FemChem Q&A with Leigh Penman

**Sistersteel** · 04-28-2009, 12:09 PM

Leigh and myself have had some very interesting exchanges in the past few days. We've decided that a Q&A thread, exclusive to our Fem Chem forum was long overdue. So here it is ladies.

Through this collaboration of efforts between Leigh and myself, we aim at addressing all concerns with medically supported arguments, as well as first hand experience in a thread that encompasses the most extensively researched and thoroughly discussed topics on female AAS usage that the online bodybuilding community has ever seen.

SS

**Sistersteel** · 04-28-2009, 06:39 PM

I would like to propose a first discussion that is aimed at establishing a link between endometriosis and estrogen dominance with an expectancy to lead to highlighting the importance of my previously supported argument on the benefits of running AIs while on aromatizing compounds. I am proposing a case study that will examine the interplay of the different variables pertaining to this subject, in an effort to provide you ladies with a better understanding of the risks involved in excess estrogen production. Our primary focus will be a more thorough examination of the more complex underlying issues that result from such an excess if left untreated and hopefully everyone’s contributions will offer new variables and questions for further research and discussion.
Leigh, Tat, ladies, let’s hear it.

SS

**Sistersteel** · 04-28-2009, 11:56 PM

First, I would like to list the symptoms women experience as a result of hormonal imbalances and high estrogen overload. However, in many cases we are faced with the problem of an estrogen overload going undetected due to the fact that most of the following symptoms are a very common occurrence in most women. But at least you girls KNOW what to look for.

PMS, Migraines, Mood Swings, Cramps, Uterine Fibroids, Depression, Unexplained Weight Gain, Fatigue, Osteoporosis, Insomnia, Allergies, Memory Loss, Acne, Hot Flashes, Thinning Hair, Irregular Periods, Breat tenderness, miscarriage, low sex drive, high blood pressure, facial hair, inlfammation......these are the ones that presently come to mind. Please feel free to add any symptoms I may have omitted.

Post menopausal ladies, please lend me your eyes, ears and your undivided attention. This might come as a shock to most of you, but
follow me here for a moment please.

Menopause is often thought of as a time of declining estrogen, correct?

BUT it is actually common for women to experience surges of abnormally high estrogen levels in the menopausal years as well as earlier in life.
This misconception has led many millions of women to engage in HRT to restore lost estrogen, in an effort to address the list of conditions I posted above.

This additional estrogen may only worsen problems and possible set the stage for even bigger, and possibly fatal issues.

Through this observation, we conclude that an estrogen overload can be the problem of pre and post menopausal women alike. So no one need feel excluded from this discussion!

Is everyone following me thus far? Would anyone like to propose or suggest something before I proceed?

SS

**~gymdiva~** · 04-29-2009, 12:05 AM

following you loud and clear as you have just described my entire 2008...

**Sistersteel** · 04-29-2009, 12:23 AM

Originally Posted by ~gymdiva~

following you loud and clear as you have just described my entire 2008...

Precisely the type of feedback I was looking for! An actual live specimen!
lol

Your experience can potentially benefit this discussion gymdiva! Care to elaborate on what symptoms you were experiencing and the degree of discomfort you experienced as a result? Did you first notice the problem pre or post cycle? pre or post comp? both phases perhaps?

Did you seek medical advice at the time? Did the symptoms subside after a while?

Please shed some light on your experience.

SS

**Carolyn Bryant** · 04-29-2009, 12:31 AM

Well, I live the life so I'm going to be all ears for this one.

**Sistersteel** · 04-29-2009, 12:40 AM

Originally Posted by Carolyn Bryant

Well, I live the life so I'm going to be all ears for this one.

Hey mama! Glad you could drop by. I know you mentioned dealing with endometriosis in another thread, if my memory serves me correctly. I would love it if you could share the symptoms you've experienced with me. I would also like to hear your opinion on whether or not bodybuilding has contributed to this ailment. Or was it a preexisting condition? Do you think bodybuilding has in any way exacerbated the symptoms you've been unfortunate to have had to deal with?

