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Thread: anavar, primo and winny
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04-16-2009, 08:04 AM #1
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anavar, primo and winny
i thought i would list the most common compounds for women and stick this thread I copied and pasted this from isteroids.com
Anavar ( Oxandrolone )
Anavar (oxandrolone) is not very toxic, not very androgenic, mildly anabolic, and pretty mild on the body's HPTA (Hypothalamic-Testicular-Pituitary-Axis). Those are its 4 major points, and I'd like to examine each one a bit further; as usual, gym-rumors and internet conjecture has made this steroid the subject of many misconceptions.
Anavar Dosage
The following dose pertains to men only: Due to its being a mild steroid in every sense of the word, high amounts of Anavar dosage are needed. It binds reasonably well to the AR, but pretty high doses are still needed and I would never suggest doing less than 20mgs/day. In fact, 20-80mgs are needed to start halting AIDS related wasting(1) and recovering weight for burn victims (2) so that's the range I'd recommend keeping your dosages in concerning this compound. Personally, I'd use 100mgs/day if I were ever going to try this stuff. Any less than this amount (20-100mgs) would be a waste. For women, however, I think 2.5-10mgs/day would suffice. Virilation is not a concern with this compound, as it is only very mildly androgenic (3). Water retention is also virtually nil with it.
Although Anavar is an oral steroid, and has been alpha-alkylated to survive oral ingestion and the first pass through the liver, it's still relatively mild in that respect too..., the unique chemical configuration of oxandrolone both confers a resistance to liver metabolism as well as noticable anabolic activity. It would also appear that Anavar appears not to exhibit the serious hepatotoxic effects (jaundice, cholestatic hepatitis, peliosis hepatis, hyperplasias and neoplasms) typically attributed to the C17alpha-alkylated AASs. (17) Anavar has even been used successfully in some studies to heal cutaneous wounds (7), or to improve respiratory function (18). Both of these novel properties could make it a good choice for in-season use for boxers, Mixed Martial Arts competitors, and other such athletes.
Anavar and Fat Loss
Now here's some interesting stuff for anyone interested primarily in the fat loss properties of this stuff: Anavar may be what we'd call a "fat-burning steroid". Abdominal and visceral fat were both reduced in one study when subjects in the low/normal natural testosterone range used anavar (4). In another study, appendicular, total, and trunk fat were all reduced with a relatively small dose of 20mgs/day (8), and no exercise. In addition, weight gained with anavar may be nearly permanent too. It might not be much, but you'll stand a good chance of keeping most of it. In one study, subjects maintained their weight (re)gains from anavar for at least 6 months after cessation (2)! Concomitantly, in another study, Twelve weeks after discontinuing oxandrolone, 83% of the reductions in total, trunk, and extremity fat were also sustained (8)! If you're regaining weight, Anavar will give you nearly permanent gains, and if you are trying to lose fat (and you keep your diet in check), the fat lost with Anavar is basically looks to be nearly permanent. Check this chart out:
Absolute change in total fat mass (A) and trunk fat (B) by dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry from baseline to study week 12 (solid bars) and from baseline to study week 24 (open bars) in the placebo (n = 12) and the oxandrolone (n = 20) study groups. Values are means ' SE. *Significant decrease from baseline, P < 0.001. Significant difference between study groups for change in fat mass from 0 to 12 wk, P < 0.001. (15)(8)
Anavar Cycles
Keep in mind this is all without any Post-Cycle-Therapy, and without any change in diet or training! And although many of the studies done on oxandrolone use elderly men or young boys as the test subjects, some evidence suggests that many of the effects of oxandrolone are not age dependant (11). If you are following the typical "time on = time off" protocol, this means you can lose a bunch of fat during your time on, then keep most (if not all) of it off until your next cycle. That makes it a great drug for athletes who are drug tested and need to be clean for their season, yet need to keep the fat/weight they lost on their cycle off& I'm thinking about wrestlers and other weight-class athletes. Anavar is also the clear choice for a "spring-cutting" cycle, to look great at the beach and you can use it up until the summer starts, and then keep the fat off during the entire beach season!
