www.ncaa.com/news/ncaa/articl...ender-athletes)
    [10] Ibid.,
    [11] Mercado, Stephanie, "The Olympics Allow Transgender Athletes to Compete, So Why Won't CrossFit?" (http://TakePart.com) (March 13, 2014).
    [12] Torre, Epstein, "The Transgender Athlete," http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com (May 28, 2012).
    [13] "Subject of New Documentary," NY Daily News, (July 22, 2011).
    [14] Barrabi, Thomas, "Chloie Johnson Sues CrossFit...," International Business Times, (April 6, 2014).
    [15] Wikipedia citing: Friedman, Jon. "Success and the Bull's Eye". The CrossFit Journal. Retrieved 3/16/2014.
    [16] Mosier, Chris, "No Openly Transgendered Athletes...," HuffPost.com (Feb. 20, 2014).

    swingslammer, copy and paste and edit additionally if you'd like. Your version won't alter Christian's original piece at all but could stand as an separate document offered from a more conservative viewpoint?

    I mean no disrespect to you or Christian. It seems interesting to consider this topic from different perspectives.

  10. #40
    Ex Ass, now just annoying swingslammer's Avatar
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    Damn....Curt is putting in as much hard work on this discussion as I am??


    See and this has not even degenerated in to name calling......yet?
    Gone but not forgotten, I remember you too Dookie!

  11. #41
    The Fitness View Carolyn Bryant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianDuque View Post
    The statement in bold is correct. Gender is between the ears, not the legs. So I agree with you. That's all I will say in this thread. I promised Curt I wouldn't engage, but you made a very good point and I wanted to commend you for it.
    Gender is indeed between the legs. It's called a uterus and males are not born with one.
    "If it makes my arse tight and my face bite then I don't want it!" Over 40-Fitness is Fabulous.


  12. #42
    Managing Dir., Rx Muscle Forums Curt James's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swingslammer View Post
    Damn....Curt is putting in as much hard work on this discussion as I am??


    See and this has not even degenerated in to name calling......yet?
    This surprises you?

    ;-)

  13. #43
    FREAK Triple-H_2005's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianDuque View Post
    The statement in bold is correct. Gender is between the ears, not the legs. So I agree with you. That's all I will say in this thread. I promised Curt I wouldn't engage, but you made a very good point and I wanted to commend you for it.
    I appreciate that, there's no reason we can't interact...I'll be the first to admit that maybe I pushed a bit last time, maybe I was hormonal! Anyway, I'm all for discourse of any kind...and this is definitely a hot topic that's only going to get hotter as time and surgical procedures progress.

  14. #44
    Managing Dir., Rx Muscle Forums Curt James's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple-H_2005 View Post
    I appreciate that, there's no reason we can't interact...I'll be the first to admit that maybe I pushed a bit last time, maybe I was hormonal! Anyway, I'm all for discourse of any kind...and this is definitely a hot topic that's only going to get hotter as time and surgical procedures progress.
    did i c what u did there?


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    FREAK Triple-H_2005's Avatar
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    I'll never tell...

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  • fetch_threadinfo
  • fetch_foruminfo
  • load_show_variables
  • load_forum_show_variables
  • global_state_check
  • global_bootstrap_complete
  • global_start
  • style_fetch
  • global_setup_complete
  • showthread_start
  • cache_templates
  • cache_templates_process
  • template_register_var
  • template_render_output
  • fetch_template_start
  • fetch_template_complete
  • friendlyurl_clean_fragment
  • friendlyurl_geturl
  • fb_canonical_url
  • fb_opengraph_array
  • parse_templates
  • fetch_musername
  • notices_check_start
  • notices_noticebit
  • process_templates_complete
  • showthread_getinfo
  • strip_bbcode
  • forumjump
  • friendlyurl_redirect_canonical
  • showthread_post_start
  • showthread_query_postids
  • showthread_query
  • bbcode_fetch_tags
  • bbcode_create
  • showthread_postbit_create
  • postbit_factory
  • postbit_display_start
  • reputation_power
  • reputation_image
  • bbcode_parse_start
  • postbit_imicons
  • bbcode_parse_complete_precache
  • bbcode_parse_complete
  • postbit_display_complete
  • memberaction_dropdown
  • bbcode_img_match
  • pagenav_page
  • pagenav_complete
  • tag_fetchbit_complete
  • forumrules
  • showthread_bookmarkbit
  • navbits
  • navbits_complete
  • build_navigation_data
  • build_navigation_array
  • check_navigation_permission
  • process_navigation_links_start
  • process_navigation_links_complete
  • set_navigation_menu_element
  • build_navigation_menudata
  • build_navigation_listdata
  • build_navigation_list
  • set_navigation_tab_main
  • set_navigation_tab_fallback
  • navigation_tab_complete
  • fb_publish_checkbox
  • fb_like_button
  • showthread_complete
  • page_templates