SS

**~gymdiva~** · 04-29-2009, 12:43 AM

post cycle and post comp since they came together...I was actually ok in terms of symptoms for a while, however, I was having no monthly cycle...approximately 14mo after the last time I remembered having one it kicked in again...seemed ok for a while but then it just went haywire...terrible pms symptoms, terrible cramping...one month I thought I was certifiable b/c I went from one mood to another so fast I made my coworkers' heads spin...

now over time it's evened out some...the pms symptoms haven't but the actual flow time has...like now for instance! hahaha...I just started up and I had the now common 7-8lb water gain, sweats/chills, some mood changes about 4ish days out...then all day yesterday I had the worst headache that no amount of drugs could take away, and then today I was nauseous...but as it actually got going I have no cramps...and this is what it's turned into...actual cycle, not so bad-events leading up to it, slightly nightmare-ish...

now, about seeking help...I did try seeing my gyn in january...wish I still had access to all of this on MD b/c I posted about it behind the scenes but I really thought something else must have been going on since it had been so long since I had competed and/or taken anything beyond 5mg of var...well about 10yrs ago I had experienced some pains and it was finally set as a dual diagnosis of IBS and endometriosis...now I was without insurance so no endoscopy was performed to confirm the endo...I was put on a different kind of BC and changed my diet a little and the pain seemed to go away...I had just turned 21 and nowhere close to considering competing so the BC didn't bother me...

well somewhere along the lines a few years later I came off the BC, mainly b/c I was tired of paying for something I wasn't using (ie, I wasn't gettin' any!) and since I was still sans insurance it was $60/mo I could save...well I came off of it and immediately dropped 10lbs...but guess what, none of those old symptoms came back...no pains, no weird cycles, no heavy bleeding...I thought well, maybe it's b/c I'm older now (think I was 25 or 26)...

so back to the january visit...well the doc and nurse practitioner I see diagnosed me with endo again and immediately was like, you need to be on BC...I told them I didn't want to be on BC and I gotta tell you, I was not treated with the warmest of responses...I did ask why not do an endo to confirm the diagnosis since I had insurance and they said it wasn't needed and yeah they could clean it up but that it'd come back without being on some kind of BC therapy...so I tried asking about something along the lines of low dose nolva to keep estrogen levels down and the doc goes, um, that's used for breast cancer patients...YES I know that! but guess what, I successfully was given a skin cancer treatment for plantar's warts on my feet once so clearly drugs can be used in criss-crossing manners...

now, I mainly wanted an explanation about why something like that isn't plausible...or an answer on whether it had even been looked at by any study anywhere...but nope, shut out cold...and forget anything like a low dose of test! nope, I needed a generic version of seasonale b/c it'd bring me all the same symptoms I already had plus weight gain that may or may not work in six months...um, no thank you...

now one thing I found interesting in all of this was that when I had an ultrasound done it was discovered I had a titled uterus...why is that important? well b/c some of the symptoms of that mimic endo...and I guess I got a little ill that they were so ready to throw drugs at it that I clearly stated I did not want when it could just simply be my anatomy...

I do not know exact numbers on blood work unfortunately but I do remember my doc telling me once that should I not want babies, well, I better be on something and have him double bag it

**Carolyn Bryant** · 04-29-2009, 12:45 AM

The info doctors have at their disposal is shaddy in my humble opinion. I asked one of the OB-GYNs at work to help explain why testosterone is so taboo for women and all she could say was good point. She really didn't know. She believes it could help. But she also said too much testosterone sets your body up to rot. I take Danazol. It's not for everyone and it is not high on the doctor's list. But it has its benefits for bodybuilders. Many doctors that I asked about it during my research had either not heard of it or had not prescribed it in years.

Are you familiar with it, SS? What do you think of it?

**Carolyn Bryant** · 04-29-2009, 01:07 AM

I was born with hirstuism. At that time they told my mom that hairy little girls were prone to reproductive disturbances. I started menses at 9 or 10. Went from no cup to a B cup. Hips and booty like a grown woman. By 12 all hell broke lose during mentrual time, despite being an athlete. I had a laporoscopy at 26 that seemed to help for a few years. Then I got on BC till I started bodybuilding at 33. It helped me because I had fewer periods. I ditched the birth control and switched to Primobolan then tried Yaz ( I was on BCs for the 07 Nats in the best condition of my life) now Danazol. I blew up like a can of biscuts when I came off that. I didn't talk to my doctor when I did, but still I don't recall her telling me I would need an anti-estro. 10mg of Tamoxifen is doing the trick. I feel for ya Gymdiva. But I never had anything more than bad periods and severe clotting.

