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  1. #1
    Moderator Mobster's Avatar
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    Default Stretch, stretch and s-t-r-e-t-c-h some more

    So, every so often and especially when I am in full on training for a competition, I am reminded that I ought to do more flexibility work. It was ever thus lol. In training, which is less a life long pursuit of holistic health but more a head long rush to kick ass strength, victory, glory and medals there is little in the way of a balanced approach. Not just in nutrition, which focuses on protein (although I am 'somewhat' sensible), rest (better as I almost rest too much now) but more so in training.



    Herein lies the problem. IF I was, and I'm not so far away from this as for it to be that much of an issue, a professional and was 'living the life' then there'd be a little more massage and physio work, a little more steam and sauna and perhaps a trainer or coach to nag me about balance and all that this means. Instead I tend towards an 'do only this and this only' approach. It's gotten me four British and two European titles. But it also means over tight hamstrings and hips being opposed by powerful quads and glutes in the lower body. My lower back, being pulled from below by the aforementioned muscles, reminds me of it's tightness. Upper body it's a left arm bicep tendonitis being caused by heavy pulling and lots of cheat curls and a tendency towards nothing but an incline seated press for shoulders and flat heavy benching for chest.If I was less inclined to compete (a time fast approaching my readily ancient ass now) and being strong there's a solid argument - as it ought to be for most - towards a more holistic approach. Meaning...



    So called 'Holistic' training, much approved by those that earn their living fixing your physical problems (osteopaths, masseuse, sports physios, chiropractors and the like) and thus, if we all did as we ought to and not as we do the same group would be looking for another form of employment ha ha, is that where we training for ALL ROUND health. The combination of strength and muscle tone, added to healthy nutritious eating and finished off with suppleness, flexibility and balance. BUT... in order to be a great athlete, of any kind, one might argue that some in-balance comes with the territory. So, if by way of example, you decided the javelin records were your thing surely in order to be a world class thrower you are, in essence, putting the throwing arm and shoulder girdle at risk (to a lesser degree other parts too). I've said that any world records I have hit and may even still have, much as with anyone else with one or more, must involve me taking my body past those who did not push themselves to an extreme. So we have the rub. I train obsessively, as one needs to do, motivating myself passed discomfort order, if I get it right to first win the comp, win the events, kick whoever turned ups ass, take the records and bring home ALL the f'kin medals. but I also pay a price.



    What I need to do and what I suggest here you also do is set aside a little time to f'kin stretch your tight ass muscles out. To do rehab. To get some expert to use their magic fingers and ply their trade on your knots, your scar tissue, those adhesion caused by training truma and fix your sorry ass. I had, as I called it today, a little orange warning light come on my metaphorical dashboard. I ignored it (mostly) last week when it flashed but it stopped me training today. I'm not injured but damn it's sore and tight (lower back and hamstrings again). So I've an appointment with an Osteopath Monday and will be stretching every damn day between now and my up-coming competition.



    You've been warned - do your damn stretches!!
    06, 08, 09 and now 2010 British (4x) and 2008/2010 European Grip Champion (2x)

  2. #2
    FREAK cook's Avatar
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    I know to do this and when I lay down and stretch for even 10 minutes before bed it helps tremendously and then damming I get lax in doing it and before you know it I haven't stretched in a couple of months.I have got to get back in the habit of stretching.Thanks Mobster

  3. #3

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    Role of muscle fiber hypertrophy and hyperplasia in intermittently stretched avian muscle.

    In the chronic stretch model, muscle fiber hyperplasia precedes fiber hypertrophy [Alway et al. Am. J. Physiol. 259 (Cell Physiol. 28): C92-C102, 1990]. This study was undertaken to determine if an intermittent stretch protocol would induce fiber hypertrophy without fiber hyperplasia. A weight equalt to 10% of the bird's mass was attached to the right wing of seven adult quail while the left wing served as the intra-animal control. The weight was attached to the wing for 24-h periods interspersed with a 48- to 72-hr rest interval. The actual stretch time was 5 days while the length of the treatment period was 15 days. Muscle mass and length increased significantly 53.1 +/- 9.0 and 26.1 +/- 7.3% in the stretched anterior latissimus dorsi. Fiber number, which was determined from a histological section in the midregion of the muscle, did not change (control 1,651.6 +/- 94.8; stretch 1,626.0 +/- 70.9). The slow tonic fiber areas increased significantly an average of 28.6 +/- 5.7%, whereas the fast fibers increased 18.5 +/- 8.4% when compared with control values. Mean fiber area (average of slow and fast fibers) increased significantly by 27.8 +/- 6.0% in the stretched anterior latissimus dorsi. There were no differences in the percentage of slow fibers or volume density of noncontractile tissue. These data indicate that muscle adapts differently to intermittent stretch than it does to chronic stretch despite an equivalent load and stretch duration. In contrast to chronic stretch, 5 days of intermittent stretch produces muscle fiber hypertrophy without fiber hyperplasia.

