Q&A with Nathan Payton

**Ryan Bracewell** · 11-05-2010, 12:48 PM

Q : To start out, give us a little background to how you go into writing nutrition plans?

Like everyone, I started with an interest in weight training, but I didnt' really get into it until a bit later in life, around my mid 20's, I'm 38 now. I'd like to stop right here and point out I am as genetically ungifted as anyone you may ever meet..lol. As a freshman in high school I was 5'1 and 105 pounds as a wrestler. By the time I graduated I was a massive 5-9 and 130, haha...! As I progressed, I began buying the various magazines to improve my knowledge and further my development. Muscle Media 2000 was great back in the day......

I quickly found myself not really paying attention to any part of the magazines other than what the food and diet sections involved. Having numerous food allergies, and a brother with diabetes, improving health through nutrition became my focus. Long story short, I helped a few Missouri Tiger football players in their off season around 10-12 years ago, and some of the St. Louis Rams would come into the restaurant I managed at the time after practice. We'd pick up a conversation and one thing lead to another. Those were the freebie days....gotta start somewhere!

Eventually my life path took me to a high level job as a consultant with what was at the time the 2nd largest weight loss company in the world. On flights to the corporate office, when everyone else made runs to Starbucks with our down time, I was sitting in with the dietitians on staff and picking their brains too. I'd be on the plane or in the hotel reading and studying books like Championship Bodybuilding by Chris Aceto, or Dr. Bernstein's Diabetes Solution, Clinical Nutrition and Dietetics text books, articles by Dave Palumbo, Paul Borreson, Dan Duchaine, Trevor Smith, ...I'm an old school guy...lol.

During this time, I sat with people struggling to lose weight across the country, and internationally, thousands of people...and I spotted a common theme in why traditional concepts were falling short of what they had the potential to be.

Q: Before you became the go to guy for strength athletes, what type of clients made up majority of your business...bodybuilders, soccer moms, etc?

I would say even as I built my business when it was still part time through just referrals I had football and baseball players, bodybuilders, musicians, mma guys, video girls, models, celebrity wives, doctors, ceo's....and yes Ryan, the answer you're really looking for....Porn girls.

Q: What do you feel is the main difference between the diets for a high level bodybuilder and a high level strongman or powerlifter?

Good question. Everyone is different, and with each sport you have vastly different goals, and it really comes down to a different approach to the 'peaking' goal.
For me, with bodybuilding the goal is physique perfection for that individual. Functionality of that perfect physique on the day of the show isn't really something I'm focusing on. With the strength guys, they need to 'peak' being the most functional they have ever been with their physique.

Q: What makes you stand out as one of the better nutritionists in the strength community?

In the strength world what I have built my entire reputation on is getting guys stronger through nutrition....specifically they get stronger WHILE dieting down. At a minimum a client's goal may be to maintain the strength of 340 at 280, but PR's are set at 280 that they couldn't hit at 340.

I guess you could also say the other thing that built my reputation was as a last minute emergency guy....need to drop 30 pounds in 30 days for a weight class change and PR's the day of the contest? Well, that became me. Those are fun. Last year Ortmayer called me on Halloween 3 weeks prior to a last minute invite to the European Championships. We got to work, he went over and won the whole thing. Business as usual....lol

Q: Give us a little secret, what is something that you recommend for some of your clients that most would never guess, or something other nutritionists tend not to use?

I hate complex carbs for achieving my goals with my clients, which is somewhat ironic I guess you could say since my entire system I devise is built around insulin stabilization. Makes no difference to me if bulking or dieting, complex carbs are either barely or non-existent with my guys. I'm big on fruit too...so there you go...two huge 'no no's in the world of dieting. I guess you could say I'm not a high carb guy, I'm not necessarily a low carb guy either....I'm a right carb guy.

**robert da strongman** · 11-05-2010, 12:51 PM

on the carbs....
Nathan what is your take on backloading carbs?

**SallyAnne** · 11-05-2010, 12:51 PM

...and the burning question that EVERYONE wants to know...

Boxers, or Briefs?

**PowerCoach** · 11-05-2010, 02:53 PM

Robert...I'm not really into any type of generalized carb loading per say with the strength guys.

