Beyond AAS....INSULIN

[FoodFreak]

Guys,

Hoping to get a good discussion going here on insulin. Insulin is undoubtedly a main contributor to today's biggest freaks looking the way they do. Insulin is an interesting and somewhat complex compound to understand (specifically when optimizing its use for bodybuilding). There are plenty of conventional recommendations for PWO insulin use blah blah we all have heard this before- fast acting insulin with 7-10carbs per iu and then a clean carb+protein+low fat meal 1:30mins after this to ensure quick acting preferential nutrients during the end of the insulin's active window.

There are a few other theories I wish to touch on here:

-One belongs to Milos Sarcev and the like- PRE-workout insulin use

some info here:(if anyone has links- post away) However he advocates using fast acting insulin PRE workout and then making sure to have available nutrients to be driven into the muscle during the workout (when blood flow to muscle is maximized). we can discuss details later on

comments:I am a firm believer that pre/intra workout nutrition is as, if not more important that post workout nutrition. Recent studies are suggesting this as well. I have had much success with myself and my clients using a pre/intra workout nutrition program (with and without exogenous insulin use). Again, details later

-The other belongs to a fellow board member- Maxititer - LONG ACTING insulin use.

some info here:

[ame="http://forums.rxmuscle.com/showthread.php?p=204402"]Insulin simplified (as requested) - RX Muscle Forums[/ame]


comments: This is a view that troubles people. As humans we naturally secrete basal insulin in response to food intake. However Maxititer suggests that providing supra-physiological doses of long acting insulin keeps the body in a stronger anti-catabolic and anabolic state. (keep in mind this state of anabolism occurs for FAT as much as it does MUSCLE - insulin isn't selective). The two drugs mainly discussed here are Lantus (preferred) and levemir (only advantage is purportedly less fat accumulation). I would be interested to get a discussion going about this- What type of advantage the exogenous insulin will have over natural basal insulin, what type of nutritional changes must occur to compensate for the additional insulin, does this method TRULY not interfere with endogenous insulin production? etc

[TheTransformator]

Insulin is only of interest at the very top level...HGH and Insulin produces a nice big belly...as we can see every F*ckin day...not worth it in my opinion...

[FoodFreak]

Insulin is only of interest at the very top level...HGH and Insulin produces a nice big belly...as we can see every F*ckin day...not worth it in my opinion...

True, usually mediated via increases in IGF-1 - causing organ growth. I think discussing how to best use insulin can promote LESS AAS use. Not to mention be much more effective

[NPCKnight]

I agree FoodFreak.


TheTransformator...I think you should/could be a little more positive and could think some things out better that you post. No hate bro just my opinion.

Even though I have not used Insulin, I have educated myself on its use. Through conversations with one of my prep guys/trainers who is a former NPC bodybuilder and now a Doctor, he has convinced me that even though insulin does 'blur lines' and take away from the deep cuts that many bodybuilders from the 80s had..it can PROBABLY be used intelligently and sparingly to add an extra 15lbs or so without 'damaging' or taking away from a physique.

I do agree Intra workout nutrition is where its at and I DO believe that pre workout insulin would be best. Milos advocates at least 15g per IU if you do it this way. I also feel that there is the same potential for growth or MOREso than post workout insulin and it seems a lot of Milos' athletes make VERY lean gains. Coincidence? I doubt it.

I lost my notes from the Off Topic he was on(the 2nd time) where he explained the Slin use. From what I remember 5-10IU with AT LEAST 15g per IU pre workout. Also use BCAA, Creatine, Glutamine with some fast acting sugars.
My personal preferences would be Vitargo by GENR8 or Karbolyn by Professional Supplements. Dextrose would be third option but also the most economical.
I absolutely would not use waxy maize because I do not believe soundly in the science SUPPOSEDLY behind it.
If anyone has more details to add that they remember Milos divulging...feel free to add.

[FoodFreak]

I agree FoodFreak.


TheTransformator...I think you should/could be a little more positive and could think some things out better that you post. No hate bro just my opinion.

Even though I have not used Insulin, I have educated myself on its use. Through conversations with one of my prep guys/trainers who is a former NPC bodybuilder and now a Doctor, he has convinced me that even though insulin does 'blur lines' and take away from the deep cuts that many bodybuilders from the 80s had..it can PROBABLY be used intelligently and sparingly to add an extra 15lbs or so without 'damaging' or taking away from a physique.

I do agree Intra workout nutrition is where its at and I DO believe that pre workout insulin would be best. Milos advocates at least 15g per IU if you do it this way. I also feel that there is the same potential for growth or MOREso than post workout insulin and it seems a lot of Milos' athletes make VERY lean gains. Coincidence? I doubt it.