Anavar is great for strength and cutting purposes, but not for bulking or a lot of weight gain. In other words, what I'm saying is that everything you gain will be solid. Personally I am leaning towards a theory which basically purports that the more solid your gains are, the more you'll keep (percentage-wise). It makes sense, when you think about it; people make a lot of weight gains on the highly water-retentive steroids (Dbol, A50, long estered testosteones, etc. ), but lose the greatest percentage of their gains afterwards. The same seems to be opposite for the steroids which cause less (or no) water retention (Anavar, Primo, Winstrol, etc& ).
So why else may you keep such a high proportion of what you gained on anavar? Well, I think it may be due to it's relatively light impact on the HPTA, which brings me to my final point; Anavar will not totally shut down your HPTA, especially at lower doses (unlike testosterone, which will eventually do this even at a 100mg dose, or deca which will do it with a single 100mg dose). This could be due, at least partly, to the fact that Anavar doesn't aromatize (convert to estrogen).
Serum testosterone, SHBG (Sex Hormone Binding Globulin), and LH (Leutinizing Hormone) will be slightly suppressed with low doses of Anavar, but less than with other compounds. FSH (Follicle Stimulating Hormone) , IGF1 (Insulin Like Growth Factor 1) and GH (Growth Hormone) will not be suppressed with a low dose of Anavar, but will actually be raised significantly (12)(13)(14) as you may have guessed, and LH will even experience a "rebound" effect when you stop using anavar (3) If your endocrine system and HPTA are funtioning normally, you should be able to use anavar with minimal insult to it, and can even keep most of your values within the normal range (5).
Thus, Anavar may even be ideal for use in bridges between cycles, (at very low doses under 10mgs perhaps), or as previously mentioned, for cutting/strength cycles at 50-100mgs.
How to Buy Anavar
It's relatively high cost is its only major drawback when you buy Anavar. Tablets can typically sell in Mexico or on the black market for up to a dollar (1USD) per 10mgs. Many black market dealers or Underground Labs, however offer capsules, liquid form (or in some cases, even their own brand of tabs) for substantially less money than the legit pharmaceutical versions, or even veterinary versions found overseas.
Anavar Profile
[17b-hydroxy-17a-methyl-2-oxa-5a-androstane-3-one]
Molecular Weight: 306.4442
Formula: C19H30O3
Melting Point: 235 238 Celcius
Manufacturer: BTG, SPA, Originally Searle (1964)
Effective dose: (Men)20-100mgs/day (or .125mg/kg~bdywt); (Women) 2.5-20mgs.day
Active Life: 8-12 hours
Detection Time: 3 weeks
Anabolic/Androgenic Ratio (Range): 322-630:24Last edited by SallyAnne; 04-16-2009 at 11:46 AM. Reason: clarifying that doses are for men
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04-16-2009, 08:06 AM #2
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Primobolan
(methenolone acetate)
Primobolan is one of those anabolic steroids which has a cult following not unlike the old original version of Masteron. Actually, as you can easily see from itīs anabolic:androgenic ratio below in the profile, itīs a pretty weak steroid but actually stronger(!) than Masteron in both regards. I donīt know anyone who has run both compounds at the same dose. We are probably justified in speculating that youīd probably get similar results from either of them, when you consider the fact that you are getting quite a bit less actual drug and more ester when you choose injectable Primobolan (which has the very long Enanthate ester attached to it) over Masteron (which has the very short propionate ester attached to it). In truth, I think part of the reason many Primobolan users have been disappointed is that they failed to use enough of it, for long enough. From itīs chemical structure and anabolic:androgenic rating, we can assume it is at least as effective as Masteron, on an equal Mg for mg basis. However, due to its ester (in the injectable version), it needs to be run for at least 12 weeks to see the full benefits from it.
