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  1. #1
    STRONGMAN Bryan Hildebrand's Avatar
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    Default Rx Muscle Master's Source for Pharmacological Intervention Information

    As many of you long time Masters folks know, there was a long running thread in this section unique to you. the thread however was full of what I and others here in the know, consider misinformation. often times some of this information was dangerous and reckless. we as a group can't afford that lifestyle in terms of longevity and health concerns.

    The previous AAS posts are still available, they just arent viewable to anyone but moderators and forum leaders. If there is something specific you want from the thread, please Pm me and I can see about finding it for you.

    With that said, joe, scott and i are going to do our best to bring you quality scientific information about how to safely supplement your training and lifestyle. "Better Living Through Pharmacology" has always been a favorite saying of mine and thats what we intend to bring you here.

    I want to start with some back to basics information. this info was borrowed from the section in Chemical. SisterSteele, though controversial, is a bright commited disciplinarian when it comes to AAS knowledge. HeavyIron in my opinion is the greatest resource on the net for scientific information inregard to objective information. what I like most about these two is they are practiced in their AAS disciplines. not some internet jockies doing google scholar searches, but quality muscled individuals.

    Please leave us any feedback or any ideas of topics you want covered ehre. If you are uncomfortable posting in public about it, please PM one of us with your questions and we will post them anonymously.
    Last edited by Bryan Hildebrand; 01-11-2011 at 11:59 AM.

  2. #2
    STRONGMAN Bryan Hildebrand's Avatar
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    Originally posted by SisterSteele: Hormones 101.

    Bodybuilding is all about changing your hormones so you build muscles and lose fat more efficiently. Bodybuilders should have a basic understanding of the endocrine system (hormonal system) of the human body.
    Hormones
    There are two categories of hormones, catabolic and anabolic. Anabolic means building up the body, Catabolic means breaking down the body. In bodybuilding language, anabolic means building up muscle, catabolic means losing muscle.

    Hypothalamus - Releases TRH, GnRH. Hypothalamus is a part of the brain involved in controlling the release of hormones from the pituitary gland, it also controls body temperature, hunger, and thirst.

    Pituitary gland - Growth hormone, ACTH, TSH, FSH, LH, prolactin, ADH, oxytocin. The pituitary gland, which is located in the center of the skull, just behind the bridge of the nose, is about the size of a pea. It is an important link between the nervous system and the endocrine system and releases many hormones which affect growth, sexual development, metabolism and the system of reproduction. The "hypothalamus" is a tiny cluster of brain cells just above the pituitary gland, which transmits messages from the body to the brain. The pituitary gland has two distinct parts, the anterior and the posterior lobes, each of which releases different hormones which affect bone growth and regulate activity in other glands. This gland was once believed to be the main controlling gland of the body, but we now know that, important as it is, it is subservient to a master gland called the hypothalamus, which is the needed link between the pituitary gland and the brain. This "master gland" is really a way station between the body and the brain and sorts out messages going to and from the brain. It responds to the body through the pituitary gland, which is suspended just below it. It sometimes replies by nerve impulses and sometimes with needed hormones. The pituitary gland then makes hormones of its own in answer to the body's needs. These are then circulated in the blood to a variety of the body's tissues, including other endocrines, such as the adrenal gland. The adrenal gland receives the hormones produced by the pituitary and produces more of its own in response to growth and development requirements as well as the "fight or flight" responses.


    Thyroid glands - Thyroxines, and calcitonin. The thyroid gland is shaped like a butterfly and usually weighs less than one ounce. The thyroid cartilage covers the larynx and produces the prominence on the neck known as the "Adam's Apple". The thyroid gland controls the rate at which the body produces energy from nutrients. If the body does not get enough iodine, the thyroid gland cannot produce a proper amount of hormones for this conversion process. The result can be a goiter, an enlargement of the thyroid gland. In some parts of the world, iodine is so scarce that most of the population have goiters. The parathyroid glands are four small oval bodies located on either side of and on the dorsal aspect of the thyroid gland. These glands control the level of calcium in the blood. The thyroid gland secretes hormones which regulate energy (shown below), and emotional balance may rely upon its normal functioning. When the rate of production is excessive, the results can be weight loss, nervousness, or even emotional disturbances. If the rate of production is excessively low, a slowing of bodily functions may result. The parathyroid glands, located behind the thyroid, control the blood-calcium level. Calcium is important, not only for bones and teeth, but also for nerve functioning, muscle contractions, blood clotting and glandular secretion. If we don't have enough calcium for these functions, the body will take it from the bones, causing them to easily fracture. It may also cause twitching, spasms, convulsions and even death.


    The thyroid hormones:

    TSH (thyroid stimulating hormone) This is technically a Pituitary gland hormone.
    T4 (2 x diiodotyrosine)
    T3 (triiodothyronine)
    T2 (diiodothyronine)
    T1

    It all starts with TSH (thyroid stimulating hormone) that is secreted from the Pituitary gland, this hormone then travels through the blood stream and when it hits the thyroid gland, it tells the thyroid gland to produce T4. T4 on its own can't do much, its kind of like the hormone that stays in the freezer until your thyroid needs some of it, when it does, it takes some T4 "heats it up" and turns it into T3. T3 is the most powerful thyroid hormone that the body uses for metabolic purposes. It generally has a 5:3 fat to muscle loss ratio when losing weight. So not only will it eat away at your fat, it will cannibalize your muscle too. Also, from T3 your thyroid can take that and turn it into T2 which is less powerful but still important to understand cause it has a 5:1 fat to muscle loss ratio. This means T2 is better for fat loss since it preserves muscle better than T3. And again from T2, it can take some of that and make T1 which is less powerful of all of them and is used for some biological processes.

    It's also very important to understand that when you take in exogenesis thyroid hormones (hormone drugs) you will suppress your natural production of TSH (this is very bad), when you stop taking outside thyroid drugs, it will take a while for your TSH to rise naturally again. Different exogenesis outside thyroid hormones suppress TSH more or less depending how high up on the thyroid hormone list of the thyroid hormone your taking. So if your literally taking exogenesis TSH, say goodbye to your natural production of TSH severely. But if your taking T2 it will not suppress TSH hardly little at all, but it still will though, just not as much. Taking T3 will suppress it more than T2 etc.. taking in T4 will suppress it more than T3. Sometimes doctors will prescribe T4 hormones to obese people, which will shut down their natural production of TSH, the best method to choose is go natural but diet and exercise!!! It's important to realize that hormones are the most powerful natural forces in your body, intense exercise (especially cardio), will GREATLY enhance the fat burning effects of an obese person by increasing the production of TSH, which will make T4, T3 etc...

