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  1. #46
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    I think carbs are very important but they can make you fat if consumed in large quantities. Moderation is the key. From my personal experience i would say that ketogenic diet works very well and even in the off season i keep carbs moderate.

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    .nm

  3. #48
    WWE WRESTLING SCHMOE Youngguns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Romano View Post
    It depends on what kind of "bulk" you want. If you want lean muscle, then it's fat and protein. If you want water and fat then pile in the carbs. Just remember - there are essential fats and essential proteins. there is NO such thing as an essential carbohydrate.
    Quite the blanket statement from a master guru...

    0.5g per lbs of LBM for fat (max)
    1.5g per lbs of LBM for Protein
    1-2g per lbs of LBM for carbs

    That's my take on it.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeS View Post
    Totally agree. Whilst CHO are not essential to survival in terms of sporting performance and arguement can be made for them being 'essential'.

    I think you have to factor in how the individual reacts. Some peoples physiology is primed to store fat whilst others dont seem to do with lots of carbs.

    The best overall approach for muscle building I reckon is keep protein up, carbs reasonable and fats moderate. So long as your eating mono & polyunsaturated fats you wont pile on the lard. Guys get overly fat because of the donuts, cookes, cakes and generally bus loads of saturated fat. IMO.

    I did see some interesting studies about a lack of carbs negatively affecting cognitive performance and memory. Another study also showed carbs release serotonin which helps keep you feeling gooooooooood
    '

    Totally agree, specifically in bold. Even Dave advocates carb usage in the off-season because it helps to ensure that the fat is used for muscle repair rather than it being 'wasted' as the sole energy source.

    Also, TooPowerful has legitimate points.

    Human physiology is not black and white as there are too many genetic variations per individual for it to be.

    Great thread

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Romano View Post
    It depends on what kind of "bulk" you want. If you want lean muscle, then it's fat and protein. If you want water and fat then pile in the carbs. Just remember - there are essential fats and essential proteins. there is NO such thing as an essential carbohydrate.
    Every single person is different. My cousin is ripped all the time and he eats what ever he wants. I have to weigh all my food all the time and bearly get away with 1 cheat meal a week. Fats are essential but that doesnt mean you need to eat them at such high levels. Its about what optimal. If im eating 55g of fats and 150-200g of carbs a day while dieting and i countine to loose fat and keep/gain strenght obviously im getting enough essential macros in so why cut carbs out completely just to up fats?? It makes no sense, if you can make great progress with carbs in why take them out?

    People are way to black and white with the dieting non sense. Theres a very big grey area people seem to forget about.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Hyde View Post
    People are way to black and white with the dieting non sense. Theres a very big grey area people seem to forget about.
    Agreed.


    I love when the word essential is thrown around. Lifting weights, having a lot of muscle and very low bodyfat is not essential.

    When bulking both are important carbs and fats. Don't fall for the blanket "carbs makes you fat" statements.

  7. #52
    Boss 2 John Romano's Avatar
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    I increase calories - both fat and protein - until body comp, training intensity,and energy levels tell me to make adjustments. Your body will make all the glycogen it needs from the glucose it makes from protein if you are taking in enough calories. I've never had anyone go flat off season.

    I'm not going to give you exact ratios because everyone is different. And, I'm not giving away all my secrets for free. So, yeah, that was a blanket statement... Just like Dave's ;-))
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  8. #53
    RX MEMBER Andre Gregoire's Avatar
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    Thanks for the reply John. I can extrapolate that you are only having them eat slightly above maintenance which makes sense.

    When I tried hyper-caloric keto diets on myself and others with a daily surplus of 500cals per day it only led to quicker fat gains then a traditional 40/40/20 diet with the same amt of calories.

    I am guessing the magic happens around maintenance calories and the weight probably moves up only very slowly.

