BULKING: More important: Carbs vs. Fats?

[Andre Gregoire]

In a caloric deficit I prefer to do keto type diets and I believe there is definitely an advantage to having low insulin levels while dieting but when you go to maintenance or beyond there is no benefit to having carbs low and fats high in my opinion.

Once you have a caloric surplus fat is the easiest macronutrient to store as fat, carbs is second and protein is third. So if you are eating maintenance then having a high fat diet is fine but when you start eating above your maintenance level fat gains come pretty fast.

Studies show there is very little de novo lipogenesis (making of new fat) in humans who are not insulin resistant; you store the excess dietary fat you consume. Excess being the keyword here.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...&ordinalpos=12

I tend to start a diet plan by setting protein at 1.5g per lb of LBM and fats at 0.5g per lb of LBM then the rest is carbs, that is my diet baseline. The only diet variable is carbs.

So for example protein would be 300g and fat would be 100g always and when the calories get really low then it's almost a keto, on maintenance I might have 225g of carbs per day and when bulking it might be 400g.

This level of fat seems optimal for hormonal production in natural athletes. It comes out to about 30% of calories from fats on a maintenance diet.

I am flexible with protein and believe that more or better quality protein might be better but 1.5g/lbm is my minimum.

Carbs increase insulin levels, insulin is anti-catabolic, decreases gluconeogenesisis from protein so protein sparring, lowers shbg which increases free testosterone...

In a caloric surplus, when carbs are present the body will oxidize carbs instead of fats:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8...&ordinalpos=24

I have tried higher calorie low carb diets because I feel so good on hypocaloric keto diets but the thing is they never worked out as well in practice as in theory.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against low carb diets or high fats and I would love to learn more about fatty acid metabolism and how it can contribute to skeletal muscle protein synthesis when they are very elevated. This is just the way I see it.

Just my cents Canadian!

[wilderbeast]

My two cents...

Fats are more important. They can be used as the necessary EFAs to aid in cellular and muscle tissue repair and/or be used as energy to fuel activity. Carbs are only good to use as fuel; they DO NOT directly aid in building lean muscle whereas fats DO. Plus fats give you more caloric bang for your buck at 9 cal/g compared to 4 cal/g of carbs. Not to mention the whole host of metabolic issues that excessive carbohydrate intake can cause. Some may disagree, but in my opinion fats are more essential.

BEAST

[Darkseid]

Yes, but just how much is needed and which types? What exact component?

I think thats going to depend on how much your body can handle, by doing trail and error you can get that answered...

And about the types? simples just after working out and complex at the other times of the day.

[raylove]

So could you guys say for a typical bodybuilder in the offseason a good plan might be

meal 1(breakfast) protein and 100g carbs
meal 2 protein fat
meal 3 protein carbs 100 g
workout
meal 4 protein carbs 100g
meal 5 protein fat
meal 6 (dinner)protein fat, carbs optional to sub for this say 50 g or so...
meal 7 protein fat

maybe about 20-35 g of fat at the fatty meals

and depending on look and feel increase or decrease fat?

[latimus]

And if i remember correctly you started your prep out being super lean What would you consider a large amount of healthy fats? and what are your favorite sources?

yah I generally start out pretty lean around 8-10%. I am 10 weeks out now about 6%.

I probably take in 20-30g of fat per meal 7 meals a day in offseason.

usually I add couple tablespoons of natty PB or olive oil or grapseed on top of each shake. with meals huge handfuls of nuts (almonds, cashews, or mixed. I also eat 7 whole omega eggs at a time and cook them in EVO.

[Rep300]

If I just stay on a constant "bulking" diet with the carbs OR the fats too high, the total calories just catch up to me and I get too heavy and smooth.

I much prefer to set up a diet with lots of good clean carbs and SOME healthy fats, using basic protein sources, like steak/chicken/egg whites+ whole/whey powder. Not TOO crazu on the cals, but enough to keep me full and getting crazy pumps. THEN I like to add in cheat meals (restaurant and home cooked) on top to move my weight slightly.

Just gauging my the mirror.

[AVBG]

So could you guys say for a typical bodybuilder in the offseason a good plan might be

meal 1(breakfast) protein and 100g carbs
meal 2 protein fat
meal 3 protein carbs 100 g
workout
meal 4 protein carbs 100g
meal 5 protein fat
meal 6 (dinner)protein fat, carbs optional to sub for this say 50 g or so...
meal 7 protein fat

maybe about 20-35 g of fat at the fatty meals

and depending on look and feel increase or decrease fat?