    This is the secret hormone that will shred all the fat off of your body, and it's VERY important to know how to increase the amount of hormones that this gland produces, this website will teach you all of this. But to quickly tell you how to produce tons of thyroid hormones, eat a lot of food frequently all through out the day, and do proper exercise, I'll go into more detail later.

    Although thyroid hormones are necessary for promoting normal developmental growth, don't confuse this with the muscle growth that occurs with resistance exercise. In addition, thyroid hormones are involved in dozens of biological processes including:
    • Increased oxygen consumption (metabolic rate)
    • Increased thermogenesis (heat production)
    • Increased number of beta adrenergic receptors in the heart, skeletal muscle, adipose tissues, and lymphocytes (these receptors bind fat mobilizing hormones)
    • Increased sensitivity to catecholamines (fat mobilizing, fight or flight hormones)
    • Increased number of red blood cells and increased oxygen delivery
    • Increased lypolysis (fat burning)
    • Increased liver glycogen breakdown
    • Increased liver glucose production
    • Increased intestinal glucose absorption
    • Increased protein turnover
    • Decreased cholesterol levels
    From looking over this list, it appears that thyroid hormones do some pretty exciting things in the body, all of which can be extremely beneficial to bodybuilders. But before I move on, I want to talk about some of the other effects of thyroid hormones that may not be so ideal for bodybuilders. You won't have to worry about any of these if you do the right things discussed in the various articles on this website.
    • Increased heart rate and heart contractility
    • Increased free radical production (due to decreased Superoxide Dismutase concentrations)
    • Increased GI motility
    • Increased bone turnover (and potentially bone loss or high levels of calcium in the blood)
    • Increased cortisol levels
    • Increased sex hormone binding globulin
    Other hormones
    Parathyroid glands - Parathroid hormone. The gland behind the thyroid gland. It is responsible for calcium regulation as well as secreting a hormone that regulates calcium and phosphorus metabolism.

    Pancreas - insulin and glucagon. A glandular organ located in the abdomen. It makes pancreatic juices, which contain enzymes that aid in digestion. The pancreas is surrounded by the stomach, intestines, and other organs. This is the gland responsible for insulin production. Insulin is a hormone secreted by the pancreas that helps regulate carbohydrate metabolism, It promotes the use of glucose and regulates the amount of sugar in the blood. Insulin drives incoming nutrients into cells for storage. Excess insulin is the primary pillar of aging, so make sure you don't over eat carbs on a daily basis. Glucagon is a hormone secreted by the pancreas; stimulates increases in blood sugar levels in the blood (thus opposing the action of insulin). It breaks down stored glycogen into glucose, raising blood sugar levels.

    Adrenal glands - produces Cortisol, aldosterone, epinephrine, norepinephrine. The adrenal glands are a pair of glands that secrete hormones directly into the bloodstream. Each gland can be divided into two distinct organs. The outer region secretes hormones which have important effects on the way in which energy is stored and food is used, on chemicals in the blood, and on characteristics such as hairiness and body shape. The smaller, inner region is part of the sympathic nervous system and is the body's first line of defense and response to physical and emotional stresses. The adrenal glands are shaped like the French Emperor Napoleon's hat and, just as Napoleon's three-cornered hat sat on his head, so each gland is perched on each of the kidneys. These glands are about one to two inches in length and weigh only a fraction of an ounce each while secreting more than three dozen hormones. They take instruction from the pituitary glands and have important effects on physical characteristics, development and growth. The adrenal gland has two parts. The cortex, or outer, yellow layer, takes its instructions from the pituitary hormone ACTH. The hormones secreted here are called "steroids" and have three main types: those which control the balance of sodium and potassium in the body; those which raise the level of sugar in the blood; and sex hormones. The inner, reddish brown layer makes two types of hormones and takes all its instructions from the nervous system, producing chemicals which react to fear and anger and are sometimes called "fight or flight" hormones.

    Testes - produces testosterone. The scrotum is a sac that hangs under the penis and holds the testes. It is divided internally into two halves by a membrane; each half containing a testis. It has an outer layer of thin, wrinkled skin over a layer of tissue which contains muscle. The testicle lies inside the scrotum and produces as many as 12 trillion sperm in a male's lifetime, about 400 million of which are ejaculated in one average intercourse. Each sperm takes about seventy-two days to mature and its maturity is overseen by a complex interaction of hormones. The scrotum has a built-in thermostat, which keeps the sperm at the correct temperature. It may be surprising that the testicles should lie in such a vulnerable place, outside the body, but it is too hot inside. The sperm production needs a temperature which is three to five degrees below body temperature. If it becomes too cool on the outside, the scrotum will contract to bring the testes closer the body for warmth. Testosterone (released a LOT more in men) builds massive muscles, and it's important to maximize this hormone when it comes to building muscle mass. This website well teach you how to do this naturally without external hormonal means.
    Testosterone tends to raise and lower as days, weeks, and months go by. It may be low one day but very high another day. As far as how to raise it naturally, you need to train very intensely.

    And how to raise test levels through diet, monounsaturated fat raises testoseterone levels, and saturated fat also kind of does too, but monounsaturated fat is the best way to raise it through diet, a good rich source of this is extra virgin olive oil.

    I've also read lately that partially hydrogenated oils (trans fatty acids) can lower test levels. Also a very low fat diet (under like 25 grams a day), can really lower test levels, so make sure your eating enough fat in your diet, and that most of it is from monounsaturated fat.

    Too many carbs can lower it. Make sure when you go to sleep for the day, that you are on a carb depleted stomach, this raises testosterone when your sleeping. Then when you wake up, eat plenty of carbs, this stops catabolism from an over night fast and raises test.

    Ovaries (female only) - produces estrogen, progesterone (and testosterone). Female sex hormones estrogen and progesterone is what gives females their sexy shape, it develops bigger breasts, wider hips, narrower waists, keeps them from getting too fat. Some people think males have an easier time losing fat and staying in shape than females, well this isn't true, estrogen and progesterone is a powerful force that keeps females in shape, they won't be able to gain as much muscle as men cause they produce less testosterone, but as far as bodyfat is concerned they can have low body fat levels but not extremely low (like men). The reason why older women tend start blimping out once they get in the upper 40s, lower 50s is because they start losing these two hormones (estrogen and progesterone).