The following dose pertains to men only: When you consider a measly dose of 400mgs of this stuff for 12 weeks will probably cost you around $500.Itīs easy to see why many people have tried to use less...and have been disappointed with their results. On the other hand, many competitive bodybuilders consider Primobolan indespensible to their pre-contest drud routine, and wouldnīt consider dieting without it. Anyway...I think the comparison to Masteron (another great precontest drug) is the best one we can make, with reference to expected gains and results.
I happen to be one of the few people who have used Drostanolone Enanthate (Masteron with the Enanthate ester attached) as well as Methenolone Enanthate (injectable Primobolan). I can tell you that the results from these two compounds, when ester and mg potency are the same, are in fact very similar.
Effects of Primobolan
Letīs flesh out some of the various general effects of Primobolan, before we get into the differences between the oral and injectable versions... One study performed on sheep involved administering 100mgs of Methenolone, and electronically stimulating their lats (electronic stimulation was used because they kept falling off the chin-up bars). Anyway, when compared with the lat muscles of sheep who didnīt receive Methenolone, the receiving group gained significantly more muscle mass as well as strength (1)(2). Itīs also has a relatively high affinity for binding to the AR, actually binding better than testosterone (3). This ability to strongly bind to the AR may be why Primobolan is such a good "fat burner." Strong AR binding has been positively correlated with lypolysis (fat-burning) (8).
In addition, as this steroid can actually aid in reducing breast tumors, no ancillary products need be considered for use with Primobolan, and in fact, it may actually be a useful ancillary agent in itīs own right, similar to Masteron. Also, just like Masteron, Primobolan has no propensity to aromatize (convert to estrogen). Since it doesnīt aromatize, alot of the side effects commonly associated with estrogen will not be of concern. This means water retention, acne, and gyno will be non-existent more or less. this lack of water retention combined with the slow and steady gains provided by Primo may help to explain why it has earned a reputation for creating quality muscle gains. This also helps to explain why it is so expensive. Although estrogenic sides are not a concern, hair loss still, remains a very real concern with Primobolan, as with many DHT-Derived steroids. Many primobolan fans always include Finasteride and Ketoconazole (shampoo) in cycles containing Primobolan.
Although nobody would ever suggest to use Primobolan as a bulking agent, itīs been studied as an agent to halt wasting and possibly reverse many of the adverse effects of anemia. It is a shocking failure in both areas, according to some of the case studies Iīve read, (5)(6) and this should come to no surprise to anyone. Anadrol reigns supreme in this area, and nobody in the athletic community would ever compare those two drugs. However, Michael Mooney and many other respected doctors who work with AIDS patients have found sufficient evidence to claim that Primobolan is an immune enhancer and as such is very useful for AIDS patients (not that the FDA cares...Primobolan is still not approved for sale in the United States). AIDS patients arenīt really in need of Bulking Drugs, so an immune enhancer like Primo which will add small, quality gains in muscle is perfect for them. And since we arenīt even going to vaguely consider the use of Primobolan as a bulking agent, clearly this leaves us with considering it primarily for use in gaining and maintaining lean tissue. Itīs a great choice for this purpose, and many competitors have used it very successfully to retain muscle while on a calorie reduced diet. The reason Primo is so useful for this purpose is that one of its primary functions is to help your body retain nitrogen (7) at a greatly enhanced rate. The greater your nitrogen retention is, the more muscle you will build. In the case of using primo as a pre-contest drug, this nitrogen retention will help you retain muscle and ensure that your dieting preferentially favors fat loss over muscle loss.
