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  1. #31
    BigDawg Dre23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunners View Post
    I'm wandering dre how this thing fits in with your goals? Just because you can get a script for it (motha fuckaaah), doesn't mean you need to run it.

    I mean at 300lbs of LBM, how much more muscle does one need?

    Test/Deca, GH, T3/T4, Aromasin that looks like the perfect combo for a guy in your situation.
    Honestly, I probably don't 'need' it, and probably won't run it since I have gotten a hold of Gen-X stuff for my rats, but was just initially interested in if it was 'better' since it was FDA approved.

    And your stack listed above is exactly what I'm running, plus some Mast (yes, yes, I know...I'm much too fat for Mast, or so the saying goes, but I'm loving it!), but igf intrigues me for it's possible hyperplasia properties and ability to seem to repartition how calories are used to some degree which would be immensely helpful to someone in my medical situation.

    And maybe I'm just too impressionable, but I know that being on here and reading all this new stuff that's out there (not that igf is new, but in the scheme of things it is) makes one want to try more things than what I had originally planned.

    On a side note, got labs last week so am gonna post them up by the end of the week and get some feedback.
    Last edited by Dre23; 03-28-2011 at 11:37 AM.




  2. #32
    MUSCLEHEAD Gunners's Avatar
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    yeah don't get me wrong, not sayin it would be counterproductive at all - just wondered if it would really benefit you, as they say curiosity killed the cat, i can sympathise with that one.

  3. #33
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    I hope I won't break any rules, and sorry in advance if looks like I hijacked the thread for promotion purposes. We produce IGF1-lr3 in a western country under the name Somedin. Happened to find this link on a google search when one of my customers asked me the same question - if our product is the same as Increlex. Increlex contains IGF1 that is identical to the human exogenous IGF1 , while we offer the Somedin (IGF1-lr3) which is identical to the patented IGF1-lr3 by Repligen Swiss. The LR3 stands for an addition of a "tail" added in a certain configuration to the IGF1 molecule, which makes the IGF1-lr3 much more potent.
    For a brief explanation (refer to http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18567600 ) - The actions of IGF-I in vivo are modulated by IGF binding proteins (IGFBPs), which generally act to inhibit IGF-I signalling. the analogue of IGF-I (LR IGF-I) has a significantly reduced binding affinity for IGFBPs. In simple words most of the IGF1 in the body is bounded to binding proteins (same as u probably know is testosterone and other hormones) which makes it non active, the, the new configuration in the Somedin helps it travel in its active form in the serum and activates its receptors much much more effectively. As you may check in a simple google search on the Increlex it requires much higher dosages - a kid may require 12000mcg a day (like 150 times higher dosage then a 240lbs athlete may need)
    Now anyone may ask himself - why then the prescribed IGF1 is not IGF1-lr3 then ? - I'm not an expert for this subject but I may speculate, a very based speculation, that making a drug to a prescribed drug simply requires the investment of great deal of resources and tedious 3 phases of clinical trials, while there are very few kids who are prescribed with IGF1 (the only ones to get this med are the ones who has a mutation in their GH receptor (rare) so GH conventional treatment doesn't work on them)

  4. #34
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    Why would you want a 10mg vial? Seeing as how you shouldn't go over 20mcg per day and take 4 weeks on 2 off, you would waste a lot of it because Im sure it would go bad being reconstituted for about 4 months.
    The only way I could see using this would be to follow Dave Palumbo guide for reconstituting IGF-1 and put 100mcg in 1cc in an insulin pin and freeze it. So with 10mg you would have about 100 insulin syringes in your freezer!
    If you go crazy with this shit your receptors will down regulate and the shit will be essentially worthless.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC123Jm View Post
    Jesus that's a lot of IGF, even if they are deficient. well at least compared to BB dosage. We need someone to give it a try and see what happens. any
    volunteers?