    More information on hormones
    During exercise, depending on how much effort intensity you put into it, you will release GH during it, also keep in mind, in men especially testosterone rises as GH rises, so, generally releasing GH releases other anabolic hormones as well at the same time, also, when you get done working out, your in a catabolic state, after about 5 - 15 hours after the workout, considering that your resting and eating then, your body goes into a restorative period, which means anabolic hormones rise substantially and catabolic hormones such as cortisol are put to rest. This rise overbalances the catabolic period you had. Females rely more on GH, and will release more of it than men during and after exercising. Men rely on testosterone to build muscle and lose fat, while females rely on estrogen and progesterone to keep their body's in shape, it keeps them from getting too fat, and it keeps them looking sexy for the opposite sex. When females go through menopause they lose their sex hormones (estrogen and progesterone), and it is then harder to stay or get in shape, this usually occurs around age 45 - 50. Females then rely mainly on GH to keep them in shape for the rest of their lives.

    When your growing up, you need plenty of GH to go through puberty and for overall growth, as you get older, you don't need as much of it any more, only when your body needs it, such as intense physical activates and when your sleeping. What's interesting is your glands are physically capable of releasing the same amount of hormones at age 130 than at age 16. Your body simply wont do it cause it does not have a good enough reason to.

    Just thinking about things changes hormone levels, depending on what your thinking about.

    The phrase: "use it or lose it" applies to all parts of your endocrine system, for example, you broke your arm, and its in a cast, when you take it off 3 months later, your bicep muscles are really small, simply cause you haven't used them. now here's the scary part, you don't use yourself, you'll lose it! People who are depressed and/or feel they have no purpose in life, will release catabolic hormones which speeds the aging process up, so you die quicker, your body is doing you a favor. But when you do use yourself, no matter what age you are, your body will produce anabolic hormones and put catabolic hormones to rest which keeps you alive as best as possible, and to help you live your life easier. All muscle growth (no matter what age you are) depends on growth hormone. All your bones (even each individual teeth (except for baby teeth), skin, muscles, and organs (including your adipose tissue, which is all your fat on your body) are hooked up to your endocrine system, any change in any of them depends on your endocrine system (hormonal system) to make the change.

    Another point I'm trying to make is that your body is always trying to break down everything (bones, muscles, organs, everything), the only way to build them up is to use them. Some people who lose bones later in life, or that have Osteoporosis, they all think calcium is the answer, WRONG, is that you just have to use them, and put stress on them and they will build right up (considering that you get at least some drops calcium in you). The more you show yourself that your using certain areas of your body to perform specific activities (also known as intensity in bodybuilding terms), then the more your body will react to this stress by drastically changing the shape of your body, and this is all done by hormones.

  3. #3
    STRONGMAN Bryan Hildebrand's Avatar
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    Originally posted by HeavyIron.

    HeavyIrons PCT

    Seems like the Pct question comes up a lot here so heres heavyirons PCT. So hopefully this thread helps this question from being asked 15 times a day lol..

    Post Cycle therapy


    I strongly believe that an AI should be used as long as there is an aromatizing compound being administered. In this case Testosterone and HCG aromatize therefore using an AI until these meds clear and a few weeks longer is what I am recommending. There is some evidence that adding Nolva to an AI does not increase the effectiveness of estro control therefore Nolva has no real advantage alongside an AI unless one is experiencing gyno. Additionally Nolva has been shown to reduce IGF-1 and GH levels when used alone. This is not a big deal on cycle as testosterone increases IGF-1 in a dose dependant relationship. However off cycle this is a problem. PCT is a fragile time and lower IGF-1 and GH levels is not desirable. I am recommending an AI that is specific to men that can be used on cycle and during PCT. It is my conclusion that Aromasin is the obvious choice.

    I recommend the following PCT protocol for esters like Cypionate and Enanthate;

    Day 1-16 : 2500iu HCG every other day. (You may use less HCG if your testes are normal in size AND you have been using HCG on cycle, i.e. 1,000iu HCG eod.)

    100/100/100/50 Clomid (50mg taken twice per day weeks 1-3)

    20mg/20mg/20mg/10mg Aromasin (20mg daily for 3 weeks, 10mg daily in week 4)

    3g Vit C every day split in 3 doses

    10g creatine daily

    The HCG is administered BEFORE the ester clears to increase the mass of the testes and bring back ITT levels. This will allow the testes to sustain output of testosterone sooner.

    Clomid is universally accepted as THE testosterone recovery tool. It blocks estrogen from the HPTA and stimulates the production of GNRH then initiates the production of LH, which in turn signals the testis (if not atrophied) to produce testosterone.

    Aromasin or a similar aromatase inhibitor is for testosterone recovery and it is used to keep the testosterone/estrogen balance in favor of testosterone. It is also helps to keep any additionally occurring estrogen from HCG low to none.

    Cortisol is catabolic. It is the enemy of all anabolism and must be kept in check. While it is blocked when under the influence of AAS, it is free to attach to the Anabolic Receptors (AR) once the steroids leave. Due to this blockage Cortisol tends to accumulate and increase when on. A low level is desirable however since it is important for other vital functions such as control of inflammation. Balance is the key. Vitimin C keeps the exercise induced rise of Cortisol in check.

    The use of Creatine has shown to increase ATP metabolism and cellular water storage among many other things. This is beneficial because it provides for heightened nutrient storage and a slight increase in anabolism as well as workout stamina.

    References

    Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men;

    Pharmacokinetics and Dose Finding of a Potent Aromatase Inhibitor, Aromasin (Exemestane), in Young Males

    Low-Dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Maintains Intratesticular Testosterone in Normal Men with Testosterone-Induced Gonadotropin Suppression

    Use of clomiphene citrate to reverse premature andropause secondary to steroid abuse.

    Changes in the Endocrinological Milieu After Clomiphene Citrate Treatment for Oligozoospermia: The Clinical Significance of the Estradiol/Testosterone Ratio as a Prognostic Value

    Special thanks to those men and women who have influnced my thinking over the years in regards to aas use. In particular I would like to thank Ulter from AFBOARD, Dr Pangloss, Sassy69 and Warrior.

  4. #4
    STRONGMAN Bryan Hildebrand's Avatar
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    more coming. so many new things for me to do lately has kept me busy... but more content coming. thanks for the feedback!

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    BARBARIAN BROTHER joedemarco's Avatar
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    Thanks for getting on this so quickly! I think this will be great info for the masters section!

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    FREAK s2h's Avatar
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    please feel free to post any pharm related questions...if your not comfortable discussing them in a open forum...pm myself,attlia or joe and we will be more than happy to help you out...
    IronMagLabs 15% Off Coupon Code = s2h15

    IronMagLabs Bodybuilding Nutrition

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    STRONGMAN Bryan Hildebrand's Avatar
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    Testosterone, The King Hormone.