Primobolan is a very unique steroid, as it is one of the few that comes in both an oral as well as an injectable version. I suppose Winstrol does also, but Primobolan actually has a different ester on the oral (acetate ) and injectable (Enanthate) versions. The oral version is one of the more interesting oral compounds Iīve looked into. For starters, itīs one of the few compounds available to athletes and bodybuilders which is both oral as well as non-17-alpha-alkylation. This alteration is (as Iīm sure you remember from other stuff Iīve written) what generally makes oral steroids survive their first pass through your liver, but also makes them Hepatoxic (Liver toxic). Well... oral Primo doesnīt have this feature, so it is very mild on your liver (actually it basically isnīt liver toxic at all), but also is largely destroyed by it, since 17 beta estrification and 1 alkylation is the method used to make this stuff orally available. Youīll need to take a lot of this stuff for it to be effective... 100mgs/day of the oral version is a safe estimate for reasonable gains& for women, you could get away with less; perhaps 25mgs/day. Even though the acetate ester has a 2-3 day active life, your liver will do some damage to oral primo, so every day dosing will still be necessary.
When men were given a 30-45mg dose of the oral version of Primo, they experienced a 15-65% decrease in gonadotropin levels (9). Remember, I said 100mgs is a good dose for gains... well, youīll also reduce your gonadotropin levels considerably. I have personally never understood why people recommend either oral or injectable Primobolan as a possible bridging compound for this reason... maybe at a too-low-to-do-anything dose of 10mgs it could be used as a bridge. And forget about using injectable Primo to bridge&
Hey... speaking about injectable Primo...
Iīve used this stuff at 200mgs/week and wasnīt very impressed with it. Generally, I think injectable primo needs to be used at a dose of at least 350mgs/week (100mgs/Every other Day), and preferably at a dose of 400-600mgs/week. I happen to like running it with testosterone propionate, but for convenience I would imagine most people would run it with Testosterone Enanthate, to keep dosing times the same (shooting it twice per week, in most cases).
Buying Primobolan
The unfortunate truth about injectable Primo is that itīs a very expensive chemical to obtain, and that price is reflected in the cost to the average consumer. Ten dollars per 1ml/100mg ampule is not unheard of, and Iīve seen it go for more. This is, of course, absurd. As if thatīs not enough, this is also the most commonly counterfeited steroids on the black market. I recommend buying Primobolan (either the oral or injectable) from a respected Underground lab instead of trying to play a game of "spot the fake steroid" in Mexico or Europe. The underground versions should cost between $5-7 for 100mgs of Methenolone and I wouldnīt really consider paying more for it, although I have seen the British Dragon version of this product priced up to $20/ml.
Primobolan Profile
(Methenolone)
(Oral Version is + Acetate Ester)
(Injectable Version is + Enanthate Ester)
[17beta-Hydroxy-1-methyl-5alpha-androst-1-en-3-one]
Molecular weight of base: 302.4558
Molecular weight of Acetate ester: 60.0524
Molecular weight of Enanthate ester: 130.1864
Formula: C20H30O2
Melting Point:
Manufacturer: Schering
Effective dose(oral): (Men)50-100mgs/day; (Women) 10-25mgs/day
Effective dose (injectable): (Men) 350-600mgs/week; (Last edited by SallyAnne; 04-16-2009 at 11:48 AM. Reason: clarifying that dosage is for men
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04-16-2009, 08:07 AM #3
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Winstrol
(stanozolol)
Winstrol - Stanozolol is a very commonly used anabolic steroid for cutting cycles. While many people will attempt to use Dianabol or even Anadrol for cutting cycles, Iīve really never heard of anyone using Stanozolol for anything except a cutting cycle. Itīs a bit of a one-trick-pony in this respect. Let me repeat that: Stanozolol is a cutting drug. Not many people will argue for its use in a bulking cycle. Itīs certainly not a very effective compound for treating anemia (1) and thus, one could rightly assume that its role in bulking cycles is very limited. One novel use for Winstrol in any cycle (perhaps even bulking) would be to use it at a very limited dose, in order to lower SHBG. (2) One of the properties of Winstrol is itīs profound ability to lower SHBG much more than other steroids. A dose of .2mg/kg lowered SHBG significantly, which would in turn, raise the amount of free testosterone circulating in the body. As with 99% of steroids, however, itīs important to note that suppression of your natural hormonal levels will occur (though perhaps not to the extent that it will with many other steroids).(10) As with running virtually any compound, testosterone supplementation (i.e. running test in a cycle containing Winstrol) is warranted to avoid possible sexual dysfunction.