  9. #54
    MUSCLEHEAD TooPowerful4u's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Romano View Post
    I increase calories - both fat and protein - until body comp, training intensity,and energy levels tell me to make adjustments. Your body will make all the glycogen it needs from the glucose it makes from protein if you are taking in enough calories. I've never had anyone go flat off season.

    I'm not going to give you exact ratios because everyone is different. And, I'm not giving away all my secrets for free. So, yeah, that was a blanket statement... Just like Dave's ;-))
    Do you truly believe your body can create enough glucose through gluconeogenesis to keep muscles full? You realize the average person can store upwards of 4-450g of carbs intramuscular and a bodybuilder would almost double that (seeing as we carry double the muscle mass substantially increased sarcoplasmic capacity due to the way we train)?

    You would have to be eating in excess of hundreds of grams of protein per day for this to happen.....

    You don't mean full, you just mean not COMPLETELY flat right?

  10. #55
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    Most important thing is balance... know how to balance training, dieting and cardio with all their variables to make it agree with your body... there is more than one way to do it if you know how to balance things out.

  11. #56
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    If someone is slightly spilled over in the off season causing them to look a bit soft and smooth, does that mean they are eating too many carbs? Or should you be a bit spilled during an off season anyway?

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by OoFaP View Post
    If someone is slightly spilled over in the off season causing them to look a bit soft and smooth, does that mean they are eating too many carbs? Or should you be a bit spilled during an off season anyway?
    U spill over for a show bro. Not offseason lol.....u SHOULD be taking in a little more than your body can handle if you are trying to bulk. Nobody bulks on negative calories...

  13. #58
    Boss 2 John Romano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TooPowerful4u View Post
    Do you truly believe your body can create enough glucose through gluconeogenesis to keep muscles full? You realize the average person can store upwards of 4-450g of carbs intramuscular and a bodybuilder would almost double that (seeing as we carry double the muscle mass substantially increased sarcoplasmic capacity due to the way we train)?

    You would have to be eating in excess of hundreds of grams of protein per day for this to happen.....

    You don't mean full, you just mean not COMPLETELY flat right?
    It depends on the individual. I've had people stay nice and full and lean on nothing but protein and fat all year. Others need a few carbs. It depends on several factors. But, there isn't really a benefit to being full off season. The important thing off season is to increase strength which would usually mean you are increasing muscle mass/density. The % difference between flat and full is really not as high as you think. I've never ben a believer in the idea that you have to get really fat off season to grow. If you get up to 250 off season you should be competing between 225 - 230. And at that weight - roughly - (depending on the person) you can be plenty full with very little or no carbs.

    But, the question addressed here is carbs vs fat off season. I still maintain fats are more important than carbs.
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    Boss 2 John Romano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andre Gregoire View Post
    Thanks for the reply John. I can extrapolate that you are only having them eat slightly above maintenance which makes sense.

    When I tried hyper-caloric keto diets on myself and others with a daily surplus of 500cals per day it only led to quicker fat gains then a traditional 40/40/20 diet with the same amt of calories.

    I am guessing the magic happens around maintenance calories and the weight probably moves up only very slowly.
    exactly. But, as I keep saying, there are many factors that cause variables. That's why the diet is free and the coaching cost money. With good information your process - up to your genetic limit - should be slow and concise, relative to a myriad of personally unique factors. Having said that, You should never have to lose more than 20 - 25 pounds to get on stage.
    "...The only thing i love more than athletes getting paid is the fact that it's not us who's paying them..."
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  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by TooPowerful4u View Post
    U spill over for a show bro. Not offseason lol.....u SHOULD be taking in a little more than your body can handle if you are trying to bulk. Nobody bulks on negative calories...
    The term spill over is used during contest prep but the idea of spilling over still exists during an off season. If your glycogen stores are already filled and then you take in more carbs you will spill whether you are off season or pre contest. The thing I'm wondering is if there is any benefit in taking in more carbs than the amount required to fill glycogen stores during an off season.

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