    By Leigh Penman

    Testosterone Cypionate is a testosterone which has undergone 17 beta-estrification. Due to the length of its ester (8 carbons) it is stored mostly in adipose (fat) tissue upon intra-muscular injection from where it is released at a slow and steady rate. It peaks at 24-48 hours and then exhibits a slow and steady release over the course of 12 days. Although the compound stays in your system for up to three weeks, most athletes choose to inject it on a weekly basis.

    Testosterone itself is a highly anabolic and androgenic hormone (rating 100 on each index). Its primary mode of action is to increase nitrogen retention in the muscle. It is also known to increase levels of growth factor IGF-1 in both muscle tissue and in the liver.

    In addition to this, testosterone increases the activity of ’satellite cells’. These are cells which surround the muscle tissue and play an active role in repairing damaged muscle tissue and contribute to the growth of new muscle.

    Other factors linked with testosterone administration include a reduction in catabolic glucocorticoid hormones and an increase in red blood cell production (which contributes to increased stamina and endurance as well as a better ‘muscle pump’ when working out. Recent research also points to testosterone being a possible protective agent in the war against heart disease as well as a positive contributor to the fat loss process.

    SIDE EFFECTS

    The downside of a long acting ester like Cypionate is that it can lead to more water retention (although this can be somewhat alleviated by ensuring adequate water consumption and keeping a check on your intake of carbohydrates). Testosterone is also metabolized in the body to the female hormone estrogen by the aromatize enzyme. This can result in gynecomastia (the growth of breast tissue in men) some fat gain, testicular shrinkage and an increase in blood pressure. Hair loss and possible swelling of the prostate are also potential side effects.

    STACKING TIPS

    Although using testosterone by itself is perfectly acceptable, it is often stacked with substances such as Deca Durabolin, Equipoise, Primobolan or oral compounds with a high anabolic index (e.g. Winstrol, Anavar). This is a good idea in terms of both muscle growth and collagen synthesis. Testosterone increases protein synthesis by about 50-60% but it also reduces collagen synthesis by 50%. Since collagen is the substance joints and ligaments are composed of you can see how important it is to the recipe for muscle growth and protection form injury.

    FOR YOUR PROTECTION

    Anti-estrogens are essential when undertaking a cycle of testosterone. After a cycle is completed testosterone levels are usually suppressed and levels of estradiol are usually high due to aromatization. The use of HCG, Nolvadex/Clomid is usually the prescribed after cycle therapy. HCG injections should be started during the final week of the cycle and continued for 3-4 weeks (usually 1500-3000 i.u. every 5-6 days). HCG acts as an alternative to LH (Luteinizing Hormone) and kick starts normal testosterone production. Then about two weeks after the final shot of testosterone Nolvadex/Clomid should be started. The normal dose being up to 40mg Nolvadex or 150mg Clomid every days for two weeks. This can be followed by two more weeks of either 20mg Nolvadex or 100mg Clomid following the discontinuance of HCG.

    EFFECTIVE DOSAGE

    The usually dosage for Testosterone Cypionate is anything from 400 – 1000mg per week. Higher doses have been reported but, as always, increased dosages go hand in hand with increased side effects.

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    STRONGMAN Bryan Hildebrand's Avatar
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    Testosterone cycle design


    Almost weekly someone posts on the Chemical Enhancement forum asking about first cycle advice. The most common questions are; “what steroid should I take?” “How long should I take it?” and “What will the effects be?” There are literally dozens of steroids available and that makes it difficult for a first time user to choose. The following information will attempt to provide enough information for a first time user to make an educated decision about anabolic androgenic steroid use.
    Testosterone is one of the most effective, safe and available steroids today, therefore I believe Testosterone is the best first cycle choice. The following text outlines the benefits and risks of Testosterone administration based on a clinical human trial of 61 healthy men in 2001. The purpose of the trial was to determine the dose dependency of testosterone’s effects on fat-free mass and muscle performance. In this trial 61 men, 18-35years old were randomized into 5 groups receiving weekly injections of 25, 50, 125, 300, 600 mg of Testosterone Enanthate for 20 weeks. They had previous weight-lifting experience and normal T levels. Their nutritional intake was standardized and they did not undertake any strength training during the trial. The only two groups that reported significant muscle building benefits were the 300 and 600 mg groups so any dose lower than 300mg will not be considered in this essay. 12 men participated in the 300 mg group and 13 men in the 600 mg group.
    600mg of Testosterone a week for 20 weeks resulted in the following benefits. Increased fat free mass, muscle strength, muscle power, muscle volume, hemoglobin and IGF-1.
    The same 600 mg administration resulted in 2 side effects. HDL cholesterol was negatively correlated and 2 men developed acne.
    The normal range for total T in men is 241-827 ng/dl according to Labcorp and 260-1000 ng/dl according to Quest Laboratories. The normal range for IGF-1 is 81-225 according to Labcorp. Total T and IGF-1 levels were taken after 16 weeks and resulted in the following;

    Total Testosterone
    300 mg group-1,345 ng/dl a 691 ng increase from baseline
    600 mg group-2,370 ng/dl a 1,737 ng increase from baseline
    IGF-1
    300 mg group-388 ng/dl a 74 ng increase from baseline
    600 mg group-304 ng/dl a 77 ng increase from baseline

    Body composition was measured after 20 weeks.

    Fat Free Mass by underwater weighing
    300 mg group-5.2kg (11.4lbs) increase
    600 mg group-7.9kg (17.38lbs) increase
    Fat Mass by underwater weighing
    300 mg group-.5kg (1.1lbs) decrease
    600 mg group-1.1kg (2.42lbs) decrease
    Thigh Muscle Volume
    300 mg group-84 cubic centimeter increase
    600 mg group-126 cubic centimeter increase
    Quadriceps Muscle Volume
    300 mg group-43 cubic centimeter increase
    600 mg group-68 cubic centimeter increase
    Leg Press Strength
    300 mg group-72.2kg (158.8lbs) increase
    600 mg group-76.5kg (168.3lbs) increase
    Leg Power
    300 mg group-38.6 watt increase
    600 mg group-48.1 watt increase
    Hemoglobin
    300 mg group-6.1 gram per liter increase
    600 mg group-14.2 gram per liter increase
    Plasma HDL Cholesterol
    300 mg group-5.7 mg/dl decrease
    600 mg group-8.4 mg/dl decrease
    Acne
    300 mg group-7 of the 12 men developed acne
    600 mg group-2 of the 13 men developed acne

    There were no significant changes in PSA or liver enzymes at any dose up to 600mg. However, long-term effects of androgen administration on the prostate, cardiovascular risk, and behavior are unknown. The study demonstrated that there is a dose dependant relationship with testosterone administration. In other words the more testosterone administered the greater the muscle building effects and potential for side effects.