    maybe IGF really is the secret and we just aren't using enough
    Its not. If you mega dose IGF-1 it won't work bro. If you over dose any protein peptide like IGF-1 your receptors down regulate and any amount you take won't work. I spoke with Dave Palumbo about this and he told me multiple times "do not use more than 20mcg per day" for this reason. So even following the recommended dosage schedule you are risking wasting your money and not gaining anything on it. Ask Dave if you don't believe me.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by trojanhorse69 View Post
    Its not. If you mega dose IGF-1 it won't work bro. If you over dose any protein peptide like IGF-1 your receptors down regulate and any amount you take won't work. I spoke with Dave Palumbo about this and he told me multiple times "do not use more than 20mcg per day" for this reason. So even following the recommended dosage schedule you are risking wasting your money and not gaining anything on it. Ask Dave if you don't believe me.
    First - you must refer to a dosage of IGF1-lr3 and not to a dosage of Increlex, sorry if I said the obvious, just emphasizing it
    Second - may you pls refer me to Palumbo article that suggest such low dosage ?
    Based on our experience (and we've tested few protocols) optimal dosage will actually be 100-200mcg a day, of course lower dosages may be used with some success, but 20mcg won't yield much if any autocrine anabolic effect

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sciroxx View Post
    First - you must refer to a dosage of IGF1-lr3 and not to a dosage of Increlex, sorry if I said the obvious, just emphasizing it
    Second - may you pls refer me to Palumbo article that suggest such low dosage ?
    Based on our experience (and we've tested few protocols) optimal dosage will actually be 100-200mcg a day, of course lower dosages may be used with some success, but 20mcg won't yield much if any autocrine anabolic effect

    Dave Palumbo
    Sep 2 (9 days ago)

    to me






    No more than 20mcg per day 4 weeks on; 2 weeks off

    This is an email I got from Dave. Also check out his article here:

    http://www.davepalumbo.com/members-dpdotcom/Articles222.htm



    Last edited by trojanhorse69; 09-11-2016 at 03:38 PM.

  8. #38
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    I began to keep notes and I worked out a system by which bodybuilders would inject Long R3 IGF-1 [about 10-20mcg (micrograms)] within 15 minutes following a workout so that the IGF-1 could circulate and locate these newly produced IGF-1 receptors on the damaged muscle cell membranes (These new receptors appear as a direct result of damage induced by intense weight training and muscular trauma). It is at these damaged cells that the body increases the number of IGF-1 receptors so that it can "signal" where the muscle repairs must be performed (this is why muscle cells GROW, preferentially, and not bone tissue or internal organs as rumored). However, as the dosage of IGF-1 increases above the suggested 10-20mcg per day, the IGF-1 muscle cell receptors become saturated and now all this excess IGF-1 goes straight to the highest naturally occurring concentration of IGF-1 receptors-- the extremities (i.e. Feet, hands, and facial bones), whereby, side effects like shoe and hand size increases and facial bone thickening can occur. Additionally, high Long R3 IGF-1 dosing will lead to decreases in muscle cell IGF-1 receptors thus diminishing the results seen with Long R3 IGF-1 usage over time. Therefore, 10-20mcg per day of Long R3 IGF-1 will cause significant muscle cell hyperplasia and it will continue to do so extremely effectively for approximately 30 days. Even with conservative amounts of Long R3 IGF-1, the hormone still stops functioning after a period of time, therefore, I usually suggest that bodybuilders take a 2-4 week "holiday" off the Long R3 IGF-1 after every 30 day course of administration.

    This is right from the article above. I don't recommend using 100-200mcg of IGF-1 a day. That is way too much. I have correspconded many times with Dave and he's always told me to stay at 20mcg a day maximum. His theory is that protein receptors are fragile and thus overloading them with dosages like you're recommending will cause your body to reject the IGF-1 at the receptors because they down-regulate so fast.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by trojanhorse69 View Post
    Dave Palumbo
    Sep 2 (9 days ago)

    to me






    No more than 20mcg per day 4 weeks on; 2 weeks off

    This is an email I got from Dave. Also check out his article here:

