Women and Testosterone

[Tatyana]

Let's see if I have this right:

Any anabolics that aromatise to oestrogen are going to stop oestrogen production because of negative feedback.

Anti-oestrogens and SERMS are probably not going to stop endogenous (our own natural) oestrogen production to the same extent.

If women are going to run test, then they could use some form of PCT like Clomid, which is going to increase LH/FSH production, which in turn is going to get the ovaries to start to produce oestrogen again.

[SallyAnne]

Well, this might sound funny, but I will never volunteer information if I am not asked to. I try to be humble and respectful of the competitors and pros on the boards who have been doing this far longer than I have. I am sure many might disagree with me on certain things, as everyone has a different approach, but drugs are a passion of mine, lol, and so I have invested quite a bit of time studying them.

I appreciate your openness honesty on the subject, SS. I learned something new - I did not know that 80mg a week of test would change our genentic makeup. That is an eye opener.

[GirlyMuscle]

Just curious....how much test does the average woman run? Generally speaking of course. For example I know women usually do 10-15 mg anavar with some higher or lower. What about test?

[SallyAnne]

Just curious....how much test does the average woman run? Generally speaking of course. For example I know women usually do 10-15 mg anavar with some higher or lower. What about test?

I have talked to women who have run anywhere from 5mg EOD to 30mg ED. Obviously, I think the low number is the better one.

I personally have nothing against women trying any kind of AAS - I'm just a big believer in the "less is more" theory. Unfortunately, many people feel that "more is better" - and that's when they run into problems.



Tatyana -how much testosterone does a female body produce? Say, a woman in their 20's compared to a woman in her late 30's to 40's?

[Tatyana]

I appreciate your openness honesty on the subject, SS. I learned something new - I did not know that 80mg a week of test would change our genentic makeup. That is an eye opener.

Hey, we could have male chromosomes, XY, instead of the female XX and still be 'normal' females.

Why do you think I am such a science geek, it is so interesting and mind expanding.

[Tatyana]

I have talked to women who have run anywhere from 5mg EOD to 30mg ED. Obviously, I think the low number is the better one.

I personally have nothing against women trying any kind of AAS - I'm just a big believer in the "less is more" theory. Unfortunately, many people feel that "more is better" - and that's when they run into problems.



Tatyana -how much testosterone does a female body produce? Say, a woman in their 20's compared to a woman in her late 30's to 40's?

More of our testosterone is made in our adrenal glands, rather than our ovaries (although a small amount is made there).

I have never seen an aged base reference range for women and testosterone.

It stands to reason that we don't stop making testosterone. I think that is one of the reasons why older women get thicker through the waist, and why we see little old grannies with beards.

We typically have: (I am using various units as they do get reported differently):

Female

International/SI: 0.2-3.5 nmol/L

US: 6-100 ng/dL

OR

58-1010 pg/mL

Just to compare this to male reference ranges

Male

International/SI: 10-35 nmol/L

US: 288-1010 ng/dL

OR

2884-10,095 pg/mL.

[Tre]

I used to be opposed to 'straight test' use for (most) women.

Now, though, I say you should take whatever you need to look good. If it's working for you, it doesn't matter at all that it might not be working for someone else.

[bndniron4evrgal]

Reason being that test aromatizes in women just like it does in men. In pre-menopausal women with functional ovaries and with the body constantly trying to get back into a homeostatic state, you can only imagine what the increase in estrogen is like in a women on test who is not conscious of the fact that test actually does aromatize, contrary to what most of us have been conditioned to believe.

what about POST-MENOPAUSAL WOMEN (full hysterectomy inc. ovaries)??

[Sistersteel]

Let's see if I have this right:

Any anabolics that aromatise to oestrogen are going to stop oestrogen production because of negative feedback.

Anti-oestrogens and SERMS are probably not going to stop endogenous (our own natural) oestrogen production to the same extent.

If women are going to run test, then they could use some form of PCT like Clomid, which is going to increase LH/FSH production, which in turn is going to get the ovaries to start to produce oestrogen again.

If you want to understand aromatization better and the rate at which your body is undergoing this conversion, you can measure estradiol concentration in the blood through specific blood work. Estradiol is very strong at LH/FSH suppression, so hypothetically speaking, clomid is a good option to jump start estrogen production. That isa correct analogy. While running a non armotazing drug cycle, even though your natural test production is decreased by a very insignifacnt amount, estradiol is low because endogenous production is affected. We know that most of our estrogen is produced in the ovaries (which is why these theories are specific to menstruating women), and so is estradiol. If estradiol is increased in a female, logically you will have a high degree of aromatization in the body due to the fact that the natural estradiol production in the ovaries is lowered while on aromatizing compounds.