    Given the results of the study and based on years of personal experience I believe the first time user can safely use between 300-600 mg of testosterone enanthate or cypionate per week for 8-12 weeks. Because it is desirable to have even blood androgen levels I advise at least 2 equal injections per week. The following graph demonstrates that testosterone cypionate peaks within 1-2 days after injection and falls off to almost baseline by day 10. Therefore waiting 7 days between injections of cypionate would cause wide fluctuations in blood androgen levels.

    Pharmacokinetics of Testosterone cypionate Injection

    Figure. Pharmacokinetics of 200mg Testosterone cypionate injection. Source: Comparison of Testosterone, dihydrotestosterone, luteinizing hormone, and follicle-stimulating hormone in serum after injection of Testosterone enanthate or Testosterone cypionate. Schulte-Beerbuhl M, Nieschlag E. Fertility and Sterility 33 (1980) 201-3.

    If a first time user wanted to use 600 mg of cypionate or enanthate per week he would inject 300 mg on Tuesday and another 300 mg on Saturday each week for 10 weeks. When injecting long heavy esters like cypionate with this frequency I tend to have less acne then 1 injection per week.
    There are a number of esters which provide varying release times. Acetate or propionate esters extend the release time of testosterone a couple of days. In contrast, a deconate ester prolongs the release of testosterone about 3 weeks. Testosterone enanthate and cypionate are almost identical esters. The use of an ester allows for a less frequent injection schedule than using a water based testosterone like suspension which has no ester at all and is rapidly in and out of your system after injection. The published release times are not exact and are many times based on a single injection not many multiple injections which can delay the release of the hormone. Other factors affect release times of esters such as scar tissue and the muscle group injected. Only a blood test can confirm when the active hormone has cleared your system.
    Esters not only effect release times but also the potency of the Testosterone as esters make up part of the steroid weight. This must be taken into account when calculating dosages. The longer the release time the less free hormone. For example propionate is about 15% more potent mg. for mg. then enanthate so 500mg of propionate would equal about 575 mg. of enanthate. The following chart illustrates the free base equivalents for several compounds.


    Although it was not indicated in the trial, during or after the steroid cycle some men are prone to gynecomastia which is the formation of female like breast tissue. This is due to excessive estrogen as the body tries to balance out the sex hormones. A selective estrogen receptor modulator or S.E.R.M. such as Tamoxifen can be used effectively to combat gynecamastia in an emergency as it competes for the estrogen receptor which in turn inhibits estrogens effects. It is highly recommended that a S.E.R.M. be available during treatment of Testosterone. 10-40mg daily is an effective dose however dosage is dependant on how much testosterone is administered as well as the individual himself.
    The decision to use steroids should not be taken lightly and should be the last consideration after implementing a solid nutritional, training and recovery plan. It is advised to get blood work when using these medications.

    Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men;
    http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/co...ll/281/6/E1172



    Ancillaries during the cycle



    Aromatase Inhibitor


    I briefly wrote about using Tamoxifen above for emergency gynecomastia treatment however I am convinced that there is a better strategy for controlling estrogen during a steroid cycle. Rather than waiting for the side effects of estrogen to present an aromatase inhibitor like Arimidex or Aromasin should be used on cycle to control Estrogen and keep free testosterone levels high. 0.5mg-1mg Arimidex daily OR 10-25mg Aromasin daily. Start with the lower dose and then see how that controls water retention, blood pressure and libido and make adjustments as needed. A blood test would be the most ideal way to determine the dosage of the AI. Free T needs to be in the high range and estradiol between 10-25 pg/ml.


    Human Chorionic Gonadotropin


    Testosterone-Induced gonadotropin suppression tends to cause atrophy of the testes and decreases intratesticular testosterone. In other words, when a male administers testosterone his testes shrink because they are suppressed. A simple way to restore ITT levels and maintain the mass of the testes is to administer HCG during testosterone treatment. During a study it was determined that HCG is dose dependant and that approximately 300iu HCG taken every other day restored ITT levels. This is 1,050iu HCG weekly. I recommend 500iu twice weekly while on testosterone treatment. On a very heavy cycle a third dose of 500iu could be added but that is typically not needed. HCG will not only keep ITT levels and the mass of the testes normal but will also aid in keeping the male fertile.


    Sample cycle with ancillaries


    Sunday 10mg Aromasin
    Monday 10mg Aromasin/500iu HCG
    Tuesday 10mg Aromasin/300mg Enanthate
    Wednesday 10mg Aromasin
    Thursday 10mg Aromasin
    Friday 10mg Aromasin/500iu HCG
    Saturday 10mg Aromasin/300mg Enanthate


    For all you guys who want to add multiple compounds to your first course I advise against it because if you have side effects then you will not know which compound is causing the sides. I have gotton a ton of PM's over the years and there is always some reason that I am given for using multiple compounds on the first run but there really is no need. However my cycle sample above may not be for everyone so I am offering an alternative to the flat cycle design. If you want to run a first cycle with a little more horespower than you may want to consider a modified pyramiding cycle. I have done over 20 pyramid courses and must say they are my favorite way to run aas. The human body is always fighting for homeostasis so the concept is to increase dose before gains plateau. Based on the 2009 myostatin study we can design a cycle that is effective for 10 weeks using this strategy. The following first cycle is for men that want a little more performance with added risk while only using Testosterone. The first 5 weeks a standard dose is administered to evaluate how your body responds and to determine if sides are manageable. If sides are manageable then increase the dose.

    Sample first course #2

    Week 1-5 600mg Testosterone weekly
    Week 6-8 800mg Testosterone weekly
    Week 9-10 1 gram Testosterone weekly

    10 mg Aromasin daily with the goal of keeping Estradiol between 10pg/ml-25pg/ml. Only blood work can confirm if you are in this range.

    500iu HCG twice weekly.


    Post Cycle therapy


    I strongly believe that an AI should be used as long as there is an aromatizing compound being administered. In this case Testosterone and HCG aromatize therefore using an AI until these meds clear and a few weeks longer is what I am recommending. There is some evidence that adding Nolva to an AI does not increase the effectiveness of estro control therefore Nolva has no real advantage alongside an AI unless one is experiencing gyno. Additionally Nolva has been shown to reduce IGF-1 and GH levels when used alone. This is not a big deal on cycle as testosterone increases IGF-1 in a dose dependant relationship. However off cycle this is a problem. PCT is a fragile time and lower IGF-1 and GH levels is not desirable. I am recommending an AI that is specific to men that can be used on cycle and during PCT. It is my conclusion that Aromasin is the obvious choice.