SallyAnne....Underoos or the occasional Loincloth. Depends if I'm going dressy or casual.

**SallyAnne** · 11-05-2010, 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by PowerCoach

Robert...I'm not really into any type of generalized carb loading per say with the strength guys.

SallyAnne....Underoos or the occasional Loincloth. Depends if I'm going dressy or casual.

Useless without pictures.

**wolverine565** · 11-05-2010, 09:18 PM

is there a certain ratio of carbs, protien, and fats you use with strongman? You mentioned something like that during the travis interview.

**PowerCoach** · 11-05-2010, 09:45 PM

Wolverine...it varies from guy to guy. When some of the Pro's get together at the contests and things, if they discuss their diets with one another they quickly learn none of them have a diet that really resembles the other, BEYOND the similar foods that are used in the diets.
If they 'swapped' diets...they would be disapointed in the results.

I have a core "formula" that I use to create the diet, however it then shifts based on a number of variables.
How they respond to a "test diet" lets me know where I need to ultimately take them.
I can also tell you with Strongman and Powerlifting, calories are something I care very little about, wether dieting or bulking.

The varying physical demands, natural, enhanced, etc..all create a unique setting that if I just assigned a guy 6000 calories because he weighs 300 pounds, I'd miss the mark and the strength and physique changes that I'm known for wouldn't occur. So, in that regard you are already looking at things as I do, where I'm honestly only concerned with my "formula" and the clients Pro, Carb, and Fat grams per pound of lean bodyweight when measured against their cheat meals set into that 7 day week.

**AndyBaker** · 11-09-2010, 10:04 PM

Nathan,

I heard you helped some power lifter drop from the 242's to the 198's and set all new PR's. I don't believe that. Sounds like a bunch of B.S. Can't be done.

Just kidding dude, glad to see they gave you your own forum. I'll look in on ya from time to time.

Andy

**PowerCoach** · 11-10-2010, 10:27 AM

lol!
Great to have you hear Andy. Beyond your records, you have a bunch of experience to offer as well around here especially with your Oly certification, so jump in!

You know the drill, you need anything let me know!

**SallyAnne** · 11-10-2010, 04:29 PM

What's your approach to cardio when leaning strength athletes down (while increasing strength)? ...or do you just let the diet and heavy lifting take the fat off?

**Diabetic Muscle** · 11-10-2010, 05:46 PM

Nathan I just read through your little Q&A with Ryan. I'm really curious about your methods with diabetics. I have gone back and forth with several diets but gaining weight is surprisingly difficult, well LBM I should say. I can pork up with the best of them haha.

**PowerCoach** · 11-10-2010, 10:07 PM

SallyAnne....I'm actually rather anti-cardio to preserve as much muscle as possible and keep the cortisol levels down. (Even if enhanced athletes) Most clients I will not do cardio beyond whats recommended for cardiovascular health benefits...not the grueling variety for fat loss. (Don't get me wrong, it works...just doesn't match up with my diets.)
Now, by anti-cardio, I'm talking more in the traditional sense of tread mills, elipticals, bikes, etc...With the strength guys the event training itself is a form of cardio, or things like sled pulls are amazing. They deeply work the quads and hamstrings depending on direction of the pull, so you are getting muscle stimulation with intense cardio as a 'side'.

Diabetic Muscle.....absolutely, I work with and have worked with several diabetics...one's a musician having never worked out previously in his lifte who went from 340 to 202 and lean in around 8 months, for a photo shoot. As you know, Insulin is a tricky beast for diabetics and those using for athletic enhancement.
Lantus, Levemir, Humalog, R, N, all have their own attributes, and that needs to be accounted for, so the timing of the food matches the strengths of each type of insulin and manipulating the sensitivity to work to your advantage.
In my opinion, often overlooked in the nutritional setting is the relatively easy conversion of excess protein to carbs, and thus not addressing that in the layout of the plan. For the enhanced athlete, there's a whole other set of reactions that occur regarding insulin sensitivity, as some increase, and some decrease, so that also has to be accounted for.

**SallyAnne** · 11-10-2010, 10:38 PM

I agree that I've often gotten a better cardio workout on leg day than I have when I intentionally do cardio on the treadmill, etc.

**wolverine565** · 11-11-2010, 01:29 PM

is there going to be a power hour tonight?