**Carolyn Bryant** · 04-29-2009, 01:17 AM

I'm slow reading your post Gymdiva. I heard the same thing. I have a tilted uterus. My doctor suggested I have a baby after my laproscopy. I have a dear client who has 3 kids and that didn't help at all. She is now considering yanking dat shyt out but mainly because uterine cancer runs in her family.

**~gymdiva~** · 04-29-2009, 01:21 AM

I asked about removal, too, and they said absolutely not, not at 31...I have no interest in kids so I wasn't too worried about that issue...but I looked at it as more of a last ditch thing...although after they described the whole "suppressive therapy" via BC I was like hmmm, yeah all my symptoms now plus weight gain? surgery sounds so much simpler...

oh wait I did think of one kinda funny way to shut a doc up...he was doing that whole, well, I did a tubal on a woman who was x-age and she swore she never wanted kids and then 6mo later she's back hoping it can be reversed b/c she'd met someone...well that was met with me saying the following. "I've always felt if something happened and couldn't have kids of mine own that I would adopt...but I was engaged once to a guy with two kids and have experienced the feeling of having those kids taken out of my life w/o my permission so um, I'm good on the kids thing, but thanks"

**Sistersteel** · 04-29-2009, 02:47 AM

Originally Posted by ~gymdiva~

post cycle and post comp since they came together...I was actually ok in terms of symptoms for a while, however, I was having no monthly cycle...approximately 14mo after the last time I remembered having one it kicked in again...seemed ok for a while but then it just went haywire...terrible pms symptoms, terrible cramping...one month I thought I was certifiable b/c I went from one mood to another so fast I made my coworkers' heads spin...

now over time it's evened out some...the pms symptoms haven't but the actual flow time has...like now for instance! hahaha...I just started up and I had the now common 7-8lb water gain, sweats/chills, some mood changes about 4ish days out...then all day yesterday I had the worst headache that no amount of drugs could take away, and then today I was nauseous...but as it actually got going I have no cramps...and this is what it's turned into...actual cycle, not so bad-events leading up to it, slightly nightmare-ish...

now, about seeking help...I did try seeing my gyn in january...wish I still had access to all of this on MD b/c I posted about it behind the scenes but I really thought something else must have been going on since it had been so long since I had competed and/or taken anything beyond 5mg of var...well about 10yrs ago I had experienced some pains and it was finally set as a dual diagnosis of IBS and endometriosis...now I was without insurance so no endoscopy was performed to confirm the endo...I was put on a different kind of BC and changed my diet a little and the pain seemed to go away...I had just turned 21 and nowhere close to considering competing so the BC didn't bother me...

well somewhere along the lines a few years later I came off the BC, mainly b/c I was tired of paying for something I wasn't using (ie, I wasn't gettin' any!) and since I was still sans insurance it was $60/mo I could save...well I came off of it and immediately dropped 10lbs...but guess what, none of those old symptoms came back...no pains, no weird cycles, no heavy bleeding...I thought well, maybe it's b/c I'm older now (think I was 25 or 26)...

so back to the january visit...well the doc and nurse practitioner I see diagnosed me with endo again and immediately was like, you need to be on BC...I told them I didn't want to be on BC and I gotta tell you, I was not treated with the warmest of responses...I did ask why not do an endo to confirm the diagnosis since I had insurance and they said it wasn't needed and yeah they could clean it up but that it'd come back without being on some kind of BC therapy...so I tried asking about something along the lines of low dose nolva to keep estrogen levels down and the doc goes, um, that's used for breast cancer patients...YES I know that! but guess what, I successfully was given a skin cancer treatment for plantar's warts on my feet once so clearly drugs can be used in criss-crossing manners...

now, I mainly wanted an explanation about why something like that isn't plausible...or an answer on whether it had even been looked at by any study anywhere...but nope, shut out cold...and forget anything like a low dose of test! nope, I needed a generic version of seasonale b/c it'd bring me all the same symptoms I already had plus weight gain that may or may not work in six months...um, no thank you...

now one thing I found interesting in all of this was that when I had an ultrasound done it was discovered I had a titled uterus...why is that important? well b/c some of the symptoms of that mimic endo...and I guess I got a little ill that they were so ready to throw drugs at it that I clearly stated I did not want when it could just simply be my anatomy...

