Martin Schoeller, artist or villain?

**Curt James** · 12-24-2009, 03:11 AM

Those photos were taken for a specific effect. Stark portraits.

Here's Kim Harris by photographer, Martin Schoeller.

And Vicki Nixon. I heard him ask Vicki not to smile. Purchase "Beyond the Pain: The Vick Nixon Story" to see the clip of Schoeller photographing Nixon.

Here's Lenda.

Schoeller's photo of Andre Agassi was used on the tennis star's autobiograpy cover.

Here's Angelina Jolie from the same exhibit.

Are Schoeller's photos too stark? Do you consider them art or simply unflattering?

**AnglicanBeachParty** · 12-24-2009, 10:58 AM

I consider Schoeller an artist. However, I think his style tends to de-personalize his subjects. He is (in my opinion) treating the faces as landscapes more than as human faces.

As to whether he is a villain or not, I think that hinges on how forthcoming and honest he was with the women before he photographed them.

I bought the book, and one of the first things I noticed was that Lenda Murray managed to get in a little smirk of a smile (i.e., smiling with one half of her mouth). I don't think Schoeller would have accepted that in his later subjects, but Lenda was photographed by Martin several years earlier than most of the other subjects, and I think he probably never got a chance to try again for a totally non-smiling photo of her.

**sassy69** · 12-24-2009, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by AnglicanBeachParty

I consider Schoeller an artist. However, I think his style tends to de-personalize his subjects. He is (in my opinion) treating the faces as landscapes more than as human faces.

As to whether he is a villain or not, I think that hinges on how forthcoming and honest he was with the women before he photographed them.

I bought the book, and one of the first things I noticed was that Lenda Murray managed to get in a little smirk of a smile (i.e., smiling with one half of her mouth). I don't think Schoeller would have accepted that in his later subjects, but Lenda was photographed by Martin several years earlier than most of the other subjects, and I think he probably never got a chance to try again for a totally non-smiling photo of her.

Yep.

I think this is one of those presentations where you need to know the context - these photos are often posted to start the "looks too manly" FBB-bashing discussions, which really isn't a fair representation of FBBs. I love that Lenda got in an expression - I almost feel the power returning to her, instead of being in the hands of the photographer forcing a certain look.

**Sledge** · 12-24-2009, 03:05 PM

Seems he wants pics devoid of character, expression or emotion. The 3 FBBs do show character if not expression and emotion though.

**Ibarramedia** · 12-24-2009, 03:13 PM

http://www.siouxcountry.com/showthre...rtin+schoeller

Just curious Curt, Did you see the discussion from the link above? It is interesting that in one year's time some of the same people who agreed or liked his work were not liking it one year later. I'm not saying they don't have a right to change their mind. It is just interesting that they did for whatever reason.

What do you think about Joachim Ladefoged's work?

http://www.joachimladefoged.com/#/gallery/5/34/

**debbiebramwell** · 12-24-2009, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by Ibarramedia

http://www.siouxcountry.com/showthre...rtin+schoeller

Just curious Curt, Did you see the discussion from the link above? It is interesting that in one year's time some of the same people who agreed or liked his work were not liking it one year later. I'm not saying they don't have a right to change their mind. It is just interesting that they did for whatever reason.

What do you think about Joachim Ladefoged's work?

http://www.joachimladefoged.com/#/gallery/5/34/

his pics look horrible

**Curt James** · 12-24-2009, 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by Ibarramedia

http://www.siouxcountry.com/showthre...rtin+schoeller

Just curious Curt, Did you see the discussion from the link above? It is interesting that in one year's time some of the same people who agreed or liked his work were not liking it one year later. I'm not saying they don't have a right to change their mind. It is just interesting that they did for whatever reason.

What do you think about Joachim Ladefoged's work?

http://www.joachimladefoged.com/#/gallery/5/34/

I'm not on Sioux's site very much, but I do have a membership there. It's a great site, just don't have the time (aren't they lucky?

)!

People have their own opinion and then often change that opinion to fit in with a group, their friends, or, yes, just because they change their mind, reconsidered the subject independent of anyone's opinion. I agree that it's interesting. And I'd love to know their motivation or why they changed their opinion.

I've seen Ladefoged's photos. I'm no art historian or art critic, but I will say that I like his work and I do agree with ABP about Schoeller treating the face as a landscape rather than as a personality.

**Ibarramedia** · 12-24-2009, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by Curt James

I'm not on Sioux's site very much, but I do have a membership there. It's a great site, just don't have the time (aren't they lucky?

)!

People have their own opinion and then often change that opinion to fit in with a group, their friends, or, yes, just because they change their mind, reconsidered the subject independent of anyone's opinion. I agree that it's interesting. And I'd love to know their motivation or why they changed their opinion.

I've seen Ladefoged's photos. I'm no art historian or art critic, but I will say that I like his work and I do agree with ABP about Schoeller treating the face as a landscape rather than as a personality.

That is why I posted the link there so that you can peruse and see what I was talking about. Within that link, I linked to 3 or 4 other pertinent threads related to the discussion. I like your answer that I highlighted. Particularly intriguing was the commnet you made about some people changing their opinion to fit in with a group or friends. I'm not accusing them of such. I have no way of knowing after all, but the about face in comments one year later is intriguing to me. Within the link i provide are various other picture/coffee table books featuring FBBs. I would only acquire all of them simply because they feature fbbs.