    I recommend the following PCT protocol for esters like Cypionate and Enanthate;

    Day 1-16 : 2500iu HCG every other day. (You may use less HCG if your testes are normal in size AND you have been using HCG on cycle, i.e. 1,000iu HCG eod.)

    100/100/100/50 Clomid (50mg taken twice per day weeks 1-3)

    20mg/20mg/20mg/10mg Aromasin (20mg daily for 3 weeks, 10mg daily in week 4)

    3g Vit C every day split in 3 doses

    10g creatine daily

    The HCG is administered BEFORE the ester clears to increase the mass of the testes and bring back ITT levels. This will allow the testes to sustain output of testosterone sooner.

    Clomid is universally accepted as THE testosterone recovery tool. It blocks estrogen from the HPTA and stimulates the production of GNRH then initiates the production of LH, which in turn signals the testis (if not atrophied) to produce testosterone.

    Aromasin or a similar aromatase inhibitor is for testosterone recovery and it is used to keep the testosterone/estrogen balance in favor of testosterone. It is also helps to keep any additionally occurring estrogen from HCG low to none.

    Cortisol is catabolic. It is the enemy of all anabolism and must be kept in check. While it is blocked when under the influence of AAS, it is free to attach to the Anabolic Receptors (AR) once the steroids leave. Due to this blockage Cortisol tends to accumulate and increase when on. A low level is desirable however since it is important for other vital functions such as control of inflammation. Balance is the key. Vitimin C keeps the exercise induced rise of Cortisol in check.

    The use of Creatine has shown to increase ATP metabolism and cellular water storage among many other things. This is beneficial because it provides for heightened nutrient storage and a slight increase in anabolism as well as workout stamina.

    References

    Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men;

    Pharmacokinetics and Dose Finding of a Potent Aromatase Inhibitor, Aromasin (Exemestane), in Young Males

    Low-Dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Maintains Intratesticular Testosterone in Normal Men with Testosterone-Induced Gonadotropin Suppression

    Use of clomiphene citrate to reverse premature andropause secondary to steroid abuse.

    Changes in the Endocrinological Milieu After Clomiphene Citrate Treatment for Oligozoospermia: The Clinical Significance of the Estradiol/Testosterone Ratio as a Prognostic Value

    Special thanks to those men and women who have influnced my thinking over the years in regards to aas use. In particular I would like to thank Ulter from AFBOARD, Dr Pangloss, Sassy69 and Warrior.

    Written by heavyiron

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    MUSCLEHEAD mr intensity's Avatar
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    attila, s2h heavyiron

    just a few topics that can help
    1. Stacking testosterone + other anabolic drugs on basis of receptor affinity
    2. Non-Androgen mediated muscle growth - drugs and physiology
    3. Endocrinology of muscle cell hypertrophy its relationship with testosterone
    4. Plasma Protiens+DHT+Estrogen and its relationship with libido
    5. Mentaining fertility while "On cycle"
    6. sample precontest stacks and antiaromatase and antiestrogen use at the very end of the precontest.
    7. Ancillary general health supplements for prophylaxsis every possible side effects while On cycle and OFF cycle.

    would be great if you could provide info on these topics

    Mr. Intensity

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    thanks MI. this will be a work in progress and all of those topics are certainly worth exploring.

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    UltraFit360.com axioma's Avatar
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    Questions related to HGH...
    1. At what dose (40+ male) is it advantageous to supplement GH w/T3? and for what duration?
    2. At what dose and to what end is it (ever?) advantageous to supplement GH w/T3 AND T4? How long?
    3. While typical protocol is 2-4ius daily, is there a point of diminishing return by upping dose? Is there any benefit from ramping up to 10+ ius daily for 8-12 weeks?

    While I want your (collective) opinions, questions are prompted to a degree by posts by GH15 on other boards. If you aren't a Master or have specific knowledge related to this subject, please don't clutter with conjecture...thanks.

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    Awesome job you guys are doing on this thread so far. Thanks!

    I just want to remind the forum members to remember that if you have questions specific to HRT, we still have Dr. Nathan's thread also. Dr. Nathan has told me that he is still around and would also love to help you guys/girls out.

    How great is that! This RX muscle masters forum has to awesome threads on AAS and HRT to help you guys/girls out!

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    MUSCLEHEAD mr intensity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uncle attila View Post
    thanks MI. this will be a work in progress and all of those topics are certainly worth exploring.

    hey attila n S2H.
    These topics are not generally discussed, but once a person gets into the world of AAS, he will certainly need "APPLIED-TESTED INFO", which only a calibure of heavyiron or yourself or S2h-can provide (oh yes... barbellman, joe-d and gunners etc etc.... you too...ok happy..lol)

    Besides we can talk over other aspects of AAS and can get down to some Intelligently discussed refined info-as a Reference points--- we see every other day some posts on HIGH-DOSAGE use etc by PROS----BUT then they do not talk about the HUGE GENERAL-HEALTH SUPPORT SUPPLEMENTS the pro uses...i spoke to a good number of IFBB pros and NPC greats,-of---course there is unsual freaky stuff---BUT THE AMOUNT GENERAL HEALTH SUPPORT SUPPLEMENTS--was even freakier, So no matter what people think--these SUPPORT-SUPPLEMENTS Should be a part of the bodybuilding life style.
    These bodybuilders use SUPPORT-SUPPLEMENTS as if already suffering,
    Liver support--drugs used as if the person is getting treated for LIVER cirrhosis(not exactly----but you get my point)---cardiovascular support---to a level of a 75 year old guy who survived a 2nd heart attack--niacin-aspirin-CQ10-Omega-3-15grams--statins--ramipril and what not.

    S2H and attila, i would really appreciate if you guys re-consider the "lifting off" the Ban on Dr Pangloss... ..he is a genious. He is not here,..the fact... itself states that it is a loss to us here....i have studied heavyiron`s case trial studies and his writings follow his protocols--and i think you both will agree over the fact that heavyiron is One of the MOST-KNOWLEDGEABLE-AAS-ADVICERS/GURU/-on the internet, and now this man, Dr pangloss is no less--he can be called heavyiron-2.

    -its like despite knowing that there is another Heavyiron---and he is not with us, we are at a loss "RELATIVELY".

    just my brology
    mr Intensity

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    UltraFit360.com axioma's Avatar
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    Hope you guys come back soon to address some of this...really think the "support regimen" is often overlooked and misunderstood, good topic to address.

    Most gym rats I know don't have even a remote understanding of PCT...

