Full ROM vs. 1/4 reps & 1/2 reps

[Matt Meinrod]

I think outside of synthol and questionable judging at any Kevin English show, rep range seems to be the most debatable topic on the boards.

What makes full ROM better than half reps or quarter reps? I'm not talking about bouncing or swinging or using other ballistic motions that are obviously shitty form, but the actual length of range of motion in a controlled manner shouldn't matter - but it does to a LOT of people.

Full ROM vs. 1/4 or 1/2 reps is NOT a black and white topic. To say every muscle should be trained the same is ridiculous. Ask any pro and they'll tell you they like higher reps on legs or slower reps on chest, etc...(those are examples not written in stone). Point being is some bodyparts responds with full ROM and others do not. So when I see Jason Huh for example doing 1/4 rep single arm tricep extensions and the stack moves 3 inches each rep to say it is worthless is kind of silly. His arms speak for themselves not to mention not locking out has saved his elbows from tendonitis or other tears.

Chest is another bodypart that doesn't require lockout. Once it goes past half way up tension shifts to the elbows and triceps and away from the chest.

Point being: Some muscles should be Full some should be 1/4 or 1/2....doesn't have to be black and white.

[TheABomb]

Well, for certain exercises like the squat, not only are full reps far more effective, but actually safer too. It should be common sense, the quarter squat isn't even slightly difficult and the full squat is one of the most brutal exercises in the world. Should be common sense which one works better.

[Cooker]

Great topic.

One thing to keep in mind, still using Jason Huh as an example, although that is what may work for him now we don't know what his range of motion was like to build his physique to the level he is at now. Maybe that has always been his ROM on single arm tri extensions, maybe not?

I agree completely, this is not a topic that can be viewed in purely black and white.

[Matt Meinrod]

Dead on about the squats!

Think about Rack Pulls - that's essentially become a universally accepted exercise, but is nothing more than a partial deadlift. Why is that ok, but short range of motion on a bench press is considered "cheating" or "shitty form"....don't get me wrong, it's not poor form in my opinion, but to a lot of novices or beginners out there, they cry "foul" every time a lifter doesn't do it exactly the way their local guru or sadly parent taught them to.

I think most people forget that TENSION is the #1 factor in stimulating the muscle. Once tension (not necessarily constant tension) is removed from the muscle, stress then goes to assisting muscle groups, tendons, bones, and ligaments. Tension needs to be placed on the concentric and eccentric phase of the the lift, but the length of the movement is generally non-important. Some muscle will require a greater stretch (back movements by in large) in order to get optimal tension on both the A and B of the lift.

[machine]

I completely agree. There is no magic formula or one size fits all training program. I've seen some people do some pretty strange things, if they didnt have an insane body I would probably laugh at them

[Johnny Bravo]

Well, for certain exercises like the squat, not only are full reps far more effective, but actually safer too. It should be common sense, the quarter squat isn't even slightly difficult and the full squat is one of the most brutal exercises in the world. Should be common sense which one works better.

That REALLY depends on what quarter of the ROM you are doing.

[Dee]

depends on the exercise, how you are training, and the joints involved.....I used to think doing shorter range shoulder presses and chest presses were somewhat stupid, but after tearing my rotator, i now find there isnt anything wrong with it....i find doing full ROM with lighter weights and then shortening it up with the heavier weights still gets the job done (with the rationale falling within the TUT argument)...i do very light weight flyes for full ROM and then shorten most pressing movements...with squats and deads, dont really see how shortening ROM would work.....its about finding whats comfortable for you.

[Idar]

That REALLY depends on what quarter of the ROM you are doing.

Right on! Man, lower the weight and do quarter reps in the midrange to lower. Your legs will be pumped out of this world due to the constant tension.

[D_T]

I don't think you have to lock out every rep but clearly - 12 reps of curls with 120 degrees range of motion is twice as much work as 12 reps with 60 degrees of motion. More time under tension = more growth....but that's just me.

I train alone 95% of the time so in lieu of forced reps I do partials when I can no longer do fulls.

[Johnny Bravo]

I don't think you have to lock out every rep but clearly - 12 reps of curls with 120 degrees range of motion is twice as much work as 12 reps with 60 degrees of motion. More time under tension = more growth....but that's just me.

^^ If both sets are being done with the same rep speed.
Not trying to nitpick here but TUT is not the only factor to think of regarding muscle growth. The weight being used is another important aspect

[TheABomb]

That REALLY depends on what quarter of the ROM you are doing.