**Ryan Bracewell** · 11-11-2010, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by wolverine565

is there going to be a power hour tonight?

There should be. I was told there was something going on with Jeff's computer so it may not get posted for a day if he does not have it fixed

**wolverine565** · 11-11-2010, 09:51 PM

How much fats do you put into the diet to compensate for no carbs? is there a rule of thumb you us? What are your prefered fat choices?

**PowerCoach** · 11-11-2010, 10:32 PM

Wolverine.....Fats vary client to client...but as a rule I keep fats very low in the diet as I'm training their body to use bodyfat for fuel as part of the formula I use to get my guys stronger while they lean down.
That being said, once a client's bodyfat is low enough I then begin a different phase of their diets and build some healthy fats at specific times into the diet.

Prefered fats are from Olive Oil, Almonds, Peanut Butter, Salmon, Buffalo.

Also, keep in mind my clients go through 'phases' with their diets...so things are changing constantly.

**wolverine565** · 11-11-2010, 10:52 PM

I dropped weight like rock on dave's diet. Towards the 8 week mark, fat dropped off faster the more I worked. At the end, I was weak as hell, but he cut all fats at that point.

**robert da strongman** · 11-12-2010, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by PowerCoach

Wolverine.....Fats vary client to client...but as a rule I keep fats very low in the diet as I'm training their body to use bodyfat for fuel as part of the formula I use to get my guys stronger while they lean down.
That being said, once a client's bodyfat is low enough I then begin a different phase of their diets and build some healthy fats at specific times into the diet.

Prefered fats are from Olive Oil, Almonds, Peanut Butter, Salmon, Buffalo.

Also, keep in mind my clients go through 'phases' with their diets...so things are changing constantly.

i see you have salmon but what about fish oil caps?

**PowerCoach** · 11-12-2010, 11:13 AM

Robert....with my guys its almost all about whole foods, I need all the enzyme reactions to occur in the food breakdown process, I lose that with pills..............Those enzymatic reactions have an important impact on my strength equation.

The supplements I put in are unique to the individual based on timeframes/schedules, etc...Not a fan of fish oil supps FOR THE DIET SYSTEM, however needless to say fish oil supps can provide a host of additional health benefits.

**tjoe** · 11-12-2010, 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by wolverine565

I dropped weight like rock on dave's diet. Towards the 8 week mark, fat dropped off faster the more I worked. At the end, I was weak as hell, but he cut all fats at that point.

Important to put this one in context. What was the diet for? A BBing show, to get as lean as possible, etc.
That protocol would be vastly different than a strength athlete looking to drop weight.

GameofInches · 11-12-2010, 06:14 PM

Hey,

In regards to your blood sugar article. Do you feel a Keto diet would "reset" one's response to carbs so when they go back to including carbs in their diet they will respond better to it? Thanks!

**PowerCoach** · 11-12-2010, 08:59 PM

Game of Inches....I have variations of the diets I design for strength guys, one being a keto-modified type of diet for my purposes.

Actually one of my pro's Ryan Bracewell is on that style now as one of the phases he has entered with his diet system, he'll pull out of this style and into his next phase over the course of the next couple months.
Ryan's on a type of keto/paleo hybrid, and yes he entered this phase to 'sharpen things up' if you will. What the guys go through can take it's toll on their system, and this phase is designed to let his system reset itself and basically detox from a year of training and multiple contests.

The key is how you come OUT of the this phase, as remember my goal is never weight loss for the sake of weight loss or a bodybuilding contest.....I have to get my guys stronger through each and every diet phase they go through. Progress in that area can never stall out.

**wolverine565** · 11-13-2010, 01:25 AM

tjoe,
I was getting lean as possible. I like dave's diet. I'm just trying to workout how much fat to put in so I can pull carbs. I am trying to strengthen up for a strongman contest next may.

**wolverine565** · 11-14-2010, 10:14 AM

what do you think about susan kleiner's "power eating" book?

**PowerCoach** · 11-16-2010, 11:33 AM

Wolverine.....in my opinion Dr. Kleiner's book is pretty basic, not much different than the type of generic advice found in the pages of Flex or Muscle and Fitness, and really is not much different than the approach used in the late 70's through the 80's for Bodybuilders to diet. Not that there's anything wrong with that, rather I'm a big ANTI-cookie cutter diet approach, meaning "one size absolutely does not fit all'.