    Looking forward to reply to GH/thyroid question and also "what, IYO (collectively), are the most "synergistic combinations?"

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    STRONGMAN Bryan Hildebrand's Avatar
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    sorry. s2h and i have been busy this week. I just wanted to get the ball rolling with this section. I wont be around much this weekend but by next week hope to have some info regarding these subjects, especially recovery and support. these are two areas much better served by s2h than me, but we will get something together...

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    Quote Originally Posted by axioma View Post
    Questions related to HGH...
    1. At what dose (40+ male) is it advantageous to supplement GH w/T3? and for what duration?
    2. At what dose and to what end is it (ever?) advantageous to supplement GH w/T3 AND T4? How long?
    3. While typical protocol is 2-4ius daily, is there a point of diminishing return by upping dose? Is there any benefit from ramping up to 10+ ius daily for 8-12 weeks?

    While I want your (collective) opinions, questions are prompted to a degree by posts by GH15 on other boards. If you aren't a Master or have specific knowledge related to this subject, please don't clutter with conjecture...thanks.

    I use blood tests to determine my T3/T4 level then supplement to get into the high normal range. Most of the time using HGH dosages in the range you are discussing will necessitate T3/T4 supplementation. At 4 iu per day I need a pretty high thyroid dosage. Your results may vary.

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    Awesome thread, would love to learn more about GH and T3. Please expound on various protocols Always been on the fence, I have to be throughly educated before trying anything.

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    UltraFit360.com axioma's Avatar
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    Hope someone gets back to this thread soon, keep it alive...the longer it sits, the more likely to have it digress to conjecture and bro-isms....

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    it wont. I will weed bro-ism's.

    sorry, but I had a hot brunette performing sexual favors all weekend and I need this morning to recover. i'm getting old. trying to keep up with a hot 30'something is more challenging than i remember.

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    UltraFit360.com axioma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uncle attila View Post
    it wont. I will weed bro-ism's.

    sorry, but I had a hot brunette performing sexual favors all weekend and I need this morning to recover. i'm getting old. trying to keep up with a hot 30'something is more challenging than i remember.
    You....Baldie....hmmmmm

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    STRONGMAN Bryan Hildebrand's Avatar
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    and to those who wondered.... sallyanne was blond when we were first seeing one another. she is back to brunette now.

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    UltraFit360.com axioma's Avatar
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    Got an addendum to the gh/t3 question:
    At what dose, test and gh, would the most "synergy" (iyo) occur?

    What is your experience (if any) with chinese growth and how (iyo) would it stack, iu:iu with the pharm grade? I understand that pharm is the way to go/grow, however positive results have been achieved with the soma's, hygets, etc. What is a good equivalence ratio?
    Thanks guys.

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    UltraFit360.com axioma's Avatar
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    I have noticed that the guys who are taking a lead on this thread have been active on the chem section. I don't mind going there if monitoring two threads is too time consuming. That said, should I repost the above post regarding hgh/thyroid on the chem section?

    I, along with many others, would like to build a body of knowledge relavent to masters competitors. Someone mentioned that they got a prompt reply when PMing a question to one of the chem guys, and I don't mind doing that as well. I just thought that the above questions were pertinent and general enough to be answered in this thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by axioma View Post
    Got an addendum to the gh/t3 question:
    At what dose, test and gh, would the most "synergy" (iyo) occur?

    What is your experience (if any) with chinese growth and how (iyo) would it stack, iu:iu with the pharm grade? I understand that pharm is the way to go/grow, however positive results have been achieved with the soma's, hygets, etc. What is a good equivalence ratio?
    Thanks guys.
    i normally take a simple approach to GH as far as chinese GH and pharm grade...pharm grade is 2ius ed..chinese is 4ius ed..this is a simple formula for fat loss puposes..the prob with Ch GH is its not all the same..many come in with the same labels.# etc but the quality can be suspect at times..as far as test and gh..it really depends on your goal...there are several studies that show that the use of high dosing GH doesnt warrant the return...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerfit View Post
    Awesome thread, would love to learn more about GH and T3. Please expound on various protocols Always been on the fence, I have to be throughly educated before trying anything.
    this has been a topic of discussion in the chem section as of late..the actuall best results can be seen by using GH with t4..the conversion process of t4/t3 causes a greater reaction in the body..hence increasing the effectivness of Gh...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobr View Post
    I use blood tests to determine my T3/T4 level then supplement to get into the high normal range. Most of the time using HGH dosages in the range you are discussing will necessitate T3/T4 supplementation. At 4 iu per day I need a pretty high thyroid dosage. Your results may vary.
    a solid point..many "jump" into using t4/t3 w/out knowing what there natural levels are..so if your deficient in one of these then more may be needed..BW is a must to find were you stand...
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    there are many factors that can effect ones production at the thyroid..females tend to have more issues then men in some cases..auto immune dieases such as hashi motos diease and scarin gof the thyroid..can cause major problems in the thyroids ability to function at a normal level...when your thyroid is not functioning correctly you will generally see high TSH #'s..this is becuse your pituatary gland is not getting any feedback from your body..so it will continue to produce high levels of TSH to attempt to signal your thyroid to produce..when this occurs t4 is administered to correct the situation...so if you have a slow or non functioning thyroid t3 isnt gonna be the answer in most cases...t4 is...
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    another common thought in the BB world is that you need to taper off of t3...there are clinical studies that show most peps with a normal thyroid..will bounce back from moderate t3 use w/out tapering down..exceptions would be excessive t3 use for long durations and a person with pre-exisitng thyroid issues..so in a nut shell..if you hav e a normal functioning thyroid(found thru pre use BW)and you run a avg pre-contest t3 cycle..say 25mcgs up to 75mcgs..there may be no need to taper down..as always get post show BW to determine were you stand...
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    and for the record, I answer PM's from my phone as well... we havent been ignoring you, the idea of sweeping out the old and bringing in the new was part of larger plan that for me, has become consumed with other projects and life. be patient my graying padawans. the info shall be wrong with you.

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    UltraFit360.com axioma's Avatar
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    Excellent info, worth the wait!!!!! Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by s2h View Post
    Great read...basically here's the message

    If you’ve been using GH without T4, you’ve been wasting half your money – and if you’ve been using it with T3, you’ve been wasting your time. Start using T4 with your GH, and you’ll finally be getting the full results from your investment.