  4. #4
    OLYMPIAN KTTraining's Avatar
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    Absolutely ... They are easy to pass on , but very beneficial .
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    Managing Dir., Rx Muscle Forums Curt James's Avatar
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    ^^^ Ouch.

    I need to call my chiropractor. Lol
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  6. #6
    Moderator Mobster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cook View Post
    I know to do this and when I lay down and stretch for even 10 minutes before bed it helps tremendously and then damming I get lax in doing it and before you know it I haven't stretched in a couple of months.I have got to get back in the habit of stretching.Thanks Mobster
    Thanks. This is how I am. Hence the osteo visit.
    06, 08, 09 and now 2010 British (4x) and 2008/2010 European Grip Champion (2x)

  7. #7
    Moderator Mobster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeastFitness View Post
    Role of muscle fiber hypertrophy and hyperplasia in intermittently stretched avian muscle.

    In the chronic stretch model, muscle fiber hyperplasia precedes fiber hypertrophy [Alway et al. Am. J. Physiol. 259 (Cell Physiol. 28): C92-C102, 1990]. This study was undertaken to determine if an intermittent stretch protocol would induce fiber hypertrophy without fiber hyperplasia. A weight equalt to 10% of the bird's mass was attached to the right wing of seven adult quail while the left wing served as the intra-animal control. The weight was attached to the wing for 24-h periods interspersed with a 48- to 72-hr rest interval. The actual stretch time was 5 days while the length of the treatment period was 15 days. Muscle mass and length increased significantly 53.1 +/- 9.0 and 26.1 +/- 7.3% in the stretched anterior latissimus dorsi. Fiber number, which was determined from a histological section in the midregion of the muscle, did not change (control 1,651.6 +/- 94.8; stretch 1,626.0 +/- 70.9). The slow tonic fiber areas increased significantly an average of 28.6 +/- 5.7%, whereas the fast fibers increased 18.5 +/- 8.4% when compared with control values. Mean fiber area (average of slow and fast fibers) increased significantly by 27.8 +/- 6.0% in the stretched anterior latissimus dorsi. There were no differences in the percentage of slow fibers or volume density of noncontractile tissue. These data indicate that muscle adapts differently to intermittent stretch than it does to chronic stretch despite an equivalent load and stretch duration. In contrast to chronic stretch, 5 days of intermittent stretch produces muscle fiber hypertrophy without fiber hyperplasia.
    Avian - as in bird. Lord knows what they did to the poor birds to elicit hypertrophy from stretching.
    06, 08, 09 and now 2010 British (4x) and 2008/2010 European Grip Champion (2x)

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobster View Post
    Avian - as in bird. Lord knows what they did to the poor birds to elicit hypertrophy from stretching.
    HAHA!

    In all honestly though, real world application results are incredible!

  9. #9
    Moderator Mobster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeastFitness View Post
    HAHA!

    In all honestly though, real world application results are incredible!
    Evidence? I've seen stuff on Hyperplasia before (muscle cell splitting right?). The original stuff was done on cats and involved weights and electric shocks. Years later we had a few bodybuilders using those pads which make the muscle spasm (I forget what they're called) during a workout and at the point of contraction. Bob Kennedy in Muscle Mag featured a Canadian Pro using them. Nothing came of it. Parillo et al have done the fascia stretching thing (aka room to grow). Is this new?
    06, 08, 09 and now 2010 British (4x) and 2008/2010 European Grip Champion (2x)

  10. #10
    OLYMPIAN KTTraining's Avatar
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    lol... I bet you would do great and feel even better after a while . Believe me , Curt.. it takes a while for me to loosen up as well .

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobster View Post
    Evidence? I've seen stuff on Hyperplasia before (muscle cell splitting right?). The original stuff was done on cats and involved weights and electric shocks. Years later we had a few bodybuilders using those pads which make the muscle spasm (I forget what they're called) during a workout and at the point of contraction. Bob Kennedy in Muscle Mag featured a Canadian Pro using them. Nothing came of it. Parillo et al have done the fascia stretching thing (aka room to grow). Is this new?
    Are you talking in terms of actual research or application? I have both haha

  12. #12
    Moderator Mobster's Avatar
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    I'm saying neither. In fact (and feel free to show me I'm wrong), thus far you've proved adept at putting up the gists of studies. Real world application by either yourself of clients has not been forthcoming. Given I've trained and so read on the subject for 36 of my 51 years I'm experienced and or old enough to have seen studies, including references to ones you've presented.

    Thus I know that John Parillo et al (heck he even featured Tom Platz on the cover) did stuff on fascia stretching. It's part of what the name FST-7 stands for. I'm aware of studies on Hyperplasia (in so far as to mean muscle cell splitting) with the suggestion that Flex Wheeler may, as well as a myostatin inhibitor gene, have had more cells per cm than most. I know that these studies and those on the electric pads on muscles stuff go back years - and years.