When ever anyone finds themselves tempted by the latest book or supplement as the sole means to their goals....keep in mind that ultimately you're not going to get the body you want from a book or a pill.
If it were that easy, everyone would have the perfect body and be at the top of their athletic game, and Myself, Dave, Chris, Hany, Chad, Joe, Alex, Shelby, Art, Don, George,etc, would be in another line of work.

**wolverine565** · 11-23-2010, 11:35 PM

It doesn't look like they are going to let my son compete in the republic of texas strongman. They can't get the ok from the insurance, seeing that he is 11yrs old and the cut off is 13yrs old. Maybe they will change there mind at the 11th hour. We are going to go anyway, meet people, and watch the contest. He can at least get the feel for what the contests will be like and not be nervous.

**robert da strongman** · 12-28-2010, 12:00 AM

oh Nathan.....

**PowerCoach** · 12-28-2010, 09:35 AM

Robert....my hero.

Larissa Reis is just what this thread needs!

**wolverine565** · 12-28-2010, 11:40 AM

Whats your plan to help travis moving forward? Add more body weight? Maintain weight and work on endurance/strength? Carry a little more bodyfat?

GV · 01-07-2011, 01:06 PM

Have or do you work with female (strongman) athletes? If so, have you ever worked with one that is also a (ovo-lacto)-vegetarian?
I just wonder how their diet may differ (in terms of fat to carb ratio) to what a meat eater's diet would be or would there not be much difference if their wanting to drop the fluff but keep their strength?

**Matt Reynolds** · 01-07-2011, 03:07 PM

Nathan,

I guess my question really revolves around what carbs you primarily use with your athletes?

I like the "idea" of a general paleo/mountain dog type nutrition, but I also know from competing at strongman that I NEED carbs to fuel my intense sessions...

HOWEVER, I also struggle with insulin insensitivity, and don't want to use shitty processed carbs, sugar, etc. So in order to control insulin I choose beans, oatmeal etc as "slow" carbs to help get me the carbs that I need (and use fruit pre-training, and waxy maize immediately post training and yams in the meal afterwards)....

HOWEVER, I struggle with gut problems BIGTIME. I have diarrhea all the time and fart non stop. The true paleo-ites say that all grains and beans are worthless (can't be eaten in their raw state) , cause inflammation through allergens, and that they are the root cause of my problems.

What are your thoughts on good carb choices for the high level competitive strongman when considering nutrition for performance?

Thanks!

**PowerCoach** · 01-07-2011, 10:12 PM

Originally Posted by GV

Have or do you work with female (strongman) athletes? If so, have you ever worked with one that is also a (ovo-lacto)-vegetarian?
I just wonder how their diet may differ (in terms of fat to carb ratio) to what a meat eater's diet would be or would there not be much difference if their wanting to drop the fluff but keep their strength?

Yes, I have worked with female strength athletes, bodybuilders, models, etc...with the Ovo-Lacto, really nothing changes.
I have various 'styles' of diets designed to be the best match for the person, with an underlying theme. I will say thought that there is no milk typically with my diets other than slight inclusion in some bulk diets) really the ratios for you don't change as an ovo-lacto-vegetarian.

**PowerCoach** · 01-07-2011, 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by Matt Reynolds

Nathan,

I guess my question really revolves around what carbs you primarily use with your athletes?

I like the "idea" of a general paleo/mountain dog type nutrition, but I also know from competing at strongman that I NEED carbs to fuel my intense sessions...

HOWEVER, I also struggle with insulin insensitivity, and don't want to use shitty processed carbs, sugar, etc. So in order to control insulin I choose beans, oatmeal etc as "slow" carbs to help get me the carbs that I need (and use fruit pre-training, and waxy maize immediately post training and yams in the meal afterwards)....

HOWEVER, I struggle with gut problems BIGTIME. I have diarrhea all the time and fart non stop. The true paleo-ites say that all grains and beans are worthless (can't be eaten in their raw state) , cause inflammation through allergens, and that they are the root cause of my problems.