Seriously bro, you know what I'm talking about. For ever 200 guys in the gym that do1/4 squats at the TOP of the ROM, there's 1 going doing it at the bottom.

[D_T]

^^ If both sets are being done with the same rep speed.
Not trying to nitpick here but TUT is not the only factor to think of regarding muscle growth. The weight being used is another important aspect

If you're doing twice the motion in double the time then TuT is doubled.
If you're doing twice the motion in the same time then force goes up and the muscle will still grow more.

[Matt Meinrod]

Well you guys are forgetting that the tension isn't the same at all points of the lift. Which is why partial reps at their maximal tension points is where the movement is most effective. Any lockout point of a lift removes tension off the muscle.

[AVBG]

Well you guys are forgetting that the tension isn't the same at all points of the lift. Which is why partial reps at their maximal tension points is where the movement is most effective. Any lockout point of a lift removes tension off the muscle.

(no wonder you look like you do) you make some intelligent points borne out of your own experiences.

[Hoss06]

I think 3/4 lockout on chest and triceps has Its benefits. Constant tension and less stress on the elbows.
Squats/leg presses/leg curls/leg ext those are a given full ROM. Same goes for bicep curls. All the way down and ALL the way up...
Good topic

[Matt Meinrod]

I think 3/4 lockout on chest and triceps has Its benefits. Constant tension and less stress on the elbows.
Squats/leg presses/leg curls/leg ext those are a given full ROM. Same goes for bicep curls. All the way down and ALL the way up...
Good topic

What about a cost to benefit analysis on squats? Locking out 495 after each rep does put unnecessary stress on the knees, vertebrae, and lumbar...I'm a taller guy so I don't even dick around with free weight squats anymore, but on various hack machines the sweet spot is never in a lockout position unless specifcally targeting a peak contraction in the glutes and quads (which doesn't require a heavy load of weight in order to acheive).

Again, bodybuilding -- in order to be successful is about longevity and although some exercise might be best done in full range of motion at what cost are we willing to give up? Loss of cartilage, tenonitis, etc...often times finding a better way to stimulate the muscle without the high risk of joint or muscle damage is the way to go.

[Matt Meinrod]

(no wonder you look like you do) you make some intelligent points borne out of your own experiences.

Absolutely, trying to share some wisdom. Personally speaking I look at my arms, they're very good by all accounts, but over the past 4-5 years not a whole lot has changed about them in terms of size and shape. Yet each arm workout or back/biceps; delts/triceps workout I would keep hammering after them like a retarded drone. At the end of the day I'm left with little progress and sore elbows, so finally I say, "fuck it" and try some new things. I started half repping all my tricep, bicep, and chest exercises (minus fly variations). After 6 months my arms are up 1/2 inch and my joints feel rejuvenated. All because I decided to stop being stubborn and try something new. My pumps are not only bigger and better now, but they last longer too.

[Dre23]

I agree 100% with everything that Monster has written in here espcially his #17 post.

Good stuff man.

[Hoss06]

What about a cost to benefit analysis on squats? Locking out 495 after each rep does put unnecessary stress on the knees, vertebrae, and lumbar...I'm a taller guy so I don't even dick around with free weight squats anymore, but on various hack machines the sweet spot is never in a lockout position unless specifcally targeting a peak contraction in the glutes and quads (which doesn't require a heavy load of weight in order to acheive).

Again, bodybuilding -- in order to be successful is about longevity and although some exercise might be best done in full range of motion at what cost are we willing to give up? Loss of cartilage, tenonitis, etc...often times finding a better way to stimulate the muscle without the high risk of joint or muscle damage is the way to go.

I should have edited that before posting. I don't go all the way up if it can be avoided. Not only stress on the knees, but it takes the tension off the quads..same applies for leg press

[Matt Meinrod]

Fast forward to 1:46...this is a super hot Oksana Grishina video...if you can manage to skip forward check out her doing stiff leg dead lifts...her flawless physique tells the story on why even an exercise like SLDL is not required to be done in full ROM...you can clearly see the contraction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZikSkh9PTk

[joe d]

time under tension.

full rom to most i see involves joint strain lol.

i never had a problem growing or with muscle maturity by moving weight and letting it back with my muscles while keeping it from using my joints. i also never had any real injuries. my muscles where pumped and tight while training. stretching only after lifting then of course at other times of the day but never pre training.