    http://www.davepalumbo.com/members-dpdotcom/Articles222.htm



    Dave Palumbo is an authority, but I have to disagree with him on this part, for anabolic and anti catabolic purposes higher dosages are required, on the article I quoted dosages of about 5000 higher then this were applied but on mouses of course, but it just gives an indication.
    I also (no disrespect) can't agree with the notion that by exceeding a certain dosage the muscles's receptors are saturated so the IGF1 finding its way to other target tissues, the IGF1 of course interacts with all its target tissues on the same manner, some of it's metabolic effects on so many different metabolic processes has a certain limit which stems from certain mechanism in the body.
    I also base my recommendations on the proven experience of some pros I'm quite involved with their game plans as work closely with theirr couches. IGF1 of course shines if used in combination with GH, they have a distinct synergistic effect, I'll post about it separately. The common dosages for such pros are between 9 iu off season to 18 and even 24 iu pre contest with IGF1 at 100-200mcg a day on periods of 4 weeks on and 2 weeks off, GH and IGF1 are dropped 1-2 weeks pre contest of course due to their distinct water retention effect

  10. #40
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    I hear you but we will have to agree to disagree. I have found Dave to be right about most of what he has told me. He also says that most people especially today tend to use way too much gear and recommends that you not go over 4iu of hGH a day. I had my IGF-1 levels tested and they came back at about 500 ng/mL on 4iu a day. I can't see how more GH could increase IGF-1 levels above 600. Watch Dave's video about insane GH dosages.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztdUEZ7GA9Q

    Its an interesting video. John Romano talks with Dave about how pros and amateurs today use crazy GH dosages. People are risking their health and lives by using 10+iu of GH a day.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by trojanhorse69 View Post
    I hear you but we will have to agree to disagree. I have found Dave to be right about most of what he has told me. He also says that most people especially today tend to use way too much gear and recommends that you not go over 4iu of hGH a day. I had my IGF-1 levels tested and they came back at about 500 ng/mL on 4iu a day. I can't see how more GH could increase IGF-1 levels above 600. Watch Dave's video about insane GH dosages.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztdUEZ7GA9Q

    Its an interesting video. John Romano talks with Dave about how pros and amateurs today use crazy GH dosages. People are risking their health and lives by using 10+iu of GH a day.
    I certainly agree at least to some degree with your claims concerning the super high dosages, the notion of more is always better is very typical to bodybuilders.

    the dosages I mentioned are relevant to pros of course, just to show and give some indication.

    However I insist that there is more potential in the GH then 4 iu a day, whih is a basic though effective dosage. The IGF1 serum levels does give an indication for the clinical effect of the GH, but GH exert his effect not only via IGF1. Here is an endocrinologist review on this matter -

    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8853443
    ===================================

    GH may exert metabolic effects either directly or indirectly through increased production of IGF-I. GH administration increases circulating IGF-I levels via stimulation of hepatic synthesis and secretion of IGF-I; it may also enhance local IGF-I synthesis, which exerts paracrine or autocrine effects. Figure 2 summarizes the metabolic effects of GH and IGF-I. Administration of GH and IGF-I in adult humans has been demonstrated to enhance protein anabolism. Combined administration of GH and IGF-I was observed to be more anabolic than either IGF-I or GH alone. Evidence is presented that protein accretion results mainly from direct effects of GH on tissues; additional indirect effects via IGF-I production are also likely. Administration of GH has been reported to produce carbohydrate intolerance with elevated plasma insulin levels, resulting from insulin resistance. in contrast, insulin sensitivity increased during administration of IGF-I, which exerts hypoglycaemic effects even with concomitant suppression of insulin secretion. A major direct metabolic effect of GH is to increase fat mobilization and oxidation, and thereby to reduce total body fat; there is no evidence that IGF-I acts directly on adipose tissue in vivo. GH administration results in sodium retention via stimulation of Na-K-ATPase. It is suggested that part of the effects of GH on tubular function (e.g. phosphate reabsorption) are mediated via IGF-I. Energy expenditure may be increased by administration of either GH or relatively high doses of IGF-I. One of the reasons for this phenomenon is an increase in lean body mass; GH may increase energy expenditure additionally be enhancing the production of T3 and by increasing lipid oxidation

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sciroxx View Post
    I certainly agree at least to some degree with your claims concerning the super high dosages, the notion of more is always better is very typical to bodybuilders.

    the dosages I mentioned are relevant to pros of course, just to show and give some indication.

