carbohydrate allocation

[KevinCouch]

i agree with kevin it wouldnt feel right to me, but bob does improve every year. maybe he would improve more otherwise? i have no idea. but this is the interesting discussion i was trying to generate

I've done it before over the years out of necessity being short on time and only time to train is upon wakening. I could get a halfway decent workout with good intensity and energy in if I drank a pre-workout shake first and during the workout.

I probably would make modest gains training fasted but my body needs the nutrients to train. I usually have about 2 to 3 meals in my system when I train. On the weekends, I train earlier and have one meal in my system and I just have the same intensity, energy or strength.

[KevinCouch]

To me it makes no difference. The body doesn't run on an hourly clock. It is more of a 24hr clock. This is why amino acids can be reserved for up to 24 hrs to complete the chain.

Science will always say otherwise but read something like the Warrior Diet by Ori Hofmekler and you will think differently. We weren't always farmers. At one time we were all hunters/ gatherers and only ate once a day. Yet we were leaner and in better health. Just something to think about.

I've tried training fasted and it doesn't work for me. I don't read "science articles" and I'm sure you could find articles that contradict one other. Your body does store amino acids but I need the carbs in my system to give me the energy I need to train with intensity.

I've just learned over decades of training what works best for me. I have a fast metabolism so even when I prep for shows I take in more carbs than most. That's just how my body functions.

[bushmaster]

I've tried training fasted and it doesn't work for me. I don't read "science" and I'm sure you could find articles that contradict one other. Your body does store amino acids but I need the carbs in my system to give me the energy I need to train with intensity.

I have a fast metabolism so even when I prep for shows I take in more carbs than most. That's just how my body functions.

I understand that but if you programmed yourself to eat all those carbs the night before how wouldn't they be available for energy? Glycogen stores would be filled and glucose is available for energy. It may take time to find the right amount but I think it would work, no matter how great your needs are.

[The Solution]

Bob, What are your reasons for training fasted? I know that doing cardio fasted helps burn more fat because you don't have the carbs in your system. But, why would you train fasted? You would have more energy and be able to push harder if you weren't fasted. If I trained fasted I'd spiral down into a catabolic nightmare.

Schedule
better performance, endurance, and strength in a fasted state upon waking.

To me it makes no difference. The body doesn't run on an hourly clock. It is more of a 24hr clock. This is why amino acids can be reserved for up to 24 hrs to complete the chain.

BINGO ^^^

[The Solution]

And once again
100% Agree

I understand that but if you programmed yourself to eat all those carbs the night before how wouldn't they be available for energy? Glycogen stores would be filled and glucose is available for energy. It may take time to find the right amount but I think it would work, no matter how great your needs are.

[Provo82]

To me it makes no difference. The body doesn't run on an hourly clock. It is more of a 24hr clock. This is why amino acids can be reserved for up to 24 hrs to complete the chain.

Science will always say otherwise but read something like the Warrior Diet by Ori Hofmekler and you will think differently. We weren't always farmers. At one time we were all hunters/ gatherers and only ate once a day. Yet we were leaner and in better health. Just something to think about.

this is true, once in a while ill do weird things like not eat for 5-6 hours because i dont feel well and then ill go hit some poses and everything pops better than 2 days prior when i was eating every 2 hours. definitely something to say for that. sometimes i feel like the muscles just want to pop regardless of what i eat and sometimes no matter how much i eat they dont want to pop.

[Provo82]

I've tried training fasted and it doesn't work for me. I don't read "science articles" and I'm sure you could find articles that contradict one other. Your body does store amino acids but I need the carbs in my system to give me the energy I need to train with intensity.

I've just learned over decades of training what works best for me. I have a fast metabolism so even when I prep for shows I take in more carbs than most. That's just how my body functions.

i think also how lean kev is all the time plays a role. think about it guys precontest imagine training fasted 2 weeks out i think most of us would feel like shit. yet at 12 percent or higher i think we could be pretty damn strong and energized.

[bushmaster]

i think also how lean kev is all the time plays a role. think about it guys precontest imagine training fasted 2 weeks out i think most of us would feel like shit. yet at 12 percent or higher i think we could be pretty damn strong and energized.

How lean would just mean he needs more glycogen (carbs). I really don't think the timing on those carbs make much difference. Maybe he does need more but what's the difference the night before or the day of? Either way it's an energy source. If it's not used when taken in it can still be used later. If this weren't true then why do some of the best training sessions come the day after a cheat and not the day of?