[Matt Meinrod]

time under tension.

full rom to most i see involves joint strain lol.

i never had a problem growing or with muscle maturity by moving weight and letting it back with my muscles while keeping it from using my joints. i also never had any real injuries. my muscles where pumped and tight while training. stretching only after lifting then of course at other times of the day but never pre training.

You never had a sore joint? You never felt even a tweak? Not to be a dick (actually not at all) but to think that full ROM of motion with heavy weight 24/7 --- excluding off days --- is not bright. Anyone who trains that way will inevitably regret it in one way or another.

[Hoss06]

Monster-so for bicep curls (BB or DB) you don't go all the way down to the stretch then all the way up?

[Matt Meinrod]

Monster-so for bicep curls (BB or DB) you don't go all the way down to the stretch then all the way up?

Depends on the exercise within the muscle group...for biceps - again it's not black and white.

Hammer Curls - No
Cross Body Hammer Curls - No
Machine Preacher Curls - No
EZ Preacher Curls - YES FULL ROM
Reverse Curls - No
Standing BB Curls - No
Alt DB Curls - don't do them - no point - and twisting at the top - even more not point
Since Arm Machine Curls with Arm raised on pad (sorry for weak description) - YES -- FULL ROM!

The point is you have to be in tune with your body and the mind muscle connection. When you don't feel 100% tension any longer the lift is over. Write that down and never forget it. I'll repeat, once the lift starts to get easy return to your base position.

I figured this out on OHP and bench press...I'd lock out everything but just for the sake of locking out - then I realized it was easy to lock out and I never felt a contraction (key words - felt a contraction)

Same with Biceps -- once you go past 90 degrees but moreover 135 degrees the weight doesn't weight what it does at the bottom anymore -- hence making it easier -- return to base at this point. You ever do standing curls and get a crazy pump in your delts or upper back? Reason is tension goes off biceps and into other bodyparts once tension is gone.

MIND MUSCLE CONNECTION

[Hoss06]

I understand MMC, I just presumed that bicep curls should always be all the way down and all the way up (thigh to chest) to get the full stretch....
What's your .02 on shoulder presses? close grip bench press? DB chest press?

[Matt Meinrod]

Shoulder presses - what kind? DB? Not a huge fan you'll always grow out of your gym if you resemble a good bodybuilder. But barbell or machine are good examples...3/4 reps are great here. Again no full lockout because the tension/MMC is gone at this point, but 3/4 absolutely. And I say you'll grow out of your gym, but if you do them at the end of your workout you can last a lifetime even with 120's.

Close Grip BP - without question 1/2 rep or 3/4 rep range...full ROM = aching elbows after 10 years and doing cables from here on out

DB Chest - Full Range of Motion -- until you reach a sticking point and instead of ending the set continue to get 3-5 reps (if not more) doing partials - 1/2 or 3/4 reps...dumbbells are more about control then explostion. Eccentric (negative) are why dumbbells work. You can't be sloppy and do them with success (long term).

[Matt Meinrod]

I understand MMC, I just presumed that bicep curls should always be all the way down and all the way up (thigh to chest) to get the full stretch....
What's your .02 on shoulder presses? close grip bench press? DB chest press?

BB Curls - Thigh to Chest...you assume that is the best biceps exercise? Wrong...... - Pull Ups are the best biceps exercise...iso biceps exercises are weak by comparison. Treat each biceps iso exercise as an individual and then you'll reap the beneifts. Don't be black and white...

[Hoss06]

No sir. Never said that. As we all respond differently IMO preacher BB curls seem to work along with straight BB curls.
As for pull ups are you meaning underhand grip? Of course those work the bicep and some lat

[joe d]

You never had a sore joint? You never felt even a tweak? Not to be a dick (actually not at all) but to think that full ROM of motion with heavy weight 24/7 --- excluding off days --- is not bright. Anyone who trains that way will inevitably regret it in one way or another.

ive never had any real injuries. ive had minor aches and pains here and there but nothing that ever kept me from or altered my training that was caused by lifting. early on i was doing the full rom training because "its not a rep if you dont go all the way" and could tell by feel that it wasnt good to move heavy weight that far all the time. i stopped all together other than to rack weight because im real short lol. i developed just fine and kept getting stronger.

[Provo82]

generally speaking i think we all here agree that controlling whatever weight and whateve range of motion were doing is the most important thing. that being said i think partials all have there place. for example maybe your bench pressing and hitting a double drop set hitting partials as part of the drop set might put an insane amount of blood in the muscle or might work a diff part of the muscle thus spurring some growth.