Discussion on PH balance diet

[Icy.Phoenix]

Hi Everyone,

was hoping to get a discussion started on the PH balance of food.
I was just reading Robbie Durands article where he mentions Evan Centopani's water ionizer and had a few studies posted beneath, but not referenced correctly.

I have also heard Dave Palumbo talk about it on Rx Muscle, and he seems to believe there is some truth to it.

I will copy paste Durand's Article, please let me know what u guys think of it and if you know of any other studies supporting this.

Thanks girls and guys.

The Role of pH and Muscle Mass[/big]
-by Robbie Durand, M.A., Senior Web Editor
This month I spent some time with MD's Evan Centopani, filming his training session in his off-season. Besides noticing that Evan is looking like a beast, I walked into Evan's house and noticed this small apparatus next to the sink that had some blinking lights on the side and was filled with water.
I said, "Evan, what the hell is that?"
Evan explained it was a water ionizer, which adjusted the pH of the water. By using a water ionizer, it helped to create a more basic pH in the body, and reduce blood acidity. Evan explained that he had been doing a lot of reading on the role of pH and health. He is correct that pH has a profound effect on health, but also on muscle mass.

Having na acidic pH not only causes lower muscle mass, but can also lower plasma levels of IGF-1. Having an acidic pH is not conducive to building muscle. In fact, researchers make the blood more basic to counteract losses in muscle mass.

Interestingly, a mild but progressive metabolic acidosis occurs in elderly individuals who are exposed to a continuous challenge from acid-producing diets (e.g., diets relatively rich in meat and cereal grains compared to the fruit and vegetable content). Oral administration of bicarbonate increases blood pH (makes the blood more basic) in a dose-related manner in healthy adults, both at rest and during exercise. Metabolic acidosis has long been known to promote protein breakdown and nitrogen excretion.

In several studies, daily administration of bicarbonate -- which acts as a blood buffer and reduces acidity -- improved muscle power during intense exercise in healthy subjects. However, the role of pH and muscle mass has never been clearly defined, so researchers set out to examine if blood pH has any effect on muscle mass.

Researchers from Tufts University examined 162 older adults and had them consume either a treatment with potsasium bicarbonate, sodicum bicarbonate, potassium chloride, or a placebo. Remember that bicarbonates reduce blood acidity and promonte a more alkaline environment. Interestingly, after three months of supplementation, only the bicarbonate altered the amount of acid production. The reduction in acid production resulted in less nitrogen excretion (greatr protein retention) iin men.

In the men, the change in net acid excretion (the amount of acid being excreted from the body) was positively correlated with how much nitrogen was being lost. Although nitrogen excretion is not a specific indicator of muscle breakdown, in the setting of stable protein intake, exercise level, and bodyweight, a decrease in nitrogen excretion is consistent with decreased net muscle catabolism.

Treatement with bicarbonate significantly lowered nitrogen excretion. Therefore, using a blood buffer such as potassium bicarbonate may be a way of reducing muscle tissue breakdown.

Loss of muscle is associated with aging, but this occurs in conjunction with increased blood acidity. A possibility is that muscle wasting is influenced by the mild metabolic acidosis that occurs with aging. With muscle breakdown, amino acids released into the bloodstream provide substrate for the hepatic synthesis of glutamine. Glutamine is used by the kidneys to synthesize ammonia. Glutamine acts as a blood buffer when pH is acidic by being removed from muscle.

So Evan may be on to something good. It seems that drinking alkaline water or eating fruits and vegetables or using a bicarbonate supplement may prevent muscle tissue breakdown.

References
1. Frassetto LA, Morris RC Jr, Sebastian A (1996) Effect of age on blood acid-base composition in adult humans: role of age-related renal functional decline. Am J Physiol, 271:t-22.
2. Douroudos II, Fatouros IG, Gourgoulis V, Jamurtas AZ, Tsitsios T, Hatzinikolaou A, Margonis K, Mavromatidis K, Taxildaris K (2006) Dose-related effects of prolonged NaHCO3 ingestion during high-intensity exercise. Med Scie Sports Exerc, 38:1746-1753.
3. May RC, Kelly RA, Mitch WE (1986) Metabolic acidosis stimulates protein degredation in rat muscle by glucocorticoid dependent mechanism. J Clin Invest, 77:614-621.
4. Mitch WE, Price SR, May RC, Jurkovitz C, England BK (1994) Metabolic consequences of uremia: extending the concept of adaptive responses to protein metabolism. Am J Kidney Dis, 23:224-228.
5. Edge J, Bishop D, Goodman C (2006) The effects of training intensity on muscle buffer capacity in females. Eur J Appl Physiol, 96:97-105.
6. Cersosimo E, Williams PE, Radosevich PM, Hoxworth BT, Lacy WW, Abumrad NN (1986) Role of glutamine in adaptations in nitrogen metabolism during fasting. Am J Physiol, 250:E622-E628.
7. Dawson-Hughes B, Castaneda-Sceppa C, Harris SS, Palermo NJ, Cloutier G, Ceglia L, Dallal GE. Impact of supplementation with bicarbonate on lower-extremity muscle performance in older men and women. Osteoporos Int, 2009 Sep 1.