**Curt James** · 12-24-2009, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by Ibarramedia

That is why I posted the link there so that you can peruse and see what I was talking about. Within that link, I linked to 3 or 4 other pertinent threads related to the discussion. I like your answer that I highlighted. Particularly intriguing was the commnet you made about some people changing their opinion to fit in with a group or friends. I'm not accusing them of such. I have no way of knowing after all, but the about face in comments one year later is intriguing to me. Within the link i provide are various other picture/coffee table books featuring FBBs. I would only acquire all of them simply because they feature fbbs.

I'm not either, but am curious about motivation.

I'll check the links. There are a number of books I'd like to take a look through.

**debbiebramwell** · 12-24-2009, 03:17 PM

Hated the book. I had no idea what was going on when I was asked to do this shoot at my show. I sat in the middle of these bright lights told not to make any expression. Thank god my pic wasnt horrible but it certainly was not me at all.I feel bad for every woman in the book. If I would have known what it was for and how it was going to turn out I wouldnt have done it. This book doesnt show him being an artist if you ask me.

**Curt James** · 12-24-2009, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by debbiebramwell

Hated the book. I had no idea what was going on when I was asked to do this shoot at my show. I sat in the middle of these bright lights told not to make any expression. Thank god my pic wasnt horrible but it certainly was not me at all.I feel bad for every woman in the book. If I would have known what it was for and how it was going to turn out I wouldnt have done it. This book doesnt show him being an artist if you ask me.

He really could have shared his vision or approach with the models. Many "artists" are arrogant elitists. I've always been a cartoonist, so you won't see me having too many high art conversations. I love art history, but have never been great at memorizing dates or details. I can appreciate art, but not worth much for aesthetic discussion, etc.

One thing the photographer did was shine a spotlight on the ladies and created or instigated a discussion. People will become curious about the photos and hopefully search for more information on the sport, the women, and images of female physique competitors.

**Mike Pulcinella** · 08-14-2010, 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by debbiebramwell

Hated the book. I had no idea what was going on when I was asked to do this shoot at my show. I sat in the middle of these bright lights told not to make any expression. Thank god my pic wasnt horrible but it certainly was not me at all.I feel bad for every woman in the book. If I would have known what it was for and how it was going to turn out I wouldnt have done it. This book doesnt show him being an artist if you ask me.

I love you Debbie, but I have to disagree. The pix aren't flattering, I know, but they are so REAL that I can't take my eyes off of them.

A posed picture that looks exactly the way YOU want it to look is not the real you. It may be beautiful but it's not truth. Take it from a documentary filmmaker, it is only when the defenses come down and vanity is put aside that true art can come out.

Those pictures tell more about the difficulties of doing what you athletes do than a thousand "pretty" pix. They are inspiring to me and speak deeply about the realities of bodybuilding.

**debbiebramwell** · 08-14-2010, 09:24 PM

Originally Posted by Mike Pulcinella

I love you Debbie, but I have to disagree. The pix aren't flattering, I know, but they are so REAL that I can't take my eyes off of them.

A posed picture that looks exactly the way YOU want it to look is not the real you. It may be beautiful but it's not truth. Take it from a documentary filmmaker, it is only when the defenses come down and vanity is put aside that true art can come out.

Those pictures tell more about the difficulties of doing what you athletes do than a thousand "pretty" pix. They are inspiring to me and speak deeply about the realities of bodybuilding.

Its ok for you to look at it differently lol I guess I am very lucky because like I said I am a very happy person all the time and my journey has been so good(minus the judging...ok take pics of my expressiin then lol)!! why shouldnt I be my true self? It doesnt have to be me giving a big grin. I did a shoot with someone who was having fun with me as we talked and we laughed and he shot candid pics that showed alot of emotion and expression and it was me! Like I said my pic here wasnt bad but some of the other ones were. The video I saw of vicki was different then what I experienced. I never saw a pic or was told what his goal was in the pics. Had he showed me I would of said no thanks.

**Mike Pulcinella** · 08-14-2010, 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by debbiebramwell

Its ok for you to look at it differently lol I guess I am very lucky because like I said I am a very happy person all the time and my journey has been so good(minus the judging...ok take pics of my expressiin then lol)!! why shouldnt I be my true self? It doesnt have to be me giving a big grin. I did a shoot with someone who was having fun with me as we talked and we laughed and he shot candid pics that showed alot of emotion and expression and it was me! Like I said my pic here wasnt bad but some of the other ones were. The video I saw of vicki was different then what I experienced. I never saw a pic or was told what his goal was in the pics. Had he showed me I would of said no thanks.

That's fair. He should have showed you some examples first. I always show prospective clients my previous work before expecting them to be in front of my camera.

**Sledge** · 12-24-2009, 03:22 PM

Just looking at the few pics I've just looked at I don't know if he's an artist. Doesn't an artist need to express something and show some imagination. All the photos I've seen look the same. I get the concept of no expression but pic after pic of no expression is just repeating the same work over and over again.