Winstrol & Stanozol Side Effects
Adding it to a heavy bulking cycle could be problematic, as Stanozolol is a 17aa compound, meaning that itīs been altered to endure the first pass through your liver without being destroyed. This makes it an orally active compound; so many people choose to take the pills which are available from both legitimate pharmaceutical companies as well as Underground Labs. Unfortunately, since it is 17aa, it is also liver toxic& in fact; Stanozolol has one of the worst hepatoxicity (mg for mg) of any steroid. This is the reason its addition to a bulking cycle could be problematic; generally a bulking cycle will be very heavy, dosage wise as well as toxicity-wise. It also has undesirable results on Cholesterol, and a mere 6mgs/day of Stanozolol can lower HDL by 33% and raise LDL by 29% (3). Cardiac Hypertrophy, even at lower doses could be a concern with Winstrol as well (4) Thus, many people limit their intake of Stanozolol to precontest or Summer-cutting types of cycles. Itīs generally accepted that due to the toxicity issues of Stanozolol, its use should be limited to 6 weeks& as with anything though, many people have run it for up to 12 weeks with no problems.
Winstrol & Stanozol Use Effects
The following dose pertains to men only: I ran Winstrol for about 3 months (12 weeks) at a dose of 100mgs Every Other Day (along with Test prop at 125mgs, every other day) and I suffered no ill-effects. My joints felt fine, and I can say that the only thing which was undesirable about that cycle was the injection pain. Generally, people report a "dry" and less lubricated feeling in their joints when on this drug (fluid retention is nil with Stanozolol), and also a "dry" overall look as regards contest prep. This could be due to a sort of "reverse-osmotic" effect...of course this is speculation, but people do look "dryer" on Winnie, and some even look dryer in the site they inject (more on this later). There are many conflicting reports on tendon strength and Stanozolol, even in medical journals. Some reports state that it weakens tendons, others that it strengthens them (and some speculation on the internet among many "guruīs" is that it strengthens them unevenly, leading to possible injury). For this reason, it may be best for athletes in explosive or high-impact sports to stay away from this drug. It has certainly been shown to be beneficial in some bone ailments induced by glucocorticoid induced stress (5) as well as having collagen producing properties (11), but with all of the anecdotal problems athletes have suffered with their joints while on Stanozolol, I simply can not recommend it with confidence to strength/speed athletes. I can say that personally, it was an effective compound for me and did not cause joint duress, but I can do without the discomfort of the shots, and have found other DHT based compounds to be far more effective (Masteron springs to mind).
As previously stated, this compound is unique, as it is available in both an oral form as well as an injectable form. Both forms contain the exact same compound, but injecting this compound (and yes, you can drink the injectable version, and no you shouldnīt) is superior to ingesting it orally in terms of nitrogen retention (6), and thus one would also imagine, for overall anabolism. Injecting it also has the advantage of avoiding the "first pass" through your liver, and thus places your liver under less stress.
Stanozolol (Winstrol) and Women
Stanozolol is also one of the few compounds that women can take safely, as itīs anabolic:androgenic ratio is quite skewed towards anabolism. Itīs generally accepted that women can tolerate around 5-10mgs a day of this compound. Men, on the other hand can dose themselves in the .5-1.5mg/kg range. I find 100mgs injected every other Day to be sufficient, but of course, even with the injectable form, every day dosing is optimal. I tend to favor DHT based compounds, and have enjoyed great success with a Winstrol/Masteron/Testosterone cycle, but I suspect that replacing the Masteron in that cycle with Trenbolone would prove more beneficial for most bodybuilders seeking to get ripped.