    However I insist that there is more potential in the GH then 4 iu a day, whih is a basic though effective dosage. The IGF1 serum levels does give an indication for the clinical effect of the GH, but GH exert his effect not only via IGF1. Here is an endocrinologist review on this matter -

    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8853443
    ===================================

    GH may exert metabolic effects either directly or indirectly through increased production of IGF-I. GH administration increases circulating IGF-I levels via stimulation of hepatic synthesis and secretion of IGF-I; it may also enhance local IGF-I synthesis, which exerts paracrine or autocrine effects. Figure 2 summarizes the metabolic effects of GH and IGF-I. Administration of GH and IGF-I in adult humans has been demonstrated to enhance protein anabolism. Combined administration of GH and IGF-I was observed to be more anabolic than either IGF-I or GH alone. Evidence is presented that protein accretion results mainly from direct effects of GH on tissues; additional indirect effects via IGF-I production are also likely. Administration of GH has been reported to produce carbohydrate intolerance with elevated plasma insulin levels, resulting from insulin resistance. in contrast, insulin sensitivity increased during administration of IGF-I, which exerts hypoglycaemic effects even with concomitant suppression of insulin secretion. A major direct metabolic effect of GH is to increase fat mobilization and oxidation, and thereby to reduce total body fat; there is no evidence that IGF-I acts directly on adipose tissue in vivo. GH administration results in sodium retention via stimulation of Na-K-ATPase. It is suggested that part of the effects of GH on tubular function (e.g. phosphate reabsorption) are mediated via IGF-I. Energy expenditure may be increased by administration of either GH or relatively high doses of IGF-I. One of the reasons for this phenomenon is an increase in lean body mass; GH may increase energy expenditure additionally be enhancing the production of T3 and by increasing lipid oxidation
    Very interesting read. Thanks bro. Im just going by Dave Palumbo saying that most pros in the 90's when GH was ridiculously expensive used from 2-4iu of GH a day. I have gone up to 10iu a day but the water retention was insane and I couldn't stay at that dose. I'm happy at 4iu a day in the AM. I also use IGF-1 at 30mcg a day. Its working very well as I haven't lost a pound after coming off a pretty heavy steroid cycle. I can't wait to see what hGH and IGF-1 does with anabolics. I know there is synergy between them.

  13. #43
    RX MEMBER canada's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trojanhorse69 View Post
    I hear you but we will have to agree to disagree. I have found Dave to be right about most of what he has told me. He also says that most people especially today tend to use way too much gear and recommends that you not go over 4iu of hGH a day. I had my IGF-1 levels tested and they came back at about 500 ng/mL on 4iu a day. I can't see how more GH could increase IGF-1 levels above 600. Watch Dave's video about insane GH dosages.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztdUEZ7GA9Q

    Its an interesting video. John Romano talks with Dave about how pros and amateurs today use crazy GH dosages. People are risking their health and lives by using 10+iu of GH a day.
    Were you using pharm? I had my igf-1 levels over 600+ on GH

  14. #44
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    Regarding the observation of pros - it's generally agreed that most pros are what might be termed 'super high responders'. Not just of training and supplements but also to high protein diets, drugs, AAS and, as per this topic, IGF-1. Ergo, unless you're 'pro-like' following a pro's protocol and hoping to get the same response doesn't follow logically.
    06, 08, 09 and now 2010 British (4x) and 2008/2010 European Grip Champion (2x)

  15. #45
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    Also, regarding GH use, I looked into this for a sufferer of colitis and we looked at the sides. Carpel Tunnel issues were prevalent in sufferers with high disposable income who spent, on average, $500 (2015 prices) and in bodybuilders (UK Muscle forum feedback) who exceeded 5IU per day (some as little as 2.5iu per day) for any period exceeding 1 month.

    From a muscle building perspective I'd either look at Dave's suggestions - they will be based on ALL potential users and have science and not pro feedback or look at mimicking the way the body releases GH. Ditto IGF-1.
    06, 08, 09 and now 2010 British (4x) and 2008/2010 European Grip Champion (2x)

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