    Ergo NOTHING PRESENTED IS NEW. I also know that even the introduction of the studies and references to our world via coaches, magazines and the internet have yet to claim so new freak created from the ideas. No one has claimed to have created such a 'monster' as it were.

    But again crack on and show me. In my own defense nothing I wrote was new. The benefits of stretching are well known. It is, however, all my own words.
    Last edited by Mobster; 04-06-2016 at 11:38 AM.
    06, 08, 09 and now 2010 British (4x) and 2008/2010 European Grip Champion (2x)

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobster View Post
    I'm saying neither. In fact (and feel free to show me I'm wrong), thus far you've proved adept at putting up the gists of studies. Real world application by either yourself of clients has not been forthcoming. Given I've trained and so read on the subject for 36 of my 51 years I'm experienced and or old enough to have seen studies, including references to ones you've presented.

    Thus I know that John Parillo et al (heck he even featured Tom Platz on the cover) did stuff on fascia stretching. It's part of what the name FST-7 stands for. I'm aware of studies on Hyperplasia (in so far as to mean muscle cell splitting) with the suggestion that Flex Wheeler may, as well as a myostatin inhibitor gene, have had more cells per cm than most. I know that these studies and those on the electric pads on muscles stuff go back years - and years.

    Ergo NOTHING PRESENTED IS NEW. I also know that even the introduction of the studies and references to our world via coaches, magazines and the internet have yet to claim so new freak created from the ideas. No one has claimed to have created such a 'monster' as it were.

    But again crack on and show me. In my own defense nothing I wrote was new. The benefits of stretching are well known. It is, however, all my own words.
    So your telling me you have implemented things such as extreme stretching protocols (popularized mainly by Dante Trudel) or intra-set stretching and seen zero benefit?

    I'm a little confused as you seem mad for no reason
    Last edited by BeastFitness; 04-06-2016 at 11:46 AM.

  14. #14
    Moderator Mobster's Avatar
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    Dante came after Parillo. Well after. And for myself my self written, not copied and pasted, article suggests clearly I don't think I stretch nearly often enough lol.

    What I asked for was real world evidence that the techniques discussed, FST etc, was producing results.

    Let's take the FST-7 protocol. Hany Rambod has several well known clients. Most well-known is, of course, Phil Heath. Phil, as we all know, is current Mr Olympia. However, like most top bodybuilders he has several very good genetic advantages. IF and I'm suggesting it's a NO, we could claim that FST-7 and similar was producing Phil Heath like results in many bodybuilders (ideally in an average Joe type body) then we'd really be on to something special.

    It's all to easy to show the summery of a study, done under what is often very odd conditions See my comment regarding the origin of studies into Hyperplasia by way of example. I'll add a reference to a similar study at the end (showing how easy it is lol). Now whether it's a Avian (bird chest muscle stretching) or Feline (cat) study doesn't matter. It begs the question as to whether or not the info is useful to humans and if so why haven't we seen said info producing the kind of results across the board we ought to be seeing?

    https://www.coursehero.com/file/p30r...g-Hyperplasia/

    I'm thinking of a few reasons.
    1) The conditions used have no real world application. In other words, a la the 9% increase in muscle fibre count in cats, only happened because they had to perform at a very high level throughout the day in order to feed - in order, in fact, not to starve. The rats, shocked with electricity were, in essence, tortured. Short of taking a cattle prod to a would be pro's ass when he's training (or a gun etc to the head) we're not gonna see few if any lifting to the point where results are forth coming. Ergo zero hyperplasia, or claims of it, from a training system.
    2) Genetic advantage - see above. Phil looked muscular as a Basketball player etc etc
    3) Fascia Stretching and the like: I'd wanna see a before and after. Taking even a decent level apparently maxed out potential bodybuilder and putting them through a similar protocol and then showing growth. Remove or keep the same other protocols (PED and site injection being the obvious) and going X had a 22-inch arm and FST et al has produced 24-inches.

    We agree stretching for health and flexibility is useful. But you stated 'In all honestly though, real world application results are incredible!' and I responded 'evidence?'. So evidence please.
    06, 08, 09 and now 2010 British (4x) and 2008/2010 European Grip Champion (2x)

  15. #15
    Moderator Mobster's Avatar
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    By the way (I looked right after the last post) I see that you consistently post both positive and negative studies some of which are useful in so far as to be done on actual humans. A referenced to real world results in TUT, by way of example, is one I'd agree with. Be that a super-slow protocol or a volume approach using no rest between reps TUT is, arguably, what produces muscle growth (when all else is stripped away).
    06, 08, 09 and now 2010 British (4x) and 2008/2010 European Grip Champion (2x)

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