I wonder how many bodybuilders actually eat like that in the offseason? I can only get into a plan like that when I am dieting.

[diamonddelts]

Just eat for gods sake its not rocketscience

[zachdg]

I just recently cut my carbs to about 100g per day just to see what would happen. My strength and fullness stayed the same, provided my protein and fat intake is very high. I also leaned out and look and feel much better. Carbs, in my opinion, are purely a variable nutrient

[Mr. Hyde]

I feel people over hype fats. They are essential but that doesn't mean you need an extreme amount of them. I feel .20-.35 x BW off season is a good amount. I try to keep the same amount while dieting. When dieting the body can use body fat to produce testosterone if it needs to so im not "scared" to go lower on the fats to keep carbs in.

[Rep300]

I feel people over hype fats. They are essential but that doesn't mean you need an extreme amount of them. I feel .20-.35 x BW off season is a good amount. I try to keep the same amount while dieting. When dieting the body can use body fat to produce testosterone if it needs to so im not "scared" to go lower on the fats to keep carbs in.

Agreed. I've dieted with lower carbs and more fats, and felt I got really ripped but my legs shrank. Then this year I went back to using a low-low fat diet, with carbs as the fuel source that I manipulated and was far more successful in keeping my legs full and coming in at my best.

Fats are over-hyped for sure. Take some high quality fish oil in, and use some steak here and there, and you should be fine when dieting. I'd rather eat carbs anyway.

Ron

[John Romano]

It depends on what kind of "bulk" you want. If you want lean muscle, then it's fat and protein. If you want water and fat then pile in the carbs. Just remember - there are essential fats and essential proteins. there is NO such thing as an essential carbohydrate.

[Andre Gregoire]

John with your approach how much of a caloric surplus are we talking about here?

How much weight gain are you aiming for per month?

[TooPowerful4u]

It depends on what kind of "bulk" you want. If you want lean muscle, then it's fat and protein. If you want water and fat then pile in the carbs. Just remember - there are essential fats and essential proteins. there is NO such thing as an essential carbohydrate.

Yes, but to what extent? At what point is the amount of fat taken in enough and the surplus go to bodyfat? Anything over what we need will cause an increase in bodyfat no?

And while carbs are not essential, they do a number of things.
- load up glycogen stores --->healthier, fuller, more hydrated muscle cells capable of stronger contractions than if depleted.
- increased glycogen stores---->increased ATP for muscular contraction (any time you cross anaerobic thresshold carbohydrates are needed, and lifting weights is anaerobic)
- insulin response. insulin is one of the most powerful hormones in the human body as far as muscular growth and a post workout spike as well as at other times throughout the day can and will substantially increase protein synthesis as well as do both of the things listed above (but again, can cause fat gain if you over do it)

[MikeS]

Yes, but to what extent? At what point is the amount of fat taken in enough and the surplus go to bodyfat? Anything over what we need will cause an increase in bodyfat no?

And while carbs are not essential, they do a number of things.
- load up glycogen stores --->healthier, fuller, more hydrated muscle cells capable of stronger contractions than if depleted.
- increased glycogen stores---->increased ATP for muscular contraction (any time you cross anaerobic thresshold carbohydrates are needed, and lifting weights is anaerobic)
- insulin response. insulin is one of the most powerful hormones in the human body as far as muscular growth and a post workout spike as well as at other times throughout the day can and will substantially increase protein synthesis as well as do both of the things listed above (but again, can cause fat gain if you over do it)

Totally agree. Whilst CHO are not essential to survival in terms of sporting performance and arguement can be made for them being 'essential'.

I think you have to factor in how the individual reacts. Some peoples physiology is primed to store fat whilst others dont seem to do with lots of carbs.

The best overall approach for muscle building I reckon is keep protein up, carbs reasonable and fats moderate. So long as your eating mono & polyunsaturated fats you wont pile on the lard. Guys get overly fat because of the donuts, cookes, cakes and generally bus loads of saturated fat. IMO.

I did see some interesting studies about a lack of carbs negatively affecting cognitive performance and memory. Another study also showed carbs release serotonin which helps keep you feeling gooooooooood