Although the anabolic ratio of this product is very high as compared to its androgenic actions, not many people report huge weight gains off of Stanozolol. Also, interestingly, it has a relatively weak AR binding ability (7), which is quite unusual for a "cutting" steroid. Many of the effects of this drug, as relates to building muscle, are probably from its very high protein synthesizing ability (6) (8). In addition, since this compound is derived from DHT, it tends to promote a very nice, "quality" look to the userīs muscles, with little or no water retention. Winstrol does not aromatize at any rate and has even been speculated to have anti-progestenic properties (in at least some cases, where it may "block" that receptor) (9). If one were to run ancillary compounds with Stanozolol, perhaps Tamoxifen would be appropriate for itīs beneficial effects on blood lipids, but an anti-estrogen (in itīs classic sense) would be unwarranted; proper post cycle therapy is still needed, though.
Most underground labs produce Winstrol at very reasonable prices, in both an oral as well as injectable form. Unfortunately, production value differs vastly due to the varying size of the Stanozolol powder used to make the injectable version; the finer the powder, the smaller gauge needle it will fit through, and the easier the injection will be. Of course the opposite is also true& In any case, you should be paying under $100 for a 10ml bottle of 100mg/ml concentration, and roughly the same for 100 or so 10mg tablets.
Winstrol Profile
Stanozolol
[17beta-Hydroxy-17-methyl-5alpha-androstano[3,2-c]pyrazole]
Molecular Weight: 344.5392
Molecular Formula: C22H36N2O
Melting Point:N/A
Manufacturer: (Originally) Sterling
Release Date:1962
Effective Dose(men): 50-100mgs/day
Effective Dose (women): 2.5-10mgs/day
Active Life:8hours
Detection Time:3 weeks (oral) to 9 weeks (injectable)
Androgenic/Anabolic Ratio:30:320
References:Last edited by SallyAnne; 04-16-2009 at 11:50 AM. Reason: clarifying that dosage is for men
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04-16-2009, 08:55 AM #4
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The examples of doages and reactions sited by the writer are based on a man, correct?
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04-16-2009, 11:45 AM #5
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Yes. Please disregard the dosage in all three descriptions.
You'll get different opinions on what is a safe/normal dosage for a woman, but my suggestion for beginners would be:
Anavar = 10 - 20mg ED
Winny = 10 - 20mg ED (oral)
Primo = 50 - 150mg EW
Obviously - the higher numbers are for people who are not first time AAS users ...and my recommendations are by no means the limit of what women have taken or should take. It is only a guideline for the 'safe' zone. Sides and gains vary greatly from woman to woman, so it is important that you know your body.
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04-16-2009, 04:59 PM #6
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bodyweight is a huge factor as well.
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04-16-2009, 08:05 PM #7
Hmm...what about winny (depot)? I know before I was advised to do it every 4 days...however I like the consistency of every other day...looking at the every day range...mine is dosage is a lot lower...dang, good news! I thought mine was slightly high...
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04-16-2009, 09:16 PM #8
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are you taking yours orally?
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04-16-2009, 09:17 PM #9
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...also - there is nothing at all wrong with being conservative in dosage. I actually applaud you for doing so.
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04-16-2009, 09:23 PM #10
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04-16-2009, 09:24 PM #11
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I thought I read somewhere that adnrogrrl was injecting, which is why I asked.
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04-18-2009, 12:06 AM #12
Let's not forget NPP here as it promotes less water retention than Deca and the same effects as Primo.
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04-22-2009, 07:04 PM #13
I have a client that is interested in trying Var. She is 5'3" weighing 145-150, should they start at 5mg ED or would 10mg ED be fine? It is her first time ever to use any kind of anabolic. Also, should her daily dose be split and taken twice a day(i.e. 10mg ED taking 2 doses of 5mg)? Thanks for the help
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04-22-2009, 08:22 PM #14
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04-22-2009, 08:48 PM #15
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