I do not know exact numbers on blood work unfortunately but I do remember my doc telling me once that should I not want babies, well, I better be on something and have him double bag it

Traditional treatment of endo usually involves surgery. However, hormonal manipulation is a far more common form of therapy that attempts to mimic either menopause or pregnancy which can often provide relief of symptoms. Certain drugs work by creating a low- estrogen menopause-like environment in which the endo becomes dormant. Similarly, administration of continuous estrogen and progesterone with BC pills to mimic pregnancy may relieve symptoms. This is quite an effective treatment for many women.

Now granted you felt your symptoms alleviated once you discontinued the use of the BC. But, unfortunately, the discomfort and pain would have returned rather quickly under normal circumstances. In your case, symptoms were probably lying dormant and manifested themselves differently due to the various hormonal changes you had undergone as a result of your AAS use. So I see the logic in your recent diagnosis with endo considering this was an already preexisting condition. And as for your suggestion to use Nolva as a remedy, well that was a bad idea. Although Nolva reduces the risk of breast cancer, it actually increases the possibility of developing endo cancer. Thank God you made no mention of test. Lol!

The one thing that concerns me is your retroverted uterus. A titled uterus is not necessarily anatomical. Possibly genetic, but highly unlikely in your case given your history. An abdominal ultrasound and pelvic exam should have diagnosed the condition. Did you get a rectovaginal exam as well to rule out the possibility of a pelvic tumor? A uterus can tilt as a result of endo… among other causes including pregnancy, menopause and pelvic inflammatory disease etc. But my point is, the similarity in symptoms between endo and a retro uterus is not a valid reason to dismiss this issue as genetic without getting a second opinion. This condition can have dangerous consequences on your reproductive organs and overall health.

That was an excellent contribution to this discussion, thank you diva!

SS

**Sistersteel** · 04-29-2009, 03:22 AM

Originally Posted by Carolyn Bryant

The info doctors have at their disposal is shaddy in my humble opinion. I asked one of the OB-GYNs at work to help explain why testosterone is so taboo for women and all she could say was good point. She really didn't know. She believes it could help. But she also said too much testosterone sets your body up to rot. I take Danazol. It's not for everyone and it is not high on the doctor's list. But it has its benefits for bodybuilders. Many doctors that I asked about it during my research had either not heard of it or had not prescribed it in years.

Are you familiar with it, SS? What do you think of it?

Danazol is a derivative of a synthetic analog of testosterone. Most doctors are not familiar with the drug because it was discontinued and replaced by GnRH agonists as a more suitable form of therapy. Reason being that despite the efficacy of the drug for treating endo, its use was limited by masculinizing sides that were a result of an increase in androgens. Did you know that Danazol actually caused hirsutism? You mentioned being born with it, so I can imagine the condition being exacerbated tenfold.

The primary use of Danazol is as an AI, believe it or not. It slows down the natural production of testosterone and is used by bodybuilders to prevent the aromatization of certain hormones.

Notice ladies how your experiences and contributions have already begun to link us back to my initial post where I proposed this topic as a first discussion. We are already establishing a pattern here as to why AIs are important and necessary to include as part of any cycle/hormonal therapy that includes aromatizing compounds like test.

SS

**~gymdiva~** · 04-29-2009, 06:20 AM

I'll write more when I get on the computer (currently on the phone) but I was off BC for a solid two years if not longer before I ever touched anything related to aas and never once did I have anything irregular...I think part of what also bothered me was looking back on it that earlier round when I was 20-21 a lot of my stuff seemed to be more GI related and now that I eat gluten free and have eliminated some other stuff that pain issue has all but disappeared...and since no lap was ever done (and they refused to do one even at my request b/c I wanted confirmation) I have never been convinced that it's 100% endo...as for the tilting for a loooong while I've noticed (oy, tmi alert) that tampons went in funny but never in the 15yrs of seeing a gyn has anyone said anything to me...I just figured I must be imagining it...but the ultrasound did show it was curved and apparently one ovary is hiding behind it instead of being to the side...and Carolyn mentioned something I was told, too, which was having a kid may straighten it but um, I'm not having a kid to find out!