    Read more from this MESO-Rx article at: http://www.mesomorphosis.com/article...#ixzz1BgaE1t3W

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    Quote Originally Posted by axioma View Post
    Excellent info, worth the wait!!!!! Thanks.
    awesome..sorry about the absence..i skipped school alot..so its by nature..i will be better..glad that helped ya...
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    UltraFit360.com axioma's Avatar
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    Ran across this Anthony Roberts profile related to T3 and T4. Did a pretty good job of explaining why some say T3...the synergy that results from T4 and GH.

    Recently though, due mostly to an article written by myself and Dr.James Daemon, T4 has been experiencing a bit of a renaissance. This is due to it being a bit more muscle sparing, and synergy with growth hormone. Most bodybuilders use use GH for precontest dieting, and T4 has found a bit of a niche for those using GH and dieting. At this point, whether on a diet or not, T4 has become a much sought after drug for use with cutting cycles which include Growth hormone. I have even received a phone call from doctors and Hormone Replacement Clinics, who wanted more practical information on the use of GH + T4.
    So, at this point, I think that most of the people in the bodybuilding world who are using T4 are using it along with their Growth Hormone for the most part.
    Anecdotally, many bodybuilders feel that T4 is less harsh on muscle tissue and they’re able to maintain more muscle when dieting down by using T4, than compared with when they’ve used T3.


    Read more from this MESO-Rx article at: http://www.mesomorphosis.com/steroid...#ixzz1CGS0UwDD

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    UltraFit360.com axioma's Avatar
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    What is your opinion regarding reconstituting Gh? I have been told to use bac water, as it is more stable and less degradation of Gh, however I see where manufacturers say sterile saline. Will use of bac water damage the Gh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by axioma View Post
    What is your opinion regarding reconstituting Gh? I have been told to use bac water, as it is more stable and less degradation of Gh, however I see where manufacturers say sterile saline. Will use of bac water damage the Gh?
    bac water is fine..alot of the probs with reconstituting GH comes from ones care of it..mixing it to fast..shaking it..off temp etc..treat it like a baby..nice and soft...
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    Thanks, I almost had a heart attack, thinking I was screwing up the $$$baby.

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    Quote Originally Posted by axioma View Post
    Ran across this Anthony Roberts profile related to T3 and T4. Did a pretty good job of explaining why some say T3...the synergy that results from T4 and GH.

    Recently though, due mostly to an article written by myself and Dr.James Daemon, T4 has been experiencing a bit of a renaissance. This is due to it being a bit more muscle sparing, and synergy with growth hormone. Most bodybuilders use use GH for precontest dieting, and T4 has found a bit of a niche for those using GH and dieting. At this point, whether on a diet or not, T4 has become a much sought after drug for use with cutting cycles which include Growth hormone. I have even received a phone call from doctors and Hormone Replacement Clinics, who wanted more practical information on the use of GH + T4.
    So, at this point, I think that most of the people in the bodybuilding world who are using T4 are using it along with their Growth Hormone for the most part.
    Anecdotally, many bodybuilders feel that T4 is less harsh on muscle tissue and they’re able to maintain more muscle when dieting down by using T4, than compared with when they’ve used T3.


    Read more from this MESO-Rx article at: http://www.mesomorphosis.com/steroid...#ixzz1CGS0UwDD
    So being the simple mind that I am....if T3 is good for fat reduction without GH and T4 converts into T3 and T4 is less harse on muscle wasting than T3 why wouldn't T4 be better also without GH for fat reduction while on low carb diet?

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    Quote Originally Posted by s2h View Post
    i normally take a simple approach to GH as far as chinese GH and pharm grade...pharm grade is 2ius ed..chinese is 4ius ed..this is a simple formula for fat loss puposes..the prob with Ch GH is its not all the same..many come in with the same labels.# etc but the quality can be suspect at times..as far as test and gh..it really depends on your goal...there are several studies that show that the use of high dosing GH doesnt warrant the return...

    Here's my take and experience on Chinese Vs pharma grade. I used Nordatropin at about 2.5 Iu/day for 2 years. With this dose/product I had carpal tunnel symptoms for about 8 weeks then none. This dosage with this product was very expensive and was breaking my bank so I looked to the street for some financial relief. I found Chinese unlabeled for $2.50/IU. I was paying about 17 bucks/iu for the pharma grade. I immediately upped my dosage to 5 iu/day and within 6 weeks had carpal tunnels symptoms real bad. I hung on as long as I could then finally had to drop to 5 IU 2 on and one off which effective lowered my dosage about 1/3. I still have finger stiffness and some hand tingling but I can live with this. Before I cut the dosage I was awakened at least 3 times per night with burning pain from my elbow to my fingers. I also found that with the Chinese I needed more t3. I am now taking about twice as much as when I was using the Nordatropin. As was mentioned the quality may vary. I had some sold to me that looked like crack rocks. I exchanged them and told my guy to not try to sell me any more of that crap. I now inspect every vial before I pay. I would say that, if anything, the Chinese stuff is more potent-at least the stuff I'm getting.

  40. #40
    NOVICE Bobr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by s2h View Post
    a solid point..many "jump" into using t4/t3 w/out knowing what there natural levels are..so if your deficient in one of these then more may be needed..BW is a must to find were you stand...

    When I started feeling sluggish after beginning the Chinese HGH usage I had mine tested and found it to be very low. I was taking Armour then. I just added straight T3 to the Armour and it's now where I want it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerfit View Post
    So being the simple mind that I am....if T3 is good for fat reduction without GH and T4 converts into T3 and T4 is less harse on muscle wasting than T3 why wouldn't T4 be better also without GH for fat reduction while on low carb diet?
    t3 is a much more active hormone..so its use alone is going to be more effective then t4....
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    Default Tren Ace vs Tren enanthate

    I've been using Tren ace since I started using tren. Recently I got some Tren enathate that I'd like to use on my next cycle. What is the optimum dosing for enanthate?

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    I might have to dig into my (deceased) dog's supply of prescription T4. That shit was dirt cheap for a bottle of 1,000. LOL.

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    GYM RAT mkris7's Avatar
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    Never tried GH. Always been old school with the ASS. Think 70's and 80's popular ones.
    My question, now that I am in my mid forties, would it be beneficial to include in a stack?

    And is better for off season, or contest. My purpose would be quality vs. Mass.
    Thanks in Advance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mkris7 View Post
    Never tried GH. Always been old school with the ASS. Think 70's and 80's popular ones.
    My question, now that I am in my mid forties, would it be beneficial to include in a stack?

    And is better for off season, or contest. My purpose would be quality vs. Mass.
    Thanks in Advance.

    Some guys say that HGH precipitates growth and some say not so much. I'm in the "not so much" camp. If I use more than 10 IU's in 3 days my hands go numb so that may be my problem. I'm still using it but not with any expectations.

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