I don't claim to know one way or the other but most in this world do not think outside the box.

It's just like what EO does. One day he can eat ridiculous amounts, the next is almost an Ethiopian diet. At the end of the week he is at a moderate surplus which is why he can gain staying lean.

[KevinCouch]

How lean would just mean he needs more glycogen (carbs). I really don't think the timing on those carbs make much difference. Maybe he does need more but what's the difference the night before or the day of? Either way it's an energy source. If it's not used when taken in it can still be used later. If this weren't true then why do some of the best training sessions come the day after a cheat and not the day of?

I don't claim to know one way or the other but most in this world do not think outside the box.

It's just like what EO does. One day he can eat ridiculous amounts, the next is almost an Ethiopian diet. At the end of the week he is at a moderate surplus which is why he can gain staying lean.

I think outside the box more than most BM. I've been doing this a long time and I have had to use trial and error with my training and nutrition for damn near 35 years now to get results. I am telling you how my body responds and what I need. I have never subscribed to what one writes or some study says or doesn't say. I know what my body needs to perform at the highest level.

When Bob says better performance and strength in a fasted state well that isn't the case at all with me. If Bob feels he's progressing at a decent pace and he's happy with the results then it works for him. I will restate what Phil stated earlier that maybe he would be getting better results if he didn't train fasted.

I don't need more glycogen in my body because I don't train first thing in the morning fasted. I'll train sometimes 5 or 6 hours after eating and my training is just fine no problems. What I'm talking about is going 10-12 hours of overnight fasting. I would need a pre and intra shake to get me through. Even then I couldn't train with the intensity that I normally do.

Another variable that hasn't been discussed is enhanced BBs vs natural BBs. In Bob's case he's natural so he needs to make sure he takes advantage of every single nutrient he places in his body and the timing of his training to get optimal results from his training. With enhanced guys they can still train hard get good pumps because they are always in an anabolic state.

I too don't claim to know the "science" behind fasted training but it's only logical that if you go 10-12 hours without eating and train with heavy resistance that you won't have the glycogen stores in your body that you would if your last meal was 2 hours prior. Example is I weigh about 3 pounds lighter first thing in the morning than I do before I go to bed. It's burned up.

Just sharing my experiences. If someone disagrees with me that's fine. That's why there's a ton of different coaches and trainers with different opinions and philosophies because we all don't do the same thing to get to where we want to go.

[Mr.Dedication]

I would consume them pre, during, and post workout. Or pre, post, and post-post workout. I would also try to make sure that my workout is not before bed.

[bushmaster]

I think outside the box more than most BM. I've been doing this a long time and I have had to use trial and error with my training and nutrition for damn near 35 years now to get results. I am telling you how my body responds and what I need. I have never subscribed to what one writes or some study says or doesn't say. I know what my body needs to perform at the highest level.

When Bob says better performance and strength in a fasted state well that isn't the case at all with me. If Bob feels he's progressing at a decent pace and he's happy with the results then it works for him. I will restate what Phil stated earlier that maybe he would be getting better results if he didn't train fasted.

I don't need more glycogen in my body because I don't train first thing in the morning fasted. I'll train sometimes 5 or 6 hours after eating and my training is just fine no problems. What I'm talking about is going 10-12 hours of overnight fasting. I would need a pre and intra shake to get me through. Even then I couldn't train with the intensity that I normally do.

Another variable that hasn't been discussed is enhanced BBs vs natural BBs. In Bob's case he's natural so he needs to make sure he takes advantage of every single nutrient he places in his body and the timing of his training to get optimal results from his training. With enhanced guys they can still train hard get good pumps because they are always in an anabolic state.

I too don't claim to know the "science" behind fasted training but it's only logical that if you go 10-12 hours without eating and train with heavy resistance that you won't have the glycogen stores in your body that you would if your last meal was 2 hours prior. Example is I weigh about 3 pounds lighter first thing in the morning than I do before I go to bed. It's burned up.

Just sharing my experiences. If someone disagrees with me that's fine. That's why there's a ton of different coaches and trainers with different opinions and philosophies because we all don't do the same thing to get to where we want to go.

I wasn't referring to anyone in particular when I stated most don't think outside the box. I guess most do but I am on another planet. I like to question why and how everything works.

You totally missed my point. Glycogen is needed because that's what provides your energy. If you didn't have a pre workout carb you would then be depending on these reserves.