What are your thoughts on good carb choices for the high level competitive strongman when considering nutrition for performance?

Thanks!

Here comes the shocker to most people....my favorite carb source is WHITE rice.
I don't like any grains or beans typically, nor include them in my diets, other than possibly oatmeal or on occasion green beans only. Remember I'm not saying they are wrong, etc....I'm saying I don't like them in the way I structure a diet.

I'm big on FAST carbs, not complex for the majority of meals...however the key is the amounts are controlled and very specific in nature with how the foods pyramid through the day. I feel complex carbs work against strength athletes.....fast carbs readily at your disposal and training your body to use bodyfat for fuel when they burn off is what I rely on.
The longer the carbohydrate, for my diets, the longer the delay on your body tapping bodyfat for fuel.

Regarding the insulin control and sensitivity, I just actually had a female client with documented hypoglycemia decide to do a photoshoot in a 3 week span....she ran white rice through her entire diet with ZERO hypo events due to gaining the ability to tap stored body fat for fuel.

Keep in mind....I'm not a big carb guy either....too much of anything is a bad thing.....

GV · 02-07-2011, 03:59 PM

Hi Nathan-

I read the "Glucometer & A1C NOW....valuable tools" article you wrote, I thought it was great btw, and I have a couple of questions concerning the article.

Of course, I went out and bought a glucometer-I think it's very cool to learn more about how I'm responding to my diet- but, am unsure what difference in pre- and post-meal values I need to concern myself with.

In the article you say there should be a "tight range". What pre- & post-meal blood sugar level values would you consider as comparably acceptable? For example: would a value of 87 mg/dL pre-meal and 91 mg/dL 1hr. post-meal be acceptable?

In that respect what would you consider to be a big jump?
For example, would a difference of 20units (pre vs. 1hr post) be significant to cause "spill over"?

Thanks in advance for taking the time to answer these questions....and for answering my last question

**PowerCoach** · 02-08-2011, 11:09 AM

GV
A pre/post variation of 87 to 91 comparitively speaking is an EXCELLENT result.

In my opinion, I like to see around a 20 point or less difference in the post meal number compared to the pre meal.
The closer it is to your pre meal number, even better.

Everyone is unique in this area, but generally the better your sensitivity... the closer your numbers will be. Bracewell has freaky good genetics in this area...he can even have a huge cheat meal and still have his 1 hour number return to his baseline.

What is NOT ideal and can show spillover is jumps of 40+. In that regard, the higher number is indicative of excess glucose...glucose we would have rather seen sucked up by the muscles and put to use instead. Keep in mind this number may still be a perfectly healthy normal blood sugar level, just not necessarily an ideal result for a competitive diet.

GV · 02-08-2011, 03:52 PM

Awesome thanks for the ranges

So I have another question:

I have Hasimoto's and am aware that BG affects (hypo)thyroid function and vice versa.
I'm thinking this might be a potential tool to help me monitor my thyroid function as well-maybe an early indicator that my thyroid is preparing to take a crap on me.....I wondered what you thought regarding this?

Are any of the athletes you work with also hypothyroid and if so have they noticed any comparison between BG level instability (dysglycemia) and supressed thyroid function?
I'm not having luck finding much literature regarding hypothyroid athletes and training, let alone about BG monitoring

Thanks again for all your help!!

**Bubba Bronko** · 02-09-2011, 07:31 PM

What ranges should we shoot be looking for though what are some guideline numbers? whats a good pre BGL or fasting BGL mine all seem to be between 90-100 pre and post.

**PowerCoach** · 02-09-2011, 09:39 PM

Originally Posted by GV

Awesome thanks for the ranges

So I have another question:

I have Hasimoto's and am aware that BG affects (hypo)thyroid function and vice versa.
I'm thinking this might be a potential tool to help me monitor my thyroid function as well-maybe an early indicator that my thyroid is preparing to take a crap on me.....I wondered what you thought regarding this?

Are any of the athletes you work with also hypothyroid and if so have they noticed any comparison between BG level instability (dysglycemia) and supressed thyroid function?
I'm not having luck finding much literature regarding hypothyroid athletes and training, let alone about BG monitoring

Thanks again for all your help!!

I have no experience specifically with your condition, however in working with thyroid preparations for various other scenarios, I have seen the following, perhaps this can be of use to you.