Definitely. I have seen very similar results with my clients. I do things a little differently . I have them eat a balanced meal (containing carbs) ~1 hour pre workout, then about 15 minutes pre-workout take 5-10iu HUMALOG, followed by half of a 50-100g (depending on insulin dose) dextrose + 25g BCAA + 1-g Glutamine + 5g Creatine shake. The rest of the shake is then diluted and sipped throughout the workout.

Because I do not advocate giant set training, the 15g carb per iu can be a bit excessive IMO. I recommend INTRAMUSCULAR injection of the insulin for faster onset and clearance. Generally the shake is completed by the end of the workout at which point I suggest 10mcg-20mcg INTRAMUSCULAR IGF-1 injection. (PWO is when these receptor sites are up-regulated). This is then followed by another balanced meal (containing carbs)- the fat intake does not need to be 'restricted' per-se in this meal because the insulin was not shot PWO and thus is not 'peaking' come time to eat, rather it ideally peaked during the workout (and shuttled the nutrients that were provided by the shake during this time.) Each athlete is different, some can get away with 10 carbs per iu, some may need more if they experience any hypo. People get all worried that having any fat circulating is going to cause insulin to shuttle the fat into fat cells. Fat slows the absorbtion of carbs thus releasing glucose into the bloodstream slower and causing/requiring less insulin release. Insulin will shuttle ANY EXCESS nutrients into storage. Part of the reason IMO that so many people get fat with slamming 100g of dextrose + 50g whey + 10iu insulin PWO is that 1-the blood is leaving the muscle and returning to the gut/systemic circulation. 2-thats a shit load of sugar to be absorbed at once, undoubtedly some will spill over especially since shooting PWO requires another high carb meal an hour later to 'cover' the fact that insulin is still active- at this point even LESS blood is flowing to the muscle. During a workout, more blood is in the muscle so nutrient storage will preferentially occur there. Also, excess glucose will likely be burned up during the training. This method is trickier because you have to watch for hypo and find the sweet spot for your INTRA workout carb intake . I factor these PRE/INTRA workout carbs into daily totals (thus leading to a majority of the athletes carb intake coming from pre workout meal, intra workout shake and post workout meal.

This method allows for a very anti-catabolic and likely anabolic environment during the training- where blood flow to muscle is optimal and nutrient storage can be maximized in the muscle.

As far as the LONG acting insulin--- I'd be interested to hear these theories. clearly it wouldn't necessitate 'around training' insulin use as glycogen synthesis is ramped up around teh clock. elevated insulin= more consistent anabolic and anti-catabolic environment...the issue thats unclear to me is how to prevent FAT gain. What types of nutritional compensation need be made. It would be nice if we could get Maxititer in here.

[TheTransformator]

I agree FoodFreak.


TheTransformator...I think you should/could be a little more positive and could think some things out better that you post. No hate bro just my opinion.

Even though I have not used Insulin, I have educated myself on its use. Through conversations with one of my prep guys/trainers who is a former NPC bodybuilder and now a Doctor, he has convinced me that even though insulin does 'blur lines' and take away from the deep cuts that many bodybuilders from the 80s had..it can PROBABLY be used intelligently and sparingly to add an extra 15lbs or so without 'damaging' or taking away from a physique.

I do agree Intra workout nutrition is where its at and I DO believe that pre workout insulin would be best. Milos advocates at least 15g per IU if you do it this way. I also feel that there is the same potential for growth or MOREso than post workout insulin and it seems a lot of Milos' athletes make VERY lean gains. Coincidence? I doubt it.

I lost my notes from the Off Topic he was on(the 2nd time) where he explained the Slin use. From what I remember 5-10IU with AT LEAST 15g per IU pre workout. Also use BCAA, Creatine, Glutamine with some fast acting sugars.
My personal preferences would be Vitargo by GENR8 or Karbolyn by Professional Supplements. Dextrose would be third option but also the most economical.
I absolutely would not use waxy maize because I do not believe soundly in the science SUPPOSEDLY behind it.
If anyone has more details to add that they remember Milos divulging...feel free to add.

No offense...but it is my opinion...I saw plenty of guys using it back in the day...and they all developed the pregnant look...I was not there when they used it..to see how much they did...except for a friend...who followed a strict protocol...still his belly got round...he got bigger too (positive side)...

The question is...do you want to scarifice your midsection alittle for more mass..that being said...not everyone reacts the same...

[FoodFreak]

No offense...but it is my opinion...I saw plenty of guys using it back in the day...and they all developed the pregnant look...I was not there when they used it..to see how much they did...except for a friend...who followed a strict protocol...still his belly got round...he got bigger too (positive side)...