I respect your experience but like you said there is no one way to do this. Is your way superior? Who knows. What I am trying to get across is that if you took in your full days worth of carbs the night prior I doubt you would notice a drastic difference.

The weight you speak of is water weight that you drop overnight and doesn't directly relate to glycogen stores. Once you wake up and drink you will fill out again. It's no different than peaking for a show.

[KevinCouch]

I wasn't referring to anyone in particular when I stated most don't think outside the box. I guess most do but I am on another planet. I like to question why and how everything works.

You totally missed my point. Glycogen is needed because that's what provides your energy. If you didn't have a pre workout carb you would then be depending on these reserves.

I respect your experience but like you said there is no one way to do this. Is your way superior? Who knows. What I am trying to get across is that if you took in your full days worth of carbs the night prior I doubt you would notice a drastic difference.

The weight you speak of is water weight that you drop overnight and doesn't directly relate to glycogen stores. Once you wake up and drink you will fill out again. It's no different than peaking for a show.

You're stating the extreme case if I took in 300-400 grams of carbs before bed then my workout would be just fine. It probably would be just fine. I don't take in a days worth of carbs at bedtime. Not many do I would guess. Does Bob? Probably not. I don't usually get up a take a leak overnight so I don't lose 3 or 4 pounds of only water weight overnight. And it takes me a few meals to get back to my body weight I was the night before so I respectfully disagree.

Bottom line here, If you ask 10 bodybuilders what their training and nutritional protocol is you'd get many different variations. If what you're doing works for you then stick with it. I will go back to Bob's particular situation though. If he's a hardgainer (he claims to be) and unless he intakes a boat load of carbs at bedtime I think he may want to try and get a meal or two in before he trains. If he's unable to do so then just make sure he's drinking a pre and intra shake to get him through.

[Mac]

Fasted cardio isn't going to build you ANY muscle. You'd be hard pressed to keep what you have if you train hard unless you had a good glycogen store from your meals the prior day.

FC helped me to get shredded but I gave up too much muscle doing it. I am not enhanced but I agree with Kevin and cannot train hard in the fasted state to grow. Which is why I didn't grow much for many years. I never was a big eater.

I like my carbs before training and more with protein post workout.

[Provo82]

I think outside the box more than most BM. I've been doing this a long time and I have had to use trial and error with my training and nutrition for damn near 35 years now to get results. I am telling you how my body responds and what I need. I have never subscribed to what one writes or some study says or doesn't say. I know what my body needs to perform at the highest level.

When Bob says better performance and strength in a fasted state well that isn't the case at all with me. If Bob feels he's progressing at a decent pace and he's happy with the results then it works for him. I will restate what Phil stated earlier that maybe he would be getting better results if he didn't train fasted.

I don't need more glycogen in my body because I don't train first thing in the morning fasted. I'll train sometimes 5 or 6 hours after eating and my training is just fine no problems. What I'm talking about is going 10-12 hours of overnight fasting. I would need a pre and intra shake to get me through. Even then I couldn't train with the intensity that I normally do.

Another variable that hasn't been discussed is enhanced BBs vs natural BBs. In Bob's case he's natural so he needs to make sure he takes advantage of every single nutrient he places in his body and the timing of his training to get optimal results from his training. With enhanced guys they can still train hard get good pumps because they are always in an anabolic state.

I too don't claim to know the "science" behind fasted training but it's only logical that if you go 10-12 hours without eating and train with heavy resistance that you won't have the glycogen stores in your body that you would if your last meal was 2 hours prior. Example is I weigh about 3 pounds lighter first thing in the morning than I do before I go to bed. It's burned up.

Just sharing my experiences. If someone disagrees with me that's fine. That's why there's a ton of different coaches and trainers with different opinions and philosophies because we all don't do the same thing to get to where we want to go.

you make a really good point in here ,before i ever used aas or hrt if i trained without eating a meal 1.5 hours before or skipped a meal the day before i would notice a big energy drop and a big strength drop. gear does make a big diff. i believe bob is lifetime clean so i guess his body is different than mine was.

[Sandpig]

I train early am and then have a tough physical job after that.

Although I don't believe it matters how you divide your carbs up, I like to spread them throughout the day because of the job.

I eat a ton of carbs now. Probably around 400 on non training days and 500+ on training and I only weigh 195. I used to think my body didn't like them.

Guess that comes from hanging with Jay once in a while.