Hypo (Thyroid) the blood sugars seem to creep upwards from your personal baseline due to increased insulin resistance....
Hyper (Thyroid), they drop lower, with hypoglycemia a possiblity....in my experience this one seems to be an increase in reactive hypoglycemia. (Low blood sugar following meals)

In my opinion, they polar opposite one another with their affects, and could be seen as:
Thyroid Hypo=elevated blood sugar readings from your personal baseline (normal)
Thryoid Hyper=lower blood sugar readings from your personal baseline (normal)

**PowerCoach** · 02-09-2011, 09:56 PM

Originally Posted by Bubba Bronko

What ranges should we shoot be looking for though what are some guideline numbers? whats a good pre BGL or fasting BGL mine all seem to be between 90-100 pre and post.

If your pre and post meal numbers are being consistant, and are similar (as you mention with your 90-100) (pre/post)...thats an ideal response for me.

Everyone will have their own baseline (pre) number...anywhere from 75-90 is great, with post meals ideally less than 120.
The closer to your pre meal number you are with your post meal number the more ideal for my purposes, in a competition diet scenario.

Keep in mind this is a very individual thing, and the course of the diet as well as the goals can change the actual target numbers over time with me.

For strictly monitoring health oriented goals, etc...the american diabetes association has alot of useful information for anyone.
www.diabetes.org

GV · 02-10-2011, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by PowerCoach

I have no experience specifically with your condition, however in working with thyroid preparations for various other scenarios, I have seen the following, perhaps this can be of use to you.

Hypo (Thyroid) the blood sugars seem to creep upwards from your personal baseline due to increased insulin resistance....
Hyper (Thyroid), they drop lower, with hypoglycemia a possiblity....in my experience this one seems to be an increase in reactive hypoglycemia. (Low blood sugar following meals)

In my opinion, they polar opposite one another with their affects, and could be seen as:
Thyroid Hypo=elevated blood sugar readings from your personal baseline (normal)
Thryoid Hyper=lower blood sugar readings from your personal baseline (normal)

Yes, this info. is definitely helpful!

Currently, I've noticed that the only time my pre / post meal levels have a 20-30 unit jump is my post WO meal. The values with all other meals during the day only vary by 2-5units. I attributed my work-out to the bigger jump in my post WO meal......would you concur? Perhaps the gap is larger in part because of my thyroid??
Using the info. you've provided, I will definitely watch the ranges with my other meals and if they too seem to widen, I will have my thyroid levels checked to see if there is a correlation....would be pretty cool if this turns out to be a reliable early indicator of thyroid malfunction.......

**tackle78** · 02-15-2011, 10:43 AM

what do you think of carb back loading?

**PowerCoach** · 02-15-2011, 11:42 AM

There are a million ways to diet, and ultimately what a person can stick with helps dictate success. Also, each person is unique....natural/enhanced...all these things have an enourmous impact on the effects of any type of diet.
I have my own diet system that I use, but of course I constantly experiment to see if anything can be of added benefit.

That being said, carb-back loading is not something I ever use with my guys with strongman.
They way you train is ultimately the way you will compete.
Strongman competition starts in the morning.

If say Ortmayer,Bracewell, Vincent, etc.. were not used to carbs in the mornings/day time....their insulin sensitivity would actually be sluggish, and they would respond poorly to carbs for the competition,in regards to how I have them prep into the contest and DURING.....they would have actually un-conditioned themselves to handle them.

I assure you an overhead medley will not go well or safely if in a low carb environment.
(A high carb environment isn't ideal either)

Consistency is key for performance, and I'm not at all a fan of 'timing' carb intake when it comes to performance, if it means restricting elsewhere.
(Boosting...Yes. Withholding....No.)

**tackle78** · 02-15-2011, 12:54 PM

Very good points, thanks for your response. I have been depating giving it a try, but I think your points are very valid.

**PowerCoach** · 03-30-2011, 01:16 PM

It's interesting, I've had a number of emails asking if I would work with football guys, baseball, etc....I work with athletes and people from all walks of life, a couple of my guys are with the Tigers and Rangers in the baseball world, so feel free to ask questions or contact me even if you're not solely a strength athlete.