The question is...do you want to scarifice your midsection alittle for more mass..that being said...not everyone reacts the same...

This is true, however i highly doubt that we are talking about comparable amounts of insulin+gh use

[NPCKnight]

I agree.
Guys back then had the 'ok lets do this...whats the worst that could happen?' mindset and experimented blindly compared to what we as complete amateurs can now search for and find.
I think now we can all have a better 'idea' starting out than many often had after months of random, risky use to see 'what happens.'

For example....no one these days who was afraid of a major gut developing would ever consider shooting 20-30IU of growth or using 30-40IU of insulin DAILY right? I doubt many/any did SLIN pre workout either back in the day.

HOWEVER, these days we know that 5-10, MAYBE 15 IU of slin can be used intelligently and GH 4-8 IU a day. Or perhaps we would only be using slin on BIG bodypart days. Or lagging days. Or GH every other day instead of every day. My point is there is much more knowledge of what precautions to take THESE DAYS rather than when the 'pioneers' of the sport were figuring things out FOR US.

[jacshelb]

HOWEVER, these days we know that 5-10, MAYBE 15 IU of slin can be used intelligently and GH 4-8 IU a day. Or perhaps we would only be using slin on BIG bodypart days. Or lagging days. Or GH every other day instead of every day. My point is there is much more knowledge of what precautions to take THESE DAYS rather than when the 'pioneers' of the sport were figuring things out FOR US.

Good points man! Glad to have the ability to research and learn. Though, I'll admit I still have some of that "fuck it, let's try this" mentality- but only after really looking into it. I guess we all have our different degrees of recklessness.

[-BLP-]

Insulin is only of interest at the very top level...HGH and Insulin produces a nice big belly...as we can see every F*ckin day...not worth it in my opinion...

is this your belly?

[ame="http://forums.rxmuscle.com/showthread.php?t=20317"]I took up Levrone's challenge...here are my first week results...transforming...YES! - RX Muscle Forums[/ame]

insulin rule!

[TheTransformator]

is this your belly?

I took up Levrone's challenge...here are my first week results...transforming...YES! - RX Muscle Forums

insulin rule!

I never did Insulin back in the day...I'm doing great in my transformation...day 20...thank you...

[FoodFreak]

I agree.
Guys back then had the 'ok lets do this...whats the worst that could happen?' mindset and experimented blindly compared to what we as complete amateurs can now search for and find.
I think now we can all have a better 'idea' starting out than many often had after months of random, risky use to see 'what happens.'

For example....no one these days who was afraid of a major gut developing would ever consider shooting 20-30IU of growth or using 30-40IU of insulin DAILY right? I doubt many/any did SLIN pre workout either back in the day.

HOWEVER, these days we know that 5-10, MAYBE 15 IU of slin can be used intelligently and GH 4-8 IU a day. Or perhaps we would only be using slin on BIG bodypart days. Or lagging days. Or GH every other day instead of every day. My point is there is much more knowledge of what precautions to take THESE DAYS rather than when the 'pioneers' of the sport were figuring things out FOR US.

the high high doses of GH definitely contributed to organ growth. This along with force feeding and higher doses of insulin didnt help. I personally do not see these bloated guts anymore in top elite athletes. I also know alot of athletes (too many to count- professional, amateur and recreational) that make tremendous gains with insulin and have no such bloated guts. Milos sarcev had no bloated gut, nor did any of his clients. (sometimes we all have bloated guts in the offseason frome EATING so much lol). Lets put the gut thing aside and educate ourselves on the science and application of this often overlooked drug- insulin. I know for a fact that this drug is responsible for more of the advances in this sport that we give credit to.

[-BLP-]

10 ui hgh ED / 2 ui slow slin ED (more then that made me tired ) / 6 to 10ui humalog after gym - for me intra is good off cycle , on cycle i prefer slin after and just crash n nap / slin make hgh more efective n slow dosage is enough 2 make it work

[juggernaut]

Insulin is only of interest at the very top level...HGH and Insulin produces a nice big belly...as we can see every F*ckin day...not worth it in my opinion...

agreed

[FoodFreak]

10 ui hgh ED / 2 ui slow slin ED (more then that made me tired ) / 6 to 10ui humalog after gym - for me intra is good off cycle , on cycle i prefer slin after and just crash n nap / slin make hgh more efective n slow dosage is enough 2 make it work

what benefit do you suppose 2iu of long acting insulin provides daily? at such a low dose you are doing very little and could probably notice no difference between that and your regular basal production.