[RDFinders]

that's interesting to read, but why did they use elderly patients? their stomach ph is already lowered due to less HCl production so they should have loads of muscle, but they do not. granted it is more than just one cause, but you would think they would have a fair amount of muscle due to the change in ph. and the elderly i have worked with, you have to force them to eat meats - they are very tough on their chewing ability and digestion processes. two - how do you counter the chemical reaction in the stomach when HCl is released upon ingesting a basic solution? as that is the key to get it into the blood? also once in the intestines, which is a basic environment, does the ph drop further or is it unchanged?

[Icy.Phoenix]

I have done research regarding the use of Sodium Bicarbonate for lactic acid buffering, and there is a good amount of evidence supporting the hypothesis that Sodium Bicarbonate ingestion will increase performance in athletes endurance related.

[RDFinders]

i have read some also, but no one can explain the digestion mechanism. as the HCl would cancel out the ph of the bicarb and make it neutral?? not sure how much would be released, but you have to get it into the blood and it does not pass through the stomach wall, from my recollection.

[Icy.Phoenix]

Quote:"but why did they use elderly patients? their stomach ph is already lowered due to less HCl production so they should have loads of muscle, but they do not"

Isn't it that acidity is support to create less muscle retention, because we need to break down bone and muscle to counter act the acidity. So if elderly have a lower PH, hence more acidic, they should have less muscle. Did I miss understand something ?

Perhaps the elderly find it hard to eat meats because its self medicative to prevent ingestion of acidic foods ? I have no support for the claim that meats are acidic, but that is the general idea that people use when discussing this topic. So if anyone has more concrete knowledge on it, please post it. Thanks.

[Icy.Phoenix]

Here is a study showing the effect of sodium bicarbonate use on endurance to help buffer the acidity

Effects of chronic NaHCO3 ingestion during interval training on changes to muscle buffer capacity, metabolism, and short-term endurance performance.
Edge J. Bishop D. Goodman C.
Journal of Applied Physiology. 101(3):918-25, 2006 Sep.
[Journal Article. Randomized Controlled Trial. Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't]
UI: 16627675
Authors Full Name
Edge, Johann. Bishop, David. Goodman, Carmel.
AB This study determined the effects of altering the H(+) concentration during interval training, by ingesting NaHCO(3) (Alk-T) or a placebo (Pla-T), on changes in muscle buffer capacity (beta m), endurance performance, and muscle metabolites. Pre- and posttraining peak O(2) uptake (V(O2 peak)), lactate threshold (LT), and time to fatigue at 100% pretraining V(O2 peak) intensity were assessed in 16 recreationally active women. Subjects were matched on the LT, were randomly placed into the Alk-T (n = 8) or Pla-T (n = 8) groups, and performed 8 wk (3 days/wk) of six to twelve 2-min cycle intervals at 140-170% of their LT, ingesting NaHCO(3) or a placebo before each training session (work matched between groups). Both groups had improvements in beta m (19 vs. 9%; P < 0.05) and V(O2 peak) (22 vs. 17%; P < 0.05) after the training period, with no differences between groups. There was a significant correlation between pretraining beta m and percent change in beta m (r = -0.70, P < 0.05). There were greater improvements in both the LT (26 vs. 15%; P = 0.05) and time to fatigue (164 vs. 123%; P = 0.05) after Alk-T, compared with Pla-T. There were no changes to pre- or postexercise ATP, phosphocreatine, creatine, and intracellular lactate concentrations, or pH(i) after training. Our findings suggest that training intensity, rather than the accumulation of H(+) during training, may be more important to improvements in beta m. The group ingesting NaHCO(3) before each training session had larger improvements in the LT and endurance performance, possibly because of a reduced metabolic acidosis during training and a greater improvement in muscle oxidative capacity.

[Icy.Phoenix]

so does that mean it does somehow pass the stomach, to reach the bloodstream to get to the muscle ?

[RDFinders]

Quote:"but why did they use elderly patients? their stomach ph is already lowered due to less HCl production so they should have loads of muscle, but they do not"

Isn't it that acidity is support to create less muscle retention, because we need to break down bone and muscle to counter act the acidity. So if elderly have a lower PH, hence more acidic, they should have less muscle. Did I miss understand something ?

Perhaps the elderly find it hard to eat meats because its self medicative to prevent ingestion of acidic foods ? I have no support for the claim that meats are acidic, but that is the general idea that people use when discussing this topic. So if anyone has more concrete knowledge on it, please post it. Thanks.

no you didn't, i typed it incorrectly. b/c they lack HCl production as they get older, the ph of the stomach goes up. pardon me. as elderly are at an increased risk of pernicious anemia. so if ph is higher, then why aren't we seeing less frail elderly?

[Icy.Phoenix]

perhaps it has to do with with the acidity in the blood near the muscles ? Which would affect it in the muscular area ?

im just talking out of my butt now, trying to find a reason for it

[RDFinders]

well it does bypass the stomach. the body has a store of it as it is released in the small intestine when chyme enters from the stomach. hence neutralize the acid food entering the intestines. ingestion of sodium bicarb has always been related to excessive gas, but it is dose dependent. also absorption is effected in the jejenum of the small intestine and the presence of gastric acid can interfere with absorption of the sodium. but this is more an electrochemical gradient absorption and may be that is why in the stomach it isn't an issue???? not sure. but this is good discussion. i know with the raw food diet and following a vegetarian/vegan diet, the ph of the body is increased b/c of the lack of animal proteins. but those three groups are not notoriously known for their bodybuilding efforts.