SERMs do not inhibit out natural estrogen production. They simply bind to the receptors. That increases the concentration of free flowing estrogens in blood plasma while on armoatizing aas. An aromatize Inhibitor like Adex should be sufficient to control this problem while on a reasonable dose of supplemental testosterone. But then you have to deal with joint aches if you run it for too long, so smart cycling is key at knowing where, how and when to introduce any compound into your arsenal, to reap maximum benefits with minimum "collateral damage", so to speak.

SS

[Sistersteel]

I used to be opposed to 'straight test' use for (most) women.

Now, though, I say you should take whatever you need to look good. If it's working for you, it doesn't matter at all that it might not be working for someone else.

I personally do not think that is a good approach to things, Tre. You have to place your health before your looks always.. I am sure that is easier said than done coming from someone who does not compete in bodybuilding, such as myself. But I understand the demands and the pressures the sport places on competitors. Then again, it should be about longevity and long term goals and not instant gratification. The biggest problem most women face in this industry is impatience. I am guilty of wanting quick results too, but I have made choices in my life that have forced me to take a step back and slow things down. I find I can appreciate the jounrey a lot more now honestly.

[Sistersteel]

what about POST-MENOPAUSAL WOMEN (full hysterectomy inc. ovaries)??

Oh that is an entirely different ballgame. You guys are blessed. lol

[heavyiron]

Interesting thread, thank you to all the ladies.

[Tatyana]

what about POST-MENOPAUSAL WOMEN (full hysterectomy inc. ovaries)??

Your adrenal cortex is still going to make testosterone. It is also responsible for some oestrogen as well.

As you no longer are producing large amounts of oestrogen, I would think that the steroid hormones from your adrenal glands would take precidence, that is, if you are not on HRT.

I am going to cut and paste a science bit, let me know if it is comprehensible.




The two steroids produced in greatest quantities by the adrenal cortex, DHEA and its sulfate have an ill-defined role in normal physiology.

Together with androstenedione, they are generally termed ‘weak androgens’ and have a much lower affinity for the androgen receptor than testosterone.

These adrenal androgens are, however, converted peripherally to the more active testosterone.

In males, the amount released from the adrenal glands and converted to testosterone is physiologically insignificant compared to the amount secreted by the testes but, in females, adrenal-derived testosterone is important in maintaining normal pubic and axillary hair.


After the menopause, adrenal androgens may also be an important source of estradiol, again due to peripheral conversion. Adrenal androgen hypersecretion does not cause any clinical signs in adult males but is detectable in females by signs of hirsutism and masculinization.

[Tatyana]

If you want to understand aromatization better and the rate at which your body is undergoing this conversion, you can measure estradiol concentration in the blood through specific blood work.

Estradiol is very strong at LH/FSH suppression, so hypothetically speaking, clomid is a good option to jump start estrogen production. That isa correct analogy. While running a non armotazing drug cycle, even though your natural test production is decreased by a very insignifacnt amount, estradiol is low because endogenous production is affected. We know that most of our estrogen is produced in the ovaries (which is why these theories are specific to menstruating women), and so is estradiol. If estradiol is increased in a female, logically you will have a high degree of aromatization in the body due to the fact that the natural estradiol production in the ovaries is lowered while on aromatizing compounds.


SERMs do not inhibit out natural estrogen production. They simply bind to the receptors. That increases the concentration of free flowing estrogens in blood plasma while on armoatizing aas. An aromatize Inhibitor like Adex should be sufficient to control this problem while on a reasonable dose of supplemental testosterone. But then you have to deal with joint aches if you run it for too long, so smart cycling is key at knowing where, how and when to introduce any compound into your arsenal, to reap maximum benefits with minimum "collateral damage", so to speak.

SS

It would be fascinating to see some blood work of a woman while on some form of steroids, it must be out there as they have used them medically.

You would expect some of the same things that are found in men, lower LH/FSH, higher test levels, but what oestrogen and progesterone would do?...

The issue with women getting blood to monitor their hormones (pre-menopausal) is that they fluctuate so bloody much during the month, so if you want to see what is happening, it really has to be the same time after your period each time you have bloods done (typically 3-4 days or 21 days).


Have you ever used hCG for PCT? Or have you used one of the synthetic forms of LH/FSH?

[Sistersteel]

I personally do not like messing with fertility drugs. I have found over the counter estrovene